Soulful DetroitArchives - July 2004 � Gospel Beginnings Of Soul Stars On Record Previous Next

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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 418
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 7:21 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We all know by now that most Classic Soul stars honed their singing skills in The Church before they switched to secular music. While some artists just sang in their local church choirs others actually had careers in Gospel music with groups or as solo acts. Several of them cut singles and even albums along the way! My question to the SDF members is have you guys heard any of these records or do you own them? Has any of this Gospel music become available on CD yet?

Sam Cooke (with the Soul Stirrers) and Aretha Franklin's early Gospel recordings have been well documented and even released on CD but what about the hundreds of other Soul artists who recorded Gospel (solo or in a group) before they were famous? Bobby Womack (and his brothers), Wilson Pickett, Linda Jones, Dionne & Dee Dee Warwick, Cissy Houston & The Sweet Inspirations, Merry Clayton, Judy Clay, Chuck Jackson, Maxine Brown, Madeline Bell, Erma & Carolyn Franklin, Loleatta Holloway (with the Caravans), Candi Staton, Laura Lee, Doris Duke, Al Green, The Staple Singers, The Emotions, Vermetta Royster (of Sisters Love) and hundreds of other future stars recorded as Gospel artists but almost no information is available about their recordings and what gospel groups they were actually in.

SDF members please fell free to share ANY information (or scans) about ANY early Gospel recordings of ANY Soul music star. I'm not sure if there's a book about this subject but there's a need for one because I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would love to hear these early recordings. A reference book or website would make it a lot easier to track down some of this music. Thanks in advance for any info you might have. :-)
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BJL (bjl)
3-Pundit
Username: bjl

Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 217.205.87.151
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:31 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First thing - get "Gospel Records 1943-70" a discography by Bob Laughton and Cedric Hayes. That will form the basis for your research, along with Tony Heilbut's "The Gospel Sound".

Here are a few contributions:
Johnny Adams - Consolators
James Carr - Jubilee Hummingbirds
Little Joe Cook - Evening Star Qt
James Fry - Sunset Travelers
Johnnie Taylor - Highway QCs/Soul Stirrers
Little Johnny Taylor/Bunker Hill - Mighty Clouds Of Joy
Joe Hinton - Chosen GS/Spirit Of Memphis
Ollie Nightingale - Dixie Nightingales
Willie Walker - Redemption Harmonizers
O V Wright - Sunset Travelers/Spirit Of Memphis
Lou Rawls - Pilgrim Travelers/Chosen GS
Jackie Verdell - Davis Sisters
Billy Watkins - Zion Travelers
McKinley Mitchell - Hearts Of Harmony
Otis Clay/Cash McCall - Gospel Songbirds
Joe Henderson - Silver Quintet
Roscoe Robinson - too many groups to list
Kingpins - Kelly Brothers
Theola Kilgore
I've got great footage of a very young Dionne Warwick with a choir but can't remember their name.

Let me know if you need some more information.
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Davie Gordon (davie_gordon)
5-Doyen
Username: davie_gordon

Post Number: 187
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 212.219.250.2
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:45 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re Dionne Warwick's gospel days - might have been
the Gospelaires or the Drinkard Singers.

Re the Dixie Nightingales with Ollie Hoskins -
they eventually became Ollie and The Nightingales
on Stax. I've seen it said that David Ruffin was a short-term member of the group in their early days.

BJL's right - the best source for info. up to 1970 is the Laughton and Hayes book. Its most useful feature is an alphabetical list of the names of group members / groups they sang with.
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BJL (bjl)
3-Pundit
Username: bjl

Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 217.205.87.151
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:25 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Davie - it was definitely a large (mixed?) choir rather than small group that DW was singing with. From Washington, I'm certain. I'll try and check it out.
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glencro (glencro)
3-Pundit
Username: glencro

Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 146.9.113.58
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:05 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer Holliday sang gospel on the original soundtrack album of "Your Arms Too Short To Box With God" before she did Dream Girls...KC & Jo Jo were a part of Little Cedric (KC was Little Cedric) & The Hailey Singers. I have one of their lp's...Glen Jones recorded a few gospel lps with the Moderations or Modulations (somebody help me with that one...I have to dig the lp out)...Kenny Lattimore was featured on William Becton's debut lp (can't think of the title but it featured the song "I'm Encouraged" that crossed over a few years ago..brain is a lil frozen today) before he made his debut...Miki Howard was a member of James Cleveland's Southern California Choir. I was told that she was a featured vocalist on one of the lp's but don't quote me on that (I haven't been able to find the song)..I'll try to think of more
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Reese (reese)
4-Laureate
Username: reese

Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.15.168.90
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:27 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know the Drinkard Singers(which included Cissy Houston and Judy Clay) had a least two album released. A JOYFUL NOISE on RCA, and half of GOSPEL SINGING AT NEWPORT on Verve. Both are unavailable on cd. As a result, both fetch a heavy price on ebay.

Recently, the Collectables label started reissuing some of the Staple Singers gospel albums on Vee Jay in their original form. Some other VJ material is available on various cds. I'm sure the quality of those varies.

Unfortunately,aside from the GREAT DAY compliation, none of the Staples' material on the Riverside label is available. Ditto for their Epic material, except for a couple of compilations.
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
4-Laureate
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 118
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.15.230.2
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 2:22 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BJL, do you know if Tony Heilbut ever did a followup or an update to, The Gospel Sound?
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BJL (bjl)
3-Pundit
Username: bjl

Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 62.253.64.17
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chi Drummer-

I don't know of any follow-up book on gospel by Tony Heilbut although he has continued to write and research gospel music. He had a label (Spirit Feel) about 10+ years ago and they issued some great records with excellent notes.

"The Gospel Sound" has been republished with an updated introduction but I believe that the book itself is pretty much the same.

In around 1986 the English writer Viv Broughton wrote a pretty good overview called "Black Gospel" to tie in with a UK TV series. That went right back the the 17th Century roots and included a lot of contemporary artists like the Clark Sisters.

There are other good books on gospel but they tend to be a bit more academic than the two titles discussed above. If you're still interested, then let me know and I'll post some recommendations.
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
4-Laureate
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 119
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.15.230.2
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 5:12 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks BJL, Heilbut's research ends around the mid '80's. Is there a book that talks about the changes that have taken place in gospel post '80's?
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BJL (bjl)
3-Pundit
Username: bjl

Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 62.253.64.17
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 5:21 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No problem CD.

I'm not aware of any books on post '80s Gospel music in general although I'm sure that several of the bigger stars have their own biographies or autobiographies which will touch on the changes.

Sorry I can't help more, but my love is for the older styles of Gospel music. (I did really enjoy Andrae Crouch when he played London's Royal Albert Hall around 1978 though...)
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 423
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:07 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you everyone for all of this information everyone! This is the first time that I'm hearing about Cedric Hayes' Gospel research books. I did a little research myself on Yahoo and I see that he has two similarly titled but different Gospel reference books. Both are out of print. One is titled "A Discography of Gospel Records, 1937-1971" and another is titled "Gospel Records, 1943-1969: A Black Music Discography". BJL and Davie I'm not sure exactly which book you two are suggesting to me? Do these books include full discographies of the Gospel groups? I'd also like to know which artists sang lead on what particular tunes. Does this book include this info?

BJL, will you also please explain exactly what Tony Heilbut's "The Gospel Sound" is and how it complements the Cedric Hayes book?

This is great. I had no idea that some of these artists were Gospel recording artists! Kenny Latimore, KC & JoJo, Ollie and The Nightingales, Glen Jones! Wow!

Reese, I did know about the Drinkard Singers LP's because of an excellent Judy Clay article that I posted to the forum awhile back. There was even a picture of the "A Joyful Noise" album included in the article. I'd love to hear those albums one day!

One artist in particular that I was curious about was Loleatta Holloway. I know that she started off as a member of The Caravans in the late 60's but I'm not sure exactly what singles she appears on. The reason I ask is my local thrift shop has several Caravans singles that I'd like to own but I'm not sure which ones feature Loleatta and which ones are the early 60's Shirley Caesar era sides.
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BJL (bjl)
3-Pundit
Username: bjl

Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 217.205.87.151
Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 5:57 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rodmann

The difference between the two books is HUGE. The 1937-1971 book is a small volume, published in 1973, which has discographies of around a dozen key artists (Soul Stirrers, Caravans, Sister Rosetta, Caravans a.o.). For years it was the only book available on the subject, but in 1993 it was replaced by the mammoth two volume "1943-1969" set - almost 900 pages. You need this one. It has (where known) group personnel (including roles - lead, tenor, baritone etc), accompanying musicians, recording date/location, matrix #s, original issue details and singer/musician indexes. As with virtually any discography, it's not complete, but it's unlikely that there will ever be anything better. It's hard to find now, although one mail order company in the UK was selling it VERY cheap a year or two back. I'll see if they have any hidden away.

Tony Heilbut's book was (I believe) the first published overview of Black Gospel music and is still a classic. He writes of the roots of the music, the pioneer singers, groups and composers and the (then-current) stars. He conducted many interviews and was also involved behind the scenes with some artists (producing Marion Williams, Bessie Griffin, Claude Jeter, for example) and this gives his writing a personal touch, lacking in many more academic books on Gospel music.

Loleatta was a Caravan from 1967-1971, and according to Hayes/Laughton she's on these records:
"Wade In The Water" (Gospel LP MG3056, 1967)
"Help Is On The Way" (Gospel LP MG3064, 1967)
"Come By Here" (Gospel LP MG3071, 1967)
"Just Like Me" (Gospel LP MG3080, 1968)
"Albertina Walker & The Caravans" (Hob LP HBS287, 1968)
Loleatta sings lead on these 45s - Gospel 1121, Hob 188. Personally, I'd pick up any old Caravans 45s - especially those with Shirley Caesar. She has one of the greatest voices there is, IMO.
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Brother Love (brother_love)
4-Laureate
Username: brother_love

Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 64.174.208.29
Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 1:21 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New Spirit
Vermettya Royster of the Sisters Love (second from right) with the gospel group New Spirit.
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 430
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 7:03 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks BJL. It sounds like I REALLY need these books! It's too bad that their out of print. Just how cheaply was this UK company selling the Cedric Hayes book for? Feel free to contact me at rodmann2981@insightbb.com if you wish. I wouldn't want the book to slip through my fingers before I even get my hands on it! LOL.

BJL, I totally agree with you about Shirley Caesar! I'm very familiar with her 80's and 90's solo material! I've even got an early Caravans recording of the excellent 'Jesus Will Fix It' with either Albertina Walker or Inez Andrews on lead. At the tail end of the song Shirley comes on and blows me away. I was curious about the Loleatta Holloway period of The Caravans because most people don't know that she was a member. I'm just know finding this out. I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled for those sides and albums you pointed out.

That's a great scan Brother Love. I'm not familiar with the group New Spirit. It looks as if that recording is after Vermttya's Sisters Love and Clara Ward Singers days. This is all so fascinating! :-)
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 458
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 7:39 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BJL, will you please contact me at rodmann2981@insightbb.com about the books you suggested. I've found a few copies of the Cedric Hayes book for sale but the company you spoke of might be selling be selling it cheaper. Thanks.

Rod
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~medusa~ (~medusa)
6-Zenith
Username: ~medusa

Post Number: 582
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 68.251.25.157
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:12 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent Thread Rodman...
Gospel gave birth to Soul Music...That's why I don't like it when folks describe music outside of Gospel "Devils' Music". (LOL)
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Sonya Lyles (sdl)
1-Arriviste
Username: sdl

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2004
Posted From: 66.95.16.130
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 12:35 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,

While we are still on the gospel tip I have a question about the DeBarge Family.I understand that before they went to Motown and fame that Bunny Debarge and her beautiful soprano was the lead singer of the Bethel Pentecostal Choir. I suppose her siblings and Abney kin were all in the choir too, since the family is so musical.

Can anyone tell me if there are any recordings of this choir with Bunny as lead singer? I have been searching for a year or two but have come up empty handed.

I know this is not the "Grand Rapids" forum. But I also know that you guys here know everything ;)

Thanks in advance

SDL
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 462
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 2:06 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Medusa. You've got a point. Cissy Houston, Maxine Brown, Bobby Womack and others have talked about how once they started recording "The Devil's Music" it was almost impossible to go back to the church. I personally don't see anything wrong with these artists using their God-given gift to reach more people. It's just that it's hard to accept the occasional Gospel songs from people like R. Kelly and DMX who sing about Jesus one minute but then go back to talking about violence and hot buttered sex on their next single! LOL.

Sonya, I'm not familiar with any pre-Motown DeBarge material but I do know that the entire DeBarge family recorded a Gospel album sometime in the 90's called "Back On Track" for the Truth Ministries label. There is also a self-titled DeBarge Family Gospel album that was recorded for the Light label. I'm not sure when that one was released?

(Message edited by Rodmann on August 27, 2004)
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 466
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 2:41 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have any info on the gospel recording careers of Martha Wash and Izora Rhodes better known as The Weather Girls and Two Tons O' Fun? I've read that they were in a gospel group called NOW (News Of the World) prior to backing Sylvester and then recording their own material. They've always sounded excellent on everything I've heard them sing but anyone that has heard them knows that these girls were born to sing in The Church! I'd love to hear them ripping into some Gospel.

I'm not sure if they're listed in the Hayes and Laughton books because it stops with the year 1969?
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1459
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.163.49.189
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:44 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is Martha Wash at the recent PBS taping.

marthaw
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Rodmann (rodmann)
6-Zenith
Username: rodmann

Post Number: 475
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:06 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for the pic Eli. Let me guess, Martha sang 'It's Raining Men' for the millionth time didn't she? It just burns me up that two vocalists as gifted as Martha and Izora are primarily known for that horrible song have been forced to continue singing it all these years. :-(

The good news is that Miss Wash is still at it and sounds excellent. I saw her on the tv show "Extra" a few months back, performing at some gay pride celebration and she still sounds as good as she ever has! :-)
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Nikki (45rpmgal)
3-Pundit
Username: 45rpmgal

Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.206.46.218
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 1:58 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another excellent source is Blues & Gospel by Robert M. Dixon. But this may be too early for this forum - it dates from 1890 to 1943 artists! For a list of gospel discogaphies, you can check our bibliography section here:

http://members.aol.com/dowopli ves/books.htm

Scroll down awhile till you get to the heading of Gospel Discographies.

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

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