By Poly Esther (64.12.107.47 - 64.12.107.47) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 03:06 pm:| By Poly Esther (64.12.107.47 - 64.12.107.47) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 03:06 pm: |
In my quest for historical accuracy, does anyone have their opinion as to what the very first Northern soul records were , and how they got to be revered in that manner?
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 03:59 pm: |
i hope this post gets a lot of response. dave rimmer would be good at this one as would davie gordon.
i'll make a haphazard effort later.
a mega difficult question!
| By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 04:15 pm: |
Hi
As David says, it's a great question, and one that's sure to engender a long and heated debate!
I can tell you for sure that certain nutters due North of London were listening to sixties Soul classics a long time before Dave Godin coined the name for this type of music. I pride myself in being one of that crowd, but there was no desire to start a "movement" - it was just a taste for the older sounds and vintage Motown.
If you want my thoughts on the subject, check out this page on my website, (jokingly) called "What the Hell is Northern Soul?"
You'll find it at:
http://www.ritchie-hardin.com/soul/wotsns.html
There's also a couple of listings of the Top Ten club records from 1969/70 linked from that page.
| By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 04:24 pm: |
I agree Ritchie
In Hull, 1973, we listened to Ric Tic stuff and had no idea there was a term Northern Soul. When I first heard the words I refused to use them at one stage. However, I have mellowed with age and got better looking by all accounts, and accept the term now!!
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 04:43 pm: |
OK, first of all, it's a difficult question to answer accurately, because people were expressing a preference for older records before the term "Northern Soul" was coined. So, do you take the starting point as when the "movement" was recognised, or the actual grass-roots? I'd take the latter, personally.
So, here's an early favourites list, ca. 1970-72... (some of them anyway.) They're in no particular order - just off the top of my head. By the way, I'm deliberately not including Motown cuts!
TAMMI LYNN - I'M GONNA RUN AWAY FROM YOU
BOBBI LYNN - EARTHQUAKE
BOBBI WELLS - LET'S COPP A GROOVE
SHOWSTOPPERS - AINT NOTHIN BUT A HOUSEPARTY
HOAGY LANDS - THE NEXT IN LINE
JAMES & BOBBY PURIFY - LET LOVE COME BETWEEN US
SHIRLEY & THE SHIRELLES - LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO MY HEART
J.J. BARNES - PLEASE LET ME IN
BOBBY HEBB - LOVE LOVE LOVE
DRIFTERS - I'LL TAKE YOU WHERE THE MUSIC'S PLAYING
TAMS - BE YOUNG BE FOOLISH BE HAPPY
BOBBY BLAND - CALL ON ME
TOMMY NEAL - GOING TO A HAPPENING
GENE CHANDLER - NOTHING CAN STOP ME
LITTLE ANTHONY & IMPERIALS - GONNA FIX YOU GOOD
- Just a few to be going on with!
| By Soultwine (195.93.49.161 - 195.93.49.161) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 05:12 pm: |
Hi Ritchie
Those sounds WERE still popular in the south of England in the late 60's/early 70's (despite what you may read) but this part of the story has largely been ignored/overlooked.I used to go to clubs in the Ilford /northeast London area and i remember the floor ALWAYS being full when ,for example,Doris Troy's "I'll do anything" or Edwin Starr's "Headline news" were played in an oldies spot.And then, the floor cleared when eg. the Watts 103rd St. Rhythm Band "Express yourself" came on.
And this wasn't in a mainly white clientele club but all clubs that i went to.
Also, i don't think Dave Godin set out to start a "movement"-he just commented on a remarkable scene
that he loved.I'm sure that he was or would have been a fan of those sounds anyway and it was great to have him on our side when the knockers bigots & snobs tried to disparage it.
I don't think it was a bad thing that it happened this way-do you?.It just happened -warts and all.
Phil
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 05:28 pm: |
When did you all start to be aware of Prove yourself a lady and when did they first start to play it in the clubs ??
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 06:08 pm: |
ritchie's made a great start.
i also hated the term northern soul, but i don't think that came until the scene was first featured on television.
in line with the english phenemon of collecting things, i think the northern soul scene could come from that.
there is no doubt that there were other clubs featuring rare soul prior to or in tandem with the twisted wheel - records you couldn't hear on the radio may be a better description at that stage.
the wheel was undoubtedly the focal point in 1970. it truly was amazing entering that basement and being hit by a wall of sound.
if poly esther is referring to the earliest records played at that time, i would say one of these was 'the monkey time' by major lance (okeh)from 1963.
if he's refering to the first identifiable rare and in-demand record i would say 'baby reconsider' by leon haywood (fat fish). i say that in particular because of the fuss made over it.
this is about 12 months before respected soul journalist, dave godin, visited the club and christened the action as the northern soul scene.
i met and spoke to him that evening, many of my english friends at that time (like durex manufacturer mike curtis!) were photographed and appeared in blues and soul magazine. dave godin was overwhelmed by what he saw and heard.
it was a fallacy to say that white people couldn't dance. some in that club were unbelievable. but most importantly the music made everything so unbelievably addictive.
i heard most of ritchie's track listing in there.
(some of) my favourite wheel sounds were :-
back street-edwin starr (ric tic)
dr love-bobby sheen (capitol)
that's enough-roscoe robinson (wand)
discotheque-chubby checker (parkway)
boy from new york city-adlibs (blue cat)
everybody loves a good time-major lance (okeh)
darkest days-jackie lee (abc)
you get your kicks-mitch ryder (new voice)
quitter never wins-l.williams&johnny watson (okeh)
i'm the one to do it-jackie wilson (brunswick)
i'll always love you-detroit spinners (motown)
what's wrong with me baby-invitations (dynovoice)
chains of love-chuck jackson (wand)
6 by 6 earl van dyke and the soul brothers (soul)
and the unbelievable:-
a lil lovin sometimes-alexander patton (capitol)
due to the atmosphere in the place, another record that went down a storm was frankie valli's 'you're ready now' (smash). not for the purists but i will always remember the moment that record came on. if you heard that record at home there was no way you could get the same impact(nothing to do with amphetemine free zones either!).
prolific northern soul labels have been harthon from philadelphia (thanks weldon), ric tic from detroit, okeh from chicago, onederful(group of labels) from chicago, chess/cadet from chicago, capitol from los angeles, mirwood from los angeles, wand from new york city, rca from new york city (with a lot of detroit material), shrine from washington d.c., and of course our beloved motown group of labels from detroit.
don davis's 'groovesville music' from detroit played a major part too with releases on a number of detroit labels.
i recall thinking in the mid seventies that we were running out of new discoveries. twenty five years on, new stuff is still coming to light, albeit mainly thru acetates and master tapes.
but one thing's for sure, the greatest underground music scene of them all still has as much life in it as it did in 1970 - if not more!
| By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 06:22 pm: |
David
Thanks for posting what is near-as-dammit the rest of my list! You just saved me a bit of typing ;o)
I'd also like to add:
REFLECTIONS - COMIN' AT YOU
JACKIE WILSON - WHO WHO SONG (and)
NOTHING BUT BLUE SKIES
LAURA LEE - TO WIN YOUR HEART
Actually, the list could go one and on... (but what fun remembering it!!!)
| By John Lester from London (213.122.199.143 - 213.122.199.143) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 09:32 pm: |
Hey...what about a dear old southerner's point of view!!
Us down here in London were into the disco scene quite early...as a youngster I can recall trying to perform the Dagenham hop to the Beatles "I Should Have Known Better" from the Hard Days' Night LP. Then there was Be My Baby from the Ronettes...and then Motown just took over..Heatwave..used to get the whole place shaking...Dancing in The Street was played even after Martha's follow-ups....
Other records that I recall that enjoyed over the top playing were Velvelettes Needle In A Haystack, Really Saying Something, Tammi and Marvin's "Two Can Have A Party", the Supes "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart", Miracles "Going To A Go Go"....and as all this was going on, I began to be aware that some of the records that I had danced the night away to a few months back were now being mentioned in mags reviewing clubs in the north of engladn in Manchester and the like...and there were the 45 record lists that started to charge high prices for certain tracks that were termed "mock" or "pseudo" Motown. I remember being totally gobsmacked to see "Love Bug Leave My Heart Alone" listed as "One Way Out" with a huge price tag of £2 on it.....what followed was NEW Motown items...like Chris Clark's "Touch The Sky"...ie bootlegs. By this time, Adey Croasdale was selling records at Cheapo Cheapo and telling us all how the Northern lads were into esoteric Motown and Ric Tic/Golden World and then anything Detroit and Mike Terry was a god. Jim Wilson of Ebony Sounds used to have a box specially for the lads up north that would scream for them. It seemed like the quest to discover something new then took over from the music..so when the Detroit scene was well and truly sifted through, the dj's turned to the British covers....and when I discovered that Tony Blackburn had a Northern hit with "I'll do Anything". I decided it wasn't for me....I'm afraid.
A bit of a pity really, cos I met some really great Northern lads over the years..since the 70's..I always wondered whether they still go to these venue's...once in a while..
We are all being a bit nostalgic today!!! Must be a sign of old age..
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 09:47 pm: |
john
i still have a record list from jim wilson circa 1969! i think he lived in shoreditch?
whatever happened to him? he was a big name in those days.
| By John Lester (213.122.199.143 - 213.122.199.143) on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 09:59 pm: |
I see Jim from time to time at Camden Town record Market..he sells pop music....for a living....
He moved away from Shoreditch...I live about a stone's throw away from there....
You and Keith Rylatt are both as mad as each other then...he saves old record lists too!!!
(quietly I have to admit to keeping a few Soul Bowl and Black Grape lists!!)
| By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 01:01 am: |
John
Thanks for your insight. You hit the nail right on the head with your reference to the "Lenny Gamble" farce. That's why I class myself as a Classic Soul fan, and not really a "Northern" Soul fan.
To me, the music is Jackie Wilson, Motown, Detroit, US-recorded and steeped in Black pop-culture of the 60s... you know the score, and this is where Kev Roberts and I would part company:
I quote from the man himself: "What actually constitutes a Northern 45 is open to conjecture. My gut reaction is to focus on what has been played and popular at 'Northern Soul' allnighters rather than what is technically 'Soul' music."
My personal "gut reaction" is that Bobby Goldsboro, Roy Orbison, Helen Shapiro and Paul Anka may have recorded 45s which somehow became floor-fillers at the Casino, but to me they've no connection with what I would class as "Soul"
So, on that score, I'm in agreement with you. But, just be careful with that bathwater you're throwing out... there might actually be some very nice babies in it!
| By brianWJ (62.169.132.169 - 62.169.132.169) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
Sometimes it is forgotten that the Northern Scene was an oldies scene at least 5/6 years after the recording.
Therefore it was a parody of the original London and Manchester scenes which were Fashionable and contemporary. When it became popular in the smaller towns of the Midlands and the North west of England, The original hit sounds as already discussed were replaced by true Northern sounds which were broken at the clubs in the wake of the Wheels demise in 1970.
Therfore my answer to the original question of the first Northern Soul record would be all of the above plus
This old heart of Mine/ Isley Brothers ,
Just a little Misunderstanding/ Contours,
Theres Nothing else to say / Incredibles.
But the first real Northern Soul record from the new era could have been one of those later discoveries like Love Love Love but nothing tempted me back to Clubs until I do Love You Frank Wilson the greatest Motown Song of all time, and unissued.
PS This old heart of mine issued on TMG 555 was never deleted and sold over 500 copies a week untill it was reissued in 1969 and hit the UK charts
| By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
Hi Brian
Thanks for your contribution to the thread. I fully agree with your three additions, but I deliberately omitted any Motown gems as I thought they were too obvious to list! (And OK, I forgot the Incredibles - which is as fine pseudo-Motown as you could wish for.)
I'd also add the Impressions YOU'VE BEEN CHEATIN' and CAN'T SATISFY, and the Artistics' HOPE WE HAVE plus I'M GONNA MISS YOU (as a rare mid-tempo goodie.)
| By John Lester (213.1.134.59 - 213.1.134.59) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
But I thought "Can't Satisfy" WAS "This Old Heart Of Mine"
Ooops....LOLOLOL!
There were a few TMG's that simply refused to not sell....and that made me feel real good....Third Finger Left Hand (TMG 599), It Takes Two (TMG 590)...and Frank Wilson's TMG 1170 must have taken the whole of the UK by surprise except the folk that danced to that Eddie Foster bootleg on "IN".....
| By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 01:52 pm: |
Hi John
Considering all the superb originals Curtis Mayfield gave us over the years, I think we can allow him this one small piece of plagiarism! I don't recall any lawsuit over this...
Though, HDH did sue Tony Macauley once over a Foundations tune which was just that little bit too close to a certain Four Tops song. Maybe one was an Impressions "Motown pastiche" and the other just a plain, unashamed English rip-off...?
| By phillysoulman (205.188.192.186 - 205.188.192.186) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 02:03 pm: |
In 1980, I produced a cover of "Just a little misunderstanding", by Busta Jones on Spring Records. Busta who passed away a few years ago was an associate of the Talking Heads who also played the bass.He was the type who could have been with Living Colour.
As a matter of fact, in '77 when I met Busta, he brought some guy with him who crashed out on my sofa. He said thet his name was Jerry Harrison ' He was a founding member of the Talking Heads.
Me being a "soulboy" at heart though that association would ruin my street cred.
Little did I know that they would later be a trendsetting aggregation.
| By John Lester (213.1.134.59 - 213.1.134.59) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 02:08 pm: |
Bloody hell, Bobby..
YOU are all over my collection......Spring SP 3009...arranged and produced by Bobby Eli.
Bobby, I didn't notice..please forgive me....I did at least buy it!!
| By John Lester (213.1.134.59 - 213.1.134.59) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 02:31 pm: |
Ritchie....check out the writers of "Can't Satisfy" on more recent (and reputable) compliations and then ask me again whether there was any law suit!!
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 02:46 pm: |
OK John
I did say "I don't recall...." but it looks like once again I owe you a cup of Hot Chocolate....
You Win Again.
| By John Lester (213.1.134.59 - 213.1.134.59) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 02:59 pm: |
You can't keep a good man down can you.
LOLOLOLOLOL!
| By phillysoulman (205.188.199.53 - 205.188.199.53) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 05:42 pm: |
The backing vocals on Busta's record was Margo Thunder and her girls, and Larry "Woo" wedgeworth and his guys, with Maurice starr,
They were recorded in Boston at Intermedia which later was bought by The Cars.
The track was done at Sigma, New york and the Musicians were the guys from Pockets who I produced an album for that never was released, due confusion at Cavallo-Ruffalo, who were Ewf's managers, per se.
The group had a lot of internal froction, although I used their rhythm guys a lot in NYC, although they were from Baltimore. GO Figure!!!!
| By Ian W (213.122.169.128 - 213.122.169.128) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
I've still got a few lists from the 70s! It's tearful to see records now worth £100's that were on sale for £2.50 eg. Jock Mitchell. My first 'big' buy was a Hi demo of Bill Black's Little Queenie which cost me the astonishing sum of £5. Nowadays it must be worth - probably about the same! I seem to have the unenviable talent of not being able to spot a bargain. Dave Comer, a friend of Dave Moore (a Soulful Detroit contributor, the both of them knowledgable and serious collectors) recently showed me a copy of Melvin Davis 'I Must Love You' which he picked up for next to nothing in a local newsagents.
Ian
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 06:06 pm: |
i think there will be an astonishing number of finds in england eventually.
some families just would not know what to do with these records.
hence the newsagent find.
i am glad i lost the habit of buying 45's. there is bound to be a dip in the market eventually as we all gradually die off!
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 07:29 pm: |
welcome to the forum brianwj.
going back to my list, i also loved alvin cash and the crawlers/registers records. the wheel played at least 2, 'philly freeze', 'twine time' and now that i think of it 'doin' the ali shuffle'.
on motown labels, yes the velvelettes and of course frances nero. and what about 'first i look at the purse' by the contours? barbara randolph 'i got a feeling', 'all for you' earl van dyke, 'sweet thing' by the spinners, 'heaven must have sent you' the elgins, 'shotgun' jr walker, 'whole lot of shakin' miracles, 'little darlin' marvin gaye,'helpless' kim weston, the brenda holloway double sider, 'this old heart of mine' tammi terrell.
i even got the dj to play 'time is passin' by' from edwin's soul master album.
and what about all the jackie lee tracks from mirwood or donald height's 'talk of the grapevine'.
the wheel was a one-off. i went to other clubs as mentioned in my tour. but they failed to reach the same heady heights.
one advantage that the wheel had however was that it was all innocent fun...no snobs, politics, big money changing hands, egotistic dj's etc.
oh and it also had colossal atmosphere due to it's dundgeon like environment.
amen
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 07:49 pm: |
David
"Egotistic dj's" - too damn right. I guess every closed society is prone to the "cult of personality" syndrome, but it strikes me as almost surreal when djs are revered and hero-worshipped when so often the artists on the records are left to languish in obscurity.
| By phillysoulman (152.163.207.177 - 152.163.207.177) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 07:53 pm: |
David,
I am priveliged to say that I actually worked in the Twisted Wheel in Manchester several times between late 1967 and 1968 with the Vibrations when it was a live peformance venue of sorts, and I remember the dungeon like atmosphere very well. I was a kid then as well as now!!!
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 09:48 pm: |
bobby
i almost added a line to one of these posts that i wished our american friends could have seen the wheel. of course many played there. my first visit was down to edwin starr playing there (and of course hearing about the reputation).
you floored me saying you played there. and thanks for spelling dungeon correctly!
keith rylatt and phil scott's excellent history of the wheel lists at least 3 vibrations appearances.
the vibrations have always been a real cult goup for me. at the wheel 'gonna get along without you now' on okeh was very big. it was such a joyous record.
also 'love in them there hills'.
possibly just missing the wheel was 'surprise party for baby' by the vibrating vibrations on neptune. were you still around them then? 1970 i think.
i truly rate this as an awesome record. it is one i never ever tire of hearing, which is key to my appraisal of things. very few records hold that key for me. how do you rate that record?
do you recall a distinct soul music presence within the wheel?
did you experience that anywhere else on your tours?
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Saturday, March 09, 2002 - 11:25 pm: |
goldmine re-issuers reckon 'surprise' was 1968.
produced by gene dozier (i wondered why you responded so quickly to my last piece on him - billy jackson) and gamble/huff.
written by gd and k. lewis.
i just played it again. a fantastic lead vocal (do you know who?) and several changes in direction thru the song (again a layman's point of view).
the breaks add to the tension (if that's the right word) of the song which i believe sets danceable soul music apart from the rest.
a fabulous, fabulous record.
| By phillysoulman (205.188.197.179 - 205.188.197.179) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 02:56 am: |
David,
Re: The Vibrations. I played at the Wheel with them two of those times, and yes I could feel a soul presence in there more than some of the others. The lead singer was Carl Fisher and he and I wrote a lot of songs together, among them were Help the needy and Mr.Magic man, both by Wilson Pickett. I played on Love in them there hills, and Surprise party.....
Love in ...was recorded in NYC at Columbia studios, with Karl Chambers on drums, Norman Harris and myself on guitars, Ronnie Bakes on bass, Huff on piano and organ, Laerry Washington and Rogie Kenyatta on percussion.
Surprise.. had the usual Philly stallwarts playing.
I did gigs with them until 1972.
| By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 03:38 am: |
I agree, "Surprise Party" is a true classic!
Bobby, do you happen to know who played on "What Kind Of Lady" by Dee Dee Sharp (on Gamble)?
And also, do you know if Sonji Clay (Muhammad Ali's ex-wife) recorded in Philly?
Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com
| By John Lester (213.122.202.6 - 213.122.202.6) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 07:57 am: |
Bobby.......how can you remember such detail!
Amazing!
| By phillysoulman (152.163.197.56 - 152.163.197.56) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 12:09 pm: |
Jeff, I believe that that Dee Dee sharp song had the usual rhythm section on it.
John, as far as detail goes, I had such wonderful and creative times throughout the years that I
willnever forget and for some reason I have always posessed that "quirk" of being referred to by some as Mr. Detail. Some have said, in fact"why don't you just get to the point and stop rambling on so much"!! Can you believe that???
Ijust hope that my recollections stay with me for the rest of my life and I will just have to keep on rambling, and I hope that I have some new things to ramble about.
Eli(Mr Detail)
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 12:17 pm: |
Mr Detail
I propose you as an honorary member of the National Ramblers Association. We'll eagerly follow you on each and every one of your "rambles" down your personal Memory Lane. It's great - no hiking boots, no mud - and we don't even have to leave the house.
Bobby - ramble on!
| By phillysoulman (152.163.197.56 - 152.163.197.56) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
Ritchie,
Where can I pick up my membership card??????
Can't let the "union man" catch me without one!
There may be spys hiding out in the shrubs!!!!
| By Ian W (213.122.132.18 - 213.122.132.18) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 02:49 pm: |
Bobby
I've just finished listening to the Salsoul Orchestra slbum 'Nice'n'Nasty'. Wow!
Your credits refer to you here as Bobby "electronic" Eli. Dare we ask?
Ian
ps. What a ravishing and delightful girl on the cover (vicar)! Please send me her tee shirt!
| By phillysoulman (205.188.192.47 - 205.188.192.47) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 09:09 pm: |
I started using the "Electronic" moniker probably in 1976 because of my proliferation of effects that I was using. When a new gizmo came out, I would get it.Remember, that it was ALL analog at the time, and sometimes noisy!!
The girl on the cover was a model that they found (I forgot her name) and we met her on occasion at some of the live gigs, such as Roseland in NYC, which is the pic you sometimes see with the whole band on stage.
| By Ian W (213.122.128.227 - 213.122.128.227) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 09:38 pm: |
Bobby, Dennis and the Babbitt
Have you guitarists tried the guitar-to-MIDI stuff yet? I've seen Roland ads in the music mags about these controllers. I play a bit of keyboards (I have an 88 note controller keyboard hooked up to the PC and a decent sound card) but I can't seem to mimic a real guitar sound though. I wondered how easy the process went the other way!
Ian
| By phillysoulman (205.188.192.47 - 205.188.192.47) on Sunday, March 10, 2002 - 10:07 pm: |
In my humble opinion, they haven't quite nailed the tracking situation yet. It is player dependent and can vary greatly according it's user.The whole idea is that you are trying to trigger the other instruments in your arsenal.
You are probably refering to the guitar simulators, and the like. Once again it is player dependent and style dependent.
And one should have a decent knowledge of sound design to boot!!!!!
| By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 09:24 am: |
Well, for what it's worth, here are a few of the soul records I first heard in 1973 clubbing it in Hull, England, before I had ever heard of the term 'Northern Soul':
Love love love - Bobby Hebb
Ooh! Pretty Lady - Al Kent
I'll do anything - Doris Troy
Gotta Have your love - The Sapphires
Stay Close to me - Five Stairsteps & Cubie
This old heart of mine - Donnie Elbert
I can't help myself - Donnie Elbert
Where did our love go - Donnie Elbert
Ain't nothin' but a houseparty - Showstoppers
Girls are out to get you - The Fascinations
My man a sweet man - Millie Jackson ( it bit late!)
I spy (for the FBI) - Jamo Thomas and his PBO
SOS - Edwin Starr
Rescue me - Fontella Bass
At the top of the stairs - The Formations
A man like me - Jimmy James & the Vagabonds
Stop what you're doing - The Playthings (It did fill the dance floor!)
If it feels good - Della Reese
Bobby Eli - you mention Buster Jones. I have a couple of 'Sure Shot' singles of his. No no Baby, being one of them. Also do you remember 'Chinese King Fu' by Banzaii - 1975. Recorded at Sigma?
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 12:02 pm: |
Hey Carl,
No clue on the last two although the "Chinese one
may be something Len Barry was involved with as he had a fascination with Chinese and Indian stuff.
Two come to mind. "Egg Foo Wawa" by "The Race Street Chinatown band on Marmaduke, I was the "wa wa" and of course, the Electric Indian stuff.
Vince Montana even did some disco numbers with quasi Jewish type themes!!!!!
They were on his Philly Soundworks label and I pplayed on them also, I suppose for "authenticity"
| By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 03:16 am: |
Vince Montana produced a great instrumental called "Penguin Talk" by the French Connection, around 1975 or so. Bobby, is that you on there?
Anyone heard Len Barry's VOCAL version of "Keem-O-Sabe"? I like it! I used to play it when I hosted the "Soul Coal Factory"!
Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com
| By phillysoulman (205.188.198.184 - 205.188.198.184) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 03:30 am: |
It would have to be, but as detailed as I am, that one requires some serious mind searching for the specifics. The Penguin was a dance fad circa '73-74. By'75 it had all but "waddled out"
Vince should have put it out in '73!!!
The Keem- o- therapy...er...sabe is cute.
He is no Indian giver though!!
| By Ian W (213.122.53.142 - 213.122.53.142) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 07:16 am: |
Bobby
On the 'Keem-O-Sabe' recording, did you utilise your 'electronic totem'?
Ian
| By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 09:54 am: |
Is that the same fad for; The Penguin Breakdown by L J Reynolds and the Chocolate Syrup? (That is from memory!) It was on Avco. Arranged by Bobby Martin I think.
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 01:17 pm: |
Yes, and L.J. was amember of the Dramatics as well!! I also did some demos with him in 1989.
By the way, the penguin was a stupid dance!!!!
Picture a bunch of people on the floor waddling and skiping side to side!!!
There is a scaled down version of that dance step in the latest Mary J. Blige video of "Family Affair"
| By John Lester (213.122.190.162 - 213.122.190.162) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 01:58 pm: |
Bobby......how does your mind hold on to all these facts.
I reckon they used you as a blueprint for designing computer storage media!!!
You continue to amaze me!!
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 02:06 pm: |
I have the latest 1000 gigabyte chip installed in my cerebellum. Its the latest , it's the greatest!!!! Also it doesn't hurt that I was an elephant in a former lifetime and have retained all the stereotypical elephant "thingies"
Really, I haven't got a clue. Maybe it's a birth defect!! I am not complaining though>
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:10 pm: |
Bobby
If your amazing memory is a genetic inheritance, you could market your DNA and clean up!
| By phillysoulman (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 07:09 pm: |
Thank you, just pray that I do not get Altzheimers!!!
| By Dennis Coffey (206.47.172.178 - 206.47.172.178) on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 01:21 am: |
Hey Ian. I used a Roland type guitar hooked up to a synth on my Under the Moonlight CD about 12 years ago. It was ok for string pads and sounds but it had to much of a time delay for solos and melody.
Dennis
| By Ian W (213.123.47.180 - 213.123.47.180) on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 10:40 pm: |
Thanks Bobby & Dennis!
I guess MIDI still has to develop a bit for you guys. I haven't heard 'Under The Moonlight' yet - another thing for me to find! You definitely can't get a decent realistic guitar sound out of a MIDI keyboard even with bending the notes - except for, perhaps, the backbeat 'chung' you often hear on 60's Detroit tracks (I'm sure there's a real word for 'chung')!
Ian
| By phillysoulman (205.188.199.174 - 205.188.199.174) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:19 am: |
Hello Ian ,With certain nylon string and 12 string guitar sounds, depending on the keybard or module, it is possible to get some amazing parts if the person playing the parts is a guitarist, therefore knowing the propper nuances associated with the guitar, i.e. dynamics and articulation.
This is especially possible on obligato and arpeggio passages. The Proteus 2000 made by EMU has some graet guitar sounds and is worth checking out. Just ask our friend Carl.
Once again, the touch is all too important.
Rhythm parts as such , may not be as easy to mimic because it is dependant on the feel of the keyboardist relative to the instrument he is playing. There are some good Fender type samples available that you can "chop up" and it could very well do the job.
| By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 09:34 am: |
Yes I agree Bobby - Excellent sounds in the Proteus. Within my sequencing package, Logic Audio, there is a facility called 'Dynamics', which when activated takes away that sterile midi groove which kills the music. On vibes for example, it makes it a little more human. At my level, this helps me at least 'feel' the music better, because I cannot play such an instrument and use my ears to listen to say Jack Ashford or Vince Montana and mimic the best I can with the technology. However, there are problems with the bagpipes!! I am yet to hear an authentic midi pipe to date. This is a grey area for most as very specialist, unless you know your 'Donna's right hand' or 'The Eider Duck Bounce' of course. Sometimes an accordion can be tweaked as a substitute. Maybe Angus can comment on this one!
| By Angus (64.12.104.26 - 64.12.104.26) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 12:41 pm: |
Carl,
Angus here. I just noticed that you had a comment regarding bagpipes and their translation into the "midi" world. Insofar as that I have a limited knowledge of midi application regarding this fine musical instrument, I do know the it does not translate that well due to the overtones associated with the instrument.
Because of the reverance that we have for the instrument, we feel that it should be left alone and left entirely to professionals such as myself, and if one is needed I will be happy to arrange this for you.
Angus MacDowell
| By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 12:50 pm: |
Thank you Angus
I know I would like to compose a tune with bagpipes and never have because of what you say. Maybe one day I will. If needed, can I rely on you to fulfil my requirements on this? I could send you an MP3 file of the melody and you could maybe record it for me and burn it onto CD!! I would have to insist that you stand by Loch Fyne or somewhere appropriate for the correct sound and 'air' passing through the bladder, if that is what it is called!
| By Angus (64.12.104.26 - 64.12.104.26) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:11 pm: |
Carl,
This is not to be taken lightly or in jest, as I revere my instrument and it has played a big part in my life.
I will though, be happy to oblige by recording for you in the manner which you have mentioned. My son will be able to assist me as I am not a technical person.
Angus
| By Carl Dixon (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:18 pm: |
Thank you again Angus. I know Mr McCartney used the instrument on an xmas number one many years ago. I already have an Xmas song, but sadly I cannot utilise the instrument. Maybe I could, in the bridge - that has got me thinking!! Do you remember 'Forget me Not' By Martha & the Vandellas?? Were they bagpipes in there??
| By John Lester (213.122.195.192 - 213.122.195.192) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:30 pm: |
Martha says that little bit in the middle is the Irish gig..
Is it? If it is, then I would have thought it woul dnot have been the bag pipes...
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:33 pm: |
Er... not that I'm an expert on matters Celtic, but don't the Irish play the bagpipes too?
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:35 pm: |
John
Oh, sorry - I misread your post. You actually said "Irish gig". I guess that was Martha's little-known session in Belfast?
| By Carl Dixon London (62.31.40.173 - 62.31.40.173) on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 02:37 pm: |
I think they do Ritchie! Angus??
| By Dave Rimmer (213.122.200.101 - 213.122.200.101) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 10:01 pm: |
Taking this back to the original thread, I'd have to point out that Dave Godin who is credited with using the term Northern Soul first, didn't actually use it as a term in the Blues & Soul articles he wrote about the Twisted Wheel in 1970/71. Those two articles were actually called 'Soul Of The North'. Dave does though have an explaination about where the term came about.
When he was running the Soul City record shop they realised that the customers from 'Northern England' were buying a certain type of record, the mid Sixties 'on the fours' tempo type of thing as opposed to what the 'Southern England' customers were buying, which was current releases. To categorise these records, Dave, and the staff in the shop started referring to them as 'Northern' soul records. Hence the name.
Personally, I would dispute the claim that The Twisted Wheel (To use the most well known example of a late Sixties/early Seventies club) was a Northern Soul venue. Certainly it has a claim as one of the first venues to play Soul and R & B all night, but the playlist was too varied for it claim to be a 'Northern Soul Club'.
I would have to say that the Golden Torch Ballroom in Stoke On Trent was the first 'Northern Soul Club' in that the playlist featured almost exclusively uptempo Sixties Soul music played, in the main, on imported original vinyl.
Before I start receiving bricks through the window address 'Return to Brazenose St, Manchester', I'm not decrying the place of the Wheel in the development of 'Northern Soul'. It was there at the beginning, but played so many other things (After all, Roger Eagle left the club because of the way the playlist narrowed towards the end)that it can't claim to be a 'Northern Soul Club'.
Northern Soul, in itself a terrible term, was a Seventies sensation. By the Eighties the name for the scene had changed to the 'Rare Soul scene' amongst those who mattered. That's the term that is still used today by those who are still trying to find new Sixties things to play. 'Northern Soul became rather passe as a term, and has to a certain degree remained that way.
I realise I'm taking my reputation as a pedantic so and so to the extreme limits here, but I do feel quite strongly that the Rare Soul scene deserves better than being dragged back to the Seventies by big money promoters who are pushing the 'Northern Soul is the next big thing' tag.
As far as the first Northern Soul records (See I knew I'd get there eventually), I'd nominate these three as ones which immediately fit the tag Northern Soul, were around in the very early days, and are still as fresh and exciting today as they were thirty years ago:
The Fuller Brothers - Time's A Wasting
Jackie Lee - Shotgun And The Duck
Jimmy Robbins - I Can't Please You
Phew, You can go now class :-)
Dave Rimmer
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, March 15, 2002 - 10:13 pm: |
Dave
Extremely well said. I couldn't agree more.
By the way, if you need any support with those bricks, I'll be there to help you fend them off!
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.81.2 - 213.122.81.2) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:10 am: |
there are approx 50 records listed above as having been played at the twisted wheel club.
i need dave to tell me which of these records are not recognised as being part of northern soul folklore.
they were all played in the last 12 months of the clubs existence. they are only part of the overall playlist. why roger eagle felt the need to diss things i'll never know. whitworth street was the most incredible venue and i have never been in another club which could touch it in terms of atmosphere.
the freelance dancing style at the wheel is also the one which prevails today.
i also need to remind him that many of those who attended the wheel moved onto the catacombs, up the junction, torch and blackpool mecca. ie they took the scene with them. i was one of them.
i can remember imports being traded from suitcases in the twisted wheel. i can remember new releases such as chairmen of the board being played there. i recall 'shotgun and the duck' being played there too.
it's many years since i read dave godin's article
but he knew what he saw and what he liked and i'm sure would confirm that it all came out of there. also, how many times has the term 'northern soul' been described to our american friends as 'soul of the north' or 'soul music played in the north of england'.
this is also the first time that i've read that the northern soul scene was founded through the playing of nothing but imported 45's!!
it would be a dreadful misrepresentation of the facts, to suggest that the twisted wheel club was not part of the northern soul scene.
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.40.174 - 213.122.40.174) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:58 am: |
p.s. dave had a much clearer view of things when he created his excellent website!
http://members.tripod.com/SoulfulKindaMusic/history.htm
| By david, glasgow, scotland (213.107.27.25 - 213.107.27.25) on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 11:49 pm: |
i glanced thru the rylatt/scott book tonight and it shows that roger eagle left the twisted wheel in december 1965. a full five years before it's closure.
| By FrankJ (212.159.70.184 - 212.159.70.184) on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 05:48 am: |
Dave, I have to say that having attended from about '67 onwards on and off you could actually see the music policy of the Wheel change its structure over the time period, and by the time of its demise was solidly what became understood as on the fours "Northern Soul". By the end I was almost continually on the scene and really did not notice any earth shattering changes by post Wheel clubs other than a general establishment of their own identities defined by their playlists much the same as today. Truly places like the Torch were well into US label rarities but so was the Wheel by the close. Well do I remenber seeing a copy of "Darkest Days" for the first time and thinking, "Jackie Lee on ABC?? Blimey that must be rare" Old news now of course but in its time a genuine US rarity that had us all drooling as Jackie was then revered as an obscure soulman of mystique. Everything is of its time of course and by the criteria you seem to be judging the Wheel you would have to say that none of todays venues could pass as an exclusively "Northern Soul" club. As defined by the uptempo on the fours criteria it probably lasted less than ten years in any case and as a descriptive term has long since outlived its use. The wheel was truly the birth of the Northern scene although by no means my favourite venue. I do think the scene improved dramatically afterwards and as a soul collector think it shows continuous wisdom in music policy over the years, changing by degrees to keep itself interesting. Long may it continue.
Anecdote that I don't personally remember but a mate swears it is true is of I think Dave Godin taking a copy of "Prove Yourself A Lady" to the wheel and it failed to go down. A couple of years later I would be clutching a copy and memorising its Eli,Prussan,Matico,Gripman credit on the train home from Stoke. Thirty years on one of these mystical figures is on this very website and I still have a sense of wonder.
| By The Swami (152.163.195.197 - 152.163.195.197) on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:14 am: |
Me, a mystical figure???
Go figure!! Who woulda thunk it??
It was all in a days(rather nights in this case)
work. Just today I was researching the American social security records to find out if Mr. Bounty ( Bunting actually) is still among the living.
In 1986 Ian Levine heard that I was in Lillie Yard studios in Fulham, and proceeded to yell up the stairs "Bobby Eli,where are you?? I must meet you now!! You have a smash!!
I thought,"who the f**k is that bloke with that voice calling out my name"??
He asked if I was in fact THE Bobby Eli of prove yourself a lady fame, and I almost fell on the floor. I though " what f***g smash, that was recorded in 1967 and here it is 1986. Talking about a long time to break a record!!
Anyway, he then proceded to explain the Northern scene to me and I then understood the attraction to that song, especially at the Torch.
Go figure. I guess it's time to remove my cloak and my white turban with the red ruby!!!