By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

Does anyone know if this Pyramids line up are the Detroit group on SonBert / Cub? Joe Stallings, Rowland Douglas Jr, Richard N Foster, & Hubert Saulsbury?? I think there must be at least 3 Pyramids groups, (C-Note, Davis, Finer Arts, Hollywood, Mark-X, Shell, VJ)
Thanks Keith

By acooolcat (67.25.210.252 - 67.25.210.252) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:56 am:

Keith.
I think The Pyramids were;
Robert Gibson, Damond Rockland, Vernon Williams (ex-Satintones), and Norman Worthy.
Graham

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.33 - 195.219.7.33) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:15 am:

Keith,the Pyramids I know of were also the ex-satintones,who recorded,I Am The Playboy on Sonbert(82861)They did the same record on Cub(9112)and also What is Love on Vee Jay(489).MEL.

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:18 pm:

Keith,

For info. on the (Detroit) Pyramids have a look
at Nikki's Harmony Haven website - there should be
a link at the "Connections" section of this site

By nikki (24.46.200.124 - 24.46.200.124) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 08:22 pm:

Hi everyone,

Yes, we had the pleasure to interview (and then meet) Vern Williams from the Pyramids/Royal Holidays/Satintones, and feature their history on our web site, Harmony Haven. You can access the Pyramids/Royal Holidays by going directly here:

http://members.aol.com/rnbtrain/NEW1.htm

I think you'll find all the info you're looking for on those pages!

In harmony,

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.15 - 195.92.194.15) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 12:29 am:

Thanks everyone, I visit Harmonytrain quite a bit Nikki, missed this one, must be the beer! Next question - I used to have two records on the tiny `BB` label. It was white with sparse red lettering, with `BB` at top. One was by the Soul Set and I am convinced one was by the Buena Vistas, prior to being issued on Marquee. I kept pretty good record of what I had but not this time! Can anyone shed light? Thanks Keith

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7 - 195.219.7.7) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:56 am:

Keith,your not referring to Boss Sauce by the Buena Vistas that came out on BB(4001)are you.MEL.

By acooolcat (67.25.223.174 - 67.25.223.174) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:02 am:

Keith,
BB-4000
The Buena Vistas - "Boss Sauce" and "Sunset"

Graham

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

Keith,

Thought I'd posted this days ago but must have
pressed the wrong keys.

I've a feeling that "BB" was named after Bernie
Binnick who owned Swan. I think he set up the BB
label soon after Swan went bankrupt and used
some held-over or unissued Swan tracks to set
up the new label.

Mr. Eli might be able to shed some light on this.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.170 - 195.92.168.170) on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:58 pm:

Thanks guys. Can anyone tell me if these are Detroit labels or not? ( They mainly come from old Martin Koppel lists from the 70's and I think that if Martin picked them up in Detroit and hadn't heard of 'em before, he'd put 'em out as Detroit) & if `yes`, any details please?? I know it's a lot to ask but this must be the only place to do it!
ANNIE Big Boy Williams
BARBEE '70s
BIG BEAT Cherries
BRAIN STORM Lou Bond
BURMAN Julius Brokington & Magic
C&J C.Edwards
CHARADE Carl Steger
CHECK
CHESTNUT
CITE Robin Lee
CLIX Gene Stump / Bill Swain
CORN
CORONA
COWBOY
DAYLIGHT (owner J De Frisco) Mob
DESERT MOON Norma Jenkins, Enchantment
DJL (NYC address) Johnny Acey
DO
DOUBLE SOUL Wash Allen, Bronzettes
EASTERN Wilson Pickett
FAST TRACK Sugar Billy, Steptones
FLYING EAGLES David Lenyard
FRESH Individuals
GO 4 IT
GRADY 4 Aims
HLS Little Ronnie
HORIZON
HUNCAR
INTERNATIONAL HITS (owner Willie Brown)
JANE
JIBARO Everlife
JOKER Connie Clark
JORDAN majestics
KLONDYKE
MALVERN Shorty Long
MANTICORE keith Christmas
MEL-ADY Gwen Owens
MID WAY betty Johnson
MILLAGE Captions etc Philly??
MUSIC CITY Music City Soul Birds
MUSIC STORE Conquest
NICKELODEON
XI CHAINS
NITRO Jimmy Skylar
NOTOWN '80s Clyde Hopkins
PAMELA (Cal address) Cody Black, Unforgetables
PILLAR (LA address) Sty lettes, Gaye Merritt
PIXIE Majestics
PLAYHOUSE Crazy Things
POLO Jimmy Norman
PORTRAIT Capitols
RED SHANK Jimmy Bryant
REDSTONE
SILVER TIP
SPROUT Freeman Bros
STATE 5 Emeralds
STONE BLUE David Sheffield
JUB (late 50's Gospel) Washington Sisters
TCF Grover Mitchell
TESSERACT
TO-KAY Tokays
VILLA Oz & Sperlings, Magicians
VILLIGE Sea Shells
WENHA Wyndell Harrison
WHEELER DEALERS Big Buddy White & Bell Hops
ZAP Vikings
ZIP ZING JB & V Kings

Thanks a bunch Keith

By David Meikle (213.122.30.146 - 213.122.30.146) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 07:20 am:

To get things going, I would say Joker was L.A. and Frank Wilson's responsibility.

Is it International Soulsville? rather than Hit?
If so, I read an interview by Dennis Edwards that this was done in Detroit and I think he said Willie Brown was responsible.

Did someone say on this forum a few months ago that Mel-Ady was an English contraption via Ady Pierce?

Is the Eastern same silver design as Eddie & Ernie output? If so, I would say not Detroit.

Looking at Desert Moon/FastTrack/Malvern/To-kay/Wheeler Dealers.....I would say Detroit.....but this is a guess based on looking at the artists names.

I have a feeling X1 Chains is Detroit.

By keith Rylatt (195.166.70.10 - 195.166.70.10) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:54 am:

David Thanks for the start, Millage is a real doubt for me. Ady Pierce, who knows his stuff, has it as a Detroit label but I really do wonder.
Keith.

By Flynny (213.122.200.225 - 213.122.200.225) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:54 am:

BRAIN STORM - Chicago

EASTERN - Detroit - cat#WAP1 is Willie Pickett "ON THE STAGE OF LIFE" voc/inst. and is dead good, quite rare and indemand...a lethal cocktail!

HLS - is this the NYC label which also has Harold Andrews on it?

MEL-ADY - Owned by ADY Pierce in the UK (MEL is his wife's name)

MILLAGE - I have an advert/article (for Kelly St.Claire) giving a couple of addresses including a Detroit office...I'll (try) and dig it out.

MUSIC CITY - LA?

PILLAR - Detroit

POLO - LA or Mid-West?

SILVER TIP - Newark?

SPROUT - same label as Johnnie Richardson...not Detroit.

TCF - NYC?

VILLA - LA.

VILLIGE - Detroit

By Flynny (213.1.131.131 - 213.1.131.131) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:05 am:

WOOOOOW...I've found that Millage advert already...filed away in the right place...scarey! ;-)
It reads:

MILLAGE RECORDS is proud to present the new Detroit & Pittsburgh sound starring Kelly St.Clair...the little girl with the big voice..."You took my heart/Funny".
Detroit-Pittsburgh branch
621 Emlin St. Pgh 12, Pa.

Might as well do the discography whilst I'm at it:
101 - KAZIA - I SAY PLEASE - WHAT IS MY LAST HEARTACHE
101 - TAWNEY VONNE - I SAY PLEASE - ?
101 - THE GRANT ST.EXIT - THAT'S WHY I LOVE YOU - I GOT SOUL
102 - THE CAPTIONS - HIT IT - DON'T TAKE YOUR LOVE AWAY FROM ME
104 - THE CONTRAILS - FEEL SO FINE - MAKE ME LOVE YOU
105 - KELLY ST.CLAIR - YOU TOOK MY HEART - ?
105 - THE FOUR REPUTATIONS - CALL ON ME - SORRY
1042 - KELLY ST.CLAIR - DARKNESS ON YOUR MIND - DON'T LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER


OOoooo look...there's an advert for the Fantastic Four's "The whole World is a stage" stating 100,000 sold in 3 weeks...who says these records are rare?! ;-)

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.50 - 195.219.7.50) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 01:07 pm:

Keith,Grady is Detroit as far as I know.At least the Four Aims(who became the 4 Tops)recorded there first record on Grady records (012)titled,If I Had Only Known.MEL.(Dont take it as gospel)

By Davie Gordon (213.18.222.35 - 213.18.222.35) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 02:15 pm:

Desert Moon is a Buddah dist. label from either
NY or New Jersey

IX Chains is from NY ( a subsid. of Mainstream)

TCF - probably NY ( part of Twentieth Century Fox)

Music City - Oakland, Calif.

FAst Track - Philadelphia

Horizon - there were at least 3 different labels
called Horizon. Do you have a catalog number /
artist ?

Burman - probably Philadelphia

C.J. - Chicago

State - you probably mean States, from Chicago

Klondike - probably Nashville

Chestnut - Connecticut

Check - if it's Sugar Pie DeSanto it's Oakland.

Malvern - probably LA

Daylight - Chicago (related to TwiNight, Sunlight)

Manticore - what on earth's it doing here ???
distributed in the US by Motown for a time - owned
by Emerson Lake & Palmer (!) I quite like Keith
Christmas but no way is it soul - a Smokey
Robinson song yes but that's as far as it goes

Pamela - possibly Cleveland

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.76 - 195.219.7.76) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 03:35 pm:

Talking of Kelly St. Clair,wasnt there a track by her on Musicmakers called Hear that beat?MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.224 - 67.25.176.224) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 04:21 pm:

I'm betting Double Soul is a Detroit label. One of the artist listed is Wash Allen. Wash was DJ who worked in Cleveland for a few years then moved on to I believe Detroit, but I may be wrong on this. Whereever he relocated to is probably the city where Double Soul was based.

Many upstart labels didn't put their addresses on the labels because they feared local radio stations wouldn't play their records. As if they didn't know anyway. They also feared jocks in a city like New York or Chicago would look on the label and see Peoria or Saginaw and toss it in the trash can.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26 - 193.122.21.26) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:36 am:

Mel,

I don't know the Grady label but the Four Aims
are not the group who became the Four Tops. The
Tops didn't record as the Four Aims.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.91 - 195.219.7.91) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 04:13 pm:

Davie,according to my information it says Four Aims aka The Four Tops on Grady records.And underneath it says,The Four Tops(Four Aims)and a full list of there sounds.Ranging from Hitsville Acetates,Chess,Riverside,Columbia,Chateau and on to there well known Motown material.So matey,someones amiss,somewhere.MEL.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.13 - 195.92.194.13) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 11:47 pm:

Thanks for all of your time & help guys, on a big project like this (listing all Detroit artists and labels ,with owners & address') it's possibly more important to ensure that incorrect info is excluded, rather than correct stuff included.
Flynny, thanks - the `Bari Track` is yours when I go toes up! Davie G, thanks too, we can call it square on the Bill Upchurch story you seemed interested in! I don't have any info on Horizon though. Re: the State label, I'm familiar with States but my scribbles are as follows - ` 5 Emeralds, later Downbeats, managed by Robert West, recorded on Peacock in '61 (1689 'You're So Fine/Some Day She'll Come Along) then Motown & then Ric Tic as Detroit Emeralds`. I know that the latter part conflicts with the Detroit Emeralds story (Tillmon Bros. etc) could they be the Flint Emeralds or Flaming Emeralds? Also Don Waller firmly connects the Motown Downbeats with the early Elgins....but that group too have a couple of grey gaps in their family tree. Re Keith Christmas, remember it was from a Martin Koppel list in the early 70's & ANYTHING from Detroit was cool!!
Mel, Just to conclude, I recently wents around to a small flat (apartment) in London, where a guy spends most of his time cutting records, emulating Mike Terry and when I mentioned the 4 Aims he calmly reached over his shoulder and pulled out a 78 on the Chateu label which read - `Delores Carol. Acc. by Maurice King & the Wolverines with the Four Tops on backing vocals`....Gulp! and to top it all, when he played it...there he was, Mike Terry, honking away! Double gulp......Slinked off home in the old Volvo realising that I know nothing. Keith

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.52 - 195.219.7.52) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 04:33 am:

Hey Keith,I Know of the Delores Carroll&Four Tops on Chateau(2002)called Everybody Knows.But it wasnt a 78,as far as I can recall.Mind you my mate who has, apart, from a healthy N/Soul/Rare Soul collection.A Superb collection of 78s(i.e.full set of Big Maybelle on Okeh 78s,as well as thousands more going on to first issues of items like,Earth Angel on London,Complete set of Drifters etc,etc,)so as its a while since I saw them,and it may well of been a 78.The first time I met my mate,many years ago,I had a record on and he reeled off the members singing and also each instrument they were playing.I wouldnt use the term connoisseur lightly,but this guy comes real close.But as you said above,theres always somebody who will blow you away regards areas not known to onesself.Nobody,AND I REPEAT,Nobody knows it all.cheers,MEL.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26 - 193.122.21.26) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 01:25 pm:

Keith,

I'll check this out later but as far as I can
remember the Five Emeralds, the Downbeats and the
Elgins all had the same core members.

The Flaming Emeralds were the Detroit Emeralds
road band. If I remember correctly the Detroit
Emeralds didn't record before RicTic.

The Flint Emeralds, as far as I know, have nothing to do with either the Five Emeralds or
the Flaming Emeralds. They were active around
1968 so they probably used the name to avoid
confusion with the Detroit Emeralds.

States was the sister label to United, owned by
Leonard Allen and based in Chicago. The labels
folded soon after Allen died - around 1958.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26 - 193.122.21.26) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

Mel,

Thanks for the info. - it's news to me about the
Grady disc. I knew about the Dolores Carroll
disc which I thought was their earliest appearance
on a record - it's from either '53 or '54.

I'll do a bit of digging and see what I can turn up.

By keith Rylatt (195.92.194.12 - 195.92.194.12) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:20 am:

Davie Thanks for that clarification. At the moment, in my project, I'm dealing with Ed Wingate and his dealings with Gordy. In late '66 I assume he sold everything to him except Ric Tic and the studios on West Davidson, which eventually did go in Sept '68. What I need to confirm is a/ His portfolio of labels in the fall of '66 will have been - A Go Go, Golden World, J & W, Ric Tic and Wingate. Anymore do you guys know? And b/ By '68 did he have majority interests in any more such as Drew or Impact. I have read that he had some interest in Revilot towards its end. Finally has anyone seen any documented proof that Leonard Reed launched Ric Tic?
Here's a little quiz question for you guys - Which Chicago soul record lyrics mention Jr Walker, the Sharpees, Little Esther, Lee Dorsey etc?? Thanks Keith

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.12 - 195.92.194.12) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:24 am:

Gulp. Just remembered Volkano was Ed's, anymore??
Keith

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.74 - 195.219.7.74) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:43 am:

Keith,The Downbeats,(aka)The Elgins,The Five Emeralds.The Downbeats recorded on V.I.P.(25029)Tamla(54026which is rare,and the easier one and same as the previous no. but on 54056)and also a Hitsville acetate.The Five Emeralds with two tracks that I know about on SRC(106)called Ill Beg and on SRC(107)called Darling.Not sure at this moment if they are 2 different discs or the A&B sides,will find out.MEL.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.51 - 195.219.7.51) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:13 pm:

Keith,theres The Elgins on Lummtone records and as far as I know are the same(but not 100% sure).If they are the tracks are Big City(112)and(113)your lonely ways.I am sure they are the same,its a good 10yrs since I saw the actual records and to my knowledge wasnt to keen on them.But at the time there were sounds coming thru a plenty,so might not of took a lot of interest at the time,but everything that I saw was always taped and logged,good or bad,for future reference.So it will be in my tape catalouges.MEL.

By dowoplady (24.46.200.124 - 24.46.200.124) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 01:25 am:

Mel and everyone...sorry to be such a pain, but the Elgins on Lummtone has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Detroit Elgins! The Lummtone group is a West Coast group who consisted of Jimmy Smith (lead) who was formerly with the Sixteens, Oscar McDonald (first tenor), Kenny Sinclair (second tenor, also formerly of the Sixteens, and then the Olympics whom he still sings with today), Darryl Lewis (baritone - also formerly of the Sixteens), William DeVase (bass), and various other members who came in later. The West Coast Elgins also recorded on Flip and later on on Double Shot. (But by then they were known as the Bagdads). For more info on the WEST COAST ELGINS, please visit our Harmony Haven site, and our Elgins page at:

http://members.aol.com/rnbtrain/NEW2.htm

Thank you.

In harmony,

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34 - 193.122.21.34) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 06:50 am:

Keith,

As far as I know Ed Wingate had nothing to do
with Impact - that was Harry Balk. It looks as if
Impact was set up when Balk's partnership with
Irving Micahnik (i.e. Embee Productions) ended
in late 64 or early '65.

Are you thinking there's a connection because
Harry Balk had another label called Volcano
while Ed Wingate had the earlier shortlived
Volkano label ? It's just coincidence - unless
somebody knows different.

As for Drew that appears to have been owned or
partly owned by Johnny Powers - there's no sign
of any Wingate involvement.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34 - 193.122.21.34) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 06:55 am:

Keith,

Back to Keith Christmas for a minute - he has
nothing to do with Detroit other than that Motown
distributed the Manticore label for a time.

Christmas is an English ex-folkie ( he had an
album on B&C) - I think he's from Kent.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.68 - 195.219.7.68) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:11 am:

Nikki,thanks for putting me straight regards the Lummtone Elgins,much appreciated.MEL.

By Keith Rylatt (195.166.70.10 - 195.166.70.10) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 06:39 am:

Davie G & Co Thanks for the info on Volkano & Volcano. What I need to know is did Wingate sell up most of his empire in '66 or '68? There seems to be a consensus that Ed sold 6 labels, A Go Go, GW, J&W, Ric Tic, Wingate & ???? In an old Soul Suvivor article by Reg Bartlette, he mentions Maltese, Did Ed buy this up?? Keith.

By David Meikle (213.122.138.144 - 213.122.138.144) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 07:32 am:

I have seen the following GW labels under GW advertising :-
Golden World/Ric-Tic/J&W/Wingate/Maltese/Volkano.

The only doubt about that is that the Maltese ad may have been for the Publishing Company rather than the record label.

Detroit City Limits said that Stephanye is another GW label and bits of that claim made sense.

Graham Finch said on this forum several months ago that A GO GO was not a GW label.

By David Meikle (213.122.138.144 - 213.122.138.144) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 07:36 am:

Also most of the empire went in September 1966.

The Ric-Tic label moved it's address to Ed Wingate's home on Edison at that date.

I think that was the only thing that survived the 1966 sell-off.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

Graham wrote this earlier
"Motown had bought Ed Wingate's studio, signed Edwin Starr and J J Barnes, and took over Wingate's catalogue of Myto publishing - in Sept 1966."


David's database finds GW/Stephanye/Maltese/Ric-Tic releasing records between Oct 66 and Jan 67, with Ric-Tic carrying on until Sept 68.

Myto continues to appear on Ric-Tic 45's thru to at least mid 68.

Ric-Tic publishing is mentioned on a number of 45's too.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.13 - 195.92.194.13) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 01:51 am:

Thanks David. Graham, have you any ideas about A Go Go? Looking at the label it seems to be in `the family` of that Solid Hitbound / GW / Groovesville circle, rather than say, Hanks. I'm sorry to say I've never seen one in the flesh, (and for those in the same boat) the photocopy in a Detroit City Limits mag that Flynny kindly loaned me, shows Myto Music. Wylie / Hestor as writers, Terry as arranger, a bandwagon prod. ZTSC 121125. Davie G. Does the production Co. signify anything? Thanks Keith

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.18 - 195.92.194.18) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 02:25 am:

Guys. Just got time for another question before I go to work - Could someone please give the following records a quick play and tell me if the backing tracks are similar or the same? -
GW 19 Reflections. Shabby little hut.
Golden Hit 101 James Barnes & Agents. Free at last
" " 103 Jock Mitchell & Fab Agents
Ric Tic 115 JJ Barnes. Don't bring me bad news.
J&W 1000 Stewart Aimes. King for a day.

Thanks in anticipation Keith

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.26 - 193.122.21.26) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 07:13 am:

Keith,

I've a feeling Bandwagon Productions was one
of Popcorn Wylie's companies - I'll try to remember to check my database to see if I've
anything else listed for them.

As for A Go Go, my instincts are that it's not
a Wingate label - possibly it was distributed
via RicTic (i.e using the same set of distributors) - the Magictones 1968 Mah's singles
show "distributed by RicTic" - so it may have been
the same sort of arrangement. I don't know this for certain - it's just a feeling.