By phillysoulman (64.12.104.26 - 64.12.104.26) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHETHER TONY BONGIOVI THE FORMER OWNER OF POWER STATION STUDIOS IN NYC, WAS EVER A MOTOWN ENGINEER/ EMPLOYEE?? HE USED TO SWEAR THAT HE WAS. HE HAD A MOTOWN PICTURE I.D. CARD.
HE HAD A RACK OF EQULISERS THAT HAD MOTOWN ENGRAVED ON THE FACEPLATE, PROBABLY BUILT BY THE STAFF. BUT RALPH T. MENTIONED TO ME THAT HE DOES NOT THINK TONY EVER WORKED THERE, AND I DO CONCUR.
TONY WOULD POINT OUT CERTAIN PARTS OF SONGS AND GIV EME TECHNOLOGICAL INFO REGARDING THESE TRACK AS IF HE WAS THERE. DONT GET ME WRONG, TONY IS A GREAT GUY AND A GOOD FRIEND BUT SOMEHOW I HAVE MY DOUBTS WHETHER HE WORKED THERE.
HOW HE AQUIRED THE E.Q. MODULES REMAIND A MYSTERY TO ME. MAYBE HE HAD HIS STAFF MAKE THEM UP, OR EVEN JOE MEEKS' GHOST(LOL) NOTHING SURPRISES ME.
I MUST MENTION THE "ELECTRONIC SCROTUM"
AT SIGMA, WHEN OUR SOUND BECAME FASHIONABLE, THERE WAS AN INFLUZX OF OUTSIDE "PRODUCERS" WHO WANTED TO GET " THAT PHILLY SOUND"
SO FOR THE "PRODUCERS" WHO WERE NOT REALLY QUALIFIED TO BE IN THE BIZ, I DEVESED A SCHEME.
, BEING THE COMEDIC PRANKSTER THAT I WAS AND STILL CLAIM TO BE. THESE "PRODUCERS" WERE ALWAYS SCREAMING "MORE BALLS-MORE BALLS"
SO I GOT AN ANCIENT ROTARY FADER COMPLETE WITH A POINT AND CLICK STOPS. I THEN HAD A FACE PLATE ENGRAVED THAT SAID "ELECTRONIC SCROTUM"
I HAD A SMOKED PLEXIGLAS SLIDING THING-A-MA-BOB
FASHIONED INTO THE PRODUCERS' SIDE OF THE DESK, AND PLACED THE KNOB AND FACEPLATE WHICH WAS A VINTAGE LOOKING BURNISHED SILVER WHICH I HAD MADE TO LOOK FADED, COMPLETE WITH WIRES ON THE TERMINAL THAT LED TO A NON-EXISTANT LOCATION.
SO WHEN THEY SCREAMED "MORE BALLS-MORE BALLS"
I WOULD TELL THEM THAT I WOULD LET THEM IN ON A SECRET BECAUSE WE THOUGHT SO MUCH OF THEM. I WOULD SLIDE THE COVER OPEN AND THE KNOB WOULD MAGICALLY APPEAR. WITH EVERY CLICK OF THE KNOB WHICH WAS PLACBO, THEIR FACES WOULD JUST LIGHT UP AND SOME TIMES THEY WOULD EVEN TURN IT DOWN BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT IT WAS TOO OVER THE TOP!!!! THEN WHEN THEY WERE SATISFIED, THEY WOULDSREAM " NOW THAT'S THE PHILLY SOUND"

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 04:54 pm:

Bobby's story is just a good example of how superstitious some people in the record business can be. When Harry Balk did Del Shannon's " Runaway " at United Sound, the unusual keyboard solo you hear is an instrument known as an ondioline ( SP? ) Well the record was a big hit and everyone wanted to record at United to get that keyboard sound, so they would do there sessions using United's Hammond B-3 and couldn't quite figure out why they were not getting the same sound as the Del Shannon record.

By Carl Dixon (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 04:57 pm:

More stories please.......

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 05:46 pm:

OK Carl,
Here's one I told Bobby a while back.Occasionally Russ would work with some idiot producer who had no business being in the studio. At times during a mixing session the idiot producer might ask Russ to bring a certain track of the mix way up. Well Russ knows the guy is a moron and if he does his buiding the song becomes toast. So....when the part of the song would arrive that the producer wanted brought up, Russ...with his right hand on the appropriate fader, would thrust his right shoulder forward and not move the fader at all. The producer would see the shoulder thrust and be beside himself with joy at how much better the mix sounded with that particular part brought out more...when in reality, nothing happened.Dazzle 'em with footwork!

By phillysoulman (152.163.206.178 - 152.163.206.178) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:00 pm:

FIRST OF ALL,PLEASE EXCUSE MY TYPOS IN MY PREVIOUS POST. I JUST GOT TOO CARRIED AWAY WITH DRIFTING ON A MEMORY. THERE IS A STORY OF A SESSION THAT I DID IN LONDON FOR A NOVICE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER WHO WAS THE FATHER OIF ONE OF THE GROUP MEMBERS. THE SESSION WAS 24 TRACK AND JUST 24 CHANNELS IN AND OUT. WHEN THE TAPE WAS FULL HE WANTED TO GIVE ME 100 QUID TO COME UP WITH A 25TH TRACK!!!!! THERE WERE NO TRACKS TO BOUNCE TO AND I DID NOT WANT TO DO A STEREO MIX AND THEN BOUNCE BACK TO 24, ETC., AND I DID NOT WANT TO TAKE HIS MONEY AND RUN. SO I HAD TO GIVE HIM A QUICK LESSON ON AUDIO ENGINEERING PRACTICES.
ANOTHER TIME, IN PHILLY THERE WAS A GIRL IN THE CONTROL ROOM LOOKING ALL AROUND THE DESK AND ON THE FLOOR AND WITH A LOOK OF PUZZLEMENT ON HER FACE. WE WERE DOING KEYBOARD STUFF IN THE CONTROL ROOM. SHE FINALLY BROKE DOWN AND INQUIRED
"WHERE IS THE HIDDEN MIKE?" SO I HAD TO EXPLAIN
"TAKING IT DIRECT" TO HER AND SHE THOUGHT I WAS HITTING ON HER SEXUALLY!!!!!!!!

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:01 pm:

i can quite believe that ralph. it's all in the mind!

i'm sure that the ondioline was an instrument mentioned with affection by raynoma in her book.

By phillysoulman (152.163.206.178 - 152.163.206.178) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:11 pm:

F*****KIN' BLOODY AMAZING THESE NIMWIT TWITS THAT RAKE IN ALL THIS CASH AND WE PROS HAVE TO BEAR THE BRUNT OF IT ALL. THERE WAS A DRUMMER IN PHILLY (NOT EARL) WHO USED TO COME IN DURING A PLAYBACK AND DANCE ALL OVER THE PLACE AND CLAP AND GRUNT AND MAKE EVERYONE THINK IT WAS HAPPENING WHEN AT THE END OF THE DAY THERE WERE INCONSISTANCIES IN RHYTHM, ESPECIALLY COMING OUT OF A FILL AND HE WOULD JUST KEEP ON GROOVIN".
HE EVEN HAD ME FOOLED A FEW TIMES!!!!!

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:23 pm:

Just like magic. So, you just went through the motions and they were happy. There must be hundreds of stories like that. Those, along with the trivia stuff like Bobbi's scrotum thingy are excellent reading. I could listen to them all day long! Especially if they are connected with a particular artist or song, they become more intriguing. The more the merrier.......

Thanks

Carl

By phillysoulman (152.163.206.178 - 152.163.206.178) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

I HAD HEARD THAT JAMERSON USED TO FOOL SOME LOWER RUNG GUYS INTO THINKING THAT CERTAIN LINES WERE THE S**T!!!! I AM SURE THAT THERE MUST BE A LOT OF SIMILAR MOTOWN FAUX PAS. (PLEASE EXCUSE MY FRENCH)
RALPH, THAT ONDIOLINE MUST HAVE BEEN A RENTAL AND
PROBABLY WAS NOT A STANDARD UNITED FIXTURE.
YOU WOULD THAT SOME STUDIOS CAME WITH THEIR OWN SHAMANS OR MYSTICAL MERLINS THAT ARE ON THE PAYROLL THAT CONJURE UP GROOVE SPELLS.
I HEARD THAT NORMAN WHITFIELD HAD TO HAVE HIS MUSICIANS MOVING IN THEIR CHAIRS WITH THE BEAT, OTHERWISE IT WAS NOT HAPPENING. I GUESS THAT EVEN IF YOU FEEL IT INSIDE AS I DO IT JUST WOULD NT COUNT. YOU ALMOST WOULD HAVE TO "POP AND LOCK" IN YOUR SEAT!!!!!! SOME OF THE ROSE ROYCE FOLKS TOLD ME THAT ONE AS I LATER HAD PRODUCED AN ALBUM FOR THEM.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

I know Del Shannon isn't strictly relevant to Detroit Soul, but there is a connection. Charles Westover - aka Del Shannon - from Grand Rapids, Michigan was first spotted by Ollie Mclaughlin, who recommended him to Harry Balk, who leased his records to Big Top. Also, strictly for trivia value (?) the keyboard player who supplied all the solos on his records was a guy called Max Crook.

By RalphTerrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 09:13 pm:

Ritchie,
thanks for the information on the player. Bobby...you're right ...the ondioline was not part of United's equipment. I thought it was owned by this Italian kid named Frank something or other...but now Ritchie has given it another possibility. I'll have to call Harry and ask him.

By John Lester (213.122.200.7 - 213.122.200.7) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 10:53 pm:

I cant get enough of this.....

Keep it comin.......who's turn next....

Bobby..it's your turn.....

By phillysoulman (152.163.197.178 - 152.163.197.178) on Tuesday, January 29, 2002 - 11:40 pm:

BACK IN 1984 TONY BONGIOVI WAS ASKED TO PRODUCE SOME ADVERTS FOR LINCOLN-MERCRY AUTOMOBILES AT HIS STUDIO POWER STATION IN NYC.THE ADVERTS WERE TO BE BASED ON MOTOWN SONGS. TONY, HAD CONVINCED THE PEOPLE AT THE AGENCY THAT HE WORKED AT MOTOWN AND HE COULD GET THE SOUND ALLEGEDLY HAVING WORKED THERE. HE WANTED TO USE MOTOWN MUSICIANS. BY THEN, JAMERSON ANDE BENNY HAS PASSED ON. SO HE DID GET BABBITT. I PLAYED GUITAR, BUDDY WILLIAMS WAS ON DRUMS AND THE GREAT PAUL SHAFFER WAS ON PIANO.PAUL IS SOME HISTORIAN. HE SHOULD LIVE IN ENGLAND. HE KNEW MORE ABOUT ME THAN I DID!!
ANYWAY,HE TRIED TO GET THE ORIGINAL ARTISTS WHERE POSSIBLE, BUT MARVIN HAD JUST PASSED ON SO HE GOT NICK AND VALERIE FOR AINT NOTHING.......
IT WAS FIRST USED ON THE GRAMMY TELECAST THAT YEAR. IT WAS PRETTY CONVINCING EVEN IF HE DID NOT WORK AT MOTOWN. HE USED HIS "MOTOWN E.Q.S TO THE HILT.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 07:27 pm:

Bobby,

To get back to th3e start of this - whether or not
Tony Bongiovi ever worked for Motown.

Personally I very much doubt it for a couple
of reasons

1. Motown very rarely recorded in New York.
Apart from obvious things like the "Live At The
Copa" albumse and one of the MArvelettes singles
I can't think offhand of anything recorded other
than in Detroit or LA.

2. The first time I came across Tony's name was
when he was working with JAy Ellis (? ) on those
early Gloria Gaynor discs - they were as far as
I know his first professional credits as an engineer and / or producer. I think we'd have
heard if he'd done any work for Motown after
those singles became successful.

Here's something that might interest you - I'd
have to do a bit of digging to verify this but
I seem to recall reading that Tony worked as a
studio "go-fer" at, I think, Electric Ladyland,
Jimi Hendrix owned in New York. One of the first
records he was allowed to engineer was an album
on the Isley Brother's T-Neck label by a band
called Privilege. What's interesting about them
is that they were an offshoot of the original
lineup of the Soul Survivors. I no longer have
the album - frankly it's not up to much - so
my memory might be a bit off but The ex- Survivors
involved were Eddie Leonetti and Paul Venturini.
(Good Philly Italian boys - do you know them ?)

The Soul Survivors have been a pet fascination of mine for years - they hardly ever get mentioned
these days but made a lot of good records, There
are few fanatical Soul Survivors fans dotted around and they all seem to be on the same mailing lists. I'd love to know what Richard
and Charles Ingui are doing these days - the last
sighting I had of them was doing backup vaocals for Felix Cavaliere's last album - boy they
must've loved that !

If I can find the book I read that mentioned
Tony's early days I'll do a further post ( it
was a biography of Aerosmith of all things )

By phillysoulman (64.12.104.36 - 64.12.104.36) on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 - 11:44 pm:

DAVIE,

TONY CLAIMS THAT HE WORKED IN DETROIT AT MOTOWN, COMPLETE WITH A PICTURE I.D. AND ALL. BUT AS WE KNOW THESE THINGS COULD JUST AS WELL BE BOGUS.AS FAR AS THE MOTOWN EQUALISERS, THEY COULD BE A COUSIN TO MY "ELECTRONIC SCROTUM"

By John Lester (213.1.165.82 - 213.1.165.82) on Thursday, January 31, 2002 - 02:35 pm:

Motown recorded everywhere.........the tapes would be returned and overdubbing and so on would take place.

Keen ears (like from those of us over 45!!) can usually tell whether tracks are Detroit or not. Although it's a bit difficult to tell in some cases....like on Brenda Holloway's "When I'm Gone"...the band track was recorded in Detroit but Brenda did her vocals on the West Coast. Dearest Brenda would sound great whether she sung in LA, Detroit or even Manchester - as she proved when she sang "I'll Be Alright" with the lyrics on a piece of paper!!! What great fun that was!

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.127.26 - 68.53.127.26) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 08:11 am:

TB had a time card in the rack for a while and BG flew him in for a few sessions. I think the last was an initial rhythm session for "Love Child" that was recut a few days later by James Green or Bob Gratts. TB also did some mixing on that tune but BG felt they were too gimmicky and released one of his own mixes. We never saw TB again after that. I think it would be fair to say that TB worked very occasionally at Motown but he didn't work on anything very significant that I can recall. I'll ask some of the other engineers.

A number of the features of Power Station were obviously very influenced by Hitsville.

By phillysoulman (64.12.107.42 - 64.12.107.42) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 08:32 am:

Bob,
Thanks for the clarification.
I was also wondering where the "Motown" eqs came from that were among the Power Station processing tools, and how could they have been acquired by someone who worked there sporadically?

Thanks Bob

By Ralph Terrana (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

When it comes to needing any kind of Motown engineering information you go directly to the main source...Bob Ohlsson.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 03:15 pm:

In that case Ralph!!

Hi, Bob Ohlsson

I heard many years ago that the sound mixer (8 track) track 8 at Motown was used for the bass guitar stuff and due to the fact the studio was in constant use had technical problems and could not be repaired. If I remember,it had distortion on at some time which I thought explained a kind of fatness sound on certain tracks I had heard. Is that the case or am I mistaken?

Thanks

Carl Dixon

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.127.26 - 68.53.127.26) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 03:25 pm:

The so-called "Motown eq" was a standard five-band graphic. The commercial ones used slider controls which were extremely unreliable so when the dedicated 8-track mix room was built in 1966, instead of just buying another eight graphic equalizers, Mike McLean decided to build a much more reliable version in the shop using military specification switches to replace the sliders. He also added an amplifier, a volume control and a bypass switch to make it easier to compare an equalized signal to a flat signal.

Several years later a decision was made to start using the combination of a standard microphone and a standard equalizer for everything. This meant we needed, if I remember correctly, an additional fifteen or twenty of the graphics. These were built by an electronic fabrication company, possibly in Ann Arbor. They used a different amplifier and probably sound different than the original home made version. They had started trickling to Motown in LA as early as 1970 and all wound up in the LA studio. I'm pretty sure they sold a huge batch of used gear from both Detroit and LA around 1975 and this probably included a number of Mike's "ruggedized" graphic equalizers.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 04:35 pm:

The bass was recorded on track 8 because the very first 1" 8-track tape heads had very poor high frequency response on the outside tracks, 1 & 8.
Vocals were recorded on track 1 for the same reason.

We built the very first modern eight track machines. Earlier eight tracks had used pairs of four channel heads to avoid the edge-track high frequency loss and hum problems. You couldn't edit the tapes and you couldn't overdub on individual tracks.

To be honest, that infamous Motown bass sound came almost entirely out of the fingers of James Jamerson and Bob Babbitt. We did remarkably little to Jamerson and even less to Babbitt. Recording them was as easy as falling off a log.

One thing that disturbs me a lot is the amount of snake oil being sold today as recording technology. In the 1960s a musician's job was to create the sound of music and an engineer's job was to record what the musician did as accurately as possible. The most powerful production tool we had was the ability to edit the best performances together. Editing and signal processing are both destructive processes. We can take out or hide what is bad but we can't ever create great performances out of thin air.

The bottom-line of music is performance exactly the way it is in sports. Unfortunately today people want to believe that a pretty little-league team combined with enough technology and advertising can be just as effective as the New York Yankees. It shouldn't come as a big surprise that the major labels are in financial trouble today because they have overlooked the most basic principal of professional music, extraordinary performances by extraordinary people such as Jamerson and Babbitt.

By John Lester (213.122.197.200 - 213.122.197.200) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 04:56 pm:

Bob...

HEAR HEAR....I been saying this for years now!!

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 04:58 pm:

Bob - hi

As a one-time sound engineer and all-time music lover, I could not agree more with the sentiments expressed in your last two paragraphs. I suggest they be copied and pasted, and sent to virtually every Johnny-come-lately "producer" on the charts of today.

I used to take a real interest in the music business but today most it bores me. The plain fact is that the "business" aspect far outweighs the actual music. Too much emphasis on image, hype, movie tie-ins and product placement, flashy videos and interactive websites has meant that music has damn-near gone out of the window.

It therefore does not surprise me one bit that in the 21st century there are many "second generation" fans of the genuine, honest music of the sixties and seventies, enjoying tracks that were recorded before they were born. Advances in recording technology are worthless if the music they are recording is simply mass-produced product aimed at a pre-defined target audience for maximum sales, and about as wholesome, nourishing and satisfying as a bag of potato chips.

I remember Motown being criticised way back when for their "assembly-line" music. But compared to today's throwaway music, Berry Gordy's assembly-line was building a fleet of Ross-Royce cars!

End of sermon

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 05:29 pm:

Thank you Bob O.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear. I work in television and we have a similar problem with vtr technology for the same/similar reasons. The way the heads are aligned and the time code that rumbles down the side causes problems too. BVU machines used track 2 as their main, as often track 1 got damaged, but you would survive and do a dub! NTSC, now that's another story!

Did you, as engineer/technician have a procedure, similar to our tv equipment, where you would switch on, warm up!, line up ready for recording? I have done head alignment on a simple tape recorder on a tv course I did years ago. We are/were always frightened in our studios whether we had forgotten some of the basics, because production had put pressure on to crack on and record, rather than double check the equipment. At least we are blessed with 'confidence' heads on vtr's these days and you can actually see and hear what you have just recorded instantly! What is amazing

Thanks

Carl

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 05:33 pm:

Our "assembly-line" was very different from what most people assumed. It was a lot more of a team effort than I've ever encountered elsewhere but there were no formulas besides recording a lot of music and only releasing the very best of what we came up with. We did get hot at times and a number of similar sounding big hits could come out of the same three-hour session and be released over a period of months. The Motown process was an amazing balance of intelligence, love for each other and guts.

One reason people describe Motown as oppressive is that we couldn't honestly take much personal credit for what we did there as an individual. This trashed everybody's ego but I've come to suspect that the egoless energy that remained is a major part of what made the Detroit Motown music so extraordinarily accessible.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 05:45 pm:

We left our equipment on all the time and every control room got a couple hours of daily maintainence and allignment.

NTSC is an interesting topic because until recently there was no way to directly compare unconverted signals side by side. Most of the bad reputation of NTSC has to be attributed to the fact that we had dramatically more limited budgets for sets and lighting that you did in Europe. There was no question in anybody's mind that European television looked far better than North American TV did during the '60s and '70s but being techno-centric we assumed it was because of NTSC's color stability issues rather than simply spending a lot more on what was put in front of the cameras.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.5 - 62.252.128.5) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 05:48 pm:

as accountant for a small manufacturing company in glasgow i know that there is very fine line between management and production.

if our management was weak we would fail.

motown's management was strict and that's why it suceeded.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

Bob O -

to continue - I hit the wrong button!

What is amazing, that tape creases and drop outs are almost totally hidden with digital technology with a full colour and audio bandwidth of 5.5Megs!

Cheers
Carl

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 07:22 pm:

Remember that Berry Gordy had been trained as a boxer. Egomaniacs quickly wind up flat on their faces in boxing. He paid strict attention to what he experienced really working as opposed to what others did or theories about what should work. As he stopped being involved day to day in the records, Motown probably turned into just another record company. Russ Terrana would have a much clearer viewpoint but I would attribute more of Motown's success to Berry Gordy's exceptional personal intelligence and charisma than to the company's strict management style.

By phillysoulman (152.163.207.178 - 152.163.207.178) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:20 am:

Bob,

As your counterpart in the post Motown burgeoning Philly music mecca, let me thank you for all of your invaluable first hand technical information that you have shared with us, and I can relate wholeheartedly to everything that you have posted on this forum thus far. There are several differences that existed in Philly that were to the musicians advantage, myself having been the primary guitarist at the time. Although as MFSB, we became the Funk Bros of philly, we were free agents insfar as being allowed to play on anyones'
recordings.

I am sure that Gamble and Huff would have preferred that we would have signed exclusive contracts, we were not having any of that nonsense!! The combination of our collective styles and the uniqueness of Sigma Sounds'studio characteristics did put a stamp on the records that were done but G&H didn't want to lose that combination so if we walked then the overall sound would change and they knew it and bit the bullet. We did sign artist contracts for the albums that we did but clauses had to go in that would negate any exclusivity regarding being session musicians only for G&H.
I know that Motown would not go for that kind of arrangement at first.
Regarding the "Motown" equalizers that were discussed earlier, the were parametric eqs with a look similar to Pultecs although with a silver face and the knobs were a bit smaller and property of Motown recording corp.,was stamped on the back plate. I think that had he six of them.
Also if you scroll up to the first entry on this post there is a funny but true t"technical tidbit" that you may enjoy.
Once again, thank you!!

Bobby Eli

By phillysoulman (152.163.207.178 - 152.163.207.178) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:39 am:

Bob,
I forgot to mention that if you check out the post "PHILLY-DETROITOPHILE" in mention the time when we incorporated Babbitt and Andrew Smith on a lot of sessions that both Thom Bell and myself produced. It was an idyllic experience.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 11:04 am:

Bob O - television trivia on a Detroit music forum! Could we be marched off the premises?

Just briefly on the NTSC thing - The North American system was better because it allows 4 field edit, where as in Europe it is 8, making things a little difficult, however, once the signal was modulated you then needed to introduce your 'Hue' button which we do not have on our sets, to correct your phase errors. PAL has a 90 degree swinging burst which corrects the phase errors. Our line frequency increased too, but our fram rate became 25 rather than 30, because our electricity supply here is 50htz and yours is 60htz. But Bob O, where do you think I would have rather been in a tv station or at MOTOWN???? I am very specific what moving pictures I like to see on the TV. A handful of programmes only. The rest of my time is listening to the music and artist I love, finding new 'old stuff' and trying to analyse how it was all put together. This forum has opened my eyes tremendously. I also appreciate any technical conversation to, even TV, but especially how my favourite songs were recorded and if there was anything on the day that happened in the studio that would of interest. Something like the Ampex tape stock on a certain batch created velocity errors and that's why you can hear this or that on a particular track today! For example, I have a 'Debunte' Motown compilation at home and on it there is 'Keep on loving me' by Francis Nero and it sounds like it has been dubbed straight from a record. I once had the import in my hand from a friend years ago and I believe it was on 'Soul' records. I would like to know why! Is it because the master is lost or destroyed. Was it an error or something like that? It fascinates me!

Bob -I am at work and a colleague has just asked me to ask you did you use any '12AX7' tubes in your mixer equipment? Double tri-ode if that means anything! At that level I am afraid I am lost.

Maybe we need a technical thread - what do you think?

Carl

By John Lester (213.122.202.82 - 213.122.202.82) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 11:49 am:

Carl

Keep On Lovin' Me WAS dubbed from a scratchy 45...so were a few others........Like A Nightmare, Goodnight Irene.......some even from acetates...Its Too Late, Forever In My Heart

I wasn't happy about it..but it was a start of something good cos that CD sold ALOT of copies.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 12:27 pm:

John

I have that CD too, and easily sussed that some tracks had a vinyl/acetate origin. I'd have been more than happy to remaster that stuff, and would have been much more careful with the CEDAR ;o)

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 02:56 pm:

Why were they dubbed from 45rpm records? I do not understand. Did Motown allow this?? I must admit, similar to Radio Luxemburg on AM radio and how bad that sounded, that is all I know of how some of my records sound because they are mono/imports from years ago, but I would have never thought a Motown CD to have dubbed versions like this on. I agree if they are lost or destroyed, fine, similar to the 'Shrine' CD I have where they could not find master tapes in the vaults. Infact, sometimes it is nostalgic to hear songs like when first heard all those years ago and it is a shock to hear CD bandwidth on your favourite tunes, when purchased today.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

Once again, I'm going to stick my neck out here....

I handle quite a lot of digital restoration, both professionally and for pleasure. And, remastering from vinyl can sometimes produce better results than transfers from master tapes. (Remember, I said "sometimes".)

If the original master tape has deteriorated - 1/4" tape can suffer deterioration if not carefully stored - the sound can be fuzzy and lacking in high frequencies. It can also be noisy if it's an umpteenth-generation analog copy, with a poor signal-to-noise ratio. (A lot of hiss.) In some cases, a decent-condition 45 can produce better results.

Vinyl can actually preserve the original recording better than a badly cared-for or degraded master tape, as it's in reality more subject to physical damage than actual deterioration of sound quality. It's now possible to digitally remove clicks scratches and surface noise, leaving only the original recording. This can then be re-equalised to benefit from the extended frequency range available to CD players. Very often, there are "hidden depths" in an old record which can be accessed with today's technology. (Just think of many CDs of vintage Jazz, transferred from old 78s. They sound better today than they possibly could when were new, given the advances in home audio equipment.)

Finally, when no master tapes exist, dubbing from vinyl is the only alternative, but it does not have to be seen as a second-best solution. Handled carefully, the results can be quite stunning.

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

There were at least a couple times when all of the tapes and metal parts for a song were lost and we needed to master from one of the remaining pressings in order to make more. The earliest stuff had been recorded in independent studios in Chicago, New York and Detroit and then sold to various labels. As the company became successful, Berry would buy the masters back. Early tapes could turn up anywhere including a notorious damp corner in Smokey's basement.

Fortunately Berry Gordy rarely made an oversight twice and under his watch the masters were carefully stored off premesis with first generation copies in multiple locations. Unfortunately from time to time changes in personnel resulted in new people who didn't know where to look or who to ask.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 03:50 pm:

I now stand educated! I remember speaking to Trojan Records in London. They had the same problem. They opened cans of Ska and Reggae stuff from the late 60's/early 70's and oxide fell out all over the place. They put stuff through a digital process too, to bring it back to normality. I know when I have opened up 2 inch video tape stuff from the same period, it has this wonderful smell, but you can tell it will be a problem going around the tape transport system. Would this mean then, a company like Motown, but have re-archived their stuff onto other formats by now, or not, even if just a back up?? It must be a shock to find your precious master suffering from a fault whilst stored in the correct place for 30 years.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:10 pm:

Carl -
I know Trojan has no Motown relevance, but I had to throw this in....

A lot of Trojan/Island's masters from the 60s were actually straight dubs from Jamaican vinyl. When they licensed a record for UK release, the original Jamaican producer frequently sent an ordinary pressing of the track, not a master tape. As a notable example, the Upsetters' "Return Of Django" - a UK Top Ten hit in 1969 - was mastered from a 45 that Lee Perry simply put in the post to Trojan!

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:13 pm:

Almost all of the bad tape problems apply to tape that was manufactured after 1972. Everything from Detroit should play just fine unless it was from an occasional defective batch of tape that developed shedding problems within the first few years.

Considering that the tape manufacturers told us none of our old tapes should be playable after ten years and their new stuff should last forever, anybody with experience has to be left with great skepticism about what media is or is not reliable. I find digital archiving very frightening because the kind of problem that leaves analog media degraded but playable leaves digital media totally unplayable. The only thing we know for sure is that there is no legitimate way to know how long something will last beyond how long it has already lasted.

By Ritchie Hardin (62.254.0.5 - 62.254.0.5) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 04:27 pm:

Bob

Wasn't there a problem with Ampex tape in the sixties? I seem to remember haering something about tapes almost literally falling apart in a cloud of oxide when the cans were opened. (Rather like Carl's experience with VT)

Also, I do agree with you regarding the question of digital archiving... I've frequently heard reference to an "expected life of 300 years". Without the benefit of a time machine, how the hell can they be so confident, when the medium is relatively new?

By phillysoulman (205.188.197.159 - 205.188.197.159) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 06:32 pm:

Hi Guys, B. Eli here.

Let me add this to the tape degradation problem.
At one time we switched over to BASF brand tape, and there have been instances where even during the first run through you would see oxide residue on the heads!! The tape also was a thinner mil.
Originally we used Scotch 250 and after the BASF fiasco, ampex 456 and later 490.
When we were using Dolby(which I dreaded) sometimes we would , on playback disengage the Dolby from specific tracks for better high end , especially where noise was not an issue such as guitars, percussive keyboards such as a clavinet and various drum tracks.
On another note,Sigma had a live echo chamber( it was called echo , although technically it was reverb) that ran the length of studio a.
It was about thirty five feet long,six feet wide and fifteen feet high, and has an RCA 77 on a boom
suspended high up and an Altec Voice of the theatre cabinet on the other end.
You could really hear it on some of the early stuff such the Jery Butler albums, The O'jays in Philadelphia < Wilson Picket, Dusty Springfield The Ethics, all of the stuff from 1968 through
1973 or so.
It was a carry over from its previous owners.
When you were mixing you had to be wery quiet when going down the hall to the loo,for sometimes footsteps were picked up!
Unfortunately, it eventually became a closet and storage area. It was so characteristic of the early Philly sound ansd in my opinion, should not have been tampered with. If its not broke dont fix it. Also, they used a tape delay usually at about 110-120ms,that was controlled by a variable speed oscilator with a giant knob on it(larger than my afforementioed device). If you listen to Billy Pauls' "Me and Mrs. Jones", you can really appreciate this combination at its' best, even on the cymbal bleed!!
We also had a very pre-historic Eventide 910, a Prime Time, AKG bx10,Cooper time cube and the first " automation" made especially for Sigma by Allison, whereby you had to dedicate two tracks for the info to be recorded. It was stored on these 'Giant" floppies, that were really floppy.

Bye for now,

B. Eli

By John Lester (213.122.195.215 - 213.122.195.215) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 06:41 pm:

On the Motown Debutant CD.....can I just say that the CD was put together by London.........not from the States...


So Harry is in the clear!

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 06:57 pm:

Bobby - perfect trivia of the highest calibre. I have been wondering for years how that was done. Great stuff.

Carl

By Bob Olhsson (68.53.120.100 - 68.53.120.100) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 11:53 pm:

Motown recordings in Detroit were made using 3M Scotch 201 or 206.

Mike Mclean built an 8 track automation system called the "mixmatic" around 1967. BG did a blind shoot out with people mixing the same songs both ways. The spliced together mixes sounded better to him so we never used automation in Detroit although Mike's Hall effect volume control technology was used in our 16 track mixing consoles for fader grouping.