By corvax (199.29.22.28 - 199.29.22.28) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 03:13 am:

It seems like many of the discussions on the board relate to the 60's, and altho i'm sure Mr. Whitfield was around during those times (and i will be schooled as to the details), as a teenager in the early 70's, the sound i associate with records produced/written by him really blew us away--the intense, upfront guitars, the emphatic production on songs like "Cloud Nine" and "Ball of Confusion". Alright, fill me in....what was he like, what was his background, what's he doing now?

By John Lester (213.1.179.51 - 213.1.179.51) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 06:44 am:

At present, Norman Whitfield is sitting on a completed album on the 4 Tops.....

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 11:37 am:

Norman started his musical career playing tambourine for Popcorn Wylies' band, The Mohawks. I'm not really sure if he's on those early Motown records of theirs, but I know he was on "I Love You" recorded by The Volumes in 1962 (Chex label).
I have a song by The Sonnettes (KO label) that Norman wrote, it dates from around 1962. He seems to have been hanging around the Thelma studio at the time (on Grand River), as he's also credited on some of their early releases too.
From what people have said to me he wasn't someone who gave clear, detailed instructions to the muscians; he simply asked them to do/play what they thought was right or most suitable, often giving them a vague outline of the type of thing he was looking for.
Clay McMurray could give you a more detailed account as they worked together a lot. Clay?
All the best, Graham

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 02:17 pm:

I agree Graham. If Clay is around he should answer this one. If he doesn't show up I will, but Clay and Norman were very close. In fact I first met Norman at Tera Shirma when he would accompany Clay to his recording sessions there.

By maredda (209.195.140.107 - 209.195.140.107) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 06:47 pm:

And Corvax, Norman (along with Frank Wilson, I would say) is one of the main writers responsible for bridging the gap between the 60s and 70s Motown eras. He was instrumental in the 60s, serving up goodies like "Too Many Fish In The See" for the Marvs, and taking over the Temptations (I still say they're Smoke's group though!) :-) He's more known for his 70s Tempts era, but he was right there alongside the other great 60s era Motown writers.

On another issue, the song "Lonesome Native Girl," what's the story behind it? Did any motown girls record it?

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 07:10 pm:

in the 60's, norman whitfield songs were recorded by marvelettes, jimmy ruffin. marvin gaye, temptations, miracles, velvelettes, kim weston, chuck jackson, gladys knight & the pips and many more.

he also owned the whitfield label (circa '76 onwards) on which he had major success with rose royce.

if you go to the 'soulhawk' page on soulfuldetroit you can see the garage in which norman played tambourine on practice sessions for the mohawks (circa'62).

By waz (209.210.72.2 - 209.210.72.2) on Friday, November 16, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

The British rock magazine MOJO recently featured an excellent article about the whole Whitfield era of the Tempts. I believe it was the September issue (Sly Stone is on the cover). It was written by Ben Edmonds (ex-Creem etc.). Lots of interesting info on the Motown scene at the time and some history of Mr. Whitfield himself.

Mojo can usually be found at Borders or Barnes & Noble. The magazine offers back issues, but those usually sell out quickly.

By corvax (24.17.235.97 - 24.17.235.97) on Sunday, November 18, 2001 - 01:23 am:

thanks, i will try to track it down

By Flash (12.89.73.69 - 12.89.73.69) on Sunday, November 18, 2001 - 05:47 am:

Norman Whitfield of course is best known for collaborating with Barrett Strong. Their composition of Heard it Through the Grapevine was recorded so many times by different artists and used in so many ads, movies and tv shows that who ever owns the rights to the song could live off its royalties. That one song was a career. And to think of all the other great stuff they wrote besides. Hopefully Barrett and Norman are still getting a piece of that action.

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Monday, November 19, 2001 - 04:59 am:

I once interviewed a singer in Detroit who assured me that Norman didn't have a thing to do with writing "Grapevine" as he was with the guy who did write it. This guy subsequently sold it to Norman.
Graham

By Bob Olhsson (24.6.39.201 - 24.6.39.201) on Wednesday, November 21, 2001 - 06:31 pm:

I find that a little hard to believe because Norman's approach was to create a compelling instrumental rhythm and then write or co-write lyrics to it.

Certainly Norman may have gotten some of the ideas from somebody else and given him some money for it. Norman has always been a meticulously ethical person in my experience. I've been told he stood up for me to others even though I always thought we didn't particularly get along. I had an interesting conversation about him recently with a woman who had co-written with him in LA around the time he was doing Car Wash. She had also seen his unusual obsession with always doing the right thing.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

I have to agree with Bob.Norman's talent was obvious. I would find it a little odd that he paid for songs when he had so much coming out of his head.Harry Balk used to tell me he wished he had three Norman Whitfields working in the studios.

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 06:29 am:

I'm not questioning Norman's vast writing skills, his credibilty or his integrity - but the guy I know wouldn't make this up about "Grapevine" - he gave intricate details about the circumstances surrounding the song & how & why the lyrics were penned, even how much Norman paid.

By John Lester (213.122.203.86 - 213.122.203.86) on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 10:35 pm:

And who might this person who wrote "Grapevine" be then?

By flash (12.89.173.50 - 12.89.173.50) on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 04:09 am:

Who is this mystery person who wrote Heard it Through the Grapevine and why isn't he suing the pants off Whitfield and Strong. Not to mention Berry Gordy. Deep pockets there. A lot of these songwriters who sold off their rights have been suing and winning in court. Look at Ronnie Spector who just won a suit for the song Be My Baby over her ex, Phil Spector. If this guy did indeed write the song, why isn't he suing for the royalties. That song is worth about 50 million dollars at least. How much did he sell it for? Probably not much money back in those days. And after 35 years he's not suing for the royalties.

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 09:36 am:

The reason I've been coy about this is because that's just what the guy is doing.

By J C O (195.93.32.174 - 195.93.32.174) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 10:08 pm:

That Sonnettes 45 on KC sounds alot later than 62. Does anyone know of any other pre-Mmotown Norman Whitfield compositions?

By John Lester (213.1.128.148 - 213.1.128.148) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 10:38 pm:

I have seen a reference to that Sonnettes 45 at Hitsville USA

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 10:39 am:

As I mentioned in my mail of Oct 31st - Norman was involved in some of the early Thelma label releases.
The lead singer of The Volumes (Eddie Union) told me that when they went to record a song they'd been practicing called "Answer Me" the producer (Popcorn Wylie) told them that he'd only just recorded the very same song with another group!
It was Richard Street & the Distants, and the writer credited on the label is Norman Whitfield. The Volumes didn't care as they recorded their "I Love You" instead, which was a big hit for them.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 09:29 pm:

here's an early whitfield production on thelma.

i think alberta adams still sings in detroit.

By John Lester (213.1.167.144 - 213.1.167.144) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 10:46 pm:

Wowee...David....that's a new one for a (golden) oldie like me

See - you learn something everyday....

I'd like to hear that...what year is that one then...

By Fury13 (12.2.196.17 - 12.2.196.17) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 12:13 am:

Alberta Adams does indeed perform frequently in the Detroit area; she tours too. She's a blues singer from way back. I know she played the Bizerte Bar (which became Phelps Lounge) back in the late '40s.

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:48 am:

The Alberta Adams and the Richard Street 45s are from c.1961/2.
Thelma was the name of Berry Gordy's first wife, but her parents really ran the company - Robert and Hazel Coleman. There was also sister label called GeGe. The address on the these early labels is a house on Dexter, but they moved down to store-front building on Grand River Ave c.1963. The label became part of the Motown Corporation around 1965.
A certain Clay McMurray wrote and produced some nice songs for Thelma - Emanuel Laskey's "Sweet Lies" for one.
Graham

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 12:16 am:

This should interest some of you. I worked on countless hits with Norman. On one song, he laid about 8 minutes of Rhythm King (before drum machines) on a track, to set a mood. Then Norman over-dubed drums, bass, guitars, track by track and ended up going over the Rhythm King. The name of the song was "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" by the Temps.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 12:56 am:

And this is something my brother just recently informed me of. I never knew this.( Hi Corky ) Norman Whitfield was on bad motha........Don't ever doubt that.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.7.97.165 - 62.7.97.165) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 08:53 am:

welcome to the forum russ.

we all dream of what it must have been like then, but you were there.

can't say much more than that.

except....i played three of the motown story albums last night.....you know the one, 10? L.P.'s in a blue box......and the engineer was russ terrana. it must have been interesting working on that? with so much talking, over, and in between the music.

great stuff.

By John Lester (213.122.190.200 - 213.122.190.200) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 02:31 pm:

So now we have Mr T2 AND Mr T3..Ha ha ha!!

Russ....what about Rosie!!!!

Ha ha ha ha....

By John Lester (213.122.190.200 - 213.122.190.200) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 02:55 pm:

Russ

Are you able to tell us about some of your experiences at Hitsville USA - all for the benefit of us Brit's to enjoy.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 07:25 pm:

Russ,
these guys sure seemed fixated on good old Rosie. All we did was **&^^%$###++""_)(( AND... ((*&&^^^$$@@!!....not to mention ##$^&&*($$#@@@??**..Hmmmmm.... my computer seems to be breaking up here. I wonder if my story got through?
Actually these guys are scarier than Scotland Yard. Wouldn't surprise me if they tracked Rosie down for a personal interview. If you find her, tell her to &&*%%$^^*)&$#@T)(*&^% oh damn...there goes my computer again.

By John Lester (213.122.196.225 - 213.122.196.225) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 09:03 pm:

Ralph.....

Is that all you did! And there was me thinking that it was a "CZX%2Q)97" - oh dear, looks like this computer bug is affecting me too!!

HA HA HA

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

See John,
The whole thing just got blown way out of proportion. All we were doing was **%$$&##@ around. ( ooops..there it goes again. Maybe if I give the keyboard a good whack )

By Ed Wolfrum (165.121.215.193 - 165.121.215.193) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 01:34 am:

Hello Ralph and Russ,

Who was this Rosie?? She never came by United when I was there. Wha she the one who @#S@@#!#&D everyone in town?

In any case I will have to put my 2 cent in about Norman as he drifted by both Golden World (Russ knows about the midnight sessions there with the funk brothers.) as well as United. He was ALWAYS of the highest integrity. I can't understand why he would NEED to borrow material from anyone else as talented as he was.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 01:44 am:

Ed,
How are you doing old friend? Long time no see. Next time I blow into Detroit I will look you up. You're right about Norman.
As far as Rosie goes...the band holds her in the highest esteem.

By John Lester (213.122.202.99 - 213.122.202.99) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 05:16 am:

Hello Ed Wolfrum

Can you tell us all a bit about your input to our beloved music....those late nite sessions with the Funk Brothers sound just what we want to know about!

And a special request from me....can you recall your Motown check letter? There is a topic on this site "Motown Engineer and Producer check letters" which I started....I listed what I know and I am anxious to complete the listing so if you know any others, I would be grateful......

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:41 pm:

Ahhh Rosie ... she sure brings a smile. Hi John, sood to see you in here.

By Ralph Terrrana (198.81.16.187 - 198.81.16.187) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 07:46 pm:

I'm typing this from out of town. Russ if i remember correctly, you were smiling the most!I'll be back home tomorrow.

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Friday, December 14, 2001 - 12:14 am:

A smile is a frown turned upside down ... can you dig it! ("Smiling Faces Sometime" ... Undisputed Truth)

By John Lester (213.122.200.254 - 213.122.200.254) on Friday, December 14, 2001 - 07:52 am:

What a classic.......what a classic....I bet you (Russ) were so pleased when that hit the top of the charts. I loved that hissing on "Beware, beware of the hand shake that bites a snake...hisssssss (can you dig it can you dig it)....and the sound of that door slamming. BANG! Wasn't this 45 so different to what was out at that time. It was really an atmospheric record for me, one that I could just absorb myself in and forget about all my horrible exams that I was studying for at that time.

.......and what knocks me out even further is that the Temps version is equally as good. Paul Riser's strings were incredible.

However, we ought to meantion that that line you use was on (Smokey's) Caroline Crawford's My Smile Is Just A Frown (Turned Upside Down) Motown 1064 in August 1964 - and mention should be made of the Temps who had their version issued on Motown Treasures - an absolute must for lovers of the Detroit Sound.

Russ. Seeing a mention of that Undisptued Truth track has set me up in a good mood for the day....thanks......woweee - what a classic.