Soulful DetroitArchives - July 2004 � The Way We (Musically) Were Previous Next

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DyvaNaye (westside314)
6-Zenith
Username: westside314

Post Number: 737
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.212.74.198
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:31 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its a subject that is near and dear to my heart, and now stands to become extinct. MUSIC. As a generate some armchair study/philosphy,
I just have one simple statement to make SDF, and looking for some input...
"Will music ever return to the *way it was*, or we subjected to these sounds from pergatory for the rest of our lives?"
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.63.77
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 5:38 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dyva,
Its only gonna get worse before and IF it gets any better.

Most kids today dont want to know about any record with singing on it unless it is whithin the context of rap.
Unfortunately ,and I hate to say this, but a lot of them have very little academic skills,reading skills, let alone understanding and comprehention of music, so therefore when rap is all you know, then rap is what will permeate and pollute our environment for a VERY long time!

When you drive or walk down the street anwhere these days , all you hear eminating from every car speaker system is rap and usually its bullshit rap.

So having said that, please be advised that there are gonna be some tumultuous "musical " times waiting just around the corner.
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Dinelle (dinelle_watson)
5-Doyen
Username: dinelle_watson

Post Number: 229
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 67.35.253.125
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:11 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some kids still listen to old school music.
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1292
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.63.77
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:19 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im sure they do ,Dinelle, but I was speaking of the majority of kids out there .
Can you just imagine what the world would be like without ANY music?
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:24 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dyva,

Unfortunately, I think that this will be the way it will stay. Remember the days when there was a band on just about every block??? It's just not that way anymore. More young people are more interested in being DJs & Rappers. Times & styles have changed.

Remember when we had music class in school. Either you learned to play the flute, trumpet or violin. The one thing that turned off most of us kids, were playing those damn scales over & over & over & over again. Most of us were put off because we were practicing scales & ANCIENT Classical songs & not the music that we loved. It's worse today because, most of our kids are into instant gratification, even more than we were. Due to the age of the remote control, video games, etc, most simply don't have the attention span necessary to deal with learning music. If they can't relate, they get bored.

Then there is the reality of technology. Today, you can buy a cheap sampler & keyboard, hook it up to a computer & be a one man band. There's immediate gratification because the aural results are instantaneous. There's no teacher to get on you if you make mistakes & you get a do over if you do. What's lost is any possibilty of musical interplay or exchanging of ideas. Eventually, you sometimes end up with a guy with songs that all sound alike.

Even IF they were interested, many schools have slashed their budgets & the Arts are always the first thing to take a hit. Many schools here in New York no longer have music programs in school.

Now, from an industry standpoint, it's simply cheaper to go the electronic route. It's like the Disco days, when a club owner would hire groups to sing to tracks. Not as esthetically pleasing, yet satisfying to those who wanted to see their favorite artist(s), especially for young people. It's just a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for an entire band. Hire a sound programmer, add a few synths, a minimum of musicians & you have a whole damn orchestra. Economically it's cheaper.

The days of the Superbands are likely gone forever. Imagine what it must have been like to be a part of a 17 piece band like New Birth Inc., or a 9 piece L.T.D.? Imagine trying to split the proceeds from performances & divvying up royalties. Then there are the inevitable ego clashes, the "too many chiefs" syndrome & all of the various other dynamics involved with keeping a group together.

Then, there's the simple fact that these are the sounds that today's folks are accustomed to hearing. These kids don't want to hear clean, clear bass. They want that electronically distorted bass that rattles their trunks. There's precious little orchestration in today's R&B. Today's music is simply constructed more around rhythm, than orchestration. It used to be a song like Love Ballad was around 78 beats per minute & you danced slow to it. Today, a Hip-Hop or Reggae song can be 78 beats per minute & they're jamming to it. Everything's just dirrerent these days.

For these reasons, musically I don't think that we'll ever see a return to those glorious days of yesteryear.

(Message edited by juicefree20 on August 13, 2004)

(Message edited by juicefree20 on August 13, 2004)
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~medusa~ (~medusa)
6-Zenith
Username: ~medusa

Post Number: 505
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 68.252.9.11
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:30 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rap & Hip Hop is what's happening at this time for this generation of young folks.
There's nothing wrong with Rap, it's how some folks celebrate it and get the wrong messege trying to be like the Rappers or the folks in Rap Videos...not realizing that the Rap Artist is only for entertainment...and a lot of Rap artists don't always live the life they Rap about.
There are certain radio stations that still play only real genuine soul music all across America, after all these years. The way a lot of these young folks are celebrating Rap,(Life Style) how long do you think, how many do you think will be around to keep it "Live"? (Unfortunately).
First of all, education, religion, respect and most of the good qualities of life are no longer important to a lot of todays young...and that includes Females also...and that's sad.
So, Gramma is taking care of the Babies of some of these young folks (that celebrate Rap the wrong way).
Most Gramma's goes to church on Sundays, I've yet to hear Rap Music in a Sunday Morning Worship service...
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1294
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.63.77
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:39 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great posts Medusa and Juice.
Well put.

By the way, we have several Christian rappers in our chrch that actually performed as part of the service.
One of them, Marc Cornelius, I have done some beats for and he is like a Christian Biggie.

he actully is an evangelist and officiated when I got saved, and at the time I didnt know he was a rapper.
then one Sunday at a special service...bam, he just blew us away!
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Alain Nguyen (soulgems)
2-Debutant
Username: soulgems

Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2004
Posted From: 65.166.187.218
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:45 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at the Billboard charts , along with rap, RnB is the hottest selling musical genre.

Nothing wrong with that except R&B is no longer what it used to be.

Rhythm & Blues has morphed into a "mass market/pop/video" industry where image conscious so called "King or Queen or Prince or Princess of RnB" rule.

In my opinion this overexposure will reflect negatively on the whole music genre, as new generations wil tend to assimilate this formula music as Rhythm & Blues.

On the upside, some of the samples used in that music help create awareness in the music of the "originals" like the Nelly song Dilema. BTW,I also think the neo-soul movement is a step in the right direction

But I can't help to be amazed at how true music lovers fight to keep the spirit alive.

Looking at the growing interest with everything soul we might be at the end of a down cycle.

With all the re-issues, releases of never published songs and digital downloads,never in history quality music been more available. The irony is that a lot of these re-issues are bought buy youngsters, hip-hop djs.
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
4-Laureate
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 107
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.14.40.133
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:46 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of you have very valid points. What passes for mainstream R&B may indeed get worse before it gets better, but there is some reason for hope.

I teach a number of students that range in age from 11 to adults. I've been doing it for about five years now and I notice that every once and awhile that light goes on in a student's head and you get a person who becomes just as fanatic a music junkie as most of us on this board. I've introduced students to the works of Al Jackson, Hal Blaine, Benard Purdie, Clyde & Jabo, etc. and some are amazed at what can be done on a drumset if they just use a little imagination. It really strengthens their enthusiasm to know that they can do so much more than play straight time in 4/4. After some exposure to music BEFORE 1980 many kids find that they really love more complex arrangements and melodies. I don't know if it's enough to change anything, but I do know all we can do is plant seeds. You never know what might sprout up in the future.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1889
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 8:13 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear you Chi D. However, would it be economically feasible for the old ways to ever work as it did?? More people equals more money. Will most venues be able to afford to do business that way?
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Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman

Post Number: 1296
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.63.77
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 8:27 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chi,
Have you read the book, "Give the drummer some" by Jim Payne?
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
4-Laureate
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 108
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.14.40.133
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 10:49 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, I'm not sure what asking exactly. I teach privately so I can tailor my approach to the individual student.

Eli, Absolutely. Payne's book is part of the arsenal as well as Zoro's Commandments of R&B Drumming. When I teach Brown's material I also show Clyde's & Jabo's video of the patterns they used on those classic tunes.

I learned those grooves the hard way though. I bought those records one at a time as they were released and played them over and over again until I got the licks right.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1900
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 12:25 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chi D,

Basically, I'm asking this: Given the economics of maintaining a band & of hiring an entire band for shows, would it be economically realistic for those old days to ever be revisited?

For many bands, it's just not economically feasible for them to put together a touring band. This is especially true for many of our classic bands. Economically, there never seems to be enough money to go around in order for them to keep it together.
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Chi Drummer (chidrummer)
4-Laureate
Username: chidrummer

Post Number: 109
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 24.14.40.133
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 1:31 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, now I get it (duh). Shoot, even P-Funk isn't as big as it used to be is it? The last time I was in a band that had more than 6 members was when I was in college in Ohio. And yeah, booking gigs that pay all those people something is a bitch. My band now is a four to five piece group playing jazz and you'd be amazed how hard it is to find well paying work for five people in Chicago! Sometimes it seems like someone deliberately set up the stages and the pay structure of most the clubs to accomodate nothing larger than a trio (and there's lots of working trios here).
twelve piece bands(or larger) for the most part have disappeared along with big bands for the exactly the same reasons. For those days to come back we'd first have to kill all the DJ's and their equipment :-)

What does seem to work, for a limited time, are the reunion tours. But, only when you get to see ALL of the original members. EWF came through town with Chicago a few weeks ago and didn't sell out, but what if both groups toured with all of their original members? That brings a certain air of anticipation to the party that would probably sell more tickets.

Personally, I miss the days of larger bands. I doubt that kind of thing will ever happen again in quite the same way.
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Gil (gil)
4-Laureate
Username: gil

Post Number: 107
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 68.219.146.152
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 4:27 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DITTO to everything Eli said (as usual!).
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Richard Felstead (felstead2001)
4-Laureate
Username: felstead2001

Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 128.40.91.183
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 4:38 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, I don't think music will ever be as it was.

Why should it ?

As with all things, music has to move on. For all the reasons that have been mentioned by Bobby and Juice, times have changed.

Like so many of you, I don't always like the changes, because we know what music CAN sound like.

At the end of the day, I think we should all be grateful for being born when we were. We have all heard proper music from the beautiful melodies of Gershwin to the outstanding production values and lyrical content of the label that was Philly.

It's interesting looking at the Stylistics thread. There's no doubting the fact that Russell has an outstanding voice, but would that style of singing be accepted en mass now?.

I doubt it, and that's no slur on Russell at all. It's just that times have changed.

Some of our artists have tried to go down the R&B route, the Isley's, George Benson etc and they have not been recieved at all well.

Why, because we love them for that familiar sound.

Earth, Wind & Fire's last album "The Promise" was accepted so well because even though it was a new album, the sound had remained the same.

Many bands and artists are still making good quality music, but they are now in the minority, which means they need your support even more.

Modern R&B has become the new "pop".Watered down lyrics and a tune that's been sampled.

Yuk.

Mostly.

However, if music went back to the way it was, most kids would not be able to relate to it, in the same way most of us can't relate to rap.

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