By Eamonn (195.92.194.18 - 195.92.194.18) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 11:39 am:

Hello everbody I'm new to this site! Harry W suggested I pose the following question here....

Has anybody noticed that the footstomps/handclaps at track time 1:11 on Candy To Me by Eddie Holland sound just like those used on the
intro to the Supremes Where Did Our Love Go?

This has got me thinking as to whether Motown recorded a tape of footstomps/handclaps and used them on several tracks. I guess this approach would save much joint pain and damaged floors!

Anybody out there got any ideas?

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 02:43 pm:

Foot stomps and hand claps were pretty common stuff to R&B and Motown. There would be no reason to pre-record them in that they were very easy to do. Also given the various tempos of music, a pre-recorded track would only work with a song that had the exact tempo of the track.I assure you all clap or foot tracks were done exclusive to the song.

By cl (207.75.178.232 - 207.75.178.232) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 04:16 pm:

The cool thing about the handclaps and other effects on old motown records is how organic they are. And sometimes they go in and out of tempo, which gives the songs a pulse ; rather then the machine like perfection of today's digital stuff.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 04:48 pm:

Good point. In fact I always liked to do hand claps so that some were slightly out of sync with the majority. It tended to give it a fatter sound.

By Rick Bueche (205.188.200.54 - 205.188.200.54) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 12:48 am:

The thunderclaps in question here were recreated numerous times. You can hear them on Ask The Lonely, Jimmy Mack and the Marvelettes's version of What's Easy For Two Is Hard For One. In the 70s, Frank Wilson added them to the mono remix of Stoned Love and Smokey utilized them on Floy Joy.

Other non-Motown artists also "stole" the sound. Check out Donnie Elberts Where Did Our Love Go, Maxine Nightingale's Right Back Where We Started From and even the Doobie's What A Fool Believes

By John Lester (213.122.203.208 - 213.122.203.208) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 06:15 pm:

But dont you think that just the thought of there being a library of recorded sounds adds to the mystique of it all..

Many many years ago when Motown was written about as an assembly line factory, I read this article in a music paper which expressed an opinion that Motown did have a library of recorded sounds.. I was absolutely fascinated. Now I know it isn't true but at the time of reading it (about 30 odd years ago) it really made me observe closer..


By the way, nice to see you here Rick.....

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

One day at the Motown studios on West Grand, Brian Holland ask me if I would record him doing som foot stomps on a piece of plywood in Studio A. It took only a few minutes, then he asked me to mix the song. The song was "Jimmy Mack".

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

russ

i think that will get john lester's juices flowing!

thanks for that one.

By John Lester (213.122.197.199 - 213.122.197.199) on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 11:55 pm:

and Russ, was that on January 17, 1967?

Those footstomps were added to the March/May 1964 recordings...

Russ.....are footstomps referred to as "Miscellaneous"..in which case this is 17 January 1967...

Why were you not listed on the 45 for Jimmy Mack with your engineer check letter?

David..that sure has got my juices going but I am still getting over Russ's other masterpiece "Psychedelic Shack"...I SO love THAT album...I need to find that thread and then take Russ back to the making of that album.....for me it reminds me of the times when Elton John used to work in a Berwick Street record shop!

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 12:52 am:

John,
Stay tuned...I have a feeling Russ will tell you something rather interesting regarding engineering credits.

By Julian (205.188.192.177 - 205.188.192.177) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 06:36 am:

This stuff is fascinating!

By John Lester (213.1.165.104 - 213.1.165.104) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 08:31 am:

Ralph.

I am on the edge of my seat here....one slight movement and I'm on the floor

There are very good reasons why I go on about the engineers...I have a feeling that those reasons just might now be confirmed!

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 02:09 pm:

Don't fall on the floor John. I'm sure Russ will show up shortly.

By John Lester (213.1.164.195 - 213.1.164.195) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 02:24 pm:

.......what was it like in that Hitsville USA basement on that mixing machine. To me, THAT was also where it was all happening.

...and of course, there was more action going up one level up in the studio

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

John, I don't remember the date that footstomp happened.. too long ago. (hell, I dont remember what happened last week!) To me back then it was just going to work for another day. Making hit records was just the normal thing to do. We were young, what did we know at that time. Most of the mixing then was in a basement mixing room a couple of houses down on West Grand Blvd. The studio was in the Main house. I use to mix alot with Berry Gordy. We would compete and see who would do the best. He would lay down a mix and I would tell him it was crap ... then I would lay down a mix and he would say it was crap. It was great fun because we would end up with another hit.

By John Lester (213.122.191.26 - 213.122.191.26) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

Russ....take it from me THAT WAS THE DAY! If Brian Holland had stomped any louder I might have heard it in London! HA HA!

Now......Psychedlic Shack...were you responsible for all those sounds on that track..they were amazing...

.."screaming guitars" travelling from one speaker to the other, wah wah guitars on the album version which was over shadowed by fuzzy guitars on 45 versions. and what was all that party on about - it was on I Cant Get Next To you as well as Psychedelic Shack....

and on the album, what was Dennis on about when he was shouting "what's happening?" on Friendship Train about 6 minutes in....that track was a masterpiece.....funk must have been dripping off the walls when those guitars were finally put down for a rest...wonderful - the best!

Man, that album is just the best for me...blew me away......and did for a long time....

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

i've never even heard it!

shame on me. another one to look out for.

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 11:45 pm:

John; It's hard for me to remember every project, I was doing this everyday so it all runs into each other. As far a I remember when mixing Psychedlic Shack, just wanted to make it as wild as we could. (No holds bared) Paning guitars, adding various effects, even the kitchen sink if it would fit. I loved that kind of freedom, you were limited only to what your mind gave you. If I wanted to create a certain sound, We didn't have digital effects then so I had to setup all kinds of loops and things to make what was going on in my head. It was a real challange .. but fun! The musicians were the best and when you have the best, you get the best, plus using what I had then, I tried to take there preformance a few steps higher. again ... lots of fun.

By Rick Bueche (152.163.201.59 - 152.163.201.59) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 12:58 am:

John

I am so glad Harry Weinger led me to this board

Was wondering if Russ or Ralph knew how those beeping sounds were created on the Reflections hit? And was it more difficult to mix this in stereo than in mono?

RICK

By John Lester (213.122.198.87 - 213.122.198.87) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 07:00 am:

Rick

I have heard the tape containing those weird sounds on Reflections...and I still aint none the wiser for hearing it!

Rick...you ought to check out all the messages from inception...there's a lot of stuff here that I know will freak you out!

By John Lester (213.122.198.87 - 213.122.198.87) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 07:27 am:

Russ

Can you tell us some of the things that stick out in your mind then.....what about some of the artists that you particularly remember. And not necessarily the big hits, we are a bit of an esoteric lot here. Was you the one that was making me buy all the LPs cos you mixed them differently to the 45's!!! Well if you did, let me tell you, you cost me a fortune! HA HA HA

Does the name Little Miss Soul (aka Patrice Jefferson) ring any bells with you? Hitsville USA gave this lady a lot of studio time (and I mean A LOT) and yet nothing happened!

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 07:32 pm:

about those weird beeping sounds on "Reflections" by the Supremes, I used a audio signal generator used for testing audio equipment. I sent it through a tape loop causing a repeating echo. As far as what was harder to mix, mono or stereo, It really depended on the song and how it was produced. When I mixed stereo and got down to getting the final blend, I would listen in mono because if it sounded good in mono, than stereo would be even better of a mix.

By John Lester (213.122.200.58 - 213.122.200.58) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 09:03 pm:

You can knock me down with a feather, Russ

"Reflections" is my favourite record of all time....

Whose idea was to repeat the end chorus and dispense with that abrupt ending?

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 09:43 pm:

john
what can you tell us about patrice jefferson?
have you heard these unreleased tracks?

By Julian (205.188.198.182 - 205.188.198.182) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 06:21 am:

So most of the mixing WAS NOT done in 2648's basement?
How many songs were being mixed at the same time usually? How many consoles were you guys mixing on? So was recording done only in 2648 up until the time Motown acquired the Golden World? How much recording was done over on Davison and who was recorded there? So no recording was done on Woodward,, huh?
Was Studio A connected to the addition of the other house then as it is now? (The part where they have the folding chairs and the TV monitor)

(It's amazing to be talking to the guy who put the beeps in "Reflections"!)

By acooolcat (211.78.0.219 - 211.78.0.219) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 02:19 pm:

I'm sure that some recording was done at the Woodward office as Rose Batistte told me she recorded some songs there. This would be around 1972-ish.
When I looked around the building there seemed to be booths on the 5th floor.
Graham

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 02:32 pm:

There were no recording facilities on Woodward. On the 9th floor were two mixing rooms and the disc lathe room. Golden World was used primarily for over-dubs. Because of the mystique about the place, most producers would cut their rythym tracks exclusively at Studio A. Grahm, the boothes you noticed on the 5th floor were probably writers offices. The 5th floor was the creative divsion floor. My office was there along with Harry Balk's and Betty Osea who was the head of A&R. Our three offices were in the front near the elevators ( lifts ). Proceeding down the hall were the writer's offices.

By John Lester (213.122.195.26 - 213.122.195.26) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 11:13 pm:

So have you heard of Little Miss Soul, David

When I was researching certain recording dates, I noticed there was a huge chunk of studio time devoted to her.

I guess I ought to try and get to listen to her should I ever get the chance to. Trouble was, when I was there.....it's like, there is SO much to check out - where do you start....you cannot help but stand there with your mouth open ready to catch a fly and cry out.."WOWEE"

Honestly you guys would go ape-sh*t!

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 11:21 pm:

john where is 'there'? without giving too much away :-)

this little miss soul is definately ringing bells.

wasn't on any of these marginal bootlegs was it?
not that you would have looked at those!

By John Lester (213.122.195.26 - 213.122.195.26) on Friday, December 21, 2001 - 12:14 am:

I dare not say where...Harry will kill me...but it's 9 dollars on the transit train!!!

Universal Mastering East is as far as I dare say....otherwise I can imagine a few men in masks and black and white jumpers practising their wall climbing routines!

Marginal CD's........ok..I surrender, you have found me out! I have some of those......but Little Miss Soul Aka Patrice Jefferson is not on the Marginal CD's.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 12:03 pm:

Russ - re Reflections... until I heard it on CD for the first time I'd never actually realised the track was spliced together. Good edits, but you can hear them if you listen closely! I know this was pretty common practice in the 60s but on this track, is there a reason why the chorus is edited in each time? (I wonder if it's a case like Riot In Cell Block #9...? Lieber & Stoller only liked one chorus on the master so they spliced the same one in several times!) --Ritchie-- (one-time assistant studio engineer)

By Lester (213.122.194.160 - 213.122.194.160) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 10:30 pm:

the ending just sort of stops.....its a real comedown from the final mix....the ladies do a chorus and then Diana repeats a line over the bass and the backing goes "Reflections"....fade and finish quick.

I was really sad when I heard it.