| Author | Message | ||
  Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 325 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
I keep reading that in books and I think people have just bought it. What about Gladys Horton's voice-very soulful and went to #1(and another lead singer in same group-Wanda), Mary Wilson's voice has similarities(and Eddie Holland wanted Mary on lead for Where Did Our Love Go--as Gladys would have been had Marvelettes taken it). Aretha Franklins voice got a "few" hits and Flo's voice had similarities. Diana's voice was pretty bad on most of their early singles. A bit of a mystery! | ||
fayette (msshonuff4u) 2-Debutant Username: msshonuff4u Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
well i think diana voice crossed over.i know i'm going to get beat up i think florence voice was mush better then mary's.i went to a website once and heard a single by florence, she did indeed have a beautiful voice. | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.44 |
Well I think Diana had the most versitile voice of the Original Supremes I all three Original Supremes had and have the two Great voices(Since Florence is gone) .Florence could sing if the song was right for her but most of her solo album was a waist although there were some brilliant songs on there as well .I also think Ross was the one who really tried to please Gordy.Shawn (Message edited by Shawn1b on July 04, 2004) | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
NO beating up!----Flo had a grea voice--actually more"commercial" than Aretha's if u follow that old logic----Marys is bluesy and she just tears up ballads--check out I Keep It Hid on the JImmy Webb album--spectacular. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 331 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
NO beating up!----Flo had a great voice--actually more"commercial" than Aretha's if u follow that old logic----Marys is bluesy and she just tears up ballads--check out I Keep It Hid on the JImmy Webb album--spectacular. | ||
Gary (gary) 3-Pundit Username: gary Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 172.168.48.16 |
Fayette...I'm with you: Florence could out-sing Diana any day of the week, and so could Gladys Knight and Martha Reeves in her prime. But Diana seems to have had a certain style or charisma that made her a better fit to front the Supremes. Personally, I've never cared much for Diana's voice, but I can't argue with her success. The fact that Diana was squeezin' Mr. Gordy didn't hurt her star potential either. | ||
John Lester (theboyfromxtown) 4-Laureate Username: theboyfromxtown Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 217.44.166.39 |
By all accounts, Mr Gordy didn't get hurt with all that squeezin either!!! | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 332 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
True per Berry but by all accounts that didnt happen til '65. | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.44 |
Gordy noticed Ross right from the begining and .The affair itself may have started in 65 but she was always special to him .Plus I think Rosses voice was very unique .Martha is still in her prime as far as I am concerned !Shawn | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 333 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Yes I liked Diana's post '63 voice a lot--just wondering why she sang lead prior to that with the likes of Miss Flo and Miss Mary around too! | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.44 |
I belive because Ross had to most charisma per Gordy .Shawn | ||
~medusa~ (~medusa) 5-Doyen Username: ~medusa Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 68.252.7.108 |
hahahahaha, I think Diana would've sounded better singing from her vocals, instead of her nasal cavity. Mary & Florence had much better voices. | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.44 |
Well singing from her nasal cavity is what made her voice unique and you really can't argue with 12 #1's.Shawn | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1339 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Basically, I feel that there is one primary difference between Diana & the other girls. The difference would be the way that Diana enunciated. Her diction was clear & free of slurring. I'm not knocking anyone & as almost anyone here knows, I'm no Diana Ross fan, far from it. You have to remember that in the context of those times, the Blacks singers who played the "smart" supper clubs (Nat Cole, Sammy Davis, Belafonte, etc.) all enunciated their vocals in a clear manner. Even "Pop" idols such as Anthony Gourdine & Frankie Lymon sang their lyrics in a clear manner that was understood by all. Berry was following the money. Class could take him places where all of the soulful singing could not. Unfortunately, that mannered singing & demure style was his ticket to the big show. You must admit that he pulled it off masterfully. His vision was most definitely realized & like it or not, Diana kicked in those doors that others walked through. Though I love them dearly, I don't believe that Flo or Mary could have done that. Diana knew the game & played it to the max. If you've been watching the Flip Wilson marathon on TVLand, this is made even more evident. Even in the early 70s, you can see how this was still in effect. The appearances on the show by Gladys & The Pips, Leslie Uggams, Sammy Davis & Diahanne Carroll were very sterile & milquetoast. Diahanne's dramatics while singing "Until It's Time For You To Go" were part & parcel of those mainstream crossover aspirations. Though many female singers had stronger voices & were more soulful than Diana, how far did they go? Soulful was not what mainstream America wanted back in 1963. In small doses, sure. Mainstream America wasn't ready for the Soul bomb during those days, when strong Blacks were accused of "not knowing their place". We hadn't "overcome" yet. In fact, they weren't ready for the soul bomb until 1967/68, when the groove & talent of Soul could no longer be denied. When Aretha hit with Respect & James kept bringing the Soul & Funk, America was finally ready for it. The fact is, Diana had a far more commercial voice & style that the other girls didn't. I didn't say she had a better voice, far from it. Soulful.....don't make me laugh. She gave her target audience what they wanted in the style that they were accustomed to. I don't thin that Flo could've watered down her style & I don't know that Mary felt comfortable in the lead back then. I'm not a Diana fan. With that said, I must give her a great deal of credit. I honestly don't think that anyone else at Motown could have done what she did for Motown. | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 336 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Well said Juice. I saw Diahann Carroll on Flip yesterday and it made me cringe--her dramatics(and I think she is very underrated overall). None of my postings have been negative about Diana-I love her voice though I read today in Posners book a quote from a black writer that her voice had absolutely no substance. I still think Mary couldve taken Where DId Oor Love Go to #1 or Gladys Horton and Flo could have gone to #1 with I Hear A Symphony/You Keep Me Hangin On--the Supremes had minimal success with Diana in the lead pre HDH. Certainly her charimsa was singnificant once they made it--as was Mary's beauty and FLo's sassines as well as their voices. I think what Mary has said about their 3=1, and HDH=massive success. | ||
Walt B (walt_b) 2-Debutant Username: walt_b Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
After watching the Supremes on Motown 45, I could see how Berry thought that Diana's voice was the most commercial(pop) of the three of them. I don't believe that when Berry Gordy made that statement he was referring to other singers outside of the group. And I say this even though I could never get to Diana's diva attitude. | ||
Tony Russi (tony_russi) 4-Laureate Username: tony_russi Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.210.50.81 |
I think her voice was the most "comercial" after the first 3 Number Ones...then she became the "voice" of the Supremes. | ||
SDF (handsome) 5-Doyen Username: handsome Post Number: 230 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 170.118.158.14 |
I agree with everything that is being said here. While Flo & Mary had the better voices, Diane was the most commercial of the 3. I hated to hear her sing thru her nose though. As someone stated before, it was only Diana's voice that got her over with Berry, but it was also the fact she needed Berry in some ways to get where she needed to go, as Berry neeeded her to get some places he wanted to be. I hate to say this, but I don't think Flo would have stood "the game" with Berry, and Mary came across to me (especially in her books), that she was just happy to be in the group. The affair they add was just an "extra perk". JMO-Please don't jump all over me, ha ha! Handsome | ||
SDF (handsome) 5-Doyen Username: handsome Post Number: 231 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 170.118.158.14 |
Let me also add, after her Supremes days, IMO the first solo Diana lp & The Boss, Ashford & Simpson had her sing from her gut, instead of her nose! Handsome | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 344 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
Very true- apparently some producers can get it out of Diana. I still am not clear what commercial means as Gladys' Horton and Knight had early 60s success and had "soulful voices"--just to name 2(and Chiffons, Darlene Love/Lala Brooks Crystals etc). | ||
Shawn1 (shawn1b) 4-Laureate Username: shawn1b Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 65.30.14.44 |
Yeah but Jimmy Berry was looking for that crossover success as he Berry told me Martha didn't need to sound any diffent to be liked but her base audience was still black(Meaning they had much more success on the R&B chart then pop) but she did crossover quite abit but Diana did it in a much bigger way their songs as far as the music also help not so much of a gospel beat as a happy beat.Diana singing thru her noise didn't bother me cause it natural and not flat like when some people do it but I guess I am in the minority on that point.I think all three girls could have given the group hits but who knows since it didn't happen that way.Shawn | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1380 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Shawn, You just hit the nail on the head!! Commercial back then meant POP success. And though many were angry with Diana, as I reflect back on it, I must admit that many treated Diana unfairly. Back in the early 60s, damn near EVERY BLACK ENTERTAINER had their eye on Vegas, The Copa, because that meant longevity, it meant success & it meant money. Many of them saw those venues as places where they could get paid handsomely & not have to criss cross the country, doing one-nighters & living in buses. Groups as diverse as The Four Tops, Billy Wards' Dominoes, Aretha & even the early O'Jays patterned their styles in that direction. Sam Cooke & Jackie Wilson deliberately sought out that crowd. Marvin Gaye even desired to cater to that crowd. Many sought the crown, actively at that. They didn't receive the scorn that Diana received. In retrospect, I guess that Diana caught a raw deal here. I'll agree that I do believe that the girls could've given them hits. However, hits are a dime a dozen. Many groups have hits without ever capturing mainstream success, or the imaginations of the mainstream. The mainstream is into PERSONAS. There's a certain je ne' se quois that they relate to & not everyone possesses that X factor that appeals to them. Diana has it, Barbara has it, Sam had it, Nat had it, Sammy had it, even Harry Belafonte' had it. Yes, Martha had hits & so have a whole slew of other ladies. However, very few have captured the imaginations of the mainstream like Diana did. That is what makes her more commercial. Others have reached for the ring, she grabbed it & ran with it. If she hadn't, I do believe that Motowns' fortunes (as well as many others who came through the doors she helped open) would have been drastically different. Regarding the things that I've heard about her, I'm no fan of hers & the Diva B.S. that I've read about. With that said, I have to give the Devil her due. I honestly don't believe that anyone else could have accomplished what she did. If anyone else could have done it, it would have been been done. Sometimes, things happen the way that they're supposed to. Like it or not, history has been written. All of the speculation won't change it. However, I do admit to wondering "what if"??? (Message edited by juicefree20 on July 07, 2004) | ||
Jimmy Mack (luke) 5-Doyen Username: luke Post Number: 345 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.198.48.201 |
I was being inquisitive-thats all. Its interesting how anything related to any discussion of the Supremes gets people cranked up. I was just questioning the thinking as other female singers made it big too and didnt have the Diana-ish voice. I think her talent, or perhaps charisma is great. Ive said nothing about the diva issues. I think Mary has "it"(charisma, beauty, magnetism) too though I dont know that her voice could have handled all of the material. I think if Wanda Young had been given Baby Love etc we could be talking about her today instead of Diana--per the power of HDH.(You give a singer or group 10 songs like HDH did and they will be huge no matter what-only Elivis and the Beatles are in the same category of sales at that time and we still talk about them as well as the Beach Boys) I feel things getting of track so I will cease my inquisitivenss!  --any neutral discussion seems to be taken as anti-Diana! | ||
Juicefree20 (juicefree20) 6-Zenith Username: juicefree20 Post Number: 1381 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.46.184.162 |
Hey Jimmy, For my part, I'm not upset. I think this is a great discussion. I've mellowed over the last few months regarding Diana. I have been through the mill with that subject. I have been on your side of the argument many times, believe me. I am on record here as not being one of Diana's biggest fans, far from it. Boy, I used to catch it for saying so. I used to think that anyone could've pulled it off & was very angry with the powers that be at Motown. I thought that there were many other women at Motown who deserved a shot at the brass ring. You know, someone like a Brenda Holloway or a Kim Weston. But, when I thought of the many variables involved, I came to the conclusion that perhaps, I was wrong. I thought about all of the ladies who were distracted & sidetracked by their men & how they lost their focus. I thought about the personalities involved & so many other things that made up the overall picture. As for the other ladies, I wonder if they could have handled the pressure, great as it was. That's what made me alter my opinion a bit. Hey, don't take it personally. I have no beef with this thread. In fact, I'm enjoying it immensely. I appreciate your viewpoint & am enjoying it very much. Don't pull out on us now! You've given some food for thought & I, for one, enjoy hearing everyone's opinions. This is good communication here, so keep it going! | ||
Lady Mystique (ladymystique) 5-Doyen Username: ladymystique Post Number: 373 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 216.37.212.17 |
Just my two cents...wasn't Diana's voice chosen to crossover and sell records? I mean dont' get me wrong...I love all of the voices, but I thought that was the company's mission was to sell records. | ||
Eli (phillysoulman) 6-Zenith Username: phillysoulman Post Number: 671 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 |
Up untill Where did our love go, Ms Ross had a very nasal and obtrusive vocal "quality", but when HDH decided to record Diane in a lower key on WDOLG, which, btw she hated,, just like magic, she became this sultry siren, and well ...the rest is........ | ||
marv (marv) 3-Pundit Username: marv Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.84 |
I think "commercial" is the wrong term to describe Diana's vocal appeal in the sixties. Her voice was more of a "novelty" than anything else. You must remember back in the early 60's most popular music was played on AM radio and you had a variety of styles,artists etc all on one station. Diana's voice was unique, novel enough to get noticed immediately upon hearing it. She was not a better singer than Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson, she was just lucky to have this different sounding voice. Having the boss on your side didn't hurt either. LOL | ||
Tony Russi (tony_russi) 4-Laureate Username: tony_russi Post Number: 166 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.210.49.201 |
You are correct Marv. | ||
Don (don) 5-Doyen Username: don Post Number: 281 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 68.75.171.151 |
Well, Mr. Berry Gordy felt at the time that Diana's voice was a stand out for the group. Both original Supremes Mary & Flo we're pretty good singers no disrespect. Diana was made lead vocalist so what's done was done. Don in Chi- Town | ||
Lady Mystique (ladymystique) 5-Doyen Username: ladymystique Post Number: 386 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 216.37.254.25 |
Well, I guess if you changed history a tid-bit, we wouldn't have those great records. | ||
marv (marv) 3-Pundit Username: marv Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 149.174.164.84 |
Thanks Tony. | ||
Reese (reese) 4-Laureate Username: reese Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 24.136.120.53 |
It should also be mentioned that it wasn't only Berry who thought that Diana's voice was unique. Even on their first single on Lupine as the Primettes, Diana was given the lead. Mary led the flip side. I was a bit surprised that Flo wasn't given a shot, since many people from that time have praised her voice. |
