By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 08:44 pm:

I've always wondered what happened to the masters that Motown acquired in various ways over the years. These were labels such as Anna, Harvey, Tri-Phi, and of course Golden World. Is it purely wishful thinking to imagine that early masters by David Ruffin, the Spinners, Ty Hunter and so on are safely locked away somewhere? Or, were those that couldn't be "recycled" simply junked?

Is it also just my imagination, to wonder if it will be left to a future generation of musical archaeologists to rediscover any treasures that might possibly still be hiding there?

Finally, a horror story to chill your bones....

I remember reading with shocked disbelief that when the Chess warehouse was being cleared out, the new owner asked what was in all the boxes. "Records" was the inevitable reply.
"Any hits?" was the next question.
When it was discovered that the boxes contained "only old Blues and R&B stuff", the order was given to dispose of them.

Countless pallets of unsold, mint condition Chess/Checker records were cut up with a chain-saw and sent to a landfill site.

Don't you just love the music business?

By John Lester (213.122.197.4 - 213.122.197.4) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 08:59 pm:

Harry W will tell you that any masters that belong to Motown are being well cared for and looked after..

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 09:05 pm:

Sorry John

Should have expected a reply from you ;o)
Serves me right for thinking aloud online!

I'm absolutely sure you're right. As I was listening to Ty Hunter and the early David Ruffin this afternoon, it just set me thinking, especially as I then moved on to a Chess Soul compilation (Just Keep On Dancing)...

No offence intended, honest. Harry's doing a fine job, as far as we can see from this side of the pond :o)

By brianday (212.137.252.108 - 212.137.252.108) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 09:08 pm:

i believe there was a plastic shortage,and they were simply melted down.i used to buy these soul packs 10 for a pound ,i used to give all my doubles of ric-tic ,soul etc away to freinds.
stupid fool i was ,now they are trying to sell them back to me at silly prices.i wonder if there are still bargain shops in the states?
bobby will know

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

Motown's tape librarian was an amazing woman named Fran Hurd. Over time she developed the tape code system that could get you to that exact tape in a few seconds. The tape library was a rather large room with these very large motor driven shelved cabinets that rotated like a Ferris Wheel. The title of the song was cross indexed with a code number which designatd reel numbers and take numbers on the particular reel.

While I would wait for Fran to retrieve a particular tape for me I would wonder at the monetary value of all the tapes I would see cycling past on the machine as Fran did her magic.

By Ian W (213.122.180.181 - 213.122.180.181) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

You've found the ultimate juke-box Ralph!

By phillysoulman (152.163.195.184 - 152.163.195.184) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 11:12 pm:

Brian,
Nothing in philly is a bargain, especially vintage records.The shops are overpriced and sometimes the origiallity is doubtful.
Most folks don't care about original labels and
there are actually some store personnel who use Motown as an all encompasing generic term as in Vaseline!! I.E. "You mean like Aretha Franklin??
They equate all music of that era as Motown!!!!
TSK TSK TSK!!!!!

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, March 17, 2002 - 11:34 pm:

Well put Ian.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:33 am:

Hi Bobby

I think the use of the word "Motown" to include all forms of vintage R&B is pretty widespread. I have "Motown" as a saved search on eBay, and it constantly returns listings saying things like

RARE OTIS REDDING 45 SOUL MOTOWN
RARE '64 LP ALBUM DRIFTERS MOTOWN
SOUL MOTOWN O'JAYS SHIP AHOY LP MINT

Then I have to sift through them to find the records that actually are the real McCoy.

Still can't find that 1964 Drifters album on Motown though ;o)

By John Lester (213.122.193.5 - 213.122.193.5) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:19 am:

Ralph

Fran Heard seems to have had an assistant.....Faye (Janet) Hale....does that ring any bells with you?

Are you talking about the DM reference....like DM905M04..would refer to tape 905 and the mono version of track 4.

Otherwise known as "It Takes All Kinds Of People" by Stoney & Meatloaf.....(grin)

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 02:51 pm:

John,
Faye Hale worked in some other division of the company, but I don't remember where.Fran did have a young girl assisting her during the day ( her name escapes me ), and a young man named Kenny who worked nights.

In all honesty, I don't remember anything about the coding system but leave it to you John to come up with a possibility.

By phillysoulman (152.163.197.72 - 152.163.197.72) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 02:59 pm:

Ritchie,
The funny thing is that the Tempts had that one off Atlantic album in the seventies,done in Philly and it was strange working on it knowing that it was on Atlantic. We later did some sides for Gordy done in Philly though.
Could you imagine how the Drifters would have sounded had they recorded for Motown??

Eli

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

Bobby,
The Drifters were not meant to be a Motown act as far as I'm concerned. You guys did just fine with them.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:01 pm:

Ralph - Bobby

There was a time in the mid-to-late 60s when the Drifters were desperate for another hit and Alantic shuffled them from producer to producer in search of gold. In an attempt to grab a piece of Detroit-type action, they cut Baby What I Mean (Hamilton/Sheldon) in 1966 and were teamed with Ronnie Savoy for Up Jumped The Devil (where Bill Fredricks was asked to attempt an Eddie Kendricks-style falsetto). "It was horrible!" he commented in a 1971 interview. Next up was Robert Bateman with Still Burning in My Heart.

All of these atempts to Motown-ise the group bombed, possibly proving that the Drifters did best what they did best!

By John Lester (213.122.195.14 - 213.122.195.14) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:29 pm:

Baby What I Mean Was one of the few non-Motown records I ever bought (besides Dusty).....backed with Aretha....what a fabulous record and it sounds jsut as good today, scratches and all, as it did back in 1966/7.

WONDERFUL.

I didn't know Bob Bateman worked with them. Now I missed out Still Burning In My Heart...I was so focussed on Motown, I think I missed out sometimes.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:28 am:

John

I wasn't implying these were bad records (I love Baby What I Mean too!) - they were just a little out of character.

Johnny Moore seemed to be able to handle just about anything. I'd have loved to have heard him on a set of Bacharach songs.... Just imagine him on Magic Potion, for example.

By phillysoulman (205.188.199.43 - 205.188.199.43) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

Lou Johnson was one of my favourite Bacharach artistes, if not THE favourite. The original Message to Martha!!!! Where is he now I wonder??
Thom Bell was a Bacharach devotee as well.

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.125.243 - 213.122.125.243) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

'unsatisfied' is one of the greatest northern soul records of all time.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:46 pm:

Somewhere down the line, Burt Bacharach's contribution to early sixties Soul has been rather overlooked. There's a great compilation CD in there somewhere!

Bobby - Talk of the devil.. I was only listening to the Lou Johnson CD this morning!

By Eli (205.188.199.43 - 205.188.199.43) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:55 pm:

There is a great Bacharach compilation on A&M that I have. 3 cds worth of gems. All the way from Perry Como to Patti La belle.
Also a Scepter box set!!

By Ian W (62.6.71.108 - 62.6.71.108) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:41 pm:

'Reach Out For Me'! That song is sex-on-a-stick. Awesome!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:45 pm:

I hate to say this, but does anyone know if Mr Johnson is still around?

By M.McLeanTech (63.210.114.219 - 63.210.114.219) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

John Lester,

I happened to notice your posting in "The Songs That Motown Forgot" dated March 18, 2002 - 9:19 AM, in which you said:

"Are you talking about the DM reference....like DM905M04..would refer to tape 905 and the mono version of track 4.�

I met a schoolmate in 1953 who was a really smart person with a very high IQ. His name is Richard Cogger, and he made me look like a dunce. We became pals, and spent a lot of time together during my teenage years working on various projects. We built a pair of motor scooters powered by a lawn mower engine. We welded up the frame out of electrical conduit (tubing).

In the summer of 1961 I needed help, so I hired Cogger at Motown. He became involved in a project to clean up the tape library. Brian Holland had been the tape librarian, but his mind was not oriented around the concepts that make for good library practices. There had been some problems finding tapes. This assignment was a natural for Cogger. His mother was a science teacher, and his father was an electrical engineer.

It was Cogger who hired Fran Hurd. Further, Cogger was the person who actually designed the numbering system that starts with "DM," which stands for "Duplicate Master."

I remember very clearly having a conversation with Cogger (in 1961) in which he told me that this DM number was stamped on every Motown Record made. He said that it gave him quite a feeling to realize that in the future, any time, anywhere, he picked up a Motown record, he could look at that DM number and remember that it was his decision to select the format of that number.

Richard Cogger ended up at Cornell University, in Ithaca, New York. He became a computer scientist, and headed a team that developed a very advanced system that allows the Internet to be used as the link between computers that function like a "Picture Telephone." You can talk to your friend using a telephone while seeing your friend's video image on your monitor screen. All without long distance charges.

If you search on "Richard Cogger" with a search engine like www.google.com, you can get a whole lot of hits that will tell you more about him. However, none of those hits will have anything about Motown. It's all computer talk.

I hope this is of some help.

Mike McLean

By john lester (213.1.133.20 - 213.1.133.20) on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 09:14 pm:

Mike

You blew me away with that...I needed to know all that and more....wowee.....

Can I ask about Faye Janet Hale - where did she fit into all this?

Who were the people you were working with in those days...

Mike...I know I have to wait my turn...it's OK with me.......

By john lester (213.1.130.74 - 213.1.130.74) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 08:09 am:

When it's my turn Mike

If DM means Duplicate Master....(we used to think it meant Detroit Master!!), can you explain why "duplicate" - duplicate of what? Where is the original then? Are you suggesting that there is more than one copy? Where would it be then?

Did Richard Cogger also set up the check letter system for engineers and producers and did you have a check letter? (check letter M is one of the hard ones to decipher - early on it was Mickey Gentile and later on, our man Clay McMurray!) I have gone through my collection of 45's to associate the letters with the people and I have gaps...any ideas where I might be able to fill in my gaps?

Did you have much contact with writer, producers Staunton - Walker - two guys that have virtually never been written about until this site came along?

By M.McLeanTech (209.245.73.86 - 209.245.73.86) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 06:51 pm:

John,

Motown had no disc recording lathe, so the original master tape had to be sent out to places like Bell Sound, Columbia Custom Records, or RCA Custom Records. Since replacement masters had to be cut as the stampers wore out, these custom houses would hold the original master tape.

I assume that sooner or later, the original master tapes would be returned to Motown on the basis of good business practice.

In order to have a copy on hand for protection and reference, a copy of the master was made before sending the original out. This was called the "duplicate master."

I never heard of the "check letter system." Soon after he got Fran Hurd up and running, Cogger quit Motown. All that fancy stuff with the motor driven shelves in the tape library that Ralph talked about was installed long after Cogger left: under Fran Hurd's watch.

I have told you about all I know about the tape library and the numbering system.

I never heard of Staunton-Walker.

Cheers,

Mike McLean

By john Lester (213.1.137.156 - 213.1.137.156) on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 08:56 pm:

Thank you Mike...and to the others, sorry if I jumped a turn!!