| Author | Message | ||
  einnod23 (einnod23) 2-Debutant Username: einnod23 Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 208.27.111.121 |
The fact that the Motown acts are now "too old" was no excuse for that sorry special last night Check out the PBS oldies special. ALL OF THOSE ACTS HAD IT TOGETHER!!!!! You could tell that they rehearsed, they all sang in tune and were airtight!!!! And the production was great. | ||
Soul Sister (soul_sister) 6-Zenith Username: soul_sister Post Number: 550 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.43.156.232 |
Thats a laugh, too old is NO excuse. Jimmy Scott is almost 79 and still knocking them dead with his heart-wrenching songs!HAH! Age is just a number baby, if you got it, you always got it! NO EXCUSE INDEED, what a crock if thats the producer's excuse, shame on them. Those pioneers are the ones who opened the doors for todays artists. S.S. | ||
Randy Russi (randy_russi) 3-Pundit Username: randy_russi Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 169.139.180.100 |
I agree! Also, all of the "too old" acts still work--Martha, Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, the Contours, the Velvelettes, Gladys Horton. Where were they? Why weren't they asked? | ||
willy (willy) 1-Arriviste Username: willy Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 209.114.224.106 |
I tried to watch the "Motown 45" and just couldn't stomach it. It was worse than American Idol. The producers should have sat through a practice session with the acts beforehand, so they could have at least figured out who could still sing and who couldn't. I was amazed at the bad dancing sequence for "Do You Love Me", it was like a bad high school play. I finally ran out of patience with the program when they put on a screeching Joss Stone with Smokey Robinson. They should have taped the Levi Stubbs Tribute (which was amazing!) and put that on instead. | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 3-Pundit Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
This was my point in one of the other threads about the show. You can tell that a lot of these acts just don't keep their chops up and then jump out and try to perform. It really speaks poorly of them. And the show was a hodge-podge of insincere mess in and of itself. Some tribute. | ||
einnod23 (einnod23) 2-Debutant Username: einnod23 Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 208.27.111.121 |
Sudi, "Keep their chops up" It was sad hearing Ron Tyson's loss of falsetto! | ||
Randy Russi (randy_russi) 3-Pundit Username: randy_russi Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 169.139.180.100 |
ABC's top dogs should have their jobs on the line for this one...TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE!!! | ||
SDF (handsome) 4-Laureate Username: handsome Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 170.118.158.14 |
Hey Donnie! Where have you been? Randy, I couln't agree with you more...Kim Weston could've sang It Takes Two. Where WAS Brenda Holloway? Don't get me started! Handsome | ||
Moe (moe) 4-Laureate Username: moe Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.219.162.219 |
too old, TOO OLD??????????????? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!! We have one of the best examples of class acts in Jimmy Scott (thank you SS) who still knocks 'em dead at 79. THEN we have the Flamingos, The Originals, do I have to go on & on?? Bend over ABC because you need to take this beating!!!!!!!! | ||
Greg C. (greg_c) 2-Debutant Username: greg_c Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 166.84.225.50 |
This mess was obviously put together by someone with limited knowledge and no appreciation of the Motown legacy. Even the dancers sucked! It was like a bad junior high school talent show... | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 907 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
The main difference between last night's show & the PBS show simply boils down to one truth: P.J. cares!!! You can see that he truly loves the music & it's artists & is sincere in his love! Motown 45, on the other hand was produced by a CORPORATION who probably is also in the business of selling Orange Juice, Candy, Eclectronics, etc. There's no love there. Motown happens to be a world wide famous name, with enormous appeal & a built in audience. Which translates into DOLLARS. Motown is just another of their holdings & obviously, is merely a cash cow in their eyes. As such, they must believe that they can throw out any piece of junk, slap the Motown tag on it & people will accept it. Accept it not because it was great, not because it was wonderful, but accept it because it's called MOTOWN! The production was proof of this! | ||
Tony Russi (tony_russi) 4-Laureate Username: tony_russi Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.18.58.26 |
Brother Juice you are so right on!! | ||
Randy Russi (randy_russi) 3-Pundit Username: randy_russi Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 169.139.180.100 |
TJ Lubinsky does a GREAT job with the PBS music specials he produces. The artists receive the most respect for their history and music. And, yes, TJ LOVES the music. Handsome, actually both Brenda Holloway and Kim Weston were seated in the audience. And, I believe, so was Scherrie Payne, who should have been on stage with Mary and Cindy. Just a real shame! | ||
Moe (moe) 4-Laureate Username: moe Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.219.162.219 |
If I have my information correct, I do believe TJ has left PBS (WQED 13 Pittsburgh) for other endeavours. If you've ever had a conversation with him, you would definitely know he LOVES the music!! Brother Juice you are so right!! | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 5-Doyen Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 395 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.46.52 |
He is still with PBS, only thru the New Jersey Network.(NJN) | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 261 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.50.39.33 |
Too old? Then they should change the name too... Because people expect those 'OLD' acts when they hear about Motown... Just to explain my point of view... NAME 10 acts currently signed to Motown???? I can't! Now NAME 10 classic Motown acts??? I know I can name more than 20 in my sleep... And what about the NON-Motown acts that were on the bill for this evening??? What connection with Motown and why chose them over the classic acts to illustrate the golden age of this label... Well really, I CANNOT understand... Wonder B If you mess with the 'fro, you gotta go! (Message edited by Wonder B on May 18, 2004) | ||
HW on SD (catalog) 1-Arriviste Username: catalog Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 12.110.192.128 |
Brenda was sitting to the right of the auditorium, about 15 rows back, singing along enthusiastically all night. Brenda, Claudette Robinson and Janie Bradford made their way to the stage from the audience for the finale. Just reporting fact. Infer all you like. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 914 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
HW hello. If this is Harry from Motown, I applaud you for the fine work that you've been doing with the catalog. In no way would we single you out for last night's fiasco. In fact sir, I believe that if this production was placed into your loving & able hands, you most definitely would have shown more respect to the history of Motown & its artists, as well as its legacy. Motown used to represent elegance, class & great singing. With folks such as Cedric (I love him), Wayne Brady, etc, we got a hybrid that could more accurately be called "NO-TOWN" or "Karoake On Motown". It simply did nothing to uphold the classy, skilled Motown productions that I used to know. Respectfully, I ask you how do you really feel about the production values of the show, as well as the inclusion of the "non" singers who were allowed to sing center stage, while original MOTOWN artists sat in the audience? When you compare last nights' special to the many previous Motown specials, how do you feel that it stacks up? I wish that the special would have been as great as the marvelous efforts you've made as regards the Motown catalog. You've been doing a splendid job! In fact, if they had given the same attention to detail & loving care to the special that you give to the re-issues, we would be raving right now! Sir, the problem here is that EVERYONE in this forum wanted this to be GREAT, to be SPECIAL. We have members who had huge MOTOWN 45 parties. We have members who have been counting down to this event for weeks. They feel cheated & justifiably so. Honestly, was Motown 45 a special that they'll look back on & feel proud of?? Somehow, I don't think so. Respectfully!!! Juice (Message edited by Juicefree20 on May 19, 2004) | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 271 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.48.89.178 |
Harry W if that's you, you're doing an OUTSTANDING job with the reissues... At one point on a newsgroup you were taking pointers from the fans for a FUNKY PEOPLE part 4 album... where does that stand now? And are you involved with the Motown Singing Machine Series? If so, can we expect more than the initial batch already released because it said on the website that this series was going to have 15 volumes... Well sorry for wayyyyyyyy too many questions! Wonder B If you mess with the 'fro, you gotta go! | ||
Andy Alonzo (joker) 1-Arriviste Username: joker Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.54.205.193 |
I think it all boils down to if you don't use it you'll lose it,and sometime's you lose an octive anyway. Time and over use is bad, not all of us know how to take care of our voices, we are not a machine, I don't know how many times I had to scream over the band because the PA wasn't good enough or the band was just to loud. What about The Contours, The Originals, Martha Reeves, not a good show. Andy Alonzo | ||
DavidS91 (davids91) 1-Arriviste Username: davids91 Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 198.81.26.46 |
I thought Gladys Knight did an amazing rendition of "Neither One of Us." | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.34.51.20 |
Andy, It's an interesting topic to me -- what can or should a singer to do preserve the voice. How much of it is luck? We all can cite older singers who still have it; others who don't. I have to think a good musical director could work more with vocalists who need help. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 957 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
I don't know how to preserve one's voice. I think that years of forcing one's voice to sing in a higher key has something to do with it. There are so many singers who always sing at their upper register at all times & sometimes, you can notice that they're straining! I guess that good, clean living has much to do with preservation. I know one thing, if I were a singer, I would definitely ask EDDIE HOLMAN!!! This man hasn't lost a thing & may sound even better than in his youth!!! His performance on the PBS special was both remarkable & sublime!!! He should write a handbook on the subject!! | ||
Moe (moe) 4-Laureate Username: moe Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.140.73.100 |
Hi Juice, Hope you're having a great day!! I stand by what I said. There are some groups (Originals, Flamingos, Lenny Welch) BESIDES Eddie Holman who can give it like the original. I still remember the very first time Porky Chedwick (in Pittsburgh) played "This Can't Be True" . To those people/ groups they are "naturals." | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
I'd like to hear from the singers and professional musicians ... | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
Billy Joel once said that most males with higher voices lose a chunk at the top of their range, with time. He did. But I saw Paul McCartney on his last tour, and whatever he's been doing, he can hit those high notes. And if you're a Beatles fan, you know that Paul was up there in the mix. Bob Seger makes his musicians do his songs in a lower key, and he can't sing "Katmandu" he says at all. But he admits it's partly his mega pack a day cigarette habit that did that. Said also that Joni Mitchell warned him that it would happen (but she too hasn't stopped). | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 965 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
I was five when I heard This Can't Be True. It is still my favorite Eddie Holman song. I hear you Moe. There are many of those classic artists who still bring it. I still love Marvin Junior!!! Moe, don't spank them too hard, love!!!  Well, ok, do what you've gotta do!!! | ||
Don (don) 4-Laureate Username: don Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.77.34.127 |
I like to address the person who started this thread. Motown artist too old which is a complete waste of a word to say. If the power that be that still has the creative control as quiet as it's kept, to be fair minded and stop being petty, and the rest of the artist that are still here would've been given the chance to perform at M's 45, could've proven that they still have the pipes to do their thang for once and for all. By the time they the rest of the million selling artist that helped build Motown and for Motown to give them the oppurtunity (sad but true) I think their contributions and fans memory will be non and void. It's a damn shame. "Do anyboby here remember my old friends John, Martin and Robert?". | ||
Andy Alonzo (joker) 1-Arriviste Username: joker Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.54.205.221 |
Sue, a vocal coach and all ways keep your neck wraped in the winter. I used to be a tenor, now I'm a barritone/bass. We did a show with Eddie Holman last Sat.and he still has a great tenor, I don't think he's been at it as long as I but he sings great. Andy Alonzo | ||
Chi Drummer (chidrummer) 1-Arriviste Username: chidrummer Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 64.107.153.120 |
Time, wear & tear takes its toll on all parts of the human body. The voice is no exception. However, learning to sing properly and taking care of yourself will help maintain your skills longer (just as it would a pro athlete) This is rarely the case with the older stars of rock and roll and r&b. In fact, the lifestyle vertually guaranteed deminishing chops as these performers reached their 40's and 50's. I beg to differ with you Sue, McCartney has lost quite a bit of high end and has changed keys and/or stopped singing many of his classics. On the other hand, good genes are always the trump card. Little Richard hasn't changed any of his keys yet and neither has Al Green. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.34.51.20 |
Chi, Check out the reviews from McCartney's last tour, a lot of people remarked upon how he was hitting the high notes for the first time in years. I'd noticed he wasn't hitting them a few years back, so I wondered if he'd been working on it. Maybe you saw him on one of those tours ... Stopped singing many of his classics? Which ones? He sang almost 100% classics on the last tour, very few new songs. | ||
Steve (steve_litos) 2-Debutant Username: steve_litos Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 209.100.86.4 |
Paul Mc - I saw him sing "Maybe I'm Amazed" in the winter of 1989 and it sounded very rough. By that summer (1990), the song was no longer in the set. In 2002 he had it on all 3 show that I witnessed & it sounded great. He may have toned it down & let the mic do the work instead of powering through it like the days of old. Check the CD or DVD for proof. The 2002 tour was waaaaay better than the 1989-90 tour. No, his voice isn't as supple as his youth (check out the demo recording c.1968 of the Mary Hopkin song "Goodbye" wow!) but he's not shot yet. I saw John Fogerty in 1998 at the House of Blues. He's like the George Foreman of Rock N' Roll since he's been "retired" from the music biz since 1974 with only a couple of years of activity. (Mid-80's & late 90's). He was 52 or 53 with very little wear on the voice. It was a 2 hour set of all Creedence/Fogerty classics & he only missed one note! (believe HALF of what you see on "I Heard It Through The Grapevine") He kinda shook his head for a second thinking "That note doesn't wan't to go anymore" & then continued to rock. | ||
Largo161 (largo161) 1-Arriviste Username: largo161 Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.142.0.77 |
Some voice studies I've come across on the Net claim that the pitch of a man's voice will naturally get higher as he ages, while a woman's will deepen. As far as singers losing their chops goes--I agree with Chi. It's due to a combination of general health habits (smoking vs. non-smoking, etc.) and whether or not your singing technique is actually damaging the vocal folds. | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 3-Pundit Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
Eddie Holman is the first person I think of when I think of people who have kept their chops up. I know that everybody is different, and even the best have some drop-off. But when I look at people like Eddie Holman or Patti Labelle or Gladys Knight, I have a problem with other people who have abused their instrument, or whose singing style was abuse in and of itself, being trotted out like they've still got it when it's over. Nostalgia is nice, but I want to hear music. Lifestyle, maintenance and technique are all choices. Maybe the money is worth wearing the voice out early, but if it's completely worn out, you're through. And, the fact is that a lot of people are going to need to be gigging fairly late in life. That's why I am more impressed with people whose singing style and technique is favorable to longevity and good sound than those whose popularity is based more on peculiarity and audience identification in the first place. And then again, sometimes I can deal with somebody whose voice is all husked over with age, but what about the ear? Some of the intonation I hear from some people suggests that they just haven't been doing anything but partying and then they want to get up and make a bunch of noise. That's not respectful of the art. Illness is one thing, but age is no excuse for sounding just plain bad. If you're doing it right and you really had it to begin with, enough of it will be left in your old age for you to at least be pallatable. Look Patti Labelle. She whoops and hollers and yells and screams and runs up and down all night long, but she whoops and hollers and screams in tune and she sounds great - and she's no chicken. Eddie Holman isn't ancient, but he's no child either. And, he sings in a falsetto, which is notoriously destructive of the voice, but he sounds fantastic. The way to honor people who can't do it any more is to sit them in a seat in the audience and have them stand up and take a bow now and then - do a profile on them with a nice video montage or something. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
It's true, age is no excuse for sounding bad. Steve, a lot of us observed the same thing with McCartney. He seemed rejuvenated in many ways on this last tour; I noticed he'd probably had a nip and tuck facially, so it was interesting to hear that his voice was more supple as well. Of course he isn't entirely where he was in his 20s, but just to be able to hit many of the notes he used to is amazing. It shows that you can work on the vocals and get some of it back. | ||
GOAT (goat) 4-Laureate Username: goat Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.228.135.155 |
There are exceptions to EVERY rule. As my ex-wife was a singer (especially higher notes) and went to some great schools for music. It is in fact not an excuse but a truth. Yes, you can do wonderful techniques to keep your voice in better shape but it still takes a toll. And most folks don't keep their voices in great shape as they get older. What do you think they have the money for? So they can spend it on what they want. Vacations, drinking, drugs, food...They can't go on forever. | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 3-Pundit Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
Sure goat, but when it's over, it's over. Sit down and take your bow as the spotlight pans the audience. Let the ones that still have it perform. | ||
GOAT (goat) 4-Laureate Username: goat Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.228.147.96 |
I agree with that Sudi Kamau! Why can't the ones just fade away and let us listen to the stuff when they were good, instead of trying to "make a come back"? | ||
Stonewall (stonewall) 5-Doyen Username: stonewall Post Number: 323 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.237.10.142 |
FYI, since it was referenced in somebody's post somewhere above, when Miss MARTHA personally called me from Detroit to N.Y.C. midday on Monday -- the doomed day of "M-45" -- with the very shocking and sad news that MARTHA REEVES & THE VANDELLAS and their "Dancing In The Street" performance were unceremoniously and without notice and needlessly edited out of the show, I promptly cancelled my big "MOTOWN 45" dinner party and other coordinated events via the S.V.A. There was no longer anything to celebrate. U can't honor "shame". By the way, the show's producers are now claiming technical sound problems. No doubt! I don't disbelieve people unless there is factual reason. However, they had one-and-a-half months until showtime to correct it (that includes re-do!). Long live The Vandellas!!! "M-45" is already dead. MRV: www.STONEWALLvets.org/songsofS tonewall-7.htm | ||
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau) 3-Pundit Username: sudi_kamau Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.117.198.35 |
Yeah, Goat. It's like a fighter or a football player trying to hang on just a little too long. I remember Larry Holmes having to be saved by the ring doctor in a come-back fight. The doctor called the fight on the basis of the other guy's eye being cut because Holmes ran out of gas and started getting his ass kicked . Joe Namath's last days with the Rams were pretty pathetic too. As the preacher used to say, "Don't make us glad twice - glad to see you get up, and glad to see you sit down." | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 208 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.42.211.240 |
These artist are not too old to sing, perform, and have concerts. The younguns want to be a part of the legacy. There are different types of music, and a different way of singing. Why would they put Kelly with the Supremes. It was ridiculous (sp). Of course Kelly is slim and petite. She is younger. They should have had Kim Weston or one of the others from that era. The younguns also do not have the voice quality that was once held by the ladies of our era. You cannot mix apples with sweet grapes, and expect it to taste like sweet grape wine. We want to see our legendary artist whether or not they sound the same as they did when they were in their 20's. Nancy Wilson doesn't sound the same, but she can still blow. Whitney Houston, hasn't reached the golden age, but doesn't sound the same as she did previously. Nancy's voice lasted much longer than Whitney's. Aretha is still singing after all these years. Will Kelly or Beyonce be here, sounding fresh and clear five years from now? Will they last as long as Nancy, Gladys, and Aretha? (Message edited by sis on May 21, 2004) | ||
GOAT (goat) 4-Laureate Username: goat Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.228.146.115 |
That's what drugs adn heavy partying will do to you. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Go Sis ...Go Sis ... Aretha started sounding better at a certain point, and not when she was 25. Gladys' voice is deeper and richer, and it works. | ||
Wonder B (wonder_b) 5-Doyen Username: wonder_b Post Number: 323 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 80.14.113.239 |
Gladys cannot be beat if you think of how long she has been singing... no one has sung that long while keeping her power and pitch... Wonder B If you mess with the 'fro, you gotta go! | ||
einnod23 (einnod23) 2-Debutant Username: einnod23 Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 24.90.14.107 |
When I started this thread, it was not written as an indictment of the acts, but some questions about the production. Producers on this board can clarify, but I always thought a good production/direction of a show has a couple of factors: 1) singers singing in tune, or in the key the singer is comfortable; and 2) song selection. If a singer cannot hit a certain note, shouldn't one drop the key? Ron Tyson's falsetto sounded very cracked!!!!! Dropping the key to "Get Ready" either a whole step (or more) may have been in order. And shouldn't My Girl have been lowered to fit Theo Peoples's range? Or maybe the producers should have had him sing "Lady Soul" (I know it's not a #1 pop hit, but still...). I listen to SITSOM. ALL of them sang in tune. Age had nothing to do with that. It was a well produced CD, with the selection of the right keys and the right songs to sing. The PBS special was along the same lines. Peace. | ||
Vonnie (vonnie) 4-Laureate Username: vonnie Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Sis, You are right on target! Age has nothing to do with singing, it is only a number. The voice of Gladys proved that point, and the new album by The Queen of Soul is pure delight. | ||
Andy Alonzo (joker) 1-Arriviste Username: joker Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 69.54.205.179 |
einnod23, That was G.C. Camron singing My Girl. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 191 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
As all of society must, the music buz is dealing with ageism more now as people are living longer and are more vital. Rock and roll is no exception. Hopefully the rampant ageism will be confronted. I must give props to Nona Hendryx for addressing this years ago. | ||
einnod23 (einnod23) 2-Debutant Username: einnod23 Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 24.90.14.107 |
Andy, My bad! |
