| Author | Message | ||
  NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Which of these 2 are more important or does it vary from artist to artist...Questions to you all...1- How many artist can you recall that have had great careers due to production and material even though their true talent is questionable ? 2- How many artist can you recall that have had their careers sabotaged by bad production and material, even though they were very talented ? | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 4-Laureate Username: paladin Post Number: 137 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
1. Janet Jackson 2. Temptations NY-Dell I think it varies and its one hell of a question. Frankly I had a great deal of difficulty with the second part of your question. I am not sure if I could put it in a "box" but probably a lot of the one hit wonders would fit into that category. It would probably be easier to judge on a body of work which is why I listed the folk that I did. Michael Jackson/Ouincy Jones Janet/Jam & Lewis Tempts/Smokey/Norman W. VS whoever......I know there are probably many SDF memebers who can give you chapter and verse and far better examples, but agin I think your question is great food for thought and lets not even get into these Spice Girl/Milli Vanelli frauds that we have become so commonly accustomed too...............:-) | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Kdubya; where would put Freddy Jackson, or David Ruffin after the Temptaions, or Jeffrey Osborne after LTD | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 841 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.20.145 |
The song is King | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 52 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Eli: There are just some artist who don't do a song justice, no matter how GREAT the song is.... | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 4-Laureate Username: paladin Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
Funny I agree with both of you. David was fine, I really like his sides with Don Davis producing. Freddie Jackson: you made your own point. Jeffrey Osborne probably could have done better. I think there are many more varibles to consider, maybe they (artists)just didn't want to sing anymore or have perosnal issues that preclude sustained performance.....Chaka Khan, Chaka Khan........Whitney anyone ? | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 54 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Kduya: This is why we have producers.... many artist should not have creative freedom imagine if Berry would have let Marvin Gaye do what he wanted to do....there would have been no marvin....He'd would have alway's been a drummer. Michael Jackson who records many songs for a CD was doing fine solo work when others made the suggestions on content for him...but shot his self in the foot when he started making the decision his self. Your right about Osborne, could have and would have done better with different material...but tell me when a person comes from a group and goes solo..they can go solo and keep a group sound why do so many change....Dennis Edwards didn't change and it worked really good for him | ||
Spyder Turner (spyder_turner) 3-Pundit Username: spyder_turner Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 69.241.245.245 |
ONE CAN HAVE ALL THE TALENT IN THE WORLD BUT WITHOUT THE RECORD NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT YOU. A HIT PRODUCTION AND SONG GIVES ONE EXPOSURE TO THE MASSES | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
I think it works both ways....you can have the best songwriters, arrangers and production staff in the business, but the only thing you'll be know for is a person who screwed up great song....and have people your whole career wishing to hear other artist do your work. | ||
Destruction (destruction) 5-Doyen Username: destruction Post Number: 199 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.173.224.20 |
Excellent ? NYDell. Kb, I liked your first response. Rather than answer, I have a related question. In today's musical environment, is it possible for talent to overcome mediocre material or production? I don't think so, but am open to other thoughts. | ||
Chi Drummer (chidrummer) 3-Pundit Username: chidrummer Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 24.14.41.10 |
Question 1: Britney Spears, comes to mind. Question 2: Aretha Franklin. Great producer/songs = Great album. Bad producer/songs = shlock! | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Destruction; first of all it's not that much good material around...cause there's no one to sing it. It seems to me that most stuff is electronic which is easier to sing to....A live band can expose a singer for what he/she really his...studio technology comes into play in a big way..things can be done now that were inpossible to do 10-15 years ago....and finally it's the new buying public which "IN MY OPINION" is the most musically uneducated generation ever. Good music today is "visual" sex, fashion and spectacle, is what determines how far you race up the charts today, most of today's buyers truly, honestly don't know what good is...Good vocalist are called "throwbacks" good material is called "old school"....sad but true. The artist that can truly sing today ain't got no deal and won't get one if they don't fall within the profile thats set up for today's music buyers. | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 842 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.20.145 |
If you can take a song and do it in all commercial genres i.e pop, r&b , country, rock etc you can almost guarantee that it is a great song and a hit song..eventually. | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 4-Laureate Username: paladin Post Number: 142 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
Ny-Dell I think there is good material around but the way the business is run you probably won't get to hear it because no one wants to produce it, hence we get overloaded with fraudulent singers and groups that can be manipulated and manufactured at minimun cost for maximum return. Although I have noticed an abundance of local "major market" radio shows that cater to the music we so often discuss on this forum: Motown, Philly Soul, Chicago Soul, L A. Funk.... These songs/artists have withstood the test of time (good material/good producers) and have a built in audience thats way different than the Spears/Timberlake/Timbaland/Pi ffyPuffy crew. The music that we grew up on was produced and performed differently as you all have noted, but the artists were very serious about there craft, there is no way that the Ojays wanted to go on after the Temptations unless they brought something for their ass. These groups, from Gladys,Impressions, Stylistics, Dramatics (et al)worked long and hard practicing their craft not just to sing with house bands but orchestras. They knew they had to be able to bring it to the live performance as well as excell in the studio. Since everything runs in cycles I'm sure that it won't be long before real music by real artists becomes vogue again. If it doesn't then I'll have to be satisfied listening to the music in my collection and whats left of what they commonly refer to as old school radio. In some regards it's a dam shame, look at what they've done to our songs........... Kdubya | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
Kdubya: I agree, I tried to believe that the reason for shows like Star Search & American Idol was to find truly talented people to take the place of some of these so called "Artist" today, and return the industry around, but after hearing some of their "Professional" material and learning that Missy Elliot may produce Fantasia....I guess I was wrong. I don't see the cycle going back to yester years | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 859 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.20.145 |
Imo, Missy Elliot is a joke. Whats the appeal? Her songs suck and all sound the same, and she's no beauty queen, so whats the deal? | ||
Richard Felstead (felstead2001) 4-Laureate Username: felstead2001 Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 128.40.91.183 |
To answer your question Bobby, I believe it's just hype, that most are suckered into believing. I don't rate her either. We all know there are many great singers out there, who frankly, just don't get the breaks thesedays, or are harder to market, so they fall by the wayside, or have to finance their own releases, going down the independant route. Either way, it's tougher for them, which is a crying shame. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1532 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
What we all have to remember is that most music produced today is not created with longevity in mind. What most of these folks are trying to do is get that Platinum hit by hook or crook. Most of todays major producers are not the skilled lyrical & musical craftsmen/women of yesterday. Most of them don't understand the intricacies of subtlety....musical, lyrically or otherwise. They don't seem to be in it to write timeless songs that will be recorded over & over, in various genres. Then again, how can you write a timeless classic, when you copied your song FROM a timeless classic??? Most of todays producers are former DJs or have grown up in the SP1200/M1 Triton generation. They don't know about woodshedding or the interplay between musicians bouncing ideas off of one another. They sequence & that in of itself pretty much makes their type of production a one-man band approach. I could almost quarantee that they wouldn't know a flatted fifth from a fifth of Old Granddad. Do they know about the tension of a sus4 chord & its application? Do they know a diminished 9th & its function within a song? Do they know about chord voicings & inversions? Do they know the circle of fifths? Do they know that you just don't stick in a "Woo wooo wooo wooo" just because you feel like it. They also don't seem to realize that you have to accentuate the main idea of a lyric. These folks far too often place stress on the least important parts of the song. For many of these songs, there's no build, no release, no cartharsis. It's just like one 4 minute race to the end & sometimes, they seem to lose their way. My point is: DO THEY KNOW MUISIC??? It's so easy to sample sounds that they don't seem to do anything but rehash the sounds of the Soul masters in search of Platinum. Look at Teena Maries recent hit. It sampled Al Greens', Love Is A Beautiful Thing & that was a mere ALBUM cut!!! That original groove was so bad that even though it was an LP cut, it was a quality song!! If you forbade some of these guys from building their "hits" around samples of the 70s & 80s, you'd have a track full of programmed beats & the sound of silence. Most of todays' music is similar to the music released during the Disco Era. Though there was a great deal of really great Disco music, there was a lot of folks who tried to cash in on Disco, with no pretense of creating timeless classics. It was an quick attempt at a money grab, nothing more, nothing less. That what much of today' music is like......just for the moment!! (Message edited by juicefree20 on July 29, 2004) (Message edited by juicefree20 on July 29, 2004) | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 897 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.22.60 |
Hey Juice, Do you think that any of these so called "producers" would know what catharsis is, eh?? | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1549 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Yeah Bobby, it's Catwomans' cousin from the Bronx. Rumor has it that she programs beats & purrs hooks....RRRRRRRRRRRRR Batman!!! AH YEAH, AH YEAH, LADY CATHARSIS ON THE MIKE & THIS IS MYYYYYYYYY HOWWWWWWWWSE  Then again, rumor has it that it's the latest in Bling-Bling beverages. "YO MAN, CAN A GET A PINT OF HENNY, A PINT OF CRISTAL......OH YEAH, LET ME GET A MAGNUM OF CATHARSIS. YO, MY MAN TOLD ME THAT IT'S THE BOMB, IT'S THE BOMB!!!!! AND THE HONEYS LOVE IT!!!" | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 905 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.163.22.60 |
Yo JF, you a mad funny dude, yo!! Where can I cop me a taste, yo?? | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1555 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 56.0.96.18 |
YO, MY HOMEY SAID THAT YOU GOTTA TAKE IT SKRAIT TO DA HEAD. YOU MIX IT WITH GAS, IT'S TO DIE FOR!!! YA HEARD!!! Gotta get some Catharsis dere boyyyeeee |
