Soulful Detroit Archives - July 2004 Detroit -vs- Chicago Previous Next

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Kev-Lo (7273747576)
4-Laureate
Username: 7273747576

Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 4.236.126.124
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 6:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi this is Kev-Lo you know there were some great Classic Soul and R&B that came from just about every city.But cities like Detroit and Chicago seem to have dominated the soul era. Detroit for one had some great soul artists like JACKIE WILSON,DARRELL BANKS,THE CAPITOLS,DEON JACKSON just to name a few that came out of that city.Then of course the grand dady of them all the Motown era.But in my opinion I think the best classic soul and r&b came out the windy city of Chicago. Chicago soul had a great inflence on me when I was growing up.From Curtis Mayfield on down.When I hear songs like HE'LL BE BACK,WORLD OF FASTASY I always get goosebumps.I know this may be hard,but I would like for you SD's to give your person opinion on which of these two cities do you think had the best of classic soul and r&b
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dvdmike (dvdmike)
4-Laureate
Username: dvdmike

Post Number: 165
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.253.195.86
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 6:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a kind of apples and oranges kind of thing. They were both strong back in the day. Of course Motown was THE label then. As a matter of fact, Berry Gordy patterned Motown after Vee-Jay, which was the top Black-owned label before Motown. Detroit probably had more Black-owned labels than we did, but we probably had more hits and hotter studio cats than all the Detroit labels, except Motown, who nobody in that time could compete with.
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Destruction (destruction)
4-Laureate
Username: destruction

Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 199.173.224.2
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 6:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

vs. Memphis?
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1311
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aaaaah Memphis!! Now they were great as well!!!
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Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k

Post Number: 331
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.232.149.64
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 3:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To me Chicago and Detroit put out the best, high calibre soul for the longest periods. It's tough to choose between them, as I grew up in Chicago, very close to the artists, groups and their music; but the music from Motown and the small Detroit labels rings in my ears so sweet and yet so powerful. I would put them both right up at the top in a flat-out tie. I would put Philadelphia third. I would put L.A. and New York in a tie for 4th and 5th, as what I like most from both of those cities are the Motown-inspired productions. I would put Memphis next. To me, they didn't have as long a run of good quality soul of the type I like. I tend to like rich voices singing great melodies and harmonies over rhythm and beat. I also like sweet melodies for my soul. I don't mind a little minor key driven melodies in my gospel and blues, but not as much in my favourite soul. muscle Shoals and general Southern Soul would come last with me. Washington/Baltimore would come next for me, after L.A/NY. I don't want to offend anyone here, but I feel that the rest of the major cities didn't produce a specific soul sound of their own, probably due to not having enough groups and artists record locally. I DO however want to give props to Cleveland , Pittsburgh, Houston, New Orleans and The San Francisco, who DID develop distinctive sounds, and had long enough runs of good quality soul productions. I like the Cleveland and Pittsburgh product best from among those cities (as it is much more like Detroit and Chicago soul than like the Southern varieties).
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David Meikle (david_meikle)
5-Doyen
Username: david_meikle

Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 81.130.211.124
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 4:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My cd collection is filed by city where possible so this is an interesting but simple question for me to deal with.

Firstly I love all formats of quality 60's Soul, so there is no bias.

I also own most of the cd's which contain 60's Soul Music.

I can tell by looking at my filing system that Detroit has the greatest output of all.

I realise that could be flawed but MY research into Detroit and Chicago shows that Detroit was much more prolific.

Finally I know for a fact that I listen to my Detroit cd's more frequently than any other and that is not due to the website. I am also not a Motown nut.

I would place in joint second place NYC/LA/Chicago.

I think Philly peaked a little later.

Enjoy what YOUR ears want to hear and thanks for the question.
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Kdubya (paladin)
4-Laureate
Username: paladin

Post Number: 90
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 206.185.64.23
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 9:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Motown
Chicago
Philly
Memphis

Motown was the Juggernaut.They were so prolific that no other city could possibly keep up with them in their hey day, we all know the story, Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Marvin, etc.....

Chicago was at best the David to Motowns Goliath. Jerry Butler, Curtis Mayfield, Stairsteps, Dells and of course the great Blues artists like Tyrone Davis, Koko Taylor, etc.....who brought a certain edge and flavor to the music which was in direct contradiction to Motowns polish. Oh by the way we had adopted The Jacksons prior to Motown because they, like the Dells were literally from our southwestern suburbs.....Harvey & Gary...smile for me now..........

Philly was like a combination of them both glossy acts with sweet soul and a touch of gruffness, lead by the Ojays, Stylistics, Harold Melvin & Bluenotes, Blue Magic, Delphonics. ( now where do I put the Spinners ????)

Memphis decided to take us all back to our roots with music deeply rooted in the southern bapist church. You couldn't help but feel good when you listened to Sam & Dave, Otis, Carla Thomas, Issac Hayes, David Porter and the like. Since I was lucky enough to grow up with this music and love all of the variations and artists they all have a special place in my life, Kev this was a difficult question to answer because I am from Chicago and like others mentioned here, I was close to the music and the artists. Secondly I had relatives who I would spend the summers with in Detroit and I would actually see the Tempts, Miracles etc driving through the hood. SDF it was a great time to be alive.......Did I mention Sam Cooke, Major Lance and Jackie Wilson.........?

Kdubya
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roger (roger)
4-Laureate
Username: roger

Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.35.87.17
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 9:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Everyone.

Kdubya .. Nice Post.

With regard to THE SPINNERS, in Britain they had most of their recordings released under the name "THE DETROIT SPINNERS" ( Including all those hits recorded in Philly ) to prevent confusion with a "Folk" music act that had a variety show on BBC T.V.

I can still remember being on one of my record hunting expeditions in Sheffield around 1972 and seeing a couple of little old ladies admiring an imported copy of "The Original Spinners"... they were both under the impression that it was the act who were on T.V.

Roger
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Kev-Lo (7273747576)
4-Laureate
Username: 7273747576

Post Number: 119
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 4.237.32.228
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 8:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi this is Kev-Lo hey Robb k I like your response to my thread. You said you grew up in Chicago and that you were close to the artists So for the record did you know The Five Stairsteps and do you have any info on their whereabouts if so please let me know I'm dying to know just what are they are up to.I did meet Clarence Burke back in 1980 here in New York
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 912
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.165.220
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 8:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NEW YORK/NEW JERSEY
PHILADELPHIA/CLEVELAND
CHICAGO/DETROIT
MEMPHIS/MUSCLE SHOALS
NEW ORLEANS/HOUSTON
LOS ANGELES/SAN FRANCISCO
SEATTLE
S.S.
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Robb_K (robb_k)
5-Doyen
Username: robb_k

Post Number: 333
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.232.131.172
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post KDubya. A Chicagoan who is objective enough to admit that Detroit had an edge over his home town. If they put a gun to my head and said you can keep either your Chicago or your Detroit records, I'd probably hesitate until the click, but end up choosing Detroit (because MORE of my favourites would be from Motown). But of my TOP,TOP,TOPs, they'd be about equal.

KevLo: Sorry, I never knew The Stairsteps, and don't know how to contact them. I meant "close to the artists" in the sense of being able to see them. I never got friendly with any of them I did know Bunky Sheppard, as his production offices were in the next suite over from us when we operated Airwave Records. I used to talk to him some, but never really talked to any of their artists.

Interesting ranking of Soul Music product by cities, Soul Sister. You and I usually agree on individual songs when it comes to taste in soul. But, I guess the fact that you come from NYC, and I spent my teen years in Chi-Town (making frequent trips to Detroit) make us divert (maybe due to our greater knowledge of local product in our own areas which didn't go National?).
Your listing of Seattle intrigues me. I never knew Seattle had enough of their own soul production to have a distinctive sound. I do remember Bobby Taylor and The Vancouvers being big there, but that's about all. The only "distinctive sound" I remember from there was the garage band sound of the Sonics, Rattles, etc. (which used to give me nightmares). Who were the soul groups and single artists from there? I'm sure I'll have heard of many of them-I probably just don't know they're from Seattle.
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Soul Sister (soul_sister)
6-Zenith
Username: soul_sister

Post Number: 924
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 65.43.165.220
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 4:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi RobbK;
I was also thinking of the years Ray Charles spent making music out of Seattle, as well as Quincy Jones, no bigger icon then him who started his career in Seattle.
Robb, I always agreed with your lists too, and admired your knowledge that goes way back. Wish I knew as much as you :-)!
True, I favor the NY-NJ sounds because thats what I grew up on, on the radio and local shows.
Always,
S.S.
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1346
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Happy 4th to all!!

I grew up with the regional sound of N.Y., Jersey & Philly. However, I simply liked good music. I think that a major crime of those days was the regional thing. It's amazing how many artists & songs went virtually unheard once you crossed a bridge or two. I find it amazing when folks like Black Ivory aren't considered a major group. I also find it amazing to think of the millions of people who don't know them & lesser groups like them. The same is to be said about a group like The Younghearts who many consider to be a L.A. group.

The bottom line for me is that I don't care where the music comes from. It could come from Alpha Centauri & E.T. could be the singer, backed by a bunch of Jedi Knights. As long as it's good music, it's fine by me. I'm never prejudiced against that sweet soul music.
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~medusa~ (~medusa)
5-Doyen
Username: ~medusa

Post Number: 264
Registered: 3-2004
Posted From: 68.79.116.1
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 8:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmmm, now that's a different name for a musical soul group
ET & The Jedi Knights.....(LOL)
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Kdubya (paladin)
4-Laureate
Username: paladin

Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 206.185.64.23
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Juice, I liked both Black Ivory and The Younghearts. Though I never considered them to be major groups, but they certainly had the talent to become major stars. To Robb and Kev-lo, I came up during a musical movement in Chicago, I have met most of the groups that we write about because I took my tired but to their concerts and supported them as best as I could. I've met the Staples, Emotions, Impressions, Jerry Butler, Tyrone Davis and many other artists simply because I was at their shows. Funny thing about life, I met Eddie Levert over twenty years ago at O'hare Airport, hell no one knew who he was, just a short black man who was looking for his partner, I told him I didn't want to draw attention to him and he thanked me, we talked about the Ojays and he went his way and I went mine. The Stairsteps used to live out on 99th & King Drive in a modest little home right near the expressway, you could see them all the time, because they looked just like everyone else. Hell in fact I was in the audience the night War recored their live album in Chicago at the Old High Chapparal night club, I didn't even know what was going on, but I was there. Now maybe if we could get ET & The Jedis to come out, I'd probably be there too.......

Kdubya....
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mel(andthensome) (mel)
5-Doyen
Username: mel

Post Number: 257
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 217.43.74.64
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For me The Younghearts
are yet another underated act ever.
This group did some of the most superb songs I have ever heard.

A friend and I collected a lot of there material and after listening to a few now the vocals on them are U-P-T-I-G-T-A-N-O-U-T-S-I-G-H- T.

YOUNG AT HEART MEL
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Juicefree20 (juicefree20)
6-Zenith
Username: juicefree20

Post Number: 1367
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 24.46.184.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good afternoon all!!!

K-Dubya, man you lived a blessed life!! To be able to meet so many great stars & to live among them had to be great. I was never that fortunate & I guess that I was too young to frequent those venues in those days. Looking back at those childhood days of the 60s & 70s, I can say that those were magical times. I know that the past usually looks great upon reflecting back in hindsight, but in this case, my heart tells me otherwise.

Sure there were problems, however, those days were special. I know that I'm not wrong about that. I tell you that you were blessed to have been able to be around so much musical talent.

No, Black Ivory & The Younghearts were not considered major groups. However, it is still amazing that so many people are totally unaware of them. Most people may know one or two of their songs. These groups made some quality material that most people are unaware of. Hell, say what you want about file sharing, but if it wasn't for Napster & Audio Galaxy, I likely would've never heard many of The Younghearts lesser known songs. I have their 2 20th Century LPs & knew of some of their Minit output. However, I never heard the majority of their songs, as their material was out of print. That's a shame, as these gentlemen made some beautiful songs & as Mel says, they were terribly underrated! Perhaps, someone will see fit to release their LPs & gather a comprehensive anthology. I'd buy them in a heartbeat!!

I can dream, can't I??? Thank God for the internet!!!
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Kdubya (paladin)
4-Laureate
Username: paladin

Post Number: 108
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 206.185.64.23
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You better believe it juice....they were straight up Tempt type singers.....I used to put them on with the Brothers of Soul & Chi-lites, Dynamic Tints, Manhattans ......I want you to know, what they say, cause thats the way it goes.............those were the days my friend. Sadly a flood back in the day destroyed my 45 collection and I have never recovered.......
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mel(andthensome) (mel)
5-Doyen
Username: mel

Post Number: 268
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 81.154.240.103
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 3:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

juice
let me know if you got my mail
2 more to follow if you did
mel
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Kev-Lo (7273747576)
4-Laureate
Username: 7273747576

Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 4.231.234.245
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 12:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi this is Kev-Lo hey Juice what's happening man,The reason why Black Ivory wasing considered to be a major group is because they were a New York group. they were hughe here in New York. they were not big to much in other urban cities. Just like the prince of Latin-soul Joe Bataan.He to was not big in other cities,but he was very big here in New York.
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Don (don)
5-Doyen
Username: don

Post Number: 241
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.75.58.75
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 2:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both cities I dig awful a lot. Though Detroit had the upper hand. Because They had all the writers, producers, arrangers and most importantly enough was all the musicians.

KevGo, stated once that Chicago had to make due with what they had to put out great music. Which is true, and I couldn't have stated that fact much clearer.

I agreed with Robb K's sentiments about if 'one' at Motown had any kind of a (business inkling) business sense, that Motown would've been bigger in it's hey day if 'one' could've pulled other writers, producers, artist & arrangers into their fold. And when I think about it, and with all of Motown's several hundred artist and not enough company talent in the creativity concerning in the music half of the company. Cause all over Detroit was kickin' butt and takin' names. Wingate was smarter. He got tired of the music biz and sold his interest to Gordy, and Gordy in turn took and ran with it without using some business sense. This is only just my opinion.
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C Bell/Eric (c_belleric)
1-Arriviste
Username: c_belleric

Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 4.165.0.239
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 1:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Like Ronnie Love and the Peps sing DETROIT, MICHIGAN!!!!
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Don (don)
5-Doyen
Username: don

Post Number: 255
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.78.24.41
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 6:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello C Bell.

I don't suppose the situation the strong overcoming the weak. At least not on the other man's part. I think it was out selflessness from 'ones' heart, to help the other in time of success, as I assumed it turned out that way. Like a Big Brother passing on his car and the Little Brother wrecking it. In other words, to cut off his nose to despite his face.
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marv (marv)
3-Pundit
Username: marv

Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 149.174.164.84
Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 1:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It really is no contest. It's was Detroit hands down as the music capital of the 60's. It would be fairer to take Detroit out of the competition and compare cities like Chicago,Memphis, Philly etc. Then in the 70's Philly took top honors with Miami, LA, DC, and others coming along with some really great sounds
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Don (don)
5-Doyen
Username: don

Post Number: 385
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.75.59.66
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As much as I respect Motown also all other Deroit labels known or unknown of the 60's/70's era, I'll have to stick by my hometown, thru thick and thin thru the good with the bad.
Don in Chi-Town
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Bob Olhsson (bob_olhsson)
1-Arriviste
Username: bob_olhsson

Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 209.247.222.109
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 1:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing I'm certain of is that Motown Detroit may easily have been the best MANAGED record label of the 1960s. Our artists, musicians and engineers really came from all over the country, an awesome array of talent that Berry Gordy gathered in the Motor City.
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Don (don)
6-Zenith
Username: don

Post Number: 428
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.75.166.90
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 7:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Point made, however hats off to Motown. I guess why people dug their records was the simple meaning of the lyrical content whether it meant love or a lost & yearning Love with a driving percussive dancin' beat. I know I did. Although many may not be in the know, and really don't care to know/understand, or try to compare Detroit vs.,Chicago because Motown is all really all they know? Many posters here on SDF and even I was shocked to know that there are alot of totally hardcore Chicago lovers on SD. Classic Chicago records of sounds. Here we know them as "Dusty's". In due fairness Chi-Town we're original and groups was always exploring reaching a certain heights of innovation to their songs, productions and more importantly, the songwriting. An adventure that's none stop anf if that don't do 'one' can listen to something else. Always fresh, always new, always something different. Not to seem nor sound mean spirited; it's THE TRUTH.
Chicago 4 Life
Don
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Don (don)
6-Zenith
Username: don

Post Number: 440
Registered: 4-2004
Posted From: 68.75.178.145
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 7:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot to mention in my post that Chicago music has always stood out from the rest. I'm not being partial nor bias. Something I still trying to figure out by best desribing Chi-Town (and/or) The Windy City.
Don

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