By BassLand (64.165.226.195 - 64.165.226.195) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 06:00 pm: |
First off, Thanks David for reinstating the Carol Kaye thread. There is no place to put in addition posts at the botton of the old thread so I took it upon myself to start this one. I would like to see and ongoing contribution to this thread based on what we know about Motown and what Carol says on her website. What I am about to discuss is the following entry into Ms Kaye's website forum.
http://carolkaye.com/w-agora/view.php?bn=ck_carolsforum&key=1023932534&first=1023949175&last=1023693328&here=
I warn anyone that may go to see it. If she thinks a post posses a threat to her position she has removed post in the past and acted as though they were never there.
There is a entry in Ms Kaye's forum this morning about Motown which indicated to me that Ms. Kaye saw this thread and in now saying us Motown fans don't have a life because we do not subscribe to her version of the "truth" regarding the great Motown hits. Well, I for one think she should get a life rather than claiming recordings that she did not do but, thats just my opinion. She then mentions some 10 other bassist that worked for Motown in LA, thinking that story will make her claims more credible. If there were 1000 bassist who worked for motown in LA in the 1960's it does not make her the bassist on IWMTLH. at least It doesn't work for me... She further tries that old (for her) ploy of sexism/gender bias. Well, Carol (and I speak to you directly with this) as long as you keep claiming work that you apparently did not do, you will hear from people with contrary opinions. We hope you (eventually) admit the obvious. That is although you may have recorded the song IWMTLH, it was not the original recorded version by the original Motown artist.
Carol seems to place emphasis on the male female aspect of this issue. James Jamerson just happened to be a man, he also just happened to be the preeminent bassist at Motown Records Detroit. That is the extent of the female/male aspect of this issue. I don't think anyone here would be the least bit uncomfortable if the genders were reversed.
She speaks of countless articles (interviews with her, something she fails to mention) stating her Motown work. Consider this, she did work for the company. You should also consider this, She was not the bassist on Bernadette, I Was Made to Love Her, and many other 4 tops and Supremes original hits she claimed to be the bassist on. Anything else has to be taken with a grain of salt. She states she is sorry she ever worked for Motown. IMO she should be sorry she ever claimed those hits actually recorded in Detroit by the Funk Brothers. As far as all those countless articles she has caused to be published, look out for some things in the media with a decidedly different slant regarding the material she claims.
A word about my opinion of obsession. I wonder if it is alright for the Beach Boy/Brian Wilson fans to be "obsessed" with them? Motown has generated it's own category of music (One that mainly does not recognize Carol Kaye's participation). She is the one IMO that should move on and "get a life". The Beach Boys are but one group in the "Surf Music" genre. I would suggest she choose HER obsessions more wisely. It is obvious to me that her Motown claims ares one of her "obsessions" that she should relax a bit.
IF Carol can have her own forum that addresses only issues that she tightly moderates, then dicussion of her claims should be fair game here. It will not always be pretty. Taking credit for something that one did not do isn't pretty either.
Another question for Carol, What is a jimp?
By Bradburger (172.183.67.40 - 172.183.67.40) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 06:24 pm: |
Intresting stuff Bob.
I'm also glad that this thread has been re-opened.
Maybe Carol would like to post her thoughts on the subject here. At least we could reply without being censored!
Cheers
Paul
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 07:19 pm: |
This thread was originally closed by David because he was uncertain of the possible legal liabilities that may have been caused by any misinformation posted herein. I also welcome the re-opening of this thread in the interests of truth and accuracy.As your present moderator I only ask that we all remain ladies and gentlemen and deal with this issue in a civil matter. My own feelings about Ms. Kane's claims have been posted on this forum. Having managed Motown's studios during much of the time many of these songs in question were recorded, I can only repeat what I know, and that is the only bass players I saw in session with the Funk Brothers was Jamerson or Babbitt and most certainly not Ms. Kane.
By BassLand (64.165.226.195 - 64.165.226.195) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
I thank you Ralph,
See, this is what I am talking about. People who were at Motown during the time frame in question. BTW Ralph it was Carol KAYE not Kane. LOL, It is obvious you have not worked with her at Motown. Please feel free to contact me offline with any comments about what I have said here.
Sincerely,
BL
BassLand
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 07:46 pm: |
OOPs! Sorry BL. My apologies to Ms. KAYE.
On some earlier thread I had posted that several years ago Carol was teaching bass at a music store I hang at here in Monterey. A guitar player I know had mentioned to me in casual conversation how he had done some work with her while she was here and although she did talk about the Beach Boy sessions she never once mentioned anything of Motown to him.
By BassLand (64.165.226.195 - 64.165.226.195) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 08:36 pm: |
BTW I never ment to slight the other bassist who worked at Motown Detroit (namely Bob Babbitt, Tony Newton, Professor Beard, and others). It find it curious that I have never seen any claims by Carol to have played bass on records made using Bob Babbitt or other Motown bassists. I have a prepared thread that deals with my observations regarding a few of the interviews/stories I have read about Carol and Jamerson (particularly in Bass Player and Guitar Player magazines). As a research tool into the "many interviews" she speaks about on her site, I feel justified and stating my observations. This one British book in particular called "Calling out around the world: A Motown Reader" Helter Skelter Publishing ISBN 1-900924-14-5 comes to mind. Do you think the group is up for the discussion Ralph?
BL
By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 09:04 pm: |
BL and all,
Here are my thoughts regarding the issue.I think it's time to drop it. Let me explain. The controversy bothered David due to the possibility of legal action taken by Ms. Kaye. Apparently she has taken action in the past with others. I think we all agree to the very last person that her claims are not valid. The Funk Brothers themselves kind of nailed that one down with their laughter over the subject. So it seems to me that we have taken this issue as far as possible and anything furher will just benefit Ms. Kaye. I'm sure we are all familiar with the phrase.." No such thing as bad press ". It applies in this case. So here is my first real act as moderator of the forum. I'll give this thread the remainder of the day and then lets kiss it goodbye and get on with positve things that interest us. Do I have the forum's support in this? Lemme hear you say....YEAH!!!!
By BassLand (64.165.226.195 - 64.165.226.195) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 10:07 pm: |
Ralph,
Consider it done, thanks again for allowing the last word on the subject.
BL
By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:10 pm: |
BL
What troubled me in particular about this thread was that, me, as a layman, and Lowell as only co-host, nothing else, and trying to do his best for the city of Detroit, can suddenly be dragged into something we categorically do not want.
Quite honestly,I hardly know the difference between a Rhythm guitar and a Bass guitar. All I know and love is the finished product as many laypeople do.
Point here is, I haven't got a clue technically if Carol did these tracks at all.That is an absolute fact. What many of us on the site look at is the fact that she dropped her lawsuit. i think that has made people form opinions.
To the clever guy in the street, that does not mean she did not play on these records.
SoulfulDetroit was begun as a pipe dream of mine to meet and embrace the African American people of Detroit, who gave us most of this wonderful music that we have called Northern Soul for over thirty years.
James Jamerson is one of our greatest heroes. That is why I re-opened the thread.
It hurt me badly to think that once the dust had settled I have may done his memory a major injustice.
Please believe me I do not want that, but until the dust has settled I cannot allow this site to become a platform for the experts (and I mean that in the nicest possible way) who think the information available, proves Carol Kaye did not play a part in these recordings.
The bottom line is myself and especially Lowell do not have a clue.
Please respect this statement. Let's move on.
By Eli (64.12.102.163 - 64.12.102.163) on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
Amen!!! Our leader hath spoken his piece.
Let us move on and continue this wonderful mission called Soulful Detroit. And I emphasize SOULFUL!!!
By Bradburger (172.180.85.254 - 172.180.85.254) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:26 am: |
David,
As someone who took part in the original thread all I can say is I didn't mean to cause you any sleepless nights.
But because it is an issue I feel strongly about I felt at the time I should post a reply to the thread and that at least I could air my views on the subject and not have them censored as Bob Lee has experienced on Carol's forum.
However none of us would want Soulful Detroit to be faced with the prospect of lawsuits or closure so I don't blame you for removing the thread.
As you say 'Lets move On'
Cheers
Paul
By Rodney King (205.188.197.153 - 205.188.197.153) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:33 am: |
Why cant everybody just get along?
By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 01:58 am: |
The truth is out there... and I think it's been established.
So on to the next topic!
Jeff