By Poly Esther (205.188.192.154 - 205.188.192.154) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 05:46 pm:

I have read in certain articles whereby west coast bass player Carol Kaye has claimed the she, in fact played on many records that we all have known to be Jamerson. Is this woman out of her gourd?? She seems to be adamant that she played on Bernadette!!!! , Aint nothin like the real thing!!!!! and the list goes on.
Does woman actually believe her own hype?Her web site has her saying that a lot of the stuff was
actually recorded in L.A.!!
What a load of crap!!! I try to play bass and have studied the techniques of Jamerson and Bob Babbitt and to me, they are two of the greatest bassists of all time, bar none! Carol may have played on countless L.A. sessions with the Beach Boys, and many "whitebread " songs, and movie/tv projects but she cannot compare to my idols.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

i asked carol for permission to announce this website on her forum.

she replied 'i don't think this is an appropriate time'.

she vets all postings before allowing them on to her board.

tells you a lot doesn't it!

By Poly Esther (205.188.192.154 - 205.188.192.154) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 06:20 pm:

Mr. Babbitt, do yo have any comments?

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 07:44 pm:

Check out the forum at bassland.net:

http://www.bassland.net/discussion_frm.htm

- for an excellent discussion on the Jamerson-Kaye question. In particular, take a read at the post entitled:
"Bernadette, Reach Out...., I Was Made To Love Her" - dated Jan 24th 2000

I think that settles some of the questions quite neatly!

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 08:28 pm:

I just don't understand what Carol Kaye's stance
at all. She has more than enough personal
accomplishments to justify her standing as one
of the best sesion bassists ever - why try to
claim that James Jamerson's work was hers ?

I doubt she'll ever publicly retract her statements - she's dug a hole for herself and
I doubt she can see any way out that won't
blow her credibility. What a shame.

By John Lester (213.1.131.185 - 213.1.131.185) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 08:32 pm:

Lamont Dozier talks about recording The Happening on the West Coast.........he said the guys didn't have the rhythm and he had to stop the session and it was started again but this time at Hitsville USA.

This Carole versus James has been going on for years.......in one respect I am glad it is about, cos it makes us all get up and tell the world who we think it really was....!

Dr Licks gets really uptight about it and that is why that film has been made...to give credit where it is due.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 08:36 pm:

alan slutsky (dr licks) has done an incredible job.

i love his book.

By BOB BABBITT (64.12.106.27 - 64.12.106.27) on Friday, February 08, 2002 - 11:39 pm:

JAMERSON ...............CAROL KAYE

I HAD THE PRESSURE errra PLEASURE OF MEETING CAROL KAYE AND SPENDING SEVERAL HOURS WITH HER ( WE WILL GO INTO THAT AT A LATER TIME)
SHE CLAIMS THAT SHE PLAYED ON SOME OF THE MOTOWN RECORDS THAT JAMERSON
PLAYED ON.......( SHE IS A GREAT BASS PLAYER WHO PLAYED ON NUMEROUS PROJECTS)
I DID NOT START WORKING AT MOTOWN UNTIL 1967.......BUT, PLAYING IN DETROIT AT THE TIME THESE RECORDS WERE RECORDED AND PLAYING WITH THE OTHER FUNK BROTHERS FOR OTHER RECORD COMPANIES I WOULD HEAR THEM TALKING ABOUT THE RECORDS.......AND I ALSO HUNG OUT WITH JAMERSON A LOT AND WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THOSE RECORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST BY LISTENING TO THOSE RECORDS I KNOW JAMERSON�S STYLE AND HIS SOUND (CAROL PLAYED WITH A PICK) IF ANY ONE ASKED ME WHO PLAYED ON THOSE RECORDS I WOULD STAND BY JAMERSON ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!
NOW MAYBE CAROL DID DO SOME RECORDING FOR MOTOWN IN L. A. ????????????????
BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS.....................IF IN FACT SHE DID PLAY ON THOSE MOTOWN RECORDS SHE CLAIMS THAT SHE DID........WHY DIDN�T BARRY GORDY USE HER ON THE JACKSON 5 RECORDS OR ANY OTHER ARTIST MOTOWN RECORDED IN L.A. ???????????

LATER MO-FU�S
BOB BABBITT

By BOB BABBITT (205.188.198.58 - 205.188.198.58) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 09:23 pm:

HEY MO-FU�S

IT�S BEEN ABOUT 10 DAYS NOW SINCE BOBBY ELI MADE ME AWARE OF THE FORUM ON THE S0ULFULDETROIT SITE!! ALL THE NAMES FROM THAT ERA THAT HAVE BEEN POSTED AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THEM AS WELL AS YOU INCREDIBLE FANS THAT ARE STILL INTO THE MUSIC TO THIS DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU HAVE BEEN READING ANY OF MY MESSAGES I GUESS BY NOW YOU REALIZE I AM NOT THE TYPE TO HOLD ANYTHING BACK.........THAT�S JUST ME AND I CAN BE INTENSE AND VERY AGGRESSIVE ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS OR PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! IF BY SOME CHANCE I HAVE SAID SOMETHING OR I DO IN THE FUTURE SAY SOMETHING TO OFFENDED ANYONE I AM APOLOGIZING RIGHT NOW.......THAT SAID AND DONE..... ONWARD!!!!!!!!!!!
THE FIRST THING I WANT TO CLEAR UP IS MO-FU�S..............I BET YOU THINK THAT WHAT IT STANDS FOR IS....MOTHER F-----�S... RIGHT??? WRONG!!!!!! WHAT IT STANDS FOR IS......

MOTOWN FUNK�S
OR IF YOU ARE A FAN.......MOTOWN FUNK FAN�S

REAL PEOPLE
THAT LISTEN AND TALK ABOUT.........REAL MUSIC
THAT�S PLAYED BY.................................REAL PEOPLE

GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU
BOB BABBITT

I WILL POST THIS ALSO ON JAMERSON VS CAROL KAYE............. ....................POLY ESTHER HAS ASKED ME A QUESTION THAT WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO ANSWER SO LOOK FOR A MESSAGE TITLED �WHO�S PLAYING BASS�....ALSO I WILL TRY TO ANSWER ALL OF THE MESSAGES THAT I GET BUT IT MAY TAKE SOME TIME

By cl (204.38.7.57 - 204.38.7.57) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 12:09 am:

I mentioned this very same topic very early on in the infancy of this forum. It is sad because Jamerson did not live to see the advent of websites and specialty magazines that might have given him the publicity he deserves. I can only say shame on Carol Kaye and also Bernard Purdie who claims to have played on motown and beatles records!! I guess if you have some adoring sycophant interviewing you it becomes enticing to embellish your credits.

In fact here in the states ther has recently been some college football coaches that have been exposed for embellishing which is a nice way of calling one a liar!!

One drummer that has played on tons of stuff but does not make false claims is Hal Blaine; so hats off to Hal

Lastly I do take issue with the characterization of the Beach Boys as being " white bread" ; soulfulness has many forms and expressions. Does anyone here not believe that Brian Wilson was/is one of the most soulful and expressive people in the history of pop music?

By John Lester (213.1.132.120 - 213.1.132.120) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 07:15 am:

Now hang on there about Hal Blaine...I have an article that says Hal played the drums on Baby Love for the Supremes........now if he played drums on that one, I shall eat my hat!!!

I rate Brian Wilson very highly too.

I have been away for ONE evening and I missed loads..I gotta catch up.

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.45.85 - 213.122.45.85) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:11 am:

i saw a documentary on brian wilson several years ago and found it fascinating. i think hollywood was one of the most interesting places outside of detroit. gold star studios et al.

some of his music is marvellous and leaves the beatles way behind i think.

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 03:19 pm:

It would take years before I would fully appreciate how good some of The Beach Boys stuff was. I think Good Vibrations really started to change my opinion of the group.I have since become acquainted with Al Jardine from the group. He has expressed in interest in what we are doing at Powerhouse and has tried to set up a deal with MCA. We have never really been able to come to any real agreement on anything to date, so things are in limbo at this point. Al did express an interest in coming into the studio to sing back-up sometime. Life can be funny at times.

By cl (204.38.7.42 - 204.38.7.42) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 05:14 pm:

Ok. Mr. Lester but did Hal Blaine make the claim??I suppose what makes the contention that the funk bros played on much if not all of what is in dispute is that there are people who were actually there and heard and saw it!!

I have no doubt that all those session players in LA and NYC and other places played on many recordings. I would even toss in the lot of jazz players (ray Brown, Frankie Capp, et, al) that played on some recordings; the " show biz" scene was drying up with the advent of self contained bands so they needed to make money too.

By John Lester (213.1.129.43 - 213.1.129.43) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 09:57 pm:

Cl

I am afraid it was Hal Blaine that made the claim..or otherwise the journalist made it read like Hal Blaine had made the claim.

In all honesty I do not know the truth, maybe Hal was on Baby Love.....however, I make a personal judgement that he didn't and I respect that someone may have a different view.

FYI, Richard Allen (apparently) paid drums on the previous Supremes' release "Where Did Our Love Go" when it was recorded on 8 April 1964....it also featured (get this for a link) Jack Ashford, Mike Terry, Earl Van Dyke, Robert White, Eddie Willis and James Jamerson

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:02 pm:

I'm going to ask Russ if he knew any Carol Kaye in L.A. He did a ton of ryythm dates out there. I know he discovered some black dude that HE liked to use.
He never once mentioned to me the existence of some female bass player.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:12 pm:

Hi all

I've kept fairly quiet on this question as I don't have much to add, but.. I plainly remember a small number of Motown fans in the early seventies who swore blind that the Motown bass player was a woman. My only point is that this particular "urban legend" has been around for a very long time. Its origin was almost certainly a garbled piece of misunderstood hearsay, eagerly passed on as a "little-known fact".

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:19 pm:

Now it will start a rumor that Jamerson was a cross dresser.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:22 pm:

Takes one to know one ;o)

By Russ (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:25 pm:

Since I was an engineer in Detroit and Chief Engineer in LA, I really don't remember Carol Kaye, or other female bass players on sessions in Detroit or LA! Since I was mixing most of the time, I did't do alot of the studio dates, so at this point I really can's say.

By John Lester (213.122.202.243 - 213.122.202.243) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 11:06 pm:

Ritchie ...

I recall Madeline Bell and her crowd spreading that rumour about a "housewife" who played bass on some of those Motown sessions. I still haven't forgiven her for spreading such wrong information although I have to say that I think she only meant it with a good heart and didn't know as much as we all know now.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 12:10 am:

John

I guess we all try to spread the word, even if accidentally it's the wrong word we're spreading.

At least Maddie didn't claim SHE played bass on them.. (now that would have started even more crazy rumours!)

By Poly Esther (205.188.199.32 - 205.188.199.32) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 01:58 am:

I in fact, am really the cross dresser!!
Let it be written, let it be said.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 05:17 pm:

From what I gather, Carol Kaye was a first-call session guitar player who was the very first to play a Fender bass on sessions in LA. I suspect that her influence is what prompted Motown to have James switch to playing a Fender bass on sessions. Instead of playing with a pick, he held the instrument like an upright bass and played it exactly like an upright bass.

I can't recommend the Beach Boys Pet Sounds sessions box highly enough. It includes both the backing tracks by themselves and just the vocals. It reduced me to tears to hear what a hit backing track like the ones we recorded at Motown sounds like once again. It also demonstrates Brian Wilson's talent as a producer recording large live rhythm sessions exactly the way we did in Detroit.

Kaye is credited with electric bass on everything. She is always doubling another bass player who is playing acoustic. This combination created a distinctive bass sound that you'll recognize from dozens of big hits out of LA in the 1960s.

Motown engineer Cal Harris interned with Chuck Britz, the Beach Boys' engineer, and handled many vocal sessions for them when they couldn't get time with Chuck. Cal engineered the backing track for "Good Vibrations" at Gold Star and Motown hired him from Gold Star.

Cal is very modest and I don't think most of us knew about his background beyond having worked as an engineer in L.A. The "Good Vibrations" credit put my jaw on the floor and Cal told me about interning when I called him up to ask about it. Cal mixed Marvin Gaye's version of Grapevine and became the head of Motown Detroit's engineering department after Brian Holland and Lawrence Horn left. Cal helped Larry Miles, Art Stewart and myself learn to become all-around recording engineers and have careers in the industry.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 08:09 pm:

Hi Bob,

The info. about Cal Harris working on "Good Vibrations" was very interesting. A brilliant record - 66/ 67 is my favourite Beach Boys period.
What amazes me about Brian Wilson is how he managed to overcome his hearing difficulties to
produce "Pet Sounds".

By John Lester (213.122.200.43 - 213.122.200.43) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 09:38 pm:

Bob...one of my rare detours in life...I have the Pet sounds box set.

I suggested a similar box set on Motown.....it ended up being "What's Going On" and then "Let's Get It On". It needed to be an album with a history.

My suggestion was "Reach Out" from the Four Tops...that album has 7 songs which were issued as the top sides of singles in the UK...also Cherish was nearly a 45 in the UK....

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 11:22 pm:

Brian only had (has?) a hearing disability in one ear. That wouldn't affect his musical ability at all. The main thing I learned from the box is that his musical expertise was right up there with the best while press accounts described him as very talented but not very knowledgeable or sophisticated. This box is evidence that this was pure bull.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 12:23 am:

It was Brian's hearing problem that caused him to mix everything in mono, at a time when Capitol were pushing stereo albums. As a result, many of the Beach Boys' sixties albums were issued in fake stereo. When Pet Sounds was released in England, there were mono and stereo versions available.

The "stereo" issue actually used Captol's "duophonic" process - splitting the mono signal with delay between the left and right channel. The mono version simply combined the left and right channels of the "duophonic" master.

It wasn't until years later that the original mono master was finally released.

By The MAA (205.188.200.173 - 205.188.200.173) on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 02:03 pm:

Hello Forum Members,

I normally wouldn't comment on any of the issues in the forums, but, this one is exceptional. I'm Billy Wilson President of the Motown Alumni Association. The issue of Carol Kaye has popped up for a number of years now, and we have been in the middle of court cases, and the controvery involving Ms.Kaye. The Motown crew of musician were like a family. Most of them know each other, or at least of each other. We found out that most of the publicity involved around Kaye was generated by ... KAYE! Kaye has written, coaxed, prevoked, and brow beat that rumor into all of those that are foolish enough to believe her. If you take a look at her career, you'd probably say to yourself .. . "Why would someone with her extensive track record lie?" Not to take anything away from her extensive,and wonderful career; but we know that Kaye didn't played on any of the Motown hits that she has mentioned. She tried to sue Dr. Licks, and Bob Lee over comments WE made, indicating that she was lying about the supposed Motown hits she played on. The case was dropped by Kaye beause of lack of evidence on her part. We've consulted with all of the producers (who would have hired Ms. Kaye) and they all said "Carol who?" Or they'd say "Oh boy, not her ain!". Carol did play on a few lesser know recordings at Motown . . . and I do mean LESSER KNOWN! The Motown Alumni Associaton provides information and gives assistance to entities such as the Library Of Congress, the Smithsonian Institute, Motown/Universal Music Group,Rythum & Blues Foundation, Motown artists and producers all over the world. We recognize Ms. Kaye as a musician that has played for Motown Record Company, but we don't recognize her as the person that recorded any of the hit Motown songs that she's metioned. As a matter of fact (FYI), for a period of time (about the time Kaye claims to have started with Motown) Babbitt and Jamerson were the only bass players used at Motown on the sessions (between 1968 - 1970)! From 1964 to 1968 the company only used Jamerson.

By BassLand (64.165.226.30 - 64.165.226.30) on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 03:11 pm:

Hi Soulful Detroit,

I am pleased to see this forum which like my own deals with the claims of Ms. Kayes in a positive manner. I am Bob Lee (AKA BassLand) I have provided a link to it from my James Jamerson page ( http://bassland.net/jamerson.html ) and will post it on my discussion group ( http://bassland.net/discussion_frm.htm ) also. Yes Ms Kaye tried unsuccesfully to sue me and Dr. Licks. I also want to thank Billy Wilson for his help and guidance over the years. I am a bassist and I cut my eye teeth on James Jamerson (and later Bob Babbitt) starting as a bassist in 1963. Thank you collectively for making my day!

BassLand (Bob Lee)

http://bassland.net

"everybody else can't be wrong"

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 03:21 pm:

Like Hank Cosby, I wore more than one hat at Motown. Besides producing, I was managing the studios. Naturally I would stop in on all the recording sessions to see how things were going and if there were any problems that needed addressing. The only bass players I ever saw were Jamerson and Babbitt.Period!!!

By RP50 (64.91.171.83 - 64.91.171.83) on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 05:58 pm:

I've not read all the posts concerning Bernard Purdie's claims of playing on Beatle records (I read an interview with him where he said that he played on the first 21 Beatle tracks - what a joke.) But for accuracies sake, he did play on one Beatle track. If you listen closely to "My Bonnie" you'll hear the fills that he overdubbed during a sweetening session in New York that he did for the US label that owned the rights to that cut over here(MGM, I think - I may be wrong). The label thought that he could make the single more palatable for us Yanks - another joke. Purdie also claims to have played on Aretha's "Respect" which is a slap in the face to the real drummer on that track Muscle Shoals great Roger Hawkins.

By Gary R (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 08:38 pm:

Wow! So much to respond to in this thread. Of course Mr. Slutsky has done a wonderful job of disproving Ms. Kaye's claims and I will only try to add some observations of my own.

Someone said that these claims have been going around since the '70s - I know that's true because I'm a bass player who started on the instrument at that time. Kaye had a series of instruction books where she made these claims. At the time I naively believed her, but I still have those books and it is interesting to look at them now. In the first place, she didn't claim nearly as many songs as she is now (although she was already claiming credit for "I Was Made To Love Her"). There are also some interesting discrepancies in the books. She says "Back In My Arms Again" was recorded in 1967 even though it was released in 1965. That might seem like a minor error now but it's a bigger difference for a book published in 1971. Elsewhere she claims credit for recording "Bernadette" - by the Supremes!!!!! Now maybe you could try to excuse these as typos or sloppy editing but they strongly support the notion that she played on remakes of these songs, not the original versions.

Someone here claims that Kaye was the first person to record with a Fender bass in LA and even caused Jamerson to switch to Fender bass. This is absolute nonsense. In her books, she says she switched to bass from guitar in 1965. By this time of course not only had Jamerson been recording on Fender bass for years, but so had many others, including LA session great Joe Osborne (rhythm section partner of Hal Blaine) who recorded as many if not more hits than Kaye including songs by the Byrds, Mamas & Papas, Association, Grass Roots and 3 Dog Night.

Finally, I have an album on which Kaye does indisputably play "I Was Made To Love Her" - by the Beach Boys. Compare it to the original version by Stevie Wonder and there is no question it is someone trying to copy the original note for note but not able to perform it with the same grace and fluidity.

By Soulboy (213.105.229.79 - 213.105.229.79) on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

To any keen listener the jamerson 'style' is present on most if not all motown records during the years 1959-1971, the only exceptions being those played by Bob Babbit who's style was similar to jamerson.
I don't understand carol, she persists in making these claims yet the evidence suggests otherwise.
what can she gain by this?
The thing is that her talent is unquestioned, her work with the Beach Boys alone makes her the stuff of legend.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 06:36 pm:

Interesting that she only began playing bass in '65. I remember seeing her books in a music store around 1974 but I didn't look closely because the Motown claims were so absurd. I'm always willing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and had been told she was the first in LA by a couple of people who I thought should have known.

Does anybody know exactly when Motown had Jamerson switch to the Fender? He played upright on a lot of the early stuff and probably would have continued if modern bass pickups had been available back then. Bob Babbitt has been playing upright for a local gig here in Nashville. The sound of him playing a classic Motown song on his upright is utterly stunning.

By M.McLeanTech (63.212.132.175 - 63.212.132.175) on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 06:40 am:

Bob Olhsson,

Holy cow! Thank you for your posting on this thread:

START PASTE IN

Motown engineer Cal Harris interned with Chuck Britz, the Beach Boys' engineer, and handled many vocal sessions for them when they couldn't get time with Chuck. Cal engineered the backing track for "Good Vibrations" at Gold Star and Motown hired him from Gold Star.

Cal is very modest and I don't think most of us knew about his background beyond having worked as an engineer in L.A. The "Good Vibrations" credit put my jaw on the floor and Cal told me about interning when I called him up to ask about it. Cal mixed Marvin Gaye's version of Grapevine and became the head of Motown Detroit's engineering department after Brian Holland and Lawrence Horn left. Cal helped Larry Miles, Art Stewart and myself learn to become all-around recording engineers and have careers in the industry.

END PASTE IN

Cal Harris is very modest, and almost unknown to this forum. Cal and I were great pals, and we still are in communication. He is an intelligent, serious person. When my wife died, he sent me a beautiful email letter. He brought his father over to my father's house one night in the mid 1960's to hear our stereo system.

The point of this posting is that I had no idea whatever where Chuck Britz fit into the picture. You say he mentored Cal Harris. Wow! When I joined Hanna-Barbera in 1986, Chuck was the sound transfer man. He smoked two packs a day, and was a total trip. I worked with him for about three years, left Hanna-Barbera, and returned, to work with him for another year or so until he retired.

I knew that he was the mixer for the Beach Boys, but I had no idea that he had worked with Cal Harris.

Chuck passed away about three years ago. I remember all those days that I spent eight hours a day working in the next room. I often would go in and chat with him. He was very intense, but he never really let on a damn thing other then to look at you, during small talk, with fire in his eyes, as he reached for yet another cigarette.

Oh how I wish I had given him a hug before he went away!

Thanks, Bob, for this priceless insight. Wait until I tell Cal about my working with Chuck!

Love ya baby!

Mike McLean