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Message |
 
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 414
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 6:54 pm: �� |     ���  |
We all know about the influence of The Funk Brothers. What I am wondering is this: What type of effect did James Brown have on your playing? James turned the whole rhythm thing around. Did he have any effect on your playing & what was the overall opinion of your peers as regards his innovations?
Peace
Juice |
Allen (allen)
1-Arriviste
Username: allen
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.31.32.197
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:27 am: �� | ��� |
Juicefree,
When I got my first bass at age 15, I wasn't thinking about playing James Brown or any other R&B/Soul music. I and most of my friends were listening to rock and fusion. I was listening to Jimi Hendrix, Grand Funk Railroad, Yes, Santana, Chicago, Tower Of Power, ZZ Top, Led Zeplin, Black Sabath, and ect.
Of course I would hear JB on the radio and at every party and family function, but I was going to be a rock and roll musician. That bubble was bursted by a good friend when he brought to my attention that there really were no Black rock musicians. I thoght for a long minute ... and went and got every JB record I could fine and learned them verbatum.
What a fantasy world I was living in.
Allen |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 445
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:26 pm: �� | ��� |
What's up Allen!
Considering your funky bass work, that's amazing to hear. I bet that you must find it to be quite ironic, all things considered. Surely, you must look back & smile about it.
Juice |
Dennis Coffey (dennis_coffey)
1-Arriviste
Username: dennis_coffey
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 1:24 pm: �� | ��� |
Hi everyone. When I first got started in music and learned how to play in bar bands, we always played James Brown tunes. They were funky and fun to play. James was certainly an innovator. Every generation of musicians learns from the generation that proceeds them. I have learned from R&B, Pop, Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical and beyond. If I found a musician who knew things I wanted to learn and would teach me, I sat down and learned from them or from their records. I have always shared my knowledge with others as well. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 452
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 1:37 pm: �� | ��� |
Hi Dennis! Always a fan of your work from Scorpio to Black Belt Jones to Wings Of Fire. During those days in Motown, did the fellas incorporate any of James' style into their licks?
I've read some "critics" who decried the simplicity of his chord structures, as two chord vamps. I never looked at it that way, I just thought that he was funky! |
johneflat (johneflat)
2-Debutant
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.166
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:06 pm: �� | ��� |
.....heheheh James Brown got me kicked OUT of drum lessons. I was practicing HIS music instead of my music homework, I guess it was pretty mutual. I wanted out and the teacher wanted me out, So it really didn't bother me much |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 475
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 11:58 pm: �� | ��� |
Yeah John, I can imagine that it's much like piano class, where the instructor insists on you playing scales & Mozart, when you only want to play James! The horror of it all. I've got a M1 & a Trinity in the corner. I sure wish that I had learned those scales! |
johneflat (johneflat)
2-Debutant
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.166
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:03 am: �� | ��� |
true dat, Juice, and I really tried, but that music was B-O-R-I-N-G!!!!! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 478
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:16 am: �� | ��� |
Yeah & when I turned 35 or so, I decided to get some books & try to learn to read music & the scales & inversions. Unfortunately, I suffer from Lionel Richieitis & Keith Sweat Syndrome: all of my songs are in the same key. Honestly, only one of the sounded like anything decent. Now, I can't find the time to bother with my keyboards. So...my M1, Trinity & Cubase & Cakewalk programs sit collecting dust. Maybe one day...... |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:57 am: �� | ��� |
.....but just think, the music part of your brain and your soul is being starved to death, nevermind the bells and whistles at first, just set it up, plug in some phones and PLAY!!!! Man, i LOVE the M1, there are sounds in there that are cooling water for the soul!! You are lucky to own one! Just think of it this way, there are people carrying guitars, golf clubs, basketballs and even sitting in the white house who don't have a clue what they're doing.(whoops, did I say that?) Plus songs written in one key doesen't mean thay aren't good songs. The key depends on the musicians and the artists, not the writer. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 485
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 2:21 am: �� | ��� |
Well John, I can honestly say that I don't have a clue. My hands invariably seemed to find the same chords, as those are the ones most pleasing to my ears. In fact, that's one of the problems with so many self contained home made producers. These machines are so easy to program, that many of them don't have the rudimentary music theory. It's usually best to know the rules. If you do, it makes it so much easier to break them tastefully.
I do love the M1 & The Trinity. The only thing that is lacking on the M1 is the drum sounds. They're rather limited. |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.166
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 5:27 am: �� | ��� |
I usually figure out chords in plain acoustic piano, msinly 'cause I don't know much about programming and start playing with sounds after i finish the composition. You know a handy tool? the transposer, you can use your favorite chords in different keys. |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.166
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 5:30 am: �� | ��� |
........also remember the producers and arrangers at Motown broke all kinds of "rules" and made hits! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 493
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 1:22 pm: �� | ��� |
Yes John, that's just what I meant. They knew the rules, therefore, they knew how to break the rules & went against the grain. The foundation was already solid. It's like when I was a DJ. Once I mastered the basics, I could go off into other directions & experiment. The basics are key!! |
Dennis Coffey (dennis_coffey)
1-Arriviste
Username: dennis_coffey
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
| | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 7:47 pm: �� | ��� |
Hi Juicefree20. We never really copied anyone at Motown but we all played funky 9th chords which is what James Brown used in a lot in his tunes. |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.166
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 1:55 am: �� | ��� |
well....I would disagree to the extent that the musicians knew the rules, but the producers didn't, THAT'S why they could go with what they liked, irregardless of "rules". Remember, the dodo bird could fly 'til somebody told him he couldn't. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 517
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:44 am: �� | ��� |
Thanks Dennis, I thought that might have been the case. You guys were great doing what you did!
John: point well taken! It reminds me of the fade of When A Man Loves A Woman. Percy is damn near screeching there & those horns were so terribly off key. A perfectionist would have made them recut it. But, the emotion & feeling was so real, so honest, that the "mistakes" fit like a glove & in fact, makes it resonate even stronger.
Then there was Little Sonny of The Intruders. I'm still waiting for him to remain in key. It didn't matter, Sonny pulled it off & we love his songs. While not perfect in the classical sense, he was real, his performances were from the heart & we felt him.
I guess that I first came to this conclusion by watching The Little Rascals, believe it or not. It was the episode where they wanted to try out for the Radio Show, called Mike Fright. We sat through all of those boring, perfectly trained kids & their contrived performances. They were boring, full of themselves & performed like trained seals. But, The International Silver String Submarine Band came in & played their kazoos, washtub drums & sang from their hearts. How could you not love their enthusiasm. Most importantly, they were real.
Sometimes, honesty is better than the quest for perfection. |
Larry (larry)
3-Pundit
Username: larry
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 67.101.111.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:20 am: �� | ��� |
I'm a bassist born in Detroit. Not famous, but, I've paid my dues (played my Motown, Funk & Blues) and know I can speak.
One of the biggest challenges in playing the Funk and one of the biggest differences between a "typical" JB Funk track vs Motown track is the use of space.
I learned the use of space not from Miles Davis, but, from the JB bassists on songs like �Say it Loud (I�m Black and I�m Proud)� or "Get Up (Sex Machine)". You�ve got to nail the intensity of your notes, then relax�.breathe�watch everything dance and bubble up and BAM! get right back on the hump. This takes place in every bar, every 2 seconds for 6 minutes.
In songs like �Say it Loud�, the end bar lick isn�t such cakewalk and I don�t know a lot of guys who can keep that laid back, swingin� intensity going as did JB�s bass players.
|
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 522
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:27 am: �� | ��� |
Hello Larry! (Wasn't that a TV show...sorry 'bout that)
That was an excellent response & I appreciate you taking the time to explain your experiences. I appreciate you breaking down how the music all comes together the way that that you have...simple & to the point. |
Larry (larry)
3-Pundit
Username: larry
Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 67.101.111.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:42 am: �� | ��� |
Juice,
You're welcome. I would add that most cats I see who play funk really don't get IT. Only the best players can live comfortably in the groove of space, maintainging nuanced, fat grooves. Those who can't usually cover it up with licks, lines & pops, basically over-playing it. |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 37
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:30 pm: �� | ��� |
There ya go, juice! And if "SHE BANGS" can be a hit, I figger we ALL got a shot! you're right about "Man Loves a Woman" technically, that fade is a train wreck, but that rawness grabs you!
Larry: preach on, bro! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 527
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 2:12 pm: �� | ��� |
Larry
That ties in quite nicely with Johns earlier statement about rules. Most of the best stuff is raw, off the cuff & not necessarily perfect. One example that comes to mind is Give It Up Or Turnit Loose. In the measure when the horns play their line & James tells them to start it over again, most of us didn't realize that anything was wrong. Still, I didn't find anything wrong with that line.
I wonder how much good music or innovations have been lost by a producer saying: "You can't do that, that chord doesn't belong there". As you said John, breaking away from conventional ideas can produce some great music.
Regarding When A Man Loves, Jerry Wexler was smart & intuitive enough to know that it worked. Had those lines been "perfect" some of its impact could well have been lost. Think about it: When you're in pain, or in love, it's emotional. Usually, you won't be speaking the king's english.
Within the context of that song, those "errors" actually captured the intenity of the lyrics & the subject matter. In affairs of the heart, you're not always in control. |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 5:59 pm: �� | ��� |
The best part for me is: it feels like the WHOLE BAND is feelin' what Percy feels, ER'BODY is lettin' it out! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 537
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 9:01 pm: �� | ��� |
That's just an example where everyone got caught up in the feeling of that moment. It was as though they were feeling the angst, the fervor of the vocal & said: "F convention, this is what we feel, let's roll with it". |
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.138
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 1:31 am: �� | ��� |
Man I LIVE for moments like that, when you're locked in with your cats and rollin on a groove, it's damn near an out-of-body experience for me. and all without pharmacological aids. I think it's similar to that "runners high" i've heard so much about. |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 554
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 7:48 pm: �� | ��� |
I guess that it's the feeling I get when I hit a big home run, or, make a great catch. It's hard to explain but, damn it sure feels good! |
Larry (larry)
3-Pundit
Username: larry
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 67.101.111.129
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 9:03 pm: �� | ��� |
That feeling: whether it's the catch you made, the groove in the band, seeing the roses bloom, collecting 45's or cleaning the kitchen floor...
It's that sense of accomplishment, achieving a greatness (if momentarily), connecting spiritually with someone or something. It has everything to do with the cosmos and nothing to do with materialism. It's making something from nothing. What else is there to live for?
|
johneflat (johneflat)
3-Pundit
Username: johneflat
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 152.163.252.200
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 3:17 am: �� | ��� |
amen, larry............... |
Sudi Kamau (sudi_kamau)
2-Debutant
Username: sudi_kamau
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.117.198.35
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 4:20 pm: �� | ��� |
I agree with Dennis Coffey. Most guys I know spent a lot more time trying to cop James Brown stuff than Motown. The only thing from Motown that I've noticed rivaling the James Brown camp in terms of instrumentalists trying to pick it up is Jamerson's licks.
The instrumentalists I've known tend to like to play in "the cracks" - going for the more pungent harmonic, rhythmic and timbral effects. James Brown and those guys exploited that kind of thing to the fullest. Motown kind of avoided some of it in the interest of generating cross-over appeal.
James Brown's sound was simplified in the interest of being more visceral, earthy - funky. Those funky 9th chords were a simple matter of exploiting the natural tuning of the top 3 strings of a guitar with a single finger. The one or two chord songs, allowed for concentrating on pure groove. James Brown's thing was joyously uncouth.
Motown simplified in the interest of sweetness and acceptability. Motown used straight beats, played with high energy to be sure, but nevertheless an explicit concession to squares. Stuff was heavily layered and less organic at Motown, and funky 9th chords were generally avoided in favor of sweet little triads - often in root position. But Jamerson played his licks like he didn't give a damn about sweetness. You could feel him over and above everything else in Motown in my book.
Larry said about funk:
"You�ve got to nail the intensity of your notes, then relax�.breathe�watch everything dance and bubble up and BAM! get right back on the hump. This takes place in every bar, every 2 seconds for 6 minutes."
Exactly!!
|
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 580
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 6:02 pm: �� | ��� |
Larry & Sudi!!
Great answers! I think you've pretty much nailed it! |