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Satipe (satipe)
2-Debutant
Username: satipe
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 66.185.84.74
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 6:45 pm: �� |   ��� |
This may have been a topic before but I am fairly new here - and enjoy the reading. I have always wanted to know who makes a song a hit? Is it the producer, the song writer or the performer. Sometimes, all of the above are one person but many times, it is three different entities. Would The Temptations, Dramatics, etc. have been as popular if they wrote their own music? Would HDH be as popular without The Four Tops and Supremes? Could a song like "My Girl" have been as popular if The Originals did it instead of The Tempts? I've always wondered this... |
~medusa~ (~medusa)
6-Zenith
Username: ~medusa
Post Number: 412
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 68.250.3.149
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 8:23 pm: �� | ��� |
Well, all I can say is, all of the above...BUT sometimes it's who's doing the singing. For example, look what happened at Motown...The Funk Bros. made all that Fabulous noise behind Marvin, Tempts, Tops, Supremes etc...and here it is in the 2000's, and they're just getting their due.
Then sometimes, when artists have the best managers, promoters etc., backing them, get hooked up with the top gigs, and (IF)they're popular already...that same artist can do a terrible job on a song, but just because they are who they are, folks will buy it.
Flip the script, another person can record and do a Fabulous job, but if they don't have the pull, the popularity or just not enough exposure, then sometimes, they don't make it.
The writers are the foundations, the producers show how to put in action, the musicians put it into action, the vocalist, well, the rest is Hx (history).
Ok, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, I never said I was in the music business, oops, I mean music industry. (smile) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 10:44 pm: �� | ��� |
Hi Satipe,
These days, that's such an easy answer. Today, so much music is fad driven. It's like the worst of the Disco Music. So much of that was hot as hell & sold at that specific time. However, after that point in time, it was no longer relevant & certainly doesn't stand the test of time.
Some records just come out at the right time. It captures the mood & imagination of the people at the right time & space.
First, we need to define the word "hit". Are we talking about a song that is a hit, yet loses its relevance & appeal as time goes by? Or, are we talking about a song that remains in our hearts & minds forever? Some hits are made for the dance floors only & are not written for longevity. These are usually groove oriented, with little thought or emphasis on lyrical content. In such a case, it's usually the producer who is key & if the singer is great, it's a plus. As we've seen time & time again, many hits suffer from subpar vocal performances.
On the other hand, if we're talking about timeless classics, I believe that it is a combination of all of the above. However, I would lean more toward the writers & producers. The writers are the ones who conceive the sentiment & feel of the music & lyrics. Without them, you have nothing to work with.
After that, the arranger fills in the canvas with their embellishments & ear candy. Finally, the producer in my mind, pulls in all together, deciding what works best in their humble opinion.
Now, a powerful vocal & harmony performance is paramount, without a doubt. However, look at the great writers & producers. Hits seem to follow them around...Gamble & Huff, HDH, Norman Whitfield, Eli & Barrett, McFadden & Whitehead, Linda Creed, Thom Bell, Phil Hurrt...just to name a few. Their songs are recorded in different genres & they have had massive success with multiple artists. In my opinion, they're the lynch pins & catalysts to most of the success.
Now, most artists simply do not produce themselves well. For example, you mentioned The Temptations. Do you remember their LP "The Temptations Do The Temptations"? That was their attempt to produce themselves. How many hits, or timeless songs came from that LP? Would you consider any songs from that LP to be on par with those recorded with Smokey or Norman???
Unfortunately, great singers do not necessarily translate into great writers or producers. In most cases, though it may frustrate them, some artists should stick to what they do best....sing.
To illustrate the importance of writers & producers in the musical equation, consider how many excellent artists careers have been marred by poor, lackluster production. I won't call any names out, but I'll ask this: How many groups suffered after losing the creative skills of a Thom Bell? How did The Delfonics, The Spinners, et.al fare without Thom's stewardship???
How well did The Four Tops or The Supremes fare on Motown once HDH left? Though they had hits, they weren't as consistently excellent, as they were with HDH.
How about Jan Bradley & the huge Curtis Mayfield hit, Mama Didn't Lie? What happened to her blossoming career once Curtis refused to work with her anymore, after a publishing dispute with Chess???
How about The Dells without Bobby Miller? Their LPs from around 1975 to present, had nowhere the consistency or overall excellence as the ones with Bobby Miller & Charles Stephney. They suffered from producers trying to fit square pegs into round holes & producers that didn't produce them according to THEIR strengths.
A great singer is nothing, without a great song to sing, or without the right instrumental support & lyrics that hit you in the heart. Great voices or not, without that, you're not The Temptations, or The Delfonics, or The Dells......you're New Kids On The Block!!!
(Message edited by juicefree20 on August 06, 2004) |
Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.163.25.185
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:23 pm: �� | ��� |
I'd like to say that in addition to what brother Juice had posted, you need massive airplay and massive sales to make a hit record.
You can have the most wonderful and well written and produced song in the world, but without massive airplay and sales you have nothing.
It's MUCH harder today than it ever was and just to get a record going could cost upwards of $200,000.
So, if anyone out there has a need to get in the game..faggeddabout it..keep your day gig!! |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:23 am: �� | ��� |
Yes Brother Bobby,
'Tis true, 'tis true. How many times have we seen inferior songs, with deep pocketed labels behind them, absolutely crush far superior songs? Conversely, how many times have we seen a great song on a small label, wither on the vine due to lack of distribution?
These days, I think that it's even worse. The majors have gobbled up just about any indie worth anything. Now, there are basically 3 labels controlling damn near everything. The thing that makes it worse is that these conglomerates are not merely in the RECORD business. They're in the ENTERTAINMENT & ELECTRONICS business as well.
As such, they will spend massive dollars to push the product & artists that they choose to push, as dictated by their market studies. It's pretty damn hard for the little guy to break through these days. In this new Music industry, a Berry Gordy would have had some very rough going as an indie owner. It makes me wonder just how many Berry Gordys' are being suffocated by the big three & their dominance??
Yes Bobby, it's pretty damn tough these days & I wonder just how much great music we're missing out on. Further proof of one truth....
MONOPOLIES SUCK!!! |
Rodmann (rodmann)
5-Doyen
Username: rodmann
Post Number: 340
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 6:01 am: �� | ��� |
Medusa, I'm SO GLAD that you bought up the fact that some artists are rewarded with hits even though the song and their performance is crap, simply because of who they are. Once you have been in the mainstream for long enough you can almost do no wrong (for a little while at least) because you have created a fan base. The quality of the music has almost nothing to do with your popularity. Look at Usher. With his latest album he's the first artist to have 3 songs in Billboard's Pop Top 10 at the same time. Now will someone tell me what is so great about that garbage that he's come out with that would justify him having 3 Top 10 hits at the same time? Please!
We had a topic like this not too long ago and I'm still convinced that it all comes down to PROMOTION! The people will buy almost ANYTHING if you give it lots of promotion. It doesn't matter what it sounds like! All you have to do is convince a large amount of people that everyone else loves a certain song or artist and they will all jump on the bandwagon so they won't be left out! It's sad really. And I don't think that this is a new thing. It's always been this way. That's why we are all always going on and on about what artist should've been bigger and what excellent songs should've been hits. Some of the unknowns and also-rans were much more talented than the stars but they just didn't get the promotion.
The only difference between the music biz of yesterday and the one today IMO is that the majority of the selected few who got the promotion in the 60's and 70's had talent and today almost no one has any!  |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 1708
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:45 am: �� | ��� |
Hey Rod,
That's true but consider that now 3 labels have a stranglehold on the industry. That's damn near a monopoly & as such, it's a hell of a lot harder for the little guy these days to make inroads. In that respect, it's far worse today. There's a whole lot more money involved & the stakes are higher. It used to be that the artists & producers were the torch bearers for the music. These days, the marketing folks do.
Just look at American Idol & how they market their contestants to the public. They even tried to do their version of Beach Blanket Bingo with (ERRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH) Justin & Kelly (ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGH HHHHHH!!!!!!!)
That's why almost everything sounds the same these days. They have a dream & I guarantee you this: there would be much more great music if it was left in the hands of REAL music men, instead of the CEOs of home electronics, motion pictures, potato chips & orange juice companies that own these record labels.
Music ain't like Lay's anymore. Remember, nobody could eat just one? Well, these days, if music was potato chips, no one would eat 'em but kids. I guess that's fitting since Trix are for kids anyhoo. |
Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman
Post Number: 1088
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.236.35.84
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:07 pm: �� | ��� |
Its brainwashing, en masse, to a bunch of vapid, lame brained numbskulls who just "follow the leader" and have no mind of their own!!
Plus, this music has less shelflife than a cup of yogurt! |
soulseeker (soulseeker)
1-Arriviste
Username: soulseeker
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2004
Posted From: 192.94.3.10
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:19 pm: �� | ��� |
Just like the recording industry, Radio (Clear Channel) and television (Viacom-MTV, VH1, BET)
are pretty much monopolized as well. Even if you get a record made you still have to get it played on the radio and get a video into the rotation. Video is the marketing tool for record companies now a days. They don't need singers and musicians anymore. All they need is someone who can make and sell records as cheaply as possible. All they need is a sample and a catchy hook pretty girls and you've got a hit, LOL! It doesn't matter what Artist you plug in there.
As to the original question, My Girl although it was written by Smokey, that song was pretty much all Temptations at least the vocals. They structured it themselves. Smokey gave them the song (according to Ruffin and Kendricks) and they put it together (background, harmonies etc.) the way they wanted it.
(Message edited by Soulseeker on August 06, 2004) |
Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 2:14 pm: �� | ��� |
Hello music fans!!!
Considering the advances in technology & their dominance in the music field, I now boldly predict the next wave of the future. I hereby give to you...........
COMPUTER GENERATED SINGERS!!!!!
YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, COMPUTER GENERATED SINGERS!!!
The labels won't have to pay royalties, agents or lawyers fees. No contracts to deal with, none of that. Nothing but pure profits!!! Think of the possibilities: No more ego-centric artists to deal with, no more drug addicted artists, no travel fees, no roadies, no need to hang folks off of balconies, no scandals & no more divaship.
No more artists driving themselves into bouts with bulemia or anorexia, while trying to satisfy the demands of record label executives, afraid of any woman larger than a size 3 1/2. No more uncomfortable confrontations with rappers (who were originally from the suburbs) "keepin' it real, yo" for the hood. No more shootouts, there'll be none of that in this musical utopia!
Yes folks, they'll simply punch up the body type, style & fad that they want & VIOLA!!!! Instant singer!!! No more Star Search, no more American Idol. They have done studies that show what the kiddies want & by God, they'll give it to them, one way or the other!!! (Cue theme from The Patty Duke Show..."Still, they're singers, identical singers & you'll find. They look alike, they dance alike, at times they even sing alike. You can lose your mind, when singers are ten of a kind....)
Yes folks, one day, you too may be able to create your own perfect singer, right from your own home. And you know what??? These kids will love it!!! Having a party??? ZAP!!!! For a small fee, you can have your favorite star downloaded through your modem. Add a touch of WinZip...."PRESTO-CHANGO...SHA ZAAM"!!!!! Instant group!!
Remember that if this happens, JUICE told you so!!!
"Are the phasers on Spock?....Bones.....did you check the atmospheric pressure?.....Scotty, beam us up!!!!"
 |
soulseeker (soulseeker)
2-Debutant
Username: soulseeker
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2004
Posted From: 192.94.3.10
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 2:18 pm: �� | ��� |
Yeah, Juice that post is ingenious.
They might as well put the last nail in the coffin of live concerts. Ticket sales for concerts are at an all time low anyway. |
soulseeker (soulseeker)
2-Debutant
Username: soulseeker
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2004
Posted From: 192.94.3.10
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 2:24 pm: �� | ��� |
JuiceFree wrote:
"Now, most artists simply do not produce themselves well. For example, you mentioned The
Temptations. Do you remember their LP "The Temptations Do The Temptations"? That was their attempt to produce themselves. How many hits, or timeless songs came from that LP? Would you consider any songs from that LP to be on par with those recorded with Smokey or Norman??? "
Not that I disagree with your point but the Temptations that produced this CD aren't the same ones that sang My Girl. Although I'm not saying the C5 would have been better producers and writers but they are different singers. |
Eli (phillysoulman)
6-Zenith
Username: phillysoulman
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 70.16.130.2
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 12:56 am: �� | ��� |
Juice, I share your dream!
BTW, I wonder if South Shore Commission recorded Free Man just for you(smile)
And...VIOLA!!!!Thats funny. |
Rodmann (rodmann)
5-Doyen
Username: rodmann
Post Number: 347
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 12.223.151.165
| | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 2:42 am: �� | ��� |
I totally agree with your posts Juice. You made an excellent point about the music biz no longer being in the hands of real musicians and experts. The problem is that this has been going on for so long that most young music fans wouldn't know real musicianship, good singing and excellent production if you slapped them in the face with it!
The "computer generated singers" theory is scary but it looks like that's where we're headed if the government doesn't start to break up some of these monopolies. Computers are already being used in the studio to make thin voiced singers like Ashanti, Britney Spears, Justin Timberfake and J-Ho sound less horrible than they actually do.
Soulseeker I'm glad that you brought up the fact that Viacom owns ALL the major music video channels. MTV, VH1, BET and even the Country Music video channel CMT! BET went to the dogs as soon as Viacom purchased it in the mid 90's. Years ago I took pride in the fact that BET didn't just play ANYTHING like MTV did but that all changed when it was bought out by Viacom. Suddenly it was all about Rap music with lots of pretty strippers in the videos. And that was the last straw that broke the back of Real Black Music! It's pathetic. |
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