| Author | Message | ||
  Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Hi! I recently talked to Luther Ingram for his story in our upcoming issue. He recorded before KoKo two singles (although his first recordings came out in 1956) - HIB 698, If It's All The Same To You Babe/Exus Trek (instr.) and Hurdy-Gurdy 102) Run For Your Life/I Need You Know Luther doesn't remember all the details. I guess both of those labels were owned by Mr. Bateman. And I guess they were N.Y. labels. HIB was distributed by Atco. Was this release before Hurdy-Gurdy? How was Mr. Popcorn Wylie involved? Who are Aikens and Frye? (in the writer credits) Who else recorded for Hib? ------------- On Hurdy-Gurdy I know Donald Height had a single (De Da Da) - anybody else? Is this also Bateman's N.Y. label, where he invited his Detroit buddies? I know "acoolcat" has some answers, but perhaps somebody else too ? Best regards Heikki | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 4-Laureate Username: robb_k Post Number: 122 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.20.241 |
Hej Heikki, The HIB record is a Detroit record. HIB was located at 4862 Parker St. in Detroit. Bateman(although already located in NY at the time) teamed up with his old Motown and Correc-Tone colleague, Popcorn Wylie, on a couple of Luther Ingram records (HIB and Smash). Wylie wrote all 3 vocals (also "(I Spy)For The F.B.I." and "Foxy Devil" on Mercury's Smash Records). Wylie probably produced the session in Detroit, with Bateman as Executive Producer. Wylie's A-La-King Music shared publishing with Bateman's Brianbert. HIB probably stands for H (H. Kelley's first name? or Hurd?), I for Ingram, and B for Bateman. I think Hurdy Gurdy was a NY label, with the same Hurd that owned Hurd Records, (Paul?)as the owner. That's all I know. I hope Graham and some of the others can answer the rest of your questions. I assume the Smash record was recorded in Detroit (it sounds to me that it is so), despite the fact that "Foxy Devil" was co-written by Ron Mosely, one of Bateman's NY colleagues. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 4-Laureate Username: robb_k Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.20.241 |
As you hadn't listed the Smash Record as one of his records before KoKo, here is the information: Smash 2019 (1966) Luther Ingram & The G-Men "(I Spy)For The F.B.I" writers-Richard Wylie-H. Kelley Producers R. Bateman & Ron Mosely /"Foxy Devil" -writers Wicker, Bateman, Mosely. same producers. I think the BG tracks may have been recorded in Detroit(but not sure), and the vocals in NY. For the HIB record, I think the BG tracks were definately recorded in Detroit. The vocals may have been recorded also in Detroit, (but also possibly in NY). | ||
mel(andthensome) (mel) 4-Laureate Username: mel Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.152.20.77 |
Wasnt there 2 other versions to the Run for your life 45 by the harrison brothers on Bobalou no.1001 and another version which fails me at present. I thought they were all connected but obviously(as ever)wrong again. mel | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Hi Robb_K, I knew you would come up with some answers. I know about that Smash single. My Japanese friend Hirohito kindly taped and photocopied it for me. And I think it came out a couple of months before Jamo Thomas. Mel, I didn't know about those two versions. Interesting. Any more info on HIB and Hurdy-Gurdy? Best regards Heikki | ||
mel(andthensome) (mel) 4-Laureate Username: mel Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.43.32.122 |
Heikki I am sure I have some obscure material somewhere regards the Hurdy Gurdy label. Anyway off the top of my head I know that Lou Courtney recorded a funk 45 on a Hurdy Gurdy logo. also Donald height was on the label. cant recall if its the same or not but would of thought so. will try to find other info. mel&donovon aka the hurdy gurdy man. | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 3-Pundit Username: acooolcat Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 203.69.208.9 |
Hi Heikki My computer is being fixed, so I'm in an Internet cafe - without accesss to my files - but what about the 45 on Decca too? There was only one 45 on HIB and the address was Robert Bateman's house on Parker. I've seen different colored copies of the HIB disc - some may be boots - but I'm sure it was released in Detroit before being picked up. It was recorded in Detroit, and so was the Hurdy Gurdy 45, although Robert told that label came out of New York. The backing track to that on was used a few times - as you probably know. Luther's version of "I Spy" was not cut in Detroit - I think it was done in Chicago. Robert and Luther hail from the same small town - I forget the name.... somewhere around Ohio I think. ...More when I have access to my files. | ||
mel(andthensome) (mel) 4-Laureate Username: mel Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.154.129.180 |
Graham have you heard the version on Bobalou? and if so do you know the Bobalou 45 with same title but sometimes listed as by Music Minus Two........ if so if this is the same record etc is this the name for the artists that feature on the inst. or am I way out here,or what?????????? cheers bob-mel-alou | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Thank you "acoolcat", Yes, the Decca single was Luther's first 60s recording (released 5/65), Smash came after that (out 1/66, I think) and then HIB and Hurdy-Gurdy, although I still don't know, in which order (those last two, I mean). You should always have your notes in front of you, when writing messages and asking questions; my bad. Luther was born in Jackson, Tennessee, but at ten moved to Alton, Illinois. He's moved around a lot during his career. I still haven't transposed his answers from my tape, but I'll do that tomorrow, I hope. Waiting for more info from you, very appreciated! Also Mel, if you can find anything, I'd be very grateful. Incidentally, does anybody know if Jamo Thomas is still around? Best regards Heikki | ||
Flynny (anoraks_corner) 3-Pundit Username: anoraks_corner Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.122.208.154 |
T'other version of 'Run for your life' (my fave of the three) is by Douglas Gibson on Tangerine records. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.199.27 |
Hi! Thanks to everybody so far. A couple of things more: Luther says he cut all of those four singles (Decca, Smash, HIB and Hurdy-Gurdy) in New York, although there really is a Detroit address on the HIB one. "Acoolcat", at one point in the early 60s Luther lived also in St. Clair county, Illinois, and most probably met Mr. Bateman there (although it could have been earlier in St. Louis, too). I don't think Luther's I Spy has any Chicago connections. Jamo Thomas' may have, since Luther said there was some sort of a deal between Jamo and the Impressions (!?) on that one. Jamo's version, I think, first came out on St. Lawrence Records (wasn't this a Detroit label?) before it was released on Thomas. Jamo himself was based in Chicago those days. Does anybody know, if KoKo 104 (or 1054, as I've also seen it in print) exists? The sides are You Can Depend On Me (the original version) and Your Shelter (supposedly the early version of I'll Be Your Shelter). If this was released, it must have come out in 1968. I haven't seen a copy and Luther doesn't remember such a release. Finally, if anybody has a copy of Little Dooley's Just Like A Child on KoKo 102, who gets the writer credits on that single? I've only heard this great deep ballad, but haven't got a copy myself. Waiting for your kind answers... Best regards Heikki | ||
Flynny (anoraks_corner) 3-Pundit Username: anoraks_corner Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.131.220.44 |
Heikki, St.Lawrence is a Chicago label. KoKo 102 is actually mis-credited to 'Little Dodley', with a fab NS flip called, 'Pity for the lonely', but I no longer have the disc so can't help you with the writer credits.  | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 4-Laureate Username: robb_k Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.177.206 |
Jamo Thomas recorded his version of "I Spy For The FBI" in Chicago. He worked with Monk Higgins Burgess Gardner and a whole host of Chicago people associated with Craig-Vee Productions, on St. Lawrence, Satellite, Sack and Thomas Records-ALL Chicago labels. | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 3-Pundit Username: acooolcat Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 61.222.95.58 |
My 'puter is still being fixed. I'll have to listen to my interview with Robert to get the name of the town they grew up in. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 62.248.146.99 |
Thank you Robb_K and Flunny! Flunny, I think that really is Little Dooley on KoKo 102 and his original cut of Pity For The Lonely (before Luther did it). I was just wondering was Just Like A Child (the other side) credited to Luther ? It should be anyway. Now I'm still wondering about the existence of that KoKo 104 (or 1054). I'm beginning to think it doesn't exist at all. Hi "acoolcat", I'm anxiously waiting for your computer to get fixed and for your answers )and perhaps additional info on the questions in my previous postings). Best regards Heikki | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 62.248.146.99 |
Hi Flunny, still, Now I'm puzzled about KoKo 102. Could there be two pressings? If you go to Yoni's website http://www.melingo.com/thesoul net/ridley.htm and scroll down just below midway, you can actually listen to the song, but my eyes can't distinguish whose name is in the credits. Best regards Heikki | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Hi Flunny, once more, you're absolutely correct. I got a little mixed up, when I started examining more closely Little Dooley's career (on Baylor, Bart, KoKo, North Bay and Cotton) and got confused with some A and B sides. I misunderstood you first. Sorry! I think the writer on that Just Like A Child side isn't Dooley, but who is it? Best regards Heikki | ||
mel(andthensome) (mel) 4-Laureate Username: mel Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.43.32.110 |
Dont forget Luthers Decca 45 'aint that nice' mel | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.199.27 |
Hi Mel! I certainly don't. It has a lot of Motown elements to it, doesn't it? I think this was because of Mr. Bateman. Best regards Heikki | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 2-Debutant Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.18.222.35 |
Re the Hurdy Gurdy label - I think the label that issued the Donald Height single is a different company. The Height single is from the early 70's whereas everything I've heard heard about Luther Ingram would give a 1966 year of release for "his" Hurdy Gurdy single. If I remember rightly there's also a Lou Courtney release on the Donald Height Hurdy Gurdy label. I've never heard of any connection to the Hurd label. Re Douglas Gibson on Tangerine - apart from "Run For Your Life" he did another Bob Bateman song "I Won't Leave" for Tangerine - it may well be the other side of "Run .." - I can't access my database to check. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 176 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.192.224 |
Thanks, Davie. I only guessed that the "Hurdy' portion MIGHT have come from having the owner of Hurd as a co-owner. It was complete conjecture. Can anyone put a scan of Luther's Decca Record on this thread? I haven't seen it since the mid-late '60s. For some reason, I didn't buy it. Did it sound Detroit-like, as did his HIB and Smash records? | ||
mel(andthensome) (mel) 4-Laureate Username: mel Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.154.133.42 |
Cheers Davie was a bit dubious myself thanks for clearing things up. mel | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 181 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.183.209 |
Just because one Hurdy Gurdy label operated in 1966, and the other in 1972, doesn't mean there was no connection. As both were located in NY, and Bateman was involved with both, maybe the 1972 version of Hurdy Gurdy was a "resurrection" of the old label, with the prime money owner as primary owner of both? Lot's of label owners started up labels years later with the same name as one of their old label names (or the name of their only previous label). Lou Courtney was involved in a lot of Bateman productions in the late '60s (and here, apparently a 1972 connection). | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Hi! The Decca single details: You Never Miss Your Water (Luther Ingram-Ronald Moseley-Robert Bateman); Durbrina Music co. and Champion Music Corp. (BMI). - 31794 (115,417) - Luther Ingram, vocal with chorus and orchestra directed by Bob Bateman; a Capricorn Production (2:35) - a catcy mid-pacer, a lot like Sam Cooke Ain't That Nice (Luther Ingram-Ronald Moseley-Robert Bateman)+ the same - a stormy stomper and yes, echoes from Motown Davie, that's interesting about Lou Courtney on Hurdy-Gurdy. You don't happen to know the # and the name of the single? It is very possible, since Lou co-wrote I Need You Now, the b-side to Luther's single. Donald Height's Hurdy-Gurdy single was 100 (De Da Da), and Luther's Run For Your Life was 102, but I guess this numbering on those labels wasn't very logical at the time. I hope to hear it from the horse's mouth soon. Best regards Heikki | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 2-Debutant Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.18.222.34 |
Rob,Heikki Now that I've had a chance to look at my notes I'm wondering if that Luther Ingram single on Hurdy Gurdy are old tracks that were issued to cash in on Luther's hits on Koko. That Lou Courtney single I mentioned was on Hurdy Gurdy 101. "Hot Butter 'n All" pts. 1&2 I've yet to see an actual copy and can't recall exactly where I got the details - probably some ancient auction list. That would give us a tentative listing for the label as 100 Donald Height 101 Lou Courtney 102 Luther Ingram The Donald Height single's from '71, the Lou Courtney's probably the same (it would fit in between his spells at Buddah and Epic). It's well known that Lou had a writing / producing partnership with Bob Bateman from roughly 1966 to at least late '69. I didn't know the number for the Luther Ingram single which was what made think that "his" Hurdy Gurdy label was unrelated to the one that issued Donald Height. Now that I know the number's 102 it looks as if I'll have to rethink things. Luther's career on Koko was starting to take off in 1970 so it might well be that whoever owned Hurdy Gurdy had access to old Bateman - Courtney productions on Luther and issued the single hoping to get a few spin-off sales. It's a damn nuisance I can't access my database to see if I have more details there - anyway you've now got another question to ask Luther when you speak to him, Heikki. Give him our best wishes - I hope he's recovering well from his operation. Davie | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 2-Debutant Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.18.222.34 |
Forgot to mention that "I Need You Now" was also recorded by the Drifters on Atlantic in '68 - Bateman & Courtney were the producers. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Thank you very much, Davie, you know that very same thought came to my mind, when you first mentioned that Donald's single derived from the early 70s. No wonder Luther didn't remember any Hurdy-Gurdy label, but he remembered the songs. Yes, I've already talked to Luther, but I guess I have to talk to him briefly again. Now I only wish Mr. Bateman would answer me. Best regards Heikki | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 3-Pundit Username: acooolcat Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 61.63.202.133 |
Davie What you say is a real possibility - although when I met Robert he had a (worn) copy of the Hurdy Gurdy 45. I don't think he'd have had one if it had been released several years after it was cut. Just a thought. | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 193 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.24.116 |
He might, if the delayed release had been done, legally, with his cooperation and involvement. Even though it might have been a previously unreleased recording from 1966-68 or so, Bateman may have wanted to benefit some from Ingram's newly-found popularity. That makes more sense than The Hurdy-Gurdy owner or A&R man getting hold of the master in another way. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 213.18.222.35 |
Here's another piece of the jigsaw - The other side of Donald Height's "Da De Da" single (Hurdy Gurdy 100) was "Life Is Free" BMI credits the writers Robert Bateman and Thomas Glascoe, the publisher is, would you believe, "Exus Trek". I can't trace the writers for "Da De Da". The Height single was listed as a new release in Blues & Soul 51 (Jan 22,1971) so we've got an approximate January 1971 release date. It would be helpful if somebody could come up with the full writer / producer credits for that Lou Courtney release. Davie | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Thank you Davie for that information, is it De Da Da or Da De Da ? (or is still too silly already?) Best regards Heikki | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 3-Pundit Username: acooolcat Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 210.200.105.226 |
Lou Courtney's Verve 45, "You Can Give Your Love To Me," was wriitten by Robert Bateman, produced by Lou and Robert, and arranged by Lou. (Verve #10631). | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 201 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.25.6 |
Emalou Productions was a partnership between Bateman and Lou Courtney. They produced several records on several different labels (Verve, Buddah, Riverside, etc.)on Lou and other artists, between 1966 and 1970. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.5 |
I've a fairly complete listing of Bob Bateman's writing / production work which I'll post as a separate thread when I've done some tidying up on it. Apart from Emalou Productions I'd say it's a a safe bet that Bateman and Courtney owned the Bobalou label (BOB Bateman -A-LOU Courtney) I've identified nearly all the songs credited to Bob on his BMI listing - I'm still trying to track down these ALL SHE WANTS TO DO IS DANCE BOY FOR ME (THE) I FEEL SO GOOD - probably the Harrison Brothers I FELL IN LOVE (Bateman,Hollon,Moseley) PAY THE BILL (Bateman,Holland,Edwards) mOTOwn ? SAY WHAT YOU GOTTA SAY (Bateman,Hollon,Moseley) SWEAT (Bateman,Hollon,Wicker) (THE) WAY WE SWING (Bateman,Holland,Hendrix,Jacob s) Anybody recognise these ? Davie | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 3-Pundit Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 212.219.250.5 |
Heikki, I typed that post too quickly - it's "De Da Da" DaDeDaDavie  | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 203 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.29.106 |
"The Way We Swing" was definately an early Jobete song. I remember seeing it on the tape list. I can't remember who recorded it. I don't think it was released on vinyl. If it was, it was a throwaway song on an album. Marv Johnson U.A. rings a bell. Just a note: Holland Bateman and Hendrix(or Hendricks) wrote a few more songs together (2 of them for Cornell Blakely -as James Hendrix was his manager). Perhaps Blakely also recorded it. I don't remember seeing it on a Blakely Rich single. "Pay The Bill" was also a Jobete song. I think that was unreleased on vinyl, but pressed on acetate. I think Mary Wells recorded it (and also one or two others). | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 3-Pundit Username: acooolcat Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 210.200.105.225 |
Heikki I've just listened to my interview with Robert and here are the salient points regarding Luther: 1. The Hurdy Gurdy 45 was cut in New York. 2. Luther's "I Spy" was the original version, cut in New York with NY musicians. 3. The HIB 45 was cut in Detroit. 4. Luther was singing with Robert's father when he was a child, in a quintet called The Spirit of Alter (sp). 5. They are both from the St Louis area. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.199.27 |
Thanks acooolcat, It's true that Luther spent a lot of time in the St. Louis area in the 50s, but I think the name of that gospel group is something else. I'll verify it still with Luther. Best regards Heikki | ||
Robb_K (robb_k) 5-Doyen Username: robb_k Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.81.199.152 |
Thanks, Graham. I assume that the Decca 45 was also cut in NY, with NY musicians. | ||
acooolcat (acooolcat) 4-Laureate Username: acooolcat Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 210.200.105.244 |
Robb, I didn't ask Robert that question, unfortunately. I think the Hurdy-Gurdy track was cut in Detroit - it sounds like it to me: Maybe just the vocals were done in NY? I haven't heard it for a while - but I seem to remember a bari' sax that sounded like Mike Terry's. Heikki - The gospel group could be The Spirit of The Altar.... Robert seemed to remember it clearly enough. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.193.223 |
Hi acooolcat, it can very well be. I just try to check it out. On the other hand it could be The Spirit of Alton. Best regards Heikki | ||
Heikki (heikki) 3-Pundit Username: heikki Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.199.27 |
Hi, acooolcat, Now I got a verification: it was The Spirit of Alton, where Bateman's father sang. But Luther wasn't a member. He and Luther's group sang on the same program. Best regards Heikki |
