| Author | Message | ||
  GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl) 5-Doyen Username: gogogirl Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 69.1.9.65 |
Evening All, I know there was a topic on this already - but that one included the Temptations. What about this question as it pertains to the Supremes only? I truly feel that Berry and Motown would not have been as big and successful without the Supremes. TIMING - after all - is everything. How about you all? We have to admit that as far as the International stage goes - this group put Motown on the map - although The Four Tops were bigger in Europe in the long run. I remember as a young girl listening to this group. My parents gave and attended parties whilst the Supremes were at their peak - and I learned their music during this time. Again - how important was this group to Motown's success? We can mention Diana - but I think for once - we should just concentrate on the original trio - for surely - "It Took Three" to make this group the standout for Motown that it became. http://www.warr.org/supremes.h tml http://www.nostalgiacentral.co m/music/supremes.htm "Say You - Say Me." | ||
Kev-Lo (7273747576) 4-Laureate Username: 7273747576 Post Number: 161 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 4.231.234.83 |
Hi this is Kev-Lo I think Motowm would still be the icon it was,even without the Supremes because you still had The Temptations which is one or if not the greatest group of all time.And let us not forget the soul pioneer of them all Smokey Robinson.The Supremes were great but I don't think they were the main icons of Motown,That's just my opinion | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1471 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Hello all, Well in my considerably humble opinion, one could answer that either yes, or no. On the one hand, Motown had so many talented people that they would have had success. There was no way that much talent would have been able to be stifled. On the other hand, The Supremes gave them INTERNATIONAL success as well. The Beatles praised them from sun up to sundown. This helped Motown to gain WORLDWIDE notice & acceptance. I don't believe that they would have made the inroads that they did had it not been for The Supremes. While the other groups were truly great, The Supremes gave them elegance & knocked down doors that the rest followed through. Sometimes, greatness is not enough. It takes a certain type of charisma to reach the masses. The Supremes did just that. At that time, they were neck in neck with The Beatles for Chart supremacy, While the others made great records & had major hits, for whatever reason, The Supremes were a notch above them & their reach extended far beyond their primary base, i.e. the Black audience. I would say that although Motown would have been successful, without the world wide acceptance that The Supremes garnered, they would not have made those inroads into the hearts of the mainstream. You must take into consideration the context of those times. That factor cannot be ignored. The fact that The Supremes were also female has something to do with it. Regardless of how well mannered the male artists were, the fact is that they were still BLACK men in those turbulent times. These were young strapping 6 foot men, in those days, men like that were still considered a potential threat. The Supremes, on the other hand were classy, elegant, FEMALES, as non threatening as they come. It was a hell of a lot easier for them to break through doors that the guys would have had more difficulty doing. The Supremes had the right combination of talent, class, looks & charisma to get the job done in those turbulent times. They were the right girls at the right time & they helped catapult Motown into places that would have took years to break into without them. | ||
Gil (gil) 3-Pundit Username: gil Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 68.223.12.142 |
If the Supremes didn't exist, Mr.Gordy probably would have focused his attention on one of the many other girl groups in Motown. They would have been successful...maybe not AS successful as the Supremes, but it probably would have been close. I don't think the difference in sales would have prevented Motown from reaching "icon" status. | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 830 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.236.47.183 |
It was "in the cards" for Berry Gordy to succeed no matter what and the Supremes were just an important cog in the wheel. | ||
C Bell/Eric (c_belleric) 1-Arriviste Username: c_belleric Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 4.165.0.101 |
I think The Marvelettes, Martha and The Vandellas, The Velvelettes, and others could of pulled off those songs just as well as The Supremes. Would of Motown left Detroit if it was not for Diana? Was it because Diana wanted to be an actress? Motown was great because there was a musical assembly line with everyone doing their part the Detroit way. The Funk Brothers were the true unsung of the whole bunch. | ||
sea (sea) 3-Pundit Username: sea Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
I agree w/Eli...it was in the cards for Berry. He had an original concept at the time which included talent, grooming and education to create a package for the artist which in turn increased the odds of their success. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1474 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
While I agree with everyone about Berrys' careful planning, gromming, etc., a closer examination shows that not all were as accepting of such. For all of the grooming, many of Motowns' stars bristled under Berrys' control. How about David & Martha, Marvin, Eddie, Flo & even years later, Diana. At one point or another, all of these stars bristled at Berrys' control & handling of them & their careers & things such as not being able to write or produce themselves, money, etc. If you can recall some of the comments made about groups such as The Contours, you will realize that even Berry knew that some of his talent would not be able to play the game the way that it had to be played, in order to get where he was trying to go. As I said, talent isn't everything. I liken it to the situation when Jackie Robinson broke the color line. Jackie & other Negro League stars readily admitted that there were players more talented than Jackie. Why was Jackie chosen??? Because he was the right combination of talent, skill, education & more importantly, temperment. Though there were players more talented, those players temperments were a detriment to accomplishing the goal. A sculptor needs pliable clay to fashion a work of art. The more pliable the clay, the better the result. Whereas, Berry could have chosen from hundreds to accomplish his goals, he knew that The Supremes in general & Diana in specific, were willing to do whatever necessary to blow up. They were willing to go the extra mile. Mary Wells was his first female star & everyone though that she would have lead Motown to the promised land. We saw how that developed when her boyfriend got involved & helped turn her attention from Motown. Not the best career move for her, was it? Basically, Berry knew that these girls were not going to let ANYTHING or ANYONE sway them from their appointment with success. I believe that it was their single-mindedness & willingness to be molded that was the key. He could have chosen any of the other girls, yet he didn't. Berry's no dummy, there was a reason that he didn't. For his purposes, like it or not, it seems that he made the right decision. Many are called, few are chosen. The Supremes were chosen. Of all of the other established & better connected (i.e. major labels)girl groups, The Supremes were the most successful. Motown was still an indie. There had to be something about those girls that allowed then to catapult over more established stars as The Shirelles, etc. Superior music is one factor. The other is that je' nais se' quoi, the X factor. For whatever reasoin, these girls simply connected with the public in ways that the others simply did not. Do I understand it, frankly, no I don't. Were there better singers, hell yes. However, the world simply had a love affair with these 3 girls & it continues to this day. If ever Diana, Mary & Cindy got together again, their fans would go nuts. It would truly be an event. I still feel that Motown would have had major success. Just not on the scale that they had with The Supremes. It Berry believed that it would have happened the same way with different personnel, it would have happened that way. I, for one, would have love to have found out how things would have worked out with different artists leading the way. I would've loved to see Gladys, The Marvelettes, Brenda Holloway, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, The Spinners & The Originals have the SAME opportunity & support that The Supremes had. I wonder how things would have worked out. | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 4-Laureate Username: paladin Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
I'm with you Juice, with or without the Supremes or The Temptations, Motown had enough talent to go around, remember Martha Reeves, Marvelettes, Contours, Four Tops, Smokey, Jr Walker all had hits prior or were established entertainers before The Tempts and Supremes and they were smoking............. | ||
NY-DELL (dell) 3-Pundit Username: dell Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 38.117.188.10 |
The Greatness of Motown, was Berry's destiny, just think of all the groups he could have signed instead of the Supremes who would have been just as great...look at Patti LaBelle and & the Bluebells, imagine them with Berry rather than the Supremes...Motown wouldn't have suffered. | ||
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl) 5-Doyen Username: gogogirl Post Number: 214 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 69.1.9.65 |
Greetings All, Well all my hard work has caught up with me. Just returned from the doctor's office. Bad case of bronchitis and a sprained muscle all up and down my right arm. I'm sure the latter is from all the packing - lifting and moving of boxes and things before and after my move. But - I will be fine. I got a shot of cardizone(sp?). First time in me life. LOL! Now I'm off to bed after taking an anit-infammatory and tylenol #3. LOL! Now back to the Supremes. I agree w/the Juice man. Sure - one can say that Berry would have still had the success - yet noone has actually responded concerning on what level did the Supremes put Motown on the map - period. Now either they did that - or they didn't. Sure Barrett Strong, Smokey and Mary Wells started Motown's success - but did they really and truly blow it all the way up? Yes - the Temptations and the Four Tops helped in a big way in their contribution to Motown's success - in the middle sixties right on the Supremes's heels, yet on their own - would they have been responsible for making it the ICON it became? IMO - when the Supremes hit - they were on par with the Beatles - and we know how hot and huge the Beatles became. The Supremes were the feamle version of the Beatles. The Supremes blew up even more after appearing on The Ed Sullivan show. Sure - Stevie made it on the show first didn't he (with Fingertips) - or am I wrong about that one? Either way - there had never been an all girl group that crossed over racial - gender and economic lines as the Supremes did. Everyone loved them to include politicians and teachers and what not. Folks were trying to dress and dance like the Supremes - all over the world. They had how many number one hits in a row - and so on? Thanks for you all's input. The above is just my opinion - and I appreciate you all's - for that's what makes this kind of forum interesting - the fact that we all have our own take on things - and on many occasions agree and agree to disagree with all due respect that we all deserve. Anyway - am I "Going Out Of My Head" now - with all the medicine in me? LOL! I'm tired now - so I'll holler back later - or on 7-27-04. Have a good one. Btw - my pops turned 75 years young on 7-5-04. He bought himself a 2003 Lincoln (sp?) for his gift. He said it would be the last car he bought on this earth. LOL! | ||
Kdubya (paladin) 4-Laureate Username: paladin Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 206.185.64.23 |
I dunno, The Shirelles wre my first girl group and they were just fantastic.....I always thought the Supremes were trying to emulate them.....Baby, its You, sha-la-la-la-la la.....Hmmmmm... | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 6-Zenith Username: luke Post Number: 441 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
U feel better Gogo and thanks for great topic. I must also go with Juice all the way-dont know that I can say it better but Im vebal too! It always bugs me that the Supremes have just been called the # 1 FEMALE group-they were the #1 AMERICAN group. Even Diana says the 3 of them toghether complimented each other in such a way that they exploded together--the Shirelles came close-style,some sophistication-but not quite. As Gogo said the focus needs to be on the 3 Supremes to fully get it. And I also cant say I fully understand it-even for myself per my love of the Supremes. Oprah, Whoopi etc all point to them as THE ONES. Of course Motown would have been big - but not quite as maintstream and not quite as huge. I think the Supremes had such an impact either directly or indirectly on the 60s--and postive changes in integration etc --that they and Berry deserve much much more credit than they get sociologically. Music became the great equalizer in ways. Rightly or wrongly their race became irrelevant; and with HDH everything changed. Im telling u as Juice says if they reunited they would sell out every venue. And the word is Mary and Diana ARE talking again. As Mary says Dreams Dont Die people just stop dreaming. PS the genius of Marvin Gaye would still have happened though if not for the Supremes he may not have reached as many people. (Message edited by luke on July 26, 2004) | ||
John Barry Sheffield (jaybs) 3-Pundit Username: jaybs Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.92.168.163 |
I never joined in the discussion at first because the "Thread" headline made me so "Red" - I fully agree with Bobbie Eli, Berry Gordy had a Plan from The Start and The Supremes later to become Diana Ross and The Supremes where just a cog in the wheel, in fact they had to wait longer for success than many! - and I for one still feel as a vocalist Jean Terrell was a much better lead singer than Diana and the Supremes of the 70's had a lot more to offer than sadly they did. Regards John | ||
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl) 5-Doyen Username: gogogirl Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 69.1.9.65 |
A'noon All, Hey John. I�m sorry the thread title made you so red. But like I said before - I respect everyone�s opinion - as I hope you respect mine. I certainly didn�t mean to upset anyone with this question. I never have posted to any threads where there were debates over the original Supremes and the latter Supremes. I never voiced my opinion concerning whether or not the original Supremes were better than the latter. Matter-of-fact - I asked this question strictly from a non-fan perspective. I don�t think one even has to be a fan in order to speculate on whether or not the original Supremes put Motown on the map. I have always been curious about this question - just like I was when I asked the question concerning the Tempts and Supremes and their places in Motown history. But to elaborate more on why I feel this group contributed to Motown eventually becoming the ICON it became - here are some of my rationalizations and perceptions. In what was it six years - the Supremes had 12 number one hits. I�m sure the Beatles had just as many or were close. Now it just might be me - but IMO - I think scoring number one hits would fortify any label's coffers and make anyone interested in the record business stand up and take notice. The Supremes quickly became Dick Clark�s headliner after their first performance with that troupe. Not bad at all. And they appeared on the Ed Sullivan show more than any other Motown act - so this tells me that Berry Gordy knew how to play his hand - and he put a lot of Stock into this group. I agree with Jimmy in that not only were the Supremes the top female group in America back then - they were the Top American group - period. And of course - this is also my opinion. Now you say that the Supremes had to wait awhile before success caught up with them. Was that a bad thing? For IMO - when they did catch on - they blew the entire Label/Company all the way up. No other artist or group achieved what they achieved once they blew up and got on that serious roll. Another question that might be of interest to some is - would the Supremes have gotten so big w/o Holland-Dozier-Holland. I would say - not - because it didn�t happen that they achieved their success w/o the aforementioned. One thing none of us can do is rewrite history. It stays the same �Forever Came The Day.� No one can change it. The writing is in the record books. Again - this question was meant to be more about - may haps the reality of the situation. And naturally not everyone�s reality is the same. It was not meant to be about which group of Supremes - or individual ladies one liked over the others - or who had the better voice. Folks can respond the way they like though - for I have no problem w/others opinions. I eat it all up. That is why I am a part of this board. I love to read up on others takes on any questions. Lastly I think and again - The Supremes hits came after a few others by some of the artists at Motown - but none of them kicked the label out of the universe. That only came after the Supremes scored their first three hits. Some in the industry might have heard of this cat Berry Gordy - and his little label Tamala/Gordy/Motown - but after the Supremes truly came out the gates smoking - them folks from all over the world and fans of music period - learned who Gordy and his label was very quickly. At one point the UK was not partial to even �Let The Music Play� over there. At what point I wonder - did they finally see the light? Again - the above is just my take. Was it 1963 or 1964 that the Beatles took America by storm? I know the Supremes did their part in 1964. "Where Did Our Love Go?" (1964) Okay, break out your meal money for this one. A bunch of smashes that still work thirty years later ("Baby Love," "Come See About Me" and the title song all went to #1) and helped define the Sound of Young America. Inventive arrangements, with unusual percussion including the feet-in-sandbox intro to "Baby Love," and that incredible octave leap on the chorus of "Standing At The Crossroads Of Love." The album is padded out with some earlier flop singles: "Long Gone Lover," "I'm Giving You Your Freedom," "Run, Run Run." (DBW) http://afgen.com/supremes.html (Message edited by gogogirl on July 27, 2004) (Message edited by gogogirl on July 27, 2004) | ||
Tony Russi (tony_russi) 5-Doyen Username: tony_russi Post Number: 186 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.210.48.246 |
Yes, Motown would have still been the Iconic record company of the 60's without the Supremes. I don't think the reverse would have been true. | ||
GO_GET_GONE_GIRL (gogogirl) 5-Doyen Username: gogogirl Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2004 Posted From: 69.1.9.65 |
Hey All, I already commented that in my eyes - Motown would have still been successful without the Supremes. Yet my thing is- I don't think it would have become the ICON it became w/o them. Simply because - the Supremes were pushed out front for a reason. When Mr. Gordy saw how hot they were because of hit after hit - he came up with his masterplan for them. They appeared at the Copa first - and they were the first group to appear on the Ed Sullivan show as many times as they did. They eventually had two television specials and appeared in movies. How did this all happen? Didn't Berry negotiate to make it happen? Wasn't the fact that the Supremes held such great crossover appeal the reason they were promoted so by him? Did he know something no one else knew as it pertained to how he wanted to utilize them? In other words - the history and fact of the matter is - the Supremes were the group/artists that Berry gambled on to take Motown even higher - and they did. Surely - I would never take anything away from all the other fabulous artists and entertainers that built Motown up before the Supremes had their first hit. I love them all. I am just asking a question as it pertains to what Berry Gordy saw in them and why he groomed them the way he did. What did he see? In the Supremes - Berry Gordy was able to test the waters as it pertained to black performers getting gigs on TV and in movies. He saw how huge they had become muscially - so he wanted to put them out front in the Television medium, the supper clubs and the most important one - he wanted to put them before that TV audience. If he had felt that he could have secured such deals for some of his other artists - and at that time thru that medium - why didn't he? IMO - he decided to push the Tempts out there only after he had grasped the fact that his number one female group was established and had crossed over. He saw how they handled the spotlight - fame - accolades and all the other stuff that went along with his desire to utilize the Supremes thus. Y'all know that I have given Smokey - The Funk Brothers - HDH - Norman and everyone else the accolades and credit they all deserve - because they all helped to make Motown the most successful black owned record company it became. My question is simply - would Motown have bcome the ICON it became w/o the Supremes' 12 number one hits - their crossover appeal - and their expousure on the tube? The below site has been posted before. From 1964 until 1969 - the Supremes had twelve number one hits. No other group or artist(s) at Motown accomplished that feat. Surely - that is/was something very grand that happened - and Berry capitalized on it. He was a capitalist after all - and that is why his company grew as it did to that ICON status. Lastly - evidently Berry craved for the Supremes to achieve what they eventually did - and in 6 short years. I've read that Motown started winding down some after HDH left. They were a little down - but never out - because Berry still had multiple fantasic and fabulous artists in his stable. But like I mentioned before - IMO - when HDH left - Diana went solo - David Ruffin left - Paul & Eddie left - is when Berry saw that those changes made him nervous. I would think that because the Supremes did become TV stars - he had accomplished one of his most coveted goals. Did he not see that Motown still could have achieved what he craved with any others - and as it pertained to his quest to make TV stars out of them? Again - just my take. LOL! PS - Excuse my errors that hopefully I've corrected. http://www.talkofthesouth.info /motown/index.htm (Message edited by gogogirl on July 27, 2004) (Message edited by gogogirl on July 27, 2004) | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 5-Doyen Username: ~medusa Post Number: 344 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.250.175.171 |
I liked the Supremes, but I also liked the MArvelettes and the Velvelettes...and in no way, do I think any of them could've stifled the MOTOWN/HITSVILLE Icon...with all of the other acts and acts that followed. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 6-Zenith Username: luke Post Number: 442 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Saying Motown would have been iconic without the Supremes and not vice versa is like saying Cabaret would have been the same without Liza--its all symbiotic. Who knows? (Labelle without Lady Marmemelade...) | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 5-Doyen Username: ~medusa Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.250.175.171 |
...ahhh, not really~~~as they say, one (or many) don't stop no show... | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 6-Zenith Username: luke Post Number: 445 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Come on lets not put down anothers opinion. Liza is directly connected to that show-who knows what would have happened without her is what Im saying-cant rewrite history. | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 5-Doyen Username: ~medusa Post Number: 348 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.250.175.171 |
ok Liza & Cabaret', but we were speaking about Motown here...and I just don't agree that one act could've stopped Motown for being what it was and what it stands for...not even the Tempts. | ||
Cool Ju (cool_ju) 4-Laureate Username: cool_ju Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.139 |
There were other available artists who could've taken up the sounds of HDH and achieved the same level of success, IMO. I still think Motown should've put extreme effort into Brenda Holloway. Maybe they should've tried HDH on her? | ||
John Barry Sheffield (jaybs) 3-Pundit Username: jaybs Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.92.168.168 |
GogoGirl - no problem with your posting I can honestly asssure you, the "Red" was just a quick passing phase and expression, haha - I respect different opinions, but hopefully we can always good debate and discission even when we don't agree, every Family does! John |
