| Author | Message | ||
  Satipe (satipe) 2-Debutant Username: satipe Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.50.137.38 |
There are two Drifters groups and a Platters coming to my home town in the near future. That means you will likely get the same as there must be Drifters, Coasters, Platters, Marvelettes, Supremes, etc. performing tonight in your city with no original member. This must stop! I am sad that some artists allow fake groups on the bill and give the excuse that they need money yet they wrote a book complaining about these same FAKES. Martha Reeves and Otis Williams, you need to feel shame as you wrote one thing in your books yet did another as you allow FAKES to perform on the same bill as you. | ||
janebse (janebse) 3-Pundit Username: janebse Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.63.4.229 |
It's ridiculous when groups of the same name perform in the same town. However, groups have always changed members, from the very beginning. Even David Ruffin and Dennis Edwards were replacements for the Temptations. Would you say the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is a fake group because its members change. Is the New York Philharmonic a fake group because its membership changes? I think a definition of a group must be written. Are there certain standards to adhere to? Are they members of the same church? Are those who are members the instant they choose a certain name which becomes famous the only members of that group? What is it that brings certain people together at one time that constitutes a group? I think groups will always change and members will float to one place or another. This is not an easy question, but I think groups will always change. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 357 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Keep it simple--as a bill before congress which has stalled(tho one has passed in Mass or RI I believe)--one original memeber at minimum to be eligible to be called that group. That is at least a starting point. Why should a group be any more vulnerable than a single performer-eg y r the Marvelettes fair game when no one could get up and say she was Aretha and say"I recorded this in 1967" as the fake Marvelettes have done--it is simply deception. And the 50s and 60s artists are once again exploited. We must tell Congress NO. Are people aware the fake Marvelettes played the White House a few years ago?! | ||
Destruction (destruction) 4-Laureate Username: destruction Post Number: 150 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.173.224.21 |
In the immortal words of James Brown, "We've got to use what we got to get what we want". Information is the key. Use the internet, web sites, forums, newsgroups(very under used these days), mail list, to gather information about the groups on tour, or even those recording, such as personnel, songs being done in concert, and audience reaction. Once you've acquired information, use judgement. | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 5-Doyen Username: ~medusa Post Number: 302 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.79.166.41 |
..and whatever we do, we must NEVER EVER support them by any means... What kind of Contract adheres to Fake Celebrities anyway...especially where none of the (Fake) members were ever originals members of the group they claim to be ??? Anyone who participates or allow these kind of performances, is a Fake...and if it's Fake, then it aint REAL, and and if it aint REAL, ...then it aint Genuine. ~~~and I most definately approve this message~~~ (oh & by the way, I got this quote from a president and his opponent)...(LOL) | ||
Satipe (satipe) 2-Debutant Username: satipe Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.50.137.38 |
Janebse, The choirs and orchestras you mentioned can have upwards of fifty members so it is harder to see changes. Usually, these members do not find the group as well. The Marvelettes, Platters, etc. are smaller so change is more noticeable to a fan and they were formed by a few group members who in some cases can no longer use the name they created. If this has happened to members of choirs or orchestras, then yes, they have a valid complaint. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.84 |
It takes a lot of effort on the part of a lot of people to educate both the public, but most especially, promoters. The "Marvelettes" who are out there and never set foot in a Motown recording studio, were actually booked for the Woodward Dream Cruise, in the Motown Marvelettes' own hometown. It's shocking that this goes on, and on, and on. People think, if they're available to play, they're real. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 365 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
The courts have been very haphazard in their decisons--the Shangri-las won, Mary Wilson has lost--its all at the whim of a judge. Congress must take action to protect the American music heritage-send emails to your congress people. There is a webiste(out of Boston) I believe that has the congressional bill #. | ||
Don (don) 6-Zenith Username: don Post Number: 597 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.78.24.162 |
I'm only speaking from this point of view. I think the Library Of Congress, did a very poor job by keeping track of their copyrights laws back in the 1950's and 60's. That's why alot of groups from other regions especially in the US had a hell of a time when it came to thinking they we're calling themselfs by an original names they may have created. I know alot of groups lost alot royalites due to the disregard on the LOC part. As for now with all the popular groups it's a sad thing to say the least. | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1853 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
The problem is really the public. Much of the public only have a "casual" knowledge of many groups. As the PBS specials prove, many people don't care WHO's singing those songs. They just want to HEAR those songs. Hell, many of those groups have members who weren't even born when certain songs came out. Another issue is that you have different members conjuring up their permutations of THEIR group. For example, you have Dennis & his Temptation Review, Otis & The Temptations & now, Richard Street has HIS version of The Temptations. Then you have the matter of who OWNS the name of the group. Many of these groups do not own their names. As a result, an unscrupulous owner of a name could have one group of the "So & Sos" playing in Pittsburgh, another group of "So & Sos" playing in Indiana & so on. Remember the case of "The Marvelettes", where some 20 something girls can travel around the country performing, while the original women get squeezed out. If the public would simply educate themselves & demand truth in advertising, much of this could be stopped. Unfortunately, many people are into the songs, not the groups who made them. And you know what.....they actually convince themselves that the songs sound exactly like they did when they were 17 & in love. Funny how the mind & ears can play tricks on you. Like Mr McDonald said: "What a fool believes". | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 6-Zenith Username: ~medusa Post Number: 474 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.79.90.115 |
DON'T Attend their shows DON'T Buy their music DON'T Spread or say a word about them or their performance DON'T Support them in any way DON'T spend time reading about them or talking about them. It's the folks at the top, who cause this kind of stuff to materialize. Consider them NON~Existant.... ~I support this message~ | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
I agree Medusa, except that it should be talked about. If nobody talks about the groups who aren't authentic, their "managers" will get away with passing them off on a (sadly) unsuspecting public. One example, the Marvelettes who didn't record for Motown will appear at the city of Ferndale's Dream Cruise concert, here in the authentic Marvelettes' own backyard. It's sad that people in this town would actually book these New Jersey Marvelettes. | ||
John Barry Sheffield (jaybs) 3-Pundit Username: jaybs Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.92.168.169 |
The group who call themselves - The Four Tops, even have a falsetto lead singer? - there are no members from the Original FOUR TOPS! When AMG launched their new look website they included The Four Tops (Impostors) CD, it took me several complaints to get it withdarn and deleted! - They have recently been on Tour here in the UK, so it is right to let local press know so casual fans can know they have nothing to do with the One and Only Original FOUR TOPS! We just can't sit back and accept it happens! - we have to make our voice heard, but it is time for some Law to be set against misleading the public in this way as may Artists and groups do. John | ||
Gee (gausden) 2-Debutant Username: gausden Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.231.183.151 |
Its a difficult problem to solve take the Contours only Potts was an original member from back in the day and even he left and came back. A group is formed an perform as the Contours for years then Potts leaves and joins some other guys and calls that group the Contours. What is the first group to do? They have been performing and making a living as the Contours If they stop using the name they would not get any work. is that fair What if Otis passes away? What do the remaining members do who have now been Temtations for years do they stop using the name I do not have the answer. Each situation is different.It aslo hurts original performers by being out there as a Fake group they are taking away gigs from the original groups plus they are cheaper and bring down the pay scale for the real groups. As you may know I am part of Spyders Mgmt team and as I have told him many times I am glad there can be only one Spyder. As part of Mgmt it Frustrates me when I have to deal with promoters who try and put us in the same pay areas as these fakes. In defense of Martha and others The promoters put on a headliner and the try to fill with cheap fakes in order that they assure profit and make the show look bigger from a Talent point of view then it really is.Its tough out there the only thing she and others can do is not do the show but they need to make a living also. I suggest people call the city of Ferndale and complain about it. You can also Go to the Show at The City of Berkley Thats where Spyder is Playing and I promise you it will be the real thing. | ||
Don (don) 6-Zenith Username: don Post Number: 601 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.75.54.238 |
I for one agree with Sue it was managers. Their plots & stunts that has created alot of pathos & chaos in the first place, and gotten there money under the table while their clients they managed starve. | ||
Fred (fred) 3-Pundit Username: fred Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
Gee, What Martha and the other legitimate artists can do to avoid appearing with fake acts is to insert a clause in the contract rider to the effect that there will be no fakes on the bill with them. If there are fakes, the legitimate artist gets paid, but does not have to show. I know a half dozen artists who insist on this language, including Sam Moore and Mary Wilson. It works for them. | ||
Thomas Ingrassia (thomasingrassia) 1-Arriviste Username: thomasingrassia Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 4.156.108.104 |
There is a national organization devoted to educating the public and legislative lobbying on both the state and national level: F.A.M.E. (Friends Against Musical Exploitation of Artists) Unfortunately, the legislation in Massachusetts never made it out of committee--there was heavy lobbying from other sectors of the entertainment industry. In April, 2001, Mary Wilson testified before the MA committee sponsoring the bill. There is, however, legislation currently pending in Pennsylvania--which has very strong support from Senator Robbins, whose district includes the Vocal Group Hall of Fame. Last year, during the VGHOF Induction Week, legislative hearings were held at the Vocal Group Hall of Fame. Among those testifying were Mary Wilson, Vida Gardner (wife of The Coasters' Carl Gardner), FAME's Pat Benti, Maxine Pinkney (wife of The Drifter's Bill Pinkney). FAME can be contacted at: 781-284-7222 or via mail at: FAME 154 Endicott Street Revere, MA 02151 http://www.fameartists.com There are things that fans can do. When you hear of bogus groups appearing in your area, contact your local newspapers, radio and TV stations. Contact the venues. Encourage others NOT to buy tickets to these concerts. As long as the managers, promoters and bogus acts keep making money and headlines, they will proliferate--slowly putting the authentic artists out of business. Earlier this summer, the City of Worcester, MA (where I live) hosted the annual Summer Nationals Auto Show. Thousands attended. The headline act at the concert was The Pony Tails. Fortunately, a savvy reporter at the alternative newspaper exposed the fact that this group was NOT the real Pony Tails--but a "Girl Groups Tribute Act." They sing only 1 Pony Tails song in their act--as well as songs by Martha & The Vandellas, Supremes, Shirelles, etc. Interestingly, last November, this same group was on the bill at an oldies concert at the prestigious Mechanics Hall, in Worcester. According to the reporter, the act's set was pretty sloppy--yet the audience gave them a standing ovation. Is it any wonder these groups are able to do what they do? Sadly, for the vast majority of concert goers, it doesn't matter who is singing the songs. Tom Ingrassia TIngrassia Entertainment | ||
Destruction (destruction) 5-Doyen Username: destruction Post Number: 275 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 199.173.225.21 |
Good Work John Barry | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.34.51.20 |
Exactly, Fred. Artists who complain that they "have to" play with fakes -- it's not true. | ||
Davie Gordon (davie_gordon) 5-Doyen Username: davie_gordon Post Number: 181 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 195.92.194.16 |
Thomas, thanks for keeping us up to date with the legal developments. Am I right in thinking that any legislation passed would only apply to that particular state and not nationally ? - in which case these unscrupulous promoters / groups would just shift operations to another state. Would you satisfy my curiosity - are you the Tom Ingrassia who wrote an excellent article on the Marvelettes for Goldmine some years ago ? Davie | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1865 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Sue, Barry & Tom: Thank you for this information. Very extensive & practical info for all. I sure hope that this info helps everyone. Unfortunately Tom, your last sentence mirrors what I've been saying all along. To those of us who care about the real article, the casual fans, en masse just want to hear their favorite songs, regardless of who's singing them. Therein lies the real problem. | ||
Thomas Ingrassia (thomasingrassia) 1-Arriviste Username: thomasingrassia Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 4.156.111.116 |
Yes--I am afraid this will be a state-by-state fight. Legislation was introduced on Capitol Hill in 1999--and it remains stalled. I don't hold out much hope for any national legislation. The movie industry has lobbied against much of the anti-bogus group legislation. They seem to think there are legal implications for an actor who portrays a real-life figure. I don't get the connection, myself--but, then, I am not a lawyer. On a brighter note, however, legislation requiring promoters to clearly advertise a group as containing no original members recently passed in South Carolina. So, there IS hope! And, contacting your local newspapers can produce results. Last summer, a promoter notorious for booking bogus groups for his oldies shows was doing a show near here. Huge interview with him in the newspaper. I contacted the reporter, told him the real deal--and the reporter actually checked out the validity of the acts on the show. In this case, all of the acts on the bill did contain at least 1 original member. Davie, to answer your question, I have been writing for Goldmine since 1983--but I have never done a story on The Marvelettes. I have done features about The Supremes, Mary Wilson, Kim Weston, Brenda Holloway--as well as a number of book reviews. Tom Ingrassia | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1876 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
TOM, AAHH Yes, Goldmine!!! What a magazine. Man, I've got to get my subscription up to date. What bothers me the most is is so unfair is that these shenanigans can only be pulled off with groups. I mean, many of us wish that we could see Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye & Jackie Wilson perform again. Well, we sure know that that's not going to happen. There's no way for anyone to fake that. However, these "GROUPS" are pretty much guilty of trying to do that. Many of these groups original members are dead, yet these folks have members who were NEVER a part of the original group. These folks are worse than misrepresenters of the truth. Some of them are outright grave robbers! They steal & feed from the dead. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
They're not just stealing from the dead, Juice... Gladys Horton of the Marvelettes is very much alive, and was prevented from even billing herself as "Gladys Horton OF the Marvelettes" by the New Jersey, non-Motown group. Gladys has a handicapped son she is the sole support of ... So this stuff is deep. | ||
Linda Di. (linda_di_fsg) 4-Laureate Username: linda_di_fsg Post Number: 149 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.67.206.19 |
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but was intrigued by the title. In two weeks, The Temptations Review with Dennis Edwards will be performing at the NY State Fair in Syracuse (along with Mary Wilson). I'm looking forward to seeing the show, I've always enjoyed Dennis' voice. As I was reading a local paper this morning, I saw an ad for "The Temptations" at the Smith Opera House in Geneva, NY a week later. That sure seemed odd, so I went to the website of the venue and there was a picture of five men who I did not recognize. A brief bio says it is The Legendary Lead Singers of the Temptations with Glenn Leonard (credit to them for telling the truth) http://www.thesmith.org/NewFil es/main.html Everybody's got the right to make a living, but isn't this just pushing the envelope a tad too far? | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1880 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Sue, You are very correct. I mentioned the plight of The Marvelettes above. I was kinda looking at it from the perspective of how easy it is for these folks to impersonate a group & how so many "fans" enjoy them. Us Otis, Sam etc fans don't have that option. By the same token, I know that we wouldn't want to. We like the authentic & if the authentic is unavailable, no substitutes will do. I want to hear Eddie Kendricks, not Eddie Hendricks. Usually, there's a HUGE difference  Hey Linda: I guess that we can add Glenns' Tempts to those of Otis', Dennis' & Richards Tempts. Pretty soon, we're gonna have more Tempts offshoots, than Temptations. Can Rickys & Louis' Tempts be far behind?? | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Eddie Hendricks, LOL ... Not Jimi Kendrix, either ...at least, with tribute bands, they're being honest about what they do. I wouldn't add Glenn's Tempts to the others, would you? Dennis' Tempts particularly, you're talking about an authentic lead voice that was on top hits. | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 407 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.43.206.95 |
Linda Di - I went to that website link you provided. It's too bad they have to live off of the Temptations name to get publicity. The bio is not really truthful either because where it says Glenn is a legendary lead singer, I do not agree. Except for Joe Henderdon (sp), who now sings with Otis, Glenn is the only one on that photo who was with the Temptations. He may have had a nice voice, but do you know which songs he led which were hits? Even on "Standing On The Top" song, neither he nor Otis had a solo part. I feel bad about Sylvster leaving the Contours. I feel especially guilty because my cousin sings with Sylvester's new group. (Message edited by sis on August 12, 2004) | ||
Fred (fred) 3-Pundit Username: fred Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.84 |
Five years ago, when the anti-impostor legislation was still alive in Congress, Gladys and I were invited by the U.S. Postal Service to participate in an event in Pasadena as part of their mail fraud education program ("Know Fraud"). Gladys was a natural choice because of "Please Mr. Postman" and I was there only because Gladys asked me to introduce her. We were able to turn the event into something of a seminar on fake groups. We had a lot of fun, and the post office people got an earful. I was deeply involved in the effort to get Federal legislation passed, and drafted some of the language that appeared in the final bill. While the final bill would not have driven impostors from the market, or even force them to advertise that they had no original members, it would have accomplished two things: 1. It would have permitted original members of the group to use the group name in advertising their own appearances within certain specified limits: "formerly of" "original member of," etc. and provide a specific safe harbor for those artists from allegation of copyright infringement. 2. It would have established a Federally chartered organization which would be responsible for identifying "authentic" group members by criteria the organization would develop. These performers would be entitled to use a specific marker, a "Truth In Rock" insignia (designed by Congressman Dennis Kucinich) in advertising. There would be both a public education program (to get them to recognize and look for the emblem) and an affiliation program for bookers and venues who would agree to book only authentic performers. The Federal charter would have put the organization on the same legal footing as the Red Cross or the US Olympic Committee; no funding but the weight of authority on the issue. In the weeks between the final draft and the bill introduction, I worked out the general plans for a series of benefit concerts to fund the organization (coordinating with the Smithsonian for the kickoff in DC) and I also got commitments from several large organizations representing venues to cooperate with the organization and participate in setting standards for their operations. The concerns that Tom mentions the movie industry had with bill were resolved by telling the MPAA exactly what the bill did. They subsequently took a neutral position on the bill. However, support for the bill was not unanimous, even among the artists who had worked on the lobbying effort. Some of them, specifically the ones who held the trademarks in their group names, were wary of allowing people who had left their groups to use the group name in any way. Even though the current case law would permit them to use the group name in ways the bill codified, they essentially wanted to be able to threaten their exmembers with litigation to keep them from performing. This disagreement gave Mitch Glazier, the chief of staff for the Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee (who had oversight of the bill), the opening he was looking for. Literally at midnight the day before the bill was to be introduced (as part of a telecommunications bill that was going to pass by voice vote), citing the dispute among the artists, he pulled the anti-impostor language. In its place, he substituted a nasty little provision that overturned 30 years of copyright law by unilaterally declaring sound recordings to be works-for-hire. The effect of this language was to permanently vest copyright ownership of recordings in the record companies and deprive the artists from making any claim for recovery at the end of the copyright term. When I saw the changed language the next day, it was too late to stop the vote, and the bill passed by acclaimation. It took more than two years, and the creation of the Recording Artist Coalition, to reverse the substituted provision. As for Glazier, two weeks after the bill passed, he left his $80,000 a year staff job to become head of Legislative Affairs for the RIAA, at about $500,000 a year. The RIAA says there was no connection between the clandestine amendment of the bill and his hiring. Unfortunately, the disagreements among the artists involved in lobbying for the bill left some more-or-less permanent rifts in the campaign, and everyone was a little disillusioned by the result. No serious effort to revive the legislation has been made in the last five years. | ||
Linda Di. (linda_di_fsg) 4-Laureate Username: linda_di_fsg Post Number: 150 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.67.206.19 |
Sis -- thanks for that info. I'm not overly familiar with the Tempts from the 80s so I wasn't sure about Glenn in the group. All I know is that nobody in that group looked familiar. Out of curiosity I would go see the group, but then I'd be supporting it, so I won't go. | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 409 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.43.206.95 |
LOL, I wouldn't go either. Plus you can go to any club and see any neighborhood group singing the classic temptation songs. | ||
SisDetroit (sis) 5-Doyen Username: sis Post Number: 410 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.43.206.95 |
However Linda Di - I re-read the article and it says: "Joining Leonard on this tour are several other former members of The Temptations, all from the golden era of Motown." I wonder why they did not name who the others are, and what golden era are they speaking of. The guys from that era have gone on. Dennis is doing well with his Review. Unless they are talking about Otis. If he keeps making those changes, he will be in the line of "former" Temptations trying to make a couple bucks. I wonder if Richard will be there. But perhaps Damon, Barrington and Harry may be there to sing with Glenn. | ||
Thomas Ingrassia (thomasingrassia) 1-Arriviste Username: thomasingrassia Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 4.156.90.27 |
Unfortunately, one of the problems with passing any kind of legislation is what constitutes an "original" member. Even the artists cannot agree on this. There are several artists' rights groups involved in this struggle--and they disagree on who should and should not be allowed to use a group's name. Some feel that any singer--even replacement members--who actually recorded with a group--should be considered "original members," while others feel that the term "original members" applies only to the founding members of a group. Also muddying the waters is one rights group's contention that once a member--even a founding member--leaves a group, they forfeit any rights to use the group name. Still others involved in the issue feel that only the original lead singers should have the rights to use the group name. Some feel that as long as 1 original member remains with the group, they can use the name. Others feel that there needs to be at least 2 original members in the group. I think all these differing points of views and definitions among the artists themselves played a major role in the federal legislation being stalled. And, unfortunately, I think other segments of the entertainment industry still are not supporting this type of legislation. One of the actors' unions (I can't remember which one) file an opposition to the MA legislation, and, I believe, has also filed an opposition to the proposed PA legislation. BTW, that Temptations group appearing in Geneva appears in vegas all the time--usually on a bill with fake Coasters and Drifters. About 2 weeks ago, Richard Street appeared at a club in Stockholm, Sweden--billed as "The Temptations." Tom | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 140 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
My opinion would be, someone who joined a group later on but wasn't an original member could be "of the Temptations" while the original name could only be used by founding members. But a name, say The Temptations, should not be used by an entirely new group fielded by someone who simply bought the trademark. That should be not allowed, legally, because it's consumer fraud. | ||
Fred (fred) 3-Pundit Username: fred Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.138 |
Most states have comsumer protection laws that require someone who wants to sell you a washing machine or other appliance to tell you up front if it has any replacement parts. I once almost talked a county attorney into prosecuting a fake act under the Tennessee statute, but we ran out of time before he could get the approval to try. The semantic problems of who can say "of" or "formerly of" or "founding member of" is really where the consensus of artists falls apart. Even if a member leaving a group agrees in writing to limit or completely give up the right to refer to the group name, that doesn't always work. I've negotiated settlements that go so far as to limit the size of the type in which the group name can appear in ads for the leaving member's subsequent gigs. Even this level of detail hasn't been enough to avoid pissing matches where a third party, usually a venue advertising an upcoming show, "violates" the agreement, usually by accident. The only ones who win when this happens are the lawyers. Even so, I strongly suggest to my group clients that they have such an agreement worked out and reduced to writing long before anyone leaves or is thrown out. I tell them it is the equivalent of a pre-nup. Probably the most egregious cases of this type are situations in which the current group uses old photos to promote gigs because these are almost always intentionally misleading. The former members have legal rights to protect their "name and likeness," but they have to find out about the use of their photo and then actually start a lawsuit to prevent it from happening again. That's not a cheap remedy. | ||
Heikki (heikki) 4-Laureate Username: heikki Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 81.17.199.27 |
Fred, thanks for your valuable comments. We've had here in Finland touring all kinds of "Supremes" and "Temptations" and one of my friends recently visited Spain to witness the Four Tops with not any recognizable figure in the line-up. They do it all the time here in Europe, where they figure people are not so conscious. I've contacted the organizers/promoters, but to no avail, so what is the right party to address in these cases. Best regards Heikki | ||
soulseeker (soulseeker) 3-Pundit Username: soulseeker Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 24.53.234.220 |
As long as people pay money to go and see them it won't stop. A lot of times its the promoters figuring they'll have an advantage if the use the group name because individual members names are not that recognizable. I don't really know why thats the case with Dennis Edwards though. He sang on a lot of hits for the Tempts. But thats what he said when Otis sued him for using the name. I think Dennis is a unique case anyway. Otis Williams has the rights to the name but he doesn't sing lead on any hit records. He relies on others in his group to handle those songs even the ones Dennis sang lead on. So my question is... who's the fake? Just because Dennis doesn't have rights to the name he shouldn't be allowed to make a living off records that he made hits but other people can? I remember a time when David and Eddie were alive and (I think Dennis was with them) doing gigs as the Temptations they were called fake Tempts. Huh? They are about as real as it gets. They had to eventually use the title original leads of the Temptations because they didn't have legal rights to use the name Temptations. Would it be fair to people who had hit records with the group to stop them from making a living by identifying themselves with group that they recorded the songs with? Again, I'm only speaking on the Temptations situation because it is pretty unique. | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 141 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
I don't know anyone who thinks Dennis Edwards is a fake. I think we've all agreed that as a former lead singer, he should have the right to use the name as he does, and he does a great job with the Temptation Revue. You're sort of missing the point if you focus on Dennis. Groups like the Marvelettes have NO original members, and in fact the original members themselves are barred from using the name "Marvelettes" in any way. That is the kind of situation we're talking about. To say that as long as people pay money to go it won't stop, is defeatist. Often all it takes is a call to the promoter. Most of the people booking these acts haven't a clue what they're doing. Some admittedly wouldn't care if you explained it, but I think many if not most would, especially if more than a few in the community raised a bit of hell with them. It helps to have press, but you can't just sit back and rely on the press to take care of everything. I had two front page stories focusing the Marvelettes' situation, and yet in suburban Detroit -- Ferndale -- they've booked the non-Motown, New Jersey Marvelettes twice now. Alas, not everybody reads anymore. When I mentioned the situation to a Ferndale city official yesterday he expressed shock, and said he'd look my story up. (Alas, I think the papers have started charging for older stories like that). Interesting thing, first thing he said was, "Oh yeah, like the fake Beatles we have play." I explained that no, it wasn't the same, because the fake Beatles were clearly marketed as a tribute band, not the actual lads from Liverpool. He conceded the point. So never underestimate how much power the individual has in all of this. Talk to the promoter, copy articles about the specific act involved from the Internet and have them for the promoters to read. Say the words "consumer fraud." When people hear quasi-legal phrases like that they get nervous. There's lots you can do. | ||
soulseeker (soulseeker) 3-Pundit Username: soulseeker Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 24.53.234.220 |
Sue: I know what the point is and I didn't miss it. I don't care if what I said was defeatist thats my opinion. These things have to be handled on a case by case basis through the courts. The definition of consumer fraud can change from state to state. And in the case of the Marvelettes they have a legal right to use the name. I know its sad but how can you stop that? If you say its consumer fraud then you have a conflict in laws. And while all of that stuff is getting sorted out people are paying money to see these groups. In order to stop FAKES you have to be able define what a FAKE is, thats why I raised the issue with Dennis. I didn't mean to imply that people thought Dennis Edwards was a fake. There are plenty of people out there who call his group the Temptations Revue fakes and Otis' group the real Temptations. I don't know anyone who thinks Dennis Edwards is a fake per se, either. Now I'm not clear by your post what happened when you called the city of Ferndale official, what was the result? I'm assuming they would have to investigate the allegation of consumer fraud or did they just go out and stop the group from performing? | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 142 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 12.34.51.20 |
The Marvelettes may have the legal right to use that name, but do they have the right to misrepresent themselves as being the group that performed for Motown? Can they say, "And now we'll sing our hit song from 1961"? Or, "Here's one Smokey Robinson wrote for us"? ...Therein lies the consumer fraud. The people buying tickets think they're paying to see the Motown Marvelettes, the ones who sang on "Please Mr. Postman" and "Don't Mess with Bill." They're not. People would pay considerably less money to see a Marvelettes tribute group. If you feel passionate about this music, and the performers who gave it to you, you can make a difference. Public complaints, lots of them, is what will stop fake groups. | ||
soulseeker (soulseeker) 3-Pundit Username: soulseeker Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 24.53.234.220 |
I don't know can they? What have the courts said on this issue? They shouldn't be able to do it. But what do I know. So what happened with your public official? What did they do about it?I'm curious. (Message edited by Soulseeker on August 14, 2004) | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.139 |
SS, We'll know next year when the city books their concerts for Dream Cruise. I can't urge people strongly enough to let promoters/venues etc. what's going on. | ||
Vonnie (vonnie) 5-Doyen Username: vonnie Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
My cousin came to New York this week from California, she and a friend went to a concert at Radio City Music Hall. The concert healiners were The Manhattans, The Whispers, The O'Jay's and The Temptations. My cousin and her friend told me that the Manhattans, Whispers and O'Jay's were very good, especially Eddie Lavert. Gerald Lavert also made an appearance and sang along with his dad, this was also a very good performance. The last group to appear were The Temptations, they were so sub-par people got up and walked out  . What a sad commentary! | ||
Sue (sue) 4-Laureate Username: sue Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.139 |
Vonnie, Which Temptations was it? | ||
Vonnie (vonnie) 5-Doyen Username: vonnie Post Number: 260 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 152.163.252.200 |
Unfortunatly, I have no idea which group performed. My cousin did not recognize anyone. I asked her if it was Otis Williams group, but she was not sure. I did see the Marquee and it read, The Temptations.????? | ||
soulseeker (soulseeker) 3-Pundit Username: soulseeker Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 24.53.234.220 |
That lineup will be here at the Universal Amphitheatre here in L.A. area. Its Otis Williams group, The Temptations. I can't wait to see the Ojays. |
