By david, glasgow, scotland (66.32.112.44 - 66.32.112.44) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 11:35 pm:

anyone out there frequent the twenty grand in the sixties? Below is what is left of the 20 grand. Unfortunately the 20 Grand is demolished. The remaining motel is significant however because ed wingate owned it - he also owned golden world on davison.

By Clay (64.108.57.99 - 64.108.57.99) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 11:08 pm:

Hello,
My name is Clay McMurray, former writer,producer,
engineer for Motown Records. The Twenty Grand was a one of a kind entertainment center, featuring some of the best entertainers in the world. I had the pleasure of the Twenty Grand Experience for a number of years and because of my personal relationship with the owners BK and Marty I was able to showcase several artist that I produced or
managed,Emanuel Lasky,The Different Shades of Brown, The Monticello's, Eddie Hill, Joe Matthews to name a few. BK was very instrumental in keeping R&B flowing in the city and it's too bad that there has never been anything to date quite like it. For those of you that never had the opportunity to enter the doors of this Famous Venue, that had the likes of The Temptations,The Miracles, The Tops, Martha Reeves, Jackie Wilson, Chuck Jackson, The Flamingo's Funkadelic,Edwin Starr, Bill Doggett,Jimmy Smith, The Spinners, The Marvelettes, Marvin Gaye,Contours, Supremes, Billy Stewart, Joe Tex,Marlena Shaw, Brook Benton, and so many talented others I almost feel sorry for you, because I don't think it will ever get any better than the above shows that I personally had the good fortune to enjoy. I will cherish the memories of every artist that worked and walked through the doors of the 20 Grand Lounge.

By acooolcat (211.78.0.219 - 211.78.0.219) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

Clay,
How are you? I've been trying to contact you recently as I was in Detroit a couple of weeks ago. I called your cousin Bobby but just got his voice mail - I've heard he's busy at the casinos!
Certainly the 20 grand was THE place and I wish I had a time machine! Did you prefer the Gold Room, or The Driftwood Lounge?
Cheers, Graham

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Saturday, October 06, 2001 - 08:45 pm:

clay
it's fantastic to hear from you.

i hope you saw my piece on billie kennedy's 'this is a groovy generation'. it's in amongst the united sound stuff. one of my favourite records of all time.

i was given an article on the 20 grand by acooolcat and it makes really interesting reading. i will try and put up some detail from it later.

we can only dream in the u.k. of what it was like in sixties detroit. as my knowledge is growing, i can only believe that the music scene must have been incredible.

you may also have noticed that i was demoralised that the thelma building has been demolished on grand river. apparently it was next to a theater. do you recall that?

many thelma tracks, some of which were yours, are loved by thousands of people in the u.k.

i wonder if you could look at my photograph and give us some kind of estimate where the building was, and what it looked like both outside and inside.

was there still some link up with the building on dexter? was there a demo studio studio in either of the buildings?

i hope you can help.

By Ade (193.129.220.205 - 193.129.220.205) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 12:15 am:

David, Clay, Graham et al
Another point of note (mentioned saturday David)is that during the intro of the great soul/disco side "Under your Powerful love" by Joe Tex, he mentions that he "checked in at the 20 grand motel (where I always stay), to hang out with the brothers". So it may be fair to assume that Old Joe held the place in fond regard too.!!

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

i think joe liked the sisters too! skinny legs and all.

thanks ade

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 09:55 am:

A bit of trivia... The Motel was owned by Ed Wingate, some people think he owned the 20 Grand CLUB, but he didn't.

By maredda (130.49.149.44 - 130.49.149.44) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 02:02 pm:

Hi everyone! It's a shame that places like the 20 Grand were not maintained as monuments to the art of Detroit's rich soul music legacy. How about some of the other places where R&B legends performed in Detroit... what is there status today?

Mr. McMurray, you are extremely lucky for actually being there and helping in the music making process.

Hi Graham! Thanks for tellin' us about this place, it's groovy!

By acooolcat (211.72.121.66 - 211.72.121.66) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 02:44 pm:

Hi Maredda,
Most of the clubs that were popular in the 1960s have been demolised, caught fire, fallen down, or whatever; they're gone. Phelps is still standing, so is the lesser known Hobby Bar and The Moonglow Lounge. But places like Mr Kellys, The Webbwood Inn, The Chit Chat, etc' etc' have sadly disappeared.
Graham

By david, glasgow, scotland (217.32.135.115 - 217.32.135.115) on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 03:28 pm:

thanks for checking in Maredda. we have only just begun, as they say.

Phelps, The Roostertail, The Hobby, The Twenty Grand, The Fox, The Fisher The Chit Chat etc will all be featured in coming months.

I also hope to have a Northern Soul overview up and running in the next fortnight.

graham, do you know what was the addresses of the webbwood and the moonglow were?

apparently the former was on webb at woodward?

By maredda (209.195.139.164 - 209.195.139.164) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 06:59 pm:

What about the fabulous Roostertail, home to many Motown live recordings? Is that still standing?

I just find it hard to believe that Detroiters weren't more diligent in preserving their rich musical culture. I think we U.S. soul fans definitely owe it to our great, soulful British buddies across the pond for keeping the soul fires burning so brightly! :-)

I think the forum's wonderful, by the way, guys!

By maredda (209.195.139.164 - 209.195.139.164) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

What about the fabulous Roostertail, home to many Motown live recordings? Is that still standing?

I just find it hard to believe that Detroiters weren't more diligent in preserving their rich musical culture. I think we U.S. soul fans definitely owe it to our great, soulful British buddies across the pond for keeping the soul fires burning so brightly! :-)

I think the forum's wonderful, by the way, guys!

By John Lester (213.1.167.228 - 213.1.167.228) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:24 pm:

I know for sure that the Roostertail is still around. This time last year, the Roostertail was host to a tribute for the Legendary Ladies of Motown....in attendence were the Velvelettes, Claudette Robinson, Carolyn Crawford, Brenda Holloway, Syreeta, Scherrie Payne, Freda Payne (yeah Freda recorded at Hitsville too), Mabel John, Andantes etc. Also, Dayna Hartwick (woodwind on intro to the Tops' Reach Out, I'll Be There), producer Sylvia Moy, Charm school mistress (!!) Maxine Powell, Miss Janie "Money" Bradford and even some of those secretaries that our Mr T3 (Ralph Terrana) talked about...including Rebecca Giles - Mr Gordy's personal secretary.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 08:06 pm:

maredda

try www.roostertail.com

when we visited in april the owner michael schoenith gave us a guided tour.

i have some nice interior pics to upload later on.

By maredda (130.49.149.41 - 130.49.149.41) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 10:10 pm:

It's my DREAM to meet CLAUDETTE ROBINSON, she is one of my favorite Motown Ladies... scratch that, she IS my favorite. What a classy, classy, talented woman she is. Her voice was indispensable to the Miracles' harmony. Smokey had the leads, but Claudette put it all together, I tell you!

By John Lester (213.1.132.119 - 213.1.132.119) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 05:45 am:

You keep aiming for that dream. I can vouch for Claudette being better than any dream...a most sincere, genuine, honest and WARM person - she makes you feel really special.

By david, glasgow, scotland (217.32.123.144 - 217.32.123.144) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 07:43 am:

have you all heard 'mr misery'? claudette sings lead.

it's on the miracles 'lost and found' compact disc.

like, claudette, it's absolutely stunning.
i've never seen a more attractive woman!

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.4 - 62.252.128.4) on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 08:54 pm:

i'm compiling my top20 favourite detroit recordings of all time and 'mr misery' gets in there.

on examining the cd notes i observed john lester's name.

what do you know of this amazing recording john.

By BeBopFred (166.90.233.118 - 166.90.233.118) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 05:45 am:

I was fortunate enough to have practiced in one of the many thriving record studios in the 60's in Detroit. I played in a band that rehersed and played backup for groups under the management of Chuck Stokes. He had tried to start a recording studio on Twelth Street near Blaine (on the east side of the street). But it never did open. Chuck's brother, Michael Stokes, who was about 12 or thirteen at the time went on to become very successful writing and producing for the Enchantment as well as other artists. In fact he produced Smokey's latest CD. The band I was with was the Bell-Hops (yeah, that's right). We all started in high school (Curtis Sharp, Zachary, Howard, Rudy Thomas and me were the orginal members).

I remember going to the Twenty Grand on Sunday evenings. I remember seeing the Temps, Originals, Supremes, for sure. But I also remember the "not so famous" groups, the Deans, the Turbans, The Love Tones (weren't they the back up group for Mary Wells), Emmaule on guitar with (????..forgot the group), the Emmerals, Johnnie May Matthews, Spyder Turner, on and on.......

By John Lester (213.1.163.12 - 213.1.163.12) on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 08:57 am:

Mr Misery......well what can I say....Claudette has one of the most sweetest voices ever...why she wasn't used much more in the foreground is something we can only wish for.

Claudette has another solo on the Miracles Anthology "My Heart Says Yes" - this is the same double CD that contains the Miracles backing Frank Wilson on "'Til You Were Gone" and I just know you guys know that one!

Those Claudette titles are two of the very few recordings on the Miracles that did not feature Smokey on lead vocal. Those with a lead on Claudette are very few indeed and one of the problems in finding others which have not been issued is that you don't know who is singing lead until you dig out the track and play it. And when you have a lot to choose from......and there are only 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week and 52 weeks in a year...(yeah - I know I was lucky!!!!)

Interstingly, Smokey was helping so many others in the mid 60's that there is much less from the Miracles themselves in that period.....relatively speaking that is. But we all knew that anyway.

You will note that the Lost And Found only goes up to 1964....hopefully in the fullness of time, another volume (s) will come out featuring the later period (he says with fingers crossed!). I hope you all bought the first one because sales determine future releases!