Soulful DetroitArchives - July 2004 � Eng and Europe vs US-Supremes/Tempts etc Previous Next

Author Message
Top of pageBottom of page

Jimmy Mack (luke)
5-Doyen
Username: luke

Post Number: 356
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.198.48.201
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 7:43 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As we are so multi-national here can Europeans give us an idea how big Motown was or wasnt in the 60 and 70s? Now I think the Supremes had one #1 in Eng-Baby Love(and 12 in U.S) and the Marvelettes one top 50 record yet Eng loves/loved(?) Motown/soul right?What gave?
Top of pageBottom of page

Jimmy Mack (luke)
5-Doyen
Username: luke

Post Number: 360
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.198.48.201
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 8:56 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS--which Motown artist(s) had the biggest success in England?
Top of pageBottom of page

roger (roger)
4-Laureate
Username: roger

Post Number: 131
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.35.87.17
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:01 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Jimmy Mack

I can only write about the U.K. as I don't have information on the rest of Europe,
however as your post implies public acceptance of Motown recordings in the mid 60s
( as reflected by chart postions ) was poor here in comparison with the U.S.

I'm assuming that your question relates to mass acceptance during the Golden Age of
Motown which I would put as 1963-67. In terms of chart success, at the end of 1967,
I would put the acts in the following order.

1 : SUPREMES
2 : FOUR TOPS

Then a big gap .. then

3 : STEVIE WONDER
4 : JIMMY RUFFIN
5 : THE TEMPTATIONS
6 : MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS
7 : MARY WELLS
8 : MARVIN GAYE

Then the rest!!

"Baby Love" by THE SUPREMES reached number 1 in the U.K. in late 1964. Other
Top 10 hits by them were "Where Did Our Love Go", "Stop In The Name of Love",
"You Can't Hurry Love", "You Keep Me Hanging On", "The Happening" and "Relections".
Most of their other releases made at least the Top 40, but a few
( "Nothing But Heartaches", "My World is Empty Without You" and "Love Is Like An Itching
In My Heart" ) failed to chart at all!!

THE FOUR TOPS chart debut here "I Can't Help Myself" only reached the Top 30 .. as did
their next hit "Loving You is Sweeter than Ever" .. "Reach Out" got to Number One and
the follow ups "Standing In The Shadows Of Love", "7 Rooms of Gloom", "Walk Away Renee"
and "If I Were A Carpenter" were all Top 10 hits.

Sadly, THE MARVELETTES one and only chart entry here was "When You're Young And In Love"
which only reached around number 20.

As far as the other Motown artists were concerned there was similar inconsistency.

THE TEMPTATIONS crept into the Top 50 with "My Girl" and "Its Growing" in 1965, "Since I
Lost My Baby", "Get Ready" and "My Baby" didn't chart at all, but then "Ain't too proud
to Beg". "Beauty's Only Skin Deep" and "Losing You" just edged into the Top 20.


I think that there are two reasons for this .. firstly we can be slow here to latch onto
new trends, but most importantly lack of radio exposure!!

Before spring 1964 there was no day-time music radio available in Britain as the BBC had
a total monopoly on broadcasting, and their output consisted largely of plays and
documentaries. In what little time they devoted to Popular music they tended to
concentrate on home-grown acts like CLIFF RICHARD, ADAM FAITH and HELEN SHAPIRO.

At night we could get Radio Luxembourg from continental Europe who broadcast "pop" music
( which back then was mainly "Rock N Roll" and "R&B" ) from 7 P.M. until the early hours.
Also American Forces Radio could be picked up at night.

All this changed in spring 1964 when a number of illegally operating stations started
broadcasting non-stop music from ships off the shores of England and Scotland. U.S.
Soul/R&B was an important part of their music policies and this was quickly reflected
in sales.

These offshore pirates lasted until late 1967/ early 1968 when the U.K. government
succeeded in shutting them down.

In August 1967 the BBC launched Radio One which, although not perfect, played a lot of
Motown records, especially on the breakfast show hosted by TONY BLACKBURN and on the
Saturday lunchtime show hosted by EMPEROR ROSKO.

There is a web-site I found some months back which documents all of this and also lists
the U.K. charts in the '60s.

http://www.sixtiescity.com/

With regard to public acceptance of Motown in the U.K. it really came in three waves ..

1 - Mid to late 1964 .. the first hits with "My Guy", "Where Did Our Love Go" and
"Baby Love".

Then things quietened down for a while .. until ..

2 - Mid to late 1966 .. a resurgence headed by "You Can't Hurry Love", "Reach Out" and
"What Becomes of The Brokenhearted".

Then things quietened down again slightly .. and then ..

3 - Late 1968 - Mid 1969 .. a resurgence headed by "Grapevine" and "Love Child", and
re-issues/re-promotions of former non-hits like "Get Ready", "Roadrunner",
"Tracks of My Tears" and "This Old Heart of Mine".

As you can imagine, a lot of early original U.K. Motown issues from before 1967 are
very scarse and command high prices.

I hope this answers your question.

Roger
Top of pageBottom of page

Tony Russi (tony_russi)
4-Laureate
Username: tony_russi

Post Number: 164
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.18.10.34
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 1:03 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roger, I also think the charts might not have really reflected the popularity of Motown and other "soul" artists as they were mostly played on the "pirate" stations.
Top of pageBottom of page

mike s (mike_s)
4-Laureate
Username: mike_s

Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 195.93.33.10
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 1:30 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Motown and soul music didnt mean a thing for the average recordbuyer in the UK in the early 60s. If you saw it was a hit in the States and it was available (like Shop Around), you probably had to order it at the record shop or if they had it in stock, listen to it to check it out before buying.
Motown's first real licencing deal was with a small independent in the UK,Oriole which put out a fair amount of product but didnt have much promotional muscle (ie money!) It was only really when EMI took over that "Tamla-Motown" meant something. The Motortown tour of the UK (which played to pretty small audiences in some venues) helped to establish awareness, as did the occasional TV appearance. Remember airlinks between the US and UK were not like these days back in the mid60s. Most Motown releases sold to devotees who like me just bought whatever came out but few were major hits at first. The Supremes then the Temps and Tops started to make real impact as soul became more established- along with Atlantic/Stax and to a lesser extent, Chess. A lot were popular club/disco records of the day but Motown took much longer to become established as a part of everyday mainstream life compared to the States.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jimmy Mack (luke)
5-Doyen
Username: luke

Post Number: 362
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.198.48.201
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 8:50 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks-very helpful. Roger--what chart position did My Guy reach? Did any of Mary's post Motown records chart?
Top of pageBottom of page

roger (roger)
4-Laureate
Username: roger

Post Number: 132
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.35.87.17
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 5:23 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Again Everyone.

Jimmy Mack .. heres the page on "Sixties City" that documents Mary's hits ..

http://www.sixtiescity.com/60a zall/60artm.htm

As you will see "My Guy" got to #5, and her duet with Marvin "Once Upon A Time" crept in the charts at #50. She had NO other chart entries here.

Tony .. you may be correct in stating that chart positions underestimated popularity/knowledge/sales of Motown. I was only 10 years old in 1964 so I wasn't frequenting nightspots!! However I was a fervent listener to the "pirates" and it came as a surprise to me years later when I found that records like "Needle In A Haystack", "Since I Lost My Baby" and "My World is Empty Without You" hadn't charted in Britain as I knew them very well from radio play on the "Pirates".

In the 1970's there was contant griping amongst U.K. soul fans that the charts underestimated the sales of "soul/funk" records as a lot of sales were through specialist shops that weren't included when compiling the charts. No doubt the same occurred to some extent in the sixties.

Another interesting point is that EMI kept a lot of these records "on catalogue" for years after their initial release. For example "This Old Heart of Mine" was a minor U.K. hit in 1966, and then re-charted in late 1968 without ever having being deleted and re-issued with a new catalogue number. Cumulative sales of songs like "Going to A Go-Go" and "Needle in a Haystack" over the years would probably have been enough to propell them into the Top 10 if they had been concentrated over a few months rather than a few years!!

Roger
Top of pageBottom of page

Jimmy Mack (luke)
5-Doyen
Username: luke

Post Number: 386
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.198.48.201
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 11:03 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks Roger--who would u say was the most successful Motown artists in England?How did singers like Barbra Acklin, Barbra Lewis,Linda Jones, Chuck Jackson,Gene Chandler,the Toys... do?How popular did Aretha get?
Top of pageBottom of page

FrankM (frankm)
2-Debutant
Username: frankm

Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.43.190.109
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 8:57 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would take a long article to explain the music scene, the charts, and the radio scene in the UK. Most UK teenagers in the early sixties discovered Motown thru bands, beat groups playing the latest R&B American hits live on stage at weekend dances. The enthusiasts would track down the records and buy them from specialist shops or order them from the states. UK artists had a history certainly from the fifties of covering American hits thus if you check the charts of the times a lot of the songs will be familiar but maybe not the artists. The British record companies and music publishers made more money out of a British version so guess whose version was pushed? Racism was also a factor. A BBC producer of the day complained of "too many tambourines" on Motown records as a reason for not playing them. Other BBC producers might squeeze them onto review shows where there was no needle time limit. The music on the BBC Light station tended to be live and one could name the shows that played records. Certain record companies would reward fans who got a request for one their records that got played on the radio. Given that certain radio shows could attract millions of listeners it was better than taking an ad out on Radio Luxembourg. Whilst Alan Freed was being prosecuted over payola in Europe it perfectly legitimate for Record Companies to produce radio shows that played only their records and pay Radio Luxembourg to play them.

The only independent record companies in the UK dedicated to black music were all producing reggae, Ska or Blue Beat as it was known. All the American stuff was issued by three major companies Decca (London) EMI (Stateside) and Pye (Pye International and Chess) and one indie Island records (Sue UK). They obviously sold enough to make it worthwhile and one hit would keep them going to the next.


Barbara Acklin was unknown outside of the soul fraternity, as was Linda Jones and Chuck Jackson. Gene Chandler had a bottom forty hit with Nothing can stop me and is better known for his disco hits in the late seventies. Luckily enough the BBC had changed their policy of banning pop records based on classical riffs shortly after B Bumble and the stingers hit with Nut rocker so the Toys had a #5 hit with "A Lovers Concerto" which was regarded as a pop rather than a soul record. Barbara Lewis's version of "Baby I'm Yours" was popular in the clubs but was covered by Peter and Gordon who took it into the top twenty. Aretha Franklin had two top ten hits and if she had toured would have had a lot more. English fans really appreciated artists who toured and a number of acts who couldn't fill a bowling alley in the US could do three month tours every year. Ben E King, Clyde McPhatter and three different versions of The Drifters ended up living in the UK. You asked who were the most popular Motown acts. I would say the Supremes on record sales but The Four Tops had sell out tours before anybody else and were still filling halls for another twenty years. Both Edwin Starr and Jimmy Ruffin had more chart action here than they ever had in the states and both of them lived in the UK.

All of these artists benefited from radio stations needing to fill up broadcast time with a mix of current hits and oldies. The concept of Top 40 radio with a restricted playlist had yet to hit the UK and in the seventies UK radio stations would have individual programmes dedicated to Country, soul, classical, Folk and Jazz as well as current hits. The specialist programmes would not have had enough new records to play and their dedicated listeners would not have tuned in if it wasn't for the oldies being played. These oldies were still current plays in the soul clubs.

I ma sure some other Brits could pointout teh holses in this missive. Please do so.
Top of pageBottom of page

Don (don)
5-Doyen
Username: don

Post Number: 333
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.75.189.225
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 9:11 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is great infomation guys I never realized, after all these facts do bear light. Great insight
guys, really.

Regards
Don
Top of pageBottom of page

Jimmy Mack (luke)
5-Doyen
Username: luke

Post Number: 388
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.198.48.201
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:20 pm: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much Frank--great info!
Top of pageBottom of page

Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k

Post Number: 369
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.235.127.196
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 4:52 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I remember correctly, only a few Motowns songs made it to radio in Holland in the 1960s. What the Brits said above about UK was reflected in record shops. Most of the shops I looked through in the '60s in England and Scotland had little or no soul or Motown (Only a few of the monster Motown hits). I only saw the run-of-the mill Motown UK pressings (Oriole)(Stateside)(Tamla-Moto wn) and regular soul on UK labels (other than the few giant soul hits) at HMV in London. They had an awful lot of rare UK. soul. (just about every soul record released in UK). I should have hired a warehouse and bought them all! I'd be a millionaire now (and could then afford to get all those Northern cuts off E-Bay)!!!
Top of pageBottom of page

roger (roger)
4-Laureate
Username: roger

Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.35.87.17
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 5:04 am: ��Edit PostDelete Post���Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello again everyone.

One thing that no-one has pointed out so far is that BERRY GORDY had had a couple of big hits in the U.K. prior to Motown.

Both "Reet Petite" by JACKIE WILSON and "You Got What it Takes" by MARV JOHNSON were very big hits here ( both of them being Gordy compositions/productions ). In fact, "Reet Petite" was a much bigger hit in the U.K. than in the U.S. in 1957.

I think that in the early '60s this gave the U.K. record companies ( and Mr Gordy himself ) some confidence that Motown had the potential to break through in a big way eventually.

Roger

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.