By Steve Robinson (207.74.133.103 - 207.74.133.103) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:00 pm:

>The organ next to it was some sort of
>Hammond, but not a B3. It was always my
>intention to put a B3 in there (after all...
>it was MY instrument of choice when I was
>still playing) but I never was able to do it.

For all intents and purposes, the organ in the picture IS a Hammond B-3. That organ is an A100, which had the exact internal components as a B-3/C-3 console. So, if you miked the Leslie, you had the EXACT Hammond B-3 sound!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 12:50 am:

Steve,
A-100's were slightly different than B 3's. For one thing, they lacked percussion. I think that is what bothered me most about that particular organ. But you are absolutely correct...it was an A 100. Thanks or remnding me.

By Steve Robinson (204.39.228.243 - 204.39.228.243) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:59 am:

Ralph:

How cool to get a message from you! You should have seen me as I took the vitrual tour of the old studio. I was literally on the edge of my seat.

I feel odd correcting you, but A100s certainly had percussion--my 1959 A100 does, and all A100s had it through the end of production in 1965. Perhaps the percussion did not work on your organ. Very detailed Hammond info is available online:

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/all_hammonds.html

The A100, B3, and C3 are identical with two key exceptions: 1) the cabinet style, and 2) the internal speaker system. The B3 was the classic Hammond cabinet style that dates back to the A model from the 1930s. The C cabinet is a church style cabinet. Earlier models like the BV, CV, B2, and C2 lacked percussion. B3/C3/A100 organs all have percussion. They share the same 91-freq. tonewheel generator and the same preamp. They all have "harmonic foldback" in the lower register. The keyboards, vibrato scanner, preamp, drawbars assemblies, EVERYTHING, is identical on the inside. Those parts didn't know if they were going into an A100, B3, or C3 until someone at Hammond started putting them inside a console cabinet.

(On A100 organs, the A0-28 preamp is mounted upside down, and the expression pedal pot is wired in reverse to accomodate this--but they are the same parts.)

The A100 you had in the studio was electrically identical to a B3 with two exceptions: it had an internal power amp (driving two 12" speakers) and a reverb amp (driving an additional 12" speaker). These speakers were mounted facing the musician just above the pedals.

Again, if you miked the Leslie in the studio, you had THE B3 sound (unless the percussion on your A100 didn't work). Many of the "B3" organs heard on classic organ recordings are actually C3s or A100s.

Which leads to an interesting engineering question: what method did you use to mic the Leslie?

Again, it's so great to be talking with you about this!

Respectfully,

Steve Robinson, Hammond Freak

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 06:12 am:

Steve,
I stand corrected. Then there was something I don't seem to remember in not being thrilled with that organ. Didn't Hammond regulate the " clicks " in A100's as they did in some of their earlier Church models? I'm not electronically versed here, but something about how the current was resisted to get the specific click. Do you know what I'm trying to say here? I remember something about the click being to loud in some of the earlier models and they came up with a way to regulate the intensity. Could this have been the case in the A100 Vs. the B3? Or maybe you're right in that the percussion had a problem on this particular organ. Anywy, nice talking to a Hammond freak. I owned two B3s and I loved both of them.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 06:19 am:

Steve,
P.S....Don't feel odd correcting me. People have been doing it all my life. Glad you enjoyed the studio tour. Oh...also...you would need to talk to Russ or Bob Ohlsson as far as what Mic they preferred on a Leslie. Perhaps Bob will see this and respond.

By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:45 am:

We had a Farfisa when I was a kid. My organ lessons were around the 'Anchor Way' if anybody has heard of that! Twenty of us sat at an organ (not the same one), in a room, learning to play with them all switched off!! Then you would go home and practice. Then we moved to an Italian one, cannot remember the name, but it had a Bell & Howell variable speed cassette recorder/player in it and a basic drum machine - this was 1974! It did have rotary speakers though. I could not coordinate the foot bass, volume pedal and notes at the same time. It was the only room in the house with no rodents in it. No wonder I work in a TV station!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 02:39 pm:

Carl,
In the 60's Farfisa organs enjoyed some popularity. In all honesty, I couldn't stand the sound of them.
The Sunliners were booked to play some sort of concert where drums, amplifiers and an organ would be furnished. We had told the promoter that the organ must be a B3. When we arrived, I looked on stage and there in all it's glory was a Farfisa. I didn't know what to do with this thing. One thing about B3s which I'm sure Steve will back me up on. They were the heaviest SOBs to lug around. No wonder I have a lousy back these days.

By Carl DixonLondon (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

And the B3 still lives on.... But, the Farfisa crops up as sound patches in synth modules these days. I suppose if you want the sound of a particular hit, that did not use a Hammond, these other names will be around. What was the name of the organ on Timmy Thomas' hit, 'Why can't we live together?' circa 1972/3?. Did I once hear that was the first record to use an on board drum machine off the organ??

The Farfisa sounded tinny and no wonder they did not last, though I really know nothing about the beast.Our local music shop stocked them, plus 'Thomas' stuff, if I remember. My parents always took me to the 'demo' evenings where we sat with out tongues hanging out as professionals played with the new toys. My dad always spoke about the Leslie speaker. I always thought he meant somebody at Hyde Park Corner giving a speech. Eventually, they exchanged the organ for a piano then moved abroad. I have regrets about my piano and organ lessons. I gave them up when I was 17 to go dancing can you believe. I had found something more interesting than Mozart and Bach and little did I know that the new composers of my choice then would be chatting to us on this forum. If it wasn't for that decision in 1973, there is no way I would be on here talking about the Farfisa organ for sure!! And thank god so. Had I knew about Motown and soul, I would have probably kept at it, trying to mimic the guys. Only if Ralph!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:01 pm:

Carl,
I suppose life is all about choices and in so any ways you may be better off at the TV station. Music as a proffesion is not the easiest row to hoe.I was getting ready for medical school when I signed my first recording contract and changed directions.It's a decision I don't regret but I have definitely had my ups and downs in this business. There were times, when my life got strange, my typically Italian mother would tell me she regretted ever giving me the opportunity of music lessons.
Now at this stage of my life ( I'll be 60 in July ) I fully realize the road I took was the one that was meant for me to take, but, for me, the road was strewn with bumps and potholes. I'm sure the fact that I have four past wives scattered in the past was a result of navigating this uncertain road. I do carry a certain amount of envy for those that have lived a more " normal " life. However, music has always sustained me through the bad times and I wouldn't change a thing I've done with my life.

By Steve Robinson (204.39.228.234 - 204.39.228.234) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:37 pm:

Yes, Ralph. The "keyclick" feature present in early tonewheel organs was considered an engineering defect, but was very desirable to jazz players. It sounds like a click or a pop. In fact, registrations used by jazz organists like Jimmy Smith actually enhance the keyclick sound. Later designs attempted to eliminate keyclick, but not on B3/C3/A100 organs. This feature has become part of the signature Hammond sound--in fact, you can pay thousands of dollars for MIDI equipment that emulates the sound.

If the rig in the picture was working correctly, you had the classic B3 sound happening in your studio. If the Leslie in the picture was a two-speed model, it was either a 147 or a 122. Both have the classic Leslie sound.

B3s and C3s were made from 1955-1974.
A100s were made from 1959-1965.

You're also correct about the weight: each of the B3s you owned weighed 425 lbs. with bench and pedals. Moving one without a special dolly is a major pain. They're also bulky and awkward to move.

Steve Robinson
Hammond Hobbyist

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:43 pm:

Words of wisdom Ralph! I am sure if push came to shove, I would still want to stand by the side of the dance floor in 1974 listening and analysing all this music too. It has made me the person I am and it was meant to be,... at that time though!

I am hungry for something else now and I do not know whether to think with my heart or head. I know somebody who is about thirty years old (well, who doesn't?) who is saying he has a good job and pension with great job security...at that age!! I have other ambitions to contemplate and frankly before I move on out and move up there, I intend to create something that people will enjoy, whether music or lyrics! I certainly will not give up the day job, but something is pushing me from deep within to be creative and move forward with my ambitions. I love my music so much that on my days off I write, compose, listen, analyse and try to understand why I am not interested in going out with the boys to do normal things like pubbing it or whatever!

I am trying to learn the bass guitar as well. I realised in the clubs that I was always making a bass line up as the song progressed and eventually I realised that I had a sort of knack for a hook, with the bass line. When I eventually bought my first sequencer it became more prevalent the importance of the bass line and rhythm section. With that in mind I have progressed to playing by ear with a bass guitar, but being critical to some bass lines I hear in songs both old and new thinking I could possibly match or do better - a little pretentious for somebody who cannot play properly yet, I know, but in my heart, that's what I want to do. You guys must realise now that your contribution to people like me is phenomenal. You are all part of the family and our holidays together are the songs we sing and stories we remember by chatting on this forum. You have made me want to do all these things and given me something to hope and dream about for now and the future. The songs we speak about and hooks I hear are the photographs of those holidays in music terms to me and are tonics to pick me up when I have had a bad day at work, when all that seems to matter is bad news and Sport - almost 24 hours a day. I cannot wait to get home and listen to the stuff written/produced/engineered by those on this forum and others from around the world.

What I am really saying is I am after some music lessons!! So, I could not find better teachers anywhere in the world but here on the forum, after all they have been showing me their skills for almost 35 years and never tire of playing for me, whether they are still alive or not, their souls have great powers! If that makes any sense Ralph.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:21 pm:

Carl,
Everything you said makes perfect sense to me. Oh hell!! Quit your day job and join the club.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:24 pm:

Hopefully, one day I will!

Cheers

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

Steve,
I have spent hours and hours listening to Jimmy Smith, Jimmy Mc Griff, Brother Jack McDuff, and Shirley Scott. Great influences with me and the Hammond.All of them were such great players.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:27 pm:

Do you know someone called 'Earl Grant'? Hide nor hair fame. I have an album with him sat at a Hammond I think.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:33 pm:

I'm not familiar with that name Carl.I must say, for me, this is a breath of fresh air discussing B3s. I'm always surrounded by these guitar player types and they don't speak my language. Sorry Bobby, Dennis Babbitt, Russ, etc. etc. You guys can be freaking aliens to me at times.

By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

Alright Ralph, here is a test for you!!! What is the frequency of middle 'c' and why is it so?? he he he!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

Carl,
I think middle C is something like 523.6 cycles per second. I'm not sure I understand the question though. As a tuner I use an A fork which is 440 CPS, which is considered concert pitch. Concert pitch is an interesting phenomena. It varied from country to country at one time. Up until the late 1920's concert pitch was 435CPS in the U.S. In Europe the pitch varied depending on the countery. I'm not sure what England was at the time. At any rate, as the world grew smaller a lot of reciprocating began taking place with musicians of the various countries. If an American violinist was used to tuning to A 435 and then had to tune to another frequency in a different country, it became a problem based on a perspective of what they were used to hearing. And violinist's hear pitch very well, trust me. So somewhere about this time a meeting took place in Vienna where it was decided 440CPS would become International pitch. And until recent years this pitch has served everyone well.However, lately it has become fashionable to boost the pitch up a notch or two. Some concert masters feel it gives the orchestra a lttle edgier sound.Therefore, many tuners are getting requests to tune at 442 CPS and even higher.
As a former member of the Piano Tecnician's Guild, I adhere to their thinking that this is not a good idea. First of all, the fine old violins like the Strads and Amatis were never designed for the tension resulting from even the more modern tuning frequencies such as 435 and 440. Until the advent of the cast iron plate in pianos which allowed higher tension and larger diameter wire resulting in a bigger sound. tuning frequencies were much lower. In fact, today some musicians who own these fine old violins are refusing to tune them any hgher than 440 for fear of damaging the instrument.
Ummmmm...Carl...what the hell was your question? I was rambleing.

By Steve Robinson (207.74.133.103 - 207.74.133.103) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:00 pm:

Great players, all. We just lost Shirley Scott. She died last week.

Sad news.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:12 pm:

I'm sorry to hear this Steve. Shirley was a great musician and I learned much by listening to her great recordings.

Steve....stay tuned. Just this morning I ran into a keyboard player friend of mine who happened to mention a particular model Hammond that was available for sale from a school.We got into an interesting discussion regarding B3's and A100's. He's going to come on the forum later today.His name is Mark Milligan and he is one hell of a great keyboard player.

I must say guys...I'm enjoying this thread.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:47 pm:

Ralph that was interesting, to say the least. I was aware of concert pitch and on my first synth, there was something like 20 different tuning methods available - things from different centuries that are historical and to me, complicated. One I researched said something like the major 3rd was tweeked up a bit in laymans terms to give the tone a difference -Wackmeister or somebody developed it! I know as a child I used to stick paper down between the strings and hammers for that buzzy old fashioned feel. I think I knew of someone who used to take his piano strings off and boil them in a pan of water!! Or was that guitar strings? Ralph, I think you past that test. I went to an old piano shop where I used to live and asked whether I could go in and watch what they did.They refurbished old models and the stories they told me. They used to strip them down and find the most glorious wood underneath. It seems it was a fashion to paint the pianos at the beginning of this century. Also the guy told me one day a piano frame cracked and as all the strings made this amazing noise as every frequency was transported through the airwaves. I also learnt that the wood from the German Black Forest dried up because of the first world war trench requirements and thus the quality of their piano output went down. Very interesting.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:16 pm:

Carl,
Today pianos are tuned to what is known as equal temperament.The alternative tuning schemes on your synth represent but a small portion of the many schemes once in popular use.
I once attended a lecture at Michigan State University, where the famed piano tuner Owen Jeorgenson was lecturing on the various historical temperaments.

What was interesting was what I learned regarding Bach's work for the Well Tempered Clavier.

Owen had five pianos on stage. One was equaly tempered and the remaning four were tempered to a specific historical temperament that was used for that particular Bach piece. He would first play the piece on the equally tempered piano, and then re-play it on the piano that was tempered specifically for that piece. The differences were astonishing and you were hearing it as Bach had intended it to sound.

Yes, a lot of nice wood was covered up over the years. I have seen a lot of very nice restorations.

I is a rarity for plates to break on a piano. Most tuners spend their carreers without ever experiencing this. I have had two go on me. One while I was tuning it. When it's approximately 18 tons of tension let loose it was lke a bomb going off. My ears were ringing all day, and believe me, with all my loud studio experiences, it took a lot to make my ears ring.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:34 pm:

Wow Ralph! Great thread. I did not know it was 18 tons of tension. That's what I feel at work sometimes when I bring in the WWF!! Next time your over here, I will take you to the Brentford Music museum. It is only small, but houses some great Pianollas. I cannot remember the correct name for them, as that was a 'trade' name like Hoover if I am not mistaken. The guy that runs it took a liking to me when he found out that I play a little like Charlie Kunz, or so I like to think so. Then he met my 81-year-old mum and she played in this restaurant one night on his Pianolla and she got a standing ovation! It was unbelievable. She played all the classics from the 30's and 40's without any sheet music and all in E flat, because that is all she can play in. I used to harmonise with her as a child on the piano, that is why I feel I can cope with a bass line, because I spent so much time trying to work out what notes sounded the best.

By Eli (152.163.204.196 - 152.163.204.196) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:06 am:

WOW!! I never knew that someone's organ could excite so many!!(lol) Very informative, to say the least. Ralph, I want to hear you do some of that classic trio s**t!! Carl, the organ on the Timmy Thomas record was a Lowery and the "drums" were a Rhythm Ace which was outlawed by the musicians union , as they felt that it took away income from someone who would played live.
I know this because I have actually been to T.K. right after Why don't they... and Steve Alaimo gave me the tour. I saw the tiny studio that makes the snakepit look like Carnegie Hall!!
They were just building a newer room as well.
KC was a stockroom manager in the distribution arm, Tone .
I was there to do my deal for Eli's Second Coming, and I first met Timmy there as well
I believe that he also was a schoolteacher.

By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:07 pm:

Lowrey - now I remember! And the rhythm ace thing, I saw it when it was launched over here, late sixties or maybe early seventies. That was a good record and the follow up, I think was called 'People are changing' - could be wrong! Ralph, I was in a bookshop today and picked up this small book about disagreements around the world or something. It turns out that it was to do with piano tuning and how the Greeks found out mathematically how to tune instruments. It was a shock as it looked like nothing to do with pianos on the front. I only picked up two books to look at. The other one was the 500 Greatest Northern Soul records and one of the record labels covers on the front was a Detroit track 'Time will pass you by' by Tobi Legend and there was John Rhys' name under the title! The fact that I listened to his programme on BluePower only the other day and heard that track for the first time - what does all this mean?

Wonder where Timmy Thomas is now?

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:30 pm:

Carl,
You're obviously plugged into some other dimension. Spooky huh? As I write this I'm waiting for John Rhys to show up at my house. He's coming in from L.A. today. I haven't seen him in 20 years. I'll be taking pics for the forum, naturally.

PS...from what I remember the Greeks used the Pythagoran Theorum to work out their early tuning schemes.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:38 pm:

Ralph

Wow! I wish I could tell my old Maths teacher...

We've been toiling for centuries over the "square on the hypotenuse" when Pythagoras' Theorem actually refers to TUNING a triangle!

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.155 - 62.31.40.155) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:48 pm:

Ralph - tell John about this!! It really is spooky! I think somebody is pulling my 'strings' so to speak. Tell him I have the Sam Bowie and Kenny Gamble singles he played and I loved the story about that Arctic session. Even a mate at work was listening and could not believe his ears.

By Eli (205.188.197.161 - 205.188.197.161) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

I was told that pi r square.
I thought that pie are round!!(lol)Eli

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Ritchie,
The Naval Postgraduate School is here in Monterey. The U.S. Navy sends their brightest here for post graduate study.
In one of the engineering classes, there was a chapter in the text they were using that dealt with the properties of viberating piano wire. ( oh oh I feel a Bobby Eli mot coming on ) There exists many complex formulae for determing partials etc. So every year when the present class got to that part of the text book, my phone would start to ring.I would dig through journals and help these guys as well as I could. It was quite an education for me also.

By Eli (205.188.197.161 - 205.188.197.161) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:57 pm:

Vibrating piano wire IN THE NAVY??
Mmmmm.. very interesting indeed.
All those men in close proximity for such a long time can lead to all sorts of experimentation!!
The Village People must have studdied that one!!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:07 pm:

Bobby

I guess you know all about this stuff after working with the Vibrations.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:10 pm:

Bobby,
You are SO COOL M........r. You are one dependable dude.

By Eli (152.163.197.204 - 152.163.197.204) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:51 pm:

Thanks , and I am still vibrating and ooooohhhh..
it feels soo.. gggoood!!!!!Mmmm..

By Eli (152.163.197.204 - 152.163.197.204) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:53 pm:

it's amazing that the sheer mention of the word ORGAN, would involve such a LONG thread!!!

By John Lester (213.122.191.39 - 213.122.191.39) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 09:15 pm:

BOBBY....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

I laughed so loud, I couldn't type.

Bobby..your talents are wasted. get up on stage..as a comedian this time. LOL

By phillysoulman (64.12.107.47 - 64.12.107.47) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:25 pm:

I will have to change my name to Jackie, something, as all of the vintage Jewish comedians are named Jackie. I will do a SIT DOWN act instead of a stand up one, though!!I thang God all the time for the gift of "the lighter side of things" although it has gotten me into some precarious situations in the past!!
Several years ago I went to do some gigs with the Tymes down south, I asked them to ask for the"colored " restroom. There was a confederate flag and a racist type old woman in the roadside shop. So when this happened I was hiding behind a showcase laughing as she proceeded to make a call, and it may have been to the cops. We took off across the Mason-Dixon line!!!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:36 pm:

Of course there's no such thing as "escaping over the County Line" here in England. Chuck Berry would never have got off the ground if he'd been English. But then again, here we don't have redneck sheriffs to escape from either. And you can't really imagine "The Dukes of Haslingden" either!

By Eli (152.163.206.199 - 152.163.206.199) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:47 am:

Or the Dukes of Manchester!!