| Author | Message | ||
  Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.87.170 |
SD has a post size limitation that wouldn't allow me to paste the entire article. Here's the link and 1/2 of the article. from the LA Weekly http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04 /20/features-lloyd.php | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 1-Arriviste Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.236.62.71 |
Nice article. Just one flaw. Overdubbing is not an ancient technology. | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Bobby, Maybe the author was 30 years old, in which case " music " is ancient technology. | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 216.23.183.2 |
I'll be sure and tell the writer... | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 1-Arriviste Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.236.62.71 |
Thats funny, but so true, Ralph!! You can go from 'c sharp" to a minor" in the "bling" of an eye!!! | ||
Ritchie (ritchie) 1-Arriviste Username: ritchie Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 62.254.0.32 |
Wasn't this in the last newsletter from the Carol Kaye fan club? ;) | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.115.73.50 |
Well this week here in L.A. the local rag has a story about L.A. Studio musicians and lo and behold one musician (guess who?) made a reference about playing bass on Bernadette (saying that Earl Palmer said that it was "their tracks" which, I have never heard from (in print anyway) Earl other than this persons claim. His book seems to refute any claims. I am (as always) referring to the original released recordings. Any other recordings done by Motown or anyone else is another matter. Plas Johnson did mention working with Motown acts but no titles and no controversy... Secondly one of the 4 or 5 seprate sections mentioned the Funk Brothers and the noteriety that they have enjoyed since SITSOM implying that the same thing should happen for the L.A. studio musicians. For the most part I agree but not to the extent that myth (Bernadette) should be mixed with fact. BTW, at least one name you rarely hear from the bassist featured in the article also appeared in the L.A. Studio story. Chuck Rainey for one is mentioned as are other bassists. The featured bassist (we all know who) was the only one talking about Motown in regards to records generally known to have been made in Detroit by the Funk Brothers (in this case Bernadette) ... That is not surprising but, they should realize that what they are talking about will probably keep them from getting other just credit that they may actually be due. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04 /20/features-lloyd.php the sections are left margin just below the top of the page under features. I suggest reading the whole thing so you can get an idea (from what I read) of what other L.A. musicians are (not) saying about Motown during the 1960's. One does mentions a Marvin Gaye album made in L.A. in 1973 that featured Jamerson and Wilton Felder on Bass but, no "Bernadette" that I saw anyway... except, well, you get the picture... (Message edited by BassLand on April 09, 2004) | ||
dvdmike (dvdmike) 1-Arriviste Username: dvdmike Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.253.218.89 |
There were some L.A. sessions in which some of those musicians played. Motown began recording out there around late '63. I believe Stevie Wonder's "Stevie At The Beach" was one of the first Motown LPs recorded in L.A. Why doesn't someone just pay a visit to the musician's union office there and get that information and stop all the arguments? Carol Kaye, Earl Palmer, Tommy Tedesco and the like probably played on some early L.A. Motown sessions, let's find out which ones and put this issue to bed. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.169.106.178 |
I am fully aware that L.A. session musicians worked for Motown at one time or another since 1963. I actually knew Tommy Tedesco and remember him as a nice guy. But I have no interest in "Stevie at the Beach". As a bassist who played since 1963 and who grew up on the innovative playing of Jamerson on records like Bernadette and I Was Made To Love Her (another bass performance claimed), it serves me no purpose to be concerned with "Stevie at the Beach" or Brenda Holloway's "Every Little Bit Hurts" as great as those recordings may gave been. If the award winning book and movie SITSOM and the fact that some of the musicians who played on "Bernadette" (right beside Jamerson) and all of the producers who produced that song are still with us and that didn't squelch the myths what makes you think a trip to Local 47 is going to solve anything? Motown released backing tracks to Bernadette with no vocals for the sound track to SITSOM. What more do we need in the way if evidence? Kaye has said that some book by a man named Wapensky on recording in L.A. was going to straighten this "controversy" out (in her favor), but it as of yet (since 2000?) has not been forthcoming. I for one am not holding my breath wainting for it especially since all the evidence I have seen or heard (with my own ears) indicated the truth a long time ago. BTW contracts from Detroit researched by Allan Slutsky were uncovered in preparation for a failed lawsuit instigated and subsequently dropped by Kaye because of SITSOM (the book), my Jamerson website (http://bassland.net/jamerson.h tml). Subsequently the SITSOM movie was loosly based on the book. IMO What will put the issue to bed is if people stopped claiming music they did not do. They (L.A. session musicans) may have played the tune Bernadette for some publishing demo or TV show but that does not give them the right to claim the original. (Message edited by BassLand on April 10, 2004) | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
This is an old issue gang and it never gets resolved. We may as well drop it. CK has threatened Soulful Detroit with a lawsuit in the past over this so let's not go drudging up old CK problems again. Thanks. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.169.107.33 |
I understand, Ralph. I was not the first to mention her by name in this thread and believe that Larry was or still is a student of Ms Kaye's should have never brought her name to this page in the first place (else it would be known as Soulfull L.A.). I also thought that it was a no no to post an article from a copyrighted page (in this case L.A. Weekly) on Soulfoul Detroit and am surprised it was still here when I originally posted. | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
From what I understand, as long as proper credits are given, it is ok to post an article found elsewhere. David will correct me if I'm wrong. | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.87.41 |
Uhhh Bob?? My post had nothing to do with CK. My post had everything to do with "Session Players" getting their due props, like our beloved Funk Brothers. If I'd read a Philly Session Cats article I'd have posted that too. Any musician (and listener) should've appreciated the article for what it was: Props to Session Players. Also, I don't know why you injected Bernadette into this thread. The article and link I posted, made no mention of it. FWIW, I'm no longer studying with Carol since I switched to upright, but, her lessons were a helluva workout and very helpful, opening my eyes and ears to playing good Jazz. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.169.106.176 |
Sorry but your post did mention CK by name in the 5th paragraph of the copy you lifted from the LA Weekly site. In the same sentence it mentioned something about the Funk Brothers and SITSOM. I am happy you got something from your lessons with her. Here is the link to her subset of that article in which Bernadette is mentioned. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04 /20/features-duersten2.php The question was: "Your generation of session players helped the Musicians Union become stronger � but why did you work for Motown if it was non-union?" If you read the answer, you will see it... Not angry but just stating the facts. I would love to discuss this with you off the SD forum. I hope you still know how to get in touch with me. | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Earlier on Motown WAS non-union as was the majority of the session dates in Detroit. As things grew, musically, in the city, it was becoming more common to file union contracts for recording sessions.This would include Motown, who was one of the leaders in the position to pay union scale for the sessions. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.165.226.215 |
Thanks Ralph, No doubt "$5 and a bowl of soup" (from SITSOM) was not union scale LOL... Gotta go to Sunrise Service... Happy Easter BL | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Happy Easter BL and everyone. | ||
Fred (fred) 1-Arriviste Username: fred Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
A note on the copyright question: It is technically NOT legal to reprint a coyrighted article in its entirety, even if you give credit, without permission of the copyright holder. In the copyright law, there is what is known as "fair use," which permits quoting of a copyrighted work for a number of purposes, including commentary and criticism (and I think that discussion about the article on a forum like this one would qualify), but fair use is limited to repeating only as much of the original work as is necessary to make your point. Please also keep in mind that "fair use" is considered a defense to an infringement suit. That means you have to get sued for infringement before you get to raise "fair use" as an issue. As defending an infringement suit can be expensive, it is probably more prudent to avoid the problem altogether. Given the fresh start here with the new forum, if I may suggest a way we can avoid putting the site and the moderators in anyone's legal gun sights, it might be a good idea if we adopt, formally or informally, a policy that someone finding an article of interest provide a link to the original and no more than a pertinent paragraph or two of the content. | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.87.121 |
Bob wrote: [Motown released backing tracks to Bernadette with no vocals for the sound track to SITSOM. What more do we need in the way of evidence?] Bob, I've mentioned before on this forum that (sadly) the Bass track of Bernadette on the SITSOM CD is NOT the released version. Someone, I think HW mentioned the "released version" wasn't clean enough. My question? Whose track IS on the SITSOM CD? Will we ever be told that? Another controversy to discuss.... (not). | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.115.73.187 |
Now that is a telling question! "Who's Track is on SITSOM?" Lets see, It could be James Jamerson or it could be James Jamerson (Since you are suggesting that there are at least 2 versions) That would be my answer to that question what was YOUR point? (Message edited by bassland on April 11, 2004) | ||
Sue (sue) 1-Arriviste Username: sue Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.166 |
Is there any question that the version released on SITSOM is Jamerson? Am I missing something here? | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.3.132.177 |
Sue, Ok, I got a little catty, but with good reason. The debate of Bernadette has raged within tight circles for what, 15 years+?? And what did we get on SITSOM? A track noone ever heard before. Some track that's hardly close to the released track, the track I've known, memorized and marveled over all these years. I'm sure any hardcore Motown fan, specially a bassist with big ears would be as disappointed as I was. Or, maybe I'm too much of a purist? The use of an outtake on such a seminal cut only served to fuel the CK debate IMHO. | ||
Sue (sue) 1-Arriviste Username: sue Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
I don't think there's any question that's Jamerson, Larry. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.119.52.222 |
Larry, If the out take on SITSOM were Jamerson (and it was) and CK still is claiming to be on the original 45 or the Four Tops Album cut(s) of Bernadette (and I do believe they used different takes for the albums too), then yes SHE is fueling the debate. Actually if you look at the evidence there is no debate only her false claims period... Next subject? Now I asked you if you would like to talk about this off this forum. Ralph has expressed some concern regarding this subject but I sure am not going to give you the last word on that here with some suggestion that WE are fueling the so called debate when CK is in fact generating myth with her claims. Ralph, I think you should step in and handle this. Jamerson is Jamerson if it is the first take or the 43rd not CK I beleive that Larry is the same guy who possibly made $$$ off a bass that he brought to the Knitting Factory and had the Funk Brothers sign it and used the fact that the recently deceased Johnny Griffith signed the bass as a reason to get big $$$ at an auction on E-Bay. Is that factual Larry? (Message edited by BassLand on April 12, 2004) | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.3.132.75 |
Bob, I'll forgive the personal attack. As Carol said "There wouldn't be a Motown without Jamerson". "When he was in LA I tried to get him Gigs". As Jamerson said to a Funk Brother "There's a girl out here (LA) who can play anything". | ||
Bob Babbitt (bob_babbitt) 1-Arriviste Username: bob_babbitt Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
The SITSOM CD with Bernadette on it is 100% Jamerson.....The reason it is a little different from the original is because I was told that in the re-mix when they only played the Bass from the take that was the final cut used for the record, there was leakage from the other tracks, and as a result some if the SITSOM version has been taken from other takes........Bob Babbitt | ||
BassLand (bassland) 1-Arriviste Username: bassland Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.169.104.154 |
"I'll forgive the personal attack." Now that is FUNNY. How much did you get for the bass in question? (How's that for an counter attack? LOL) As far as CK having tried to get Jamerson any work in L.A.? After apparently using at least one of his Motown bassline(s) in her books (uncredited) and claiming some of his recorded work as her own, that would be the very least she should have done... Babbitt, Your words are probably falling on deaf ears with anyone from the CK camp (ie Larry) but, thanks for trying... "Everybody else can't be wrong" It would seem that this LA Weekly story has generated a fair amount of interest on the net (besides here on SD) and the very small part about "Bernadette" a very big part of that interest. I wonder what would have been the reaction had CK launched her claim to "I Was Made To Love Her" in that story? IMO, it is sad for the credability of the whole story to be affected by one segment. Makes me sort of wonder if that remark made did not further damage the credibility of the other fine, hard working session musicians in L.A. ? BTW, I am still not angy at anything (just in case you were wondering)... BL | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
Why do we have this debate from time to time? I'm sure CK played on many sessions of songs we are all familiar with and I would be the last guy to debase her obvious talent. The fact remains, however, she did NOT play on the hit version of Bernadette. Let's please go on to something else! Fred: Thanks for the legal info. I think it would do well for us to keep your advice in mind, which I will most certainly do. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 2-Debutant Username: bassland Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.115.75.30 |
Ralph, This is no debate. An assault on the well deserved recognition that Jamerson and the Funks are receiving in the interest of others?, yes. You ask why it comes up every so ofter? IMO As long as someone on CK's behalf comes here to smear the myth on people here, there is going to be discussion. We can't go over to CK.com and write that Jamerson played bass on [fill in the blank]... The people over there would not have it. I would not want to go there and try to post the truth. I have my own site dedicated to that. If you wished to make SD that kind of oppressed inviornment like ck.com, then the "problems" like the ones we are experiencing now would not exist. I count myself as part of the SD family and hope I am not being too presumptious. I did not invite Larry to come here and post the myth but in a free inviornment (SD) it would seem that dealing with Larry and other CK moles (Remember Treena?) is part of the price of that freedom. I guess in a sense I did cause Larry and Treena to be here due to mentioning SD on my Jamerson page. Both of them contacted me prior to their initial SD debute. At BassLand, dealing with their myth comes through discussion rather than exclusion. Yes, I believe that we are witnessing a campaign designed to get those myths counted as fact but, we have to keep our heads and keep stating the truth. People like Larry will do just what Treena did. They come here, try and drop their load and leave when it gets too hot for them here. Larry could have waged this campaign on the BassLand discussion group but chose to assault SD with it. BL | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.111.78 |
Bob Lee, I'm not in CK's camp and the bass is still for sale if you or anyone you know is interested. Attacking my character was a cheap shot. I'll restate why I created this thread: to show Props to Session Players (in general). Coulda' been Philly, Memphis, Detroit, BFE. In your embattled mind, you only saw CK (read: Blood) and so, the battle was on and you try to kill the messenger. There was only one Jamerson. Everyone was influenced by him and tried to play like him - including you and your nemesis. Lastly, do you have the balls to tell Jamerson Jr. not to sell his father's bass? Or for Mickey Mantle and a thousand other celebs to stop selling their autographs? | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.111.78 |
Bob Babbitt, Thank you for posting. I believe that's what Harry Weinger also said about the SITSOM track. Your playing has always been an inspiration to me, something to shoot for. Your recordings have made me a better player. Picture me listening to "Make Me Wanna Holler", PBass plugged in, working my self into a lather to achieve all the bass nuances....later to find it was 2 bass players. Ignorance is bliss. | ||
BassLand (bassland) 2-Debutant Username: bassland Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 63.207.60.166 |
Actually I did have a conversation with Jamerson Jr regaring his father's bass. If you want to know what was said you would have to ask him as I see it as none of your business. How can stating that you tried to auction the signed bass be considered a cheap shot?  | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.101.111.78 |
Lee, Doctor's orders: Take a chill pill and reread my posts. Signed, Noone's Mole | ||
BassLand (bassland) 2-Debutant Username: bassland Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.119.52.219 |
I didn't figure I'd get a straight answer... Besides, I have read too much of your posts already. I bet a few folks here suffer from that ailment. (Message edited by bassland on April 12, 2004) | ||
Larry (larry) 1-Arriviste Username: larry Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 216.23.183.2 |
Lee, While I appreciate all the attention (you coulda used a better photo), I agree, this pissing match you started should not be for public consumption. Now I know what it's like to be a deer in someone's sights. Truth is, I've had enough of your negative Karma, the rub. Best wishes to you in your crusade. You remind me of Rod Steiger in The Pawnbroker. Who say's no man is an island? I'm now going to take a long shower. Peace Out | ||
BassLand (bassland) 2-Debutant Username: bassland Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.119.53.59 |
I think a more appropriate characterization would be a deer in the headlights but, that's just my opinion... Have a good one... | ||
SteveS (steves) 1-Arriviste Username: steves Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 209.219.207.3 |
Congratulations Bob and Larry for participating in the first official flap / brouhaha (it's a little premature to determine which category this falls under) on the new improved forum! If the late (or at least MIA) B. Foster were here, he'd undoubtedly re-post the infamous "Sign-up Sheet for Hissy Fits" that's floating around somewhere in the old forum. Good of you both to resurrect the old JJ/CK chestnut. Perhaps tomorrow we can move on to the equally compelling "Less Filling / Tastes Great" issue. | ||
Larry (larry) 2-Debutant Username: larry Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 216.23.183.2 |
SteveS, Guffaw! Where the heck have you been? I think the tangential discussion that took place has now been officially laid to rest. Not sure why I was accused of saying she played on it when we all know it was Peter Tork. (thinking to myself if I should hit the Preview/Post Message button) Ahh, what the #%*! | ||
Sue (sue) 1-Arriviste Username: sue Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Hey, where's the signup sheet for hissy fits? Can we sponsor others? | ||
ralph (ralph) Moderator Username: ralph Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 |
It always amazes me, the responses that arise just by the mere mention of this woman's name. This will, at times, cause David to go out and get totally pissed and cause me to get totally pissed in the American sense of the term. If you guys value your poor moderators go on to something new. | ||
David Meikle (david_meikle) 1-Arriviste Username: david_meikle Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 81.130.211.124 |
Thanks Bassland and Ralph. I have been away for several days. There should be no Text Lifting from other sites. Just the link please. As for discussion about CK? Do the decent thing and give us a break......PLEASE! | ||
TD (tmd) 1-Arriviste Username: tmd Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 67.20.49.159 |
James Jamerson continues to amaze me. Every time I hear a Motown song I pay expecially careful attention to the bass. No one compares to the master. I think Reach Out is an amazing piece of work. The only person who could be considered a true diciple is Bob B.- always enjoy hearing his bass on such hits as With This Ring, If I were Your Woman and Ball of Confusion etc. TD |
