By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.163 - 195.92.168.163) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:14 pm:

Can anyone shed any light on a couple of guys who were on these Marvelettes sessions please? - Russell Conway, trumpet, `Anything You Wanna Do` 23/July/64. Bob Cousar, trombone, `No Time For Tears` 26/Jan/65. John Wilson, trumpet & McKinley Jackson, trombone, `I'll Keep On Holding On` 5/April/65. and Don White, trombone & Floyd Jones, trumpet, `Danger Heartbreak` 31/May/65. I know that Lamont Dozier used McKinley's name as a pseudonym on a couple of ABC sides in '73/'74.
Thanks Keith

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:24 am:

McKinley Jackson was not a pseudonym for L.D. He was an arranger and a good one at that!!

By AH (63.188.33.36 - 63.188.33.36) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 07:10 am:

McKinley Jackson also led the band McKinley Jackson and the Politicians who recorded on Invictus or Hot Wax.

By keith Rylatt (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:15 pm:

Bobby E. Thanks, I generalised a bit there, Lamont D said that on `Trying To Hold On To My Woman` and `Fish Ain't Bitin``, both on ABC, he used McKinley, James Reddick, LD's brother and Bobby Perkins (session engineer) as writers although he'd written and produced 'em both, because he couldn't use his own name (1973/4). Thanks too AH, I have 'em listed but nothing further.
Keith

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 01:42 pm:

Keith
John Wilson is mentioned a couple of times in Joe Hunter's book, but no real detail.

I know that he played on "My Guy", "I like it like that" (Miracles), "You're my remedy" (Marvelettes).

Russell Conway played on "I like it like that", "What good am I without you" (Marvin & Kim), "Can I get a witness" (Marvin).

Info from Detroit City Limits Issue 3.

Here's a business card of John's I found in a junk shop.

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 02:16 pm:

I could be wrong about this but I've a feeling
Floyd Jones is the same guy who wrote and produced
for Dee Edwards ( he did the Cotillion albums )

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.16 - 195.92.194.16) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 04:53 am:

Thanks for this guys. I thought you might be interested in the following bits that I found in an old `Shout` magazine from 1973. Clive Richardson interviewed bass player Bill Upchurch who was backing the Supremes in London and also their MD Marvin Marshall.
Bill was recently in Paul Humphrey's Cool Aid Chemists but talks about the rhythm sections recorded at Motown in the mid 60s, "They did the complete rhythm section first using xylophones, vibes, electric piano etc. They would then get the artist to sing on top of that track alone because they tended to lay their harmony & voicing around the horns and strings if they were present. The artist put far more into the vocals that way and when the other sections were added later, the results were fantastic". Also he talked about dubbing in, "If a singer is going well but comes across a word they aren't familiar with it can break their flow and feeling, so the engineer would back track to let them hear the particular word and then punch them back in from there on".
Marvin joined Motown in '64 as a copyist where he was given 100's of tapes to listen to and then write them down for copyrighting.
He said that he was also under contract at the SVR studio which handled all of the `Lone Ranger` TV & movie production! "We had a small Jazz group when he was 14, playing trumpet along with Lilly Adams, piano. Floyd Julien, bass. Michael Milton, trombone. Michael Turner, tenor sax & Andrew Smith, drums". Do any of you guys stateside know these musicians? He said "they were good, doing TV in Canada and were approached by `Metromedia` and Motown but chose the later. Floyd Julian was drafted and replaced by Michael Henderson, who'd been playing with Miles Davis. Lilly went in as a copyist, Andrew as a session drummer, Henderson went to Stevie Wonder and he joined Bobby Taylor's Vancouvers." He said that the group were falling apart and so Motown had to send the Originals out with Bobby to do backing. Bobby was a member of Sly & Family Stone to start with, dating Sly's sister. He left and formed the Vancouvers. Marvin played on their LP. He said he then was Jimmy Ruffin's MD and later for Martha & Vadellas in '69. A final name was Curtis Kirk who was in the Supremes rhythm section for the UK tour, he played with Joe Liggins & Charles Brown in'55.
Guys on the forum, I have had a quick trawl through my various books, files etc and can't find any reference to either Bill Upchurch or Marvin Marshall. Marvin isn't mentioned in any Vancouvers line up (or early versions of, such as the Jives or Columbus Pharoahs) that I can see, anyone out there know anything??
Keith

By AH (63.188.33.72 - 63.188.33.72) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 10:42 am:

Keith, the Jives and the Columbus Pharoahs were groups Bobby Taylor was involved in before he ventured West and met the guys who would form the original lineup of Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers who went by other names before settling on that one. According to Tommy Chong the Vancouvers were fired while on the road by a prominent Motown producer/writer.

Andrew Smith played on many Motown sessions. Thanks for the Marvin Marshall info, he's a new name to me.

By bassland (64.169.106.134 - 64.169.106.134) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 11:42 am:

I had known the late Bill Upchurch just briefly as I replaced him in a band (Louis Thomas' Pieces of Eight) here in L.A. after he had a stroke (the complications from which he probably eventually passed-on). He was very supportive and I could tell he was definately old school. He had known Jamerson and he gave me much encouragement about my own bass playing.

BL

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.17 - 195.92.194.17) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 12:14 pm:

AH, thanks for that, I understand that Tommy Chong went on to be half of the comedy duo Cheech & Chong!
bassland, thanks too, I wonder if Dennis Coffey ever knew him as they both went out West then?

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 02:53 pm:

The "Lone Ranger" was produced in Special Recording Studios on Duffield. Special was owned by Fred Flowerday (as per advertising of the day).

Jack Checkaway owned SVR and operated out of Lathrop Village which is just North of Detroit.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.229.233 - 165.247.229.233) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 04:09 pm:

Hello Gang:

I met Bill Upchurch when he was here in Detroit via Andrew Smith, who I was very close with. (See his earlier threads.) We went to lunch together at a place on Woodward Ave. (Maverick's) that Andrew and I liked. He was very personable and funny as I remember.

Andrew was very much a member of the FUNKS and like the rest of the guys, was a fixture in the Detroit studio gang. He played on numerous sessions for all of the producers including Clay McMurray, Ollie McLaughlin, Don Davis as well as industrial, jingle and film sessions for Artie Fields, Al Yungton, Jack Brokenshaw among others.

I brought Andrew in on a country session at United for Jack Scott. Jack wanted him for the band after that!!! Andrew also used to sit in with Lanny Austin and Amel Moro's big band, the Austin-Moro Band. (Some of the FUNKS and many of the horn players played in that band.) Andrew and Butch Miles became friends via that band. Butch went off to play with the Basie Band in the 70's. I remember a dual drummer session at United with both of them for either Jack Brokenshaw or Artie Fields.

I don't remember Bill Upchurch playing on any sessions that I did though. Perhaps he was at the other studios then other than United and Artie's and here at AGS. Russ, Bob, Ken and the rest of the gang may be able to help you there. If he was a musical friend of Andrew's he was more than capable.

I just sent an e-mail to Charlie Banister, Andrew's drum teacher and also to his sister, who may be able to fill us in on the details of Andrew's "pre-studio" days and perhaps on Bill Upchurch.

Pax,
Ed Wolfrum

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 09:46 pm:

Ed & Co. Since asking you all about McKinley Jackson, I am noticing his name more, he seemed to do some work producing, for instance Connie Van Dyke on Wheelsville with Dale Warren. Keith

By P.J. (12.227.35.89 - 12.227.35.89) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:46 pm:

Bill Upchurch was part of the Temptations live band and is featured on both "Temptations Live"(Gordy 921) and "Live At the Copa" (Gordy 938). On the latter, Bill is mentioned first in the introduction of the band.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.229.233 - 165.247.229.233) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:33 am:

Hello Keith:

McKinley Jackson worked around town alot in the early to mid 70's. As I remember he did a lot of work with the HDH guys. The last time I work with him was on a session with Tony Newton on Bass at HDH some 25 years ago. He was extremely talented. I believe he had a group that was signed with one of the HDH labels. I wonder what ever happened to Tony Newton?

Ed

By David Meikle (213.122.75.24 - 213.122.75.24) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:59 am:

Ed

There's a pic of Tony Newton on the old forum with Bassland (Bob Lee).

Hopefully up and running soon.

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:13 pm:

Ed,

The band that Tony Newton was in was the Eighth
Day who recorded for Invictus ( two excellent
albums - their front man was the excellent Melvin
Davis)

The last I heard of Tony was when he was in a
band called G-Force with ex-members of bands
like Thin Lizzy ( if I remember rightly one of
them was guitarist Gary Moore )- this would have
benn in the early eighties.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.230.160 - 165.247.230.160) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 06:21 pm:

Hello Guys,

Thanks for the info. I think did some of the tracks on that 8th Day project. I remember Melvin Davis, the drummer also. Tony Newton was a wonderful bass palyer I might add, in fact I was quite impressed with the whole group. I hope many of those talented guys are still working.

Around the same time I remember recording tracks for a Dion Warwick project for HDH too. I wonder what happened to that project and if that ever was released? I forgot all about that stuff till now. It was just before the end of the HDH studio. Bob Dennis and Greg Riely were at HDH then, I believe.

Pax,
Ed

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Ed,

The HDH Dionne Warwick sessions were issued on
an album on Warner Brothers. I'll see if I can
track down some more info. on the album which
was titled "Just Being Myself" (or something
very similar)

Eighth Day were a great band but it looks as
if most of them dropped out of the music business
in the mid 70's after Invictus / Hot Wax collapsed. (There's a third Eighth Day album
on A&M but that's by a completely reconstituted
group who were basically the remnants of the old
Magictones who were the second version of the
Undisputed Truth)

Some Eighth Day trivia

Carol Stallings (their violinist)went on to join a band called Creation who had an alum on Atco around '74. Creation were led by Leon Patillo
who was in Santana for a time - the last I heard of him was that he was involved in Christian
inspirational music. Given that Eighth Day always had that thread running through their stuff
(like "The Good Book") I wouldn't be surprised
if Carol's also involved in that field

Bruce Nazarian went on to join Brownsville
Station then went into session work

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

Courtesy of Sequel and Howard Priestley

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.230.160 - 165.247.230.160) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 03:56 pm:

Hello Davie,

Thanks for the update (20 years later.) I should probably keep better track of even the little projects I worked on, but then I wouldn't have time to do projects.

Dennis and I were talking about that and we said there is no way any of us, the Funks, the Engineers ect. Can keep track of the projects as there were so many of them. If you added in the industrial films and commercial jingles and spot it gets scary!!!

I was looking around after the last post and I found a 7.5 ips of the tracks I did on the 8th day project. I should dump that to CD as its on back coated 206 and could gum up!!! Historically, good to save!!!

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.111 - 195.219.7.111) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 06:15 pm:

8th Day were,Melvin Davis(Lead),Tony Newton(Bass),Michael Anthony(Guitar),Carole Stallings(Vocals and Electric Violin),Anita Sherman(Vibes,Tambourine and Vocals),Bruce Nazarian(Guitar and Organ),Jerry Paul(General Percussion and Congas)and Lynn Harter.It Was on The Hot Wax Label that McKinley Jackson recorded for with the Politicians.MEL.

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:00 am:

Ed,

You just keep producing the music - we'll try to keep track of it :-)

God, unissued 8th Day stuff ! - PLEAAAASE transfer to it to CD to preserve it.

Incidentally just to save people spending cash
neddlessly there are a few singles and an album
on Kapp by a group called the 8th Day - this is
NOT the Invictus group - the Kapp group were
a white 2 man, 3 girl vocal group who were
produced by Ronnie Dante. There's also an
8th Day on Chess but I've yet to discover who
they were.

By AH (63.188.33.3 - 63.188.33.3) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:44 am:

Mel, the 8th Day was put together by HDH after "She's Not Just Another Woman" started to move up the charts. When Invictus released that record and credited it to the 8th Day the group didn't even exist. They pulled that track off 100 Proof Aged in Soul's debut Hotwax album. They used the name 8th Day because 100 Proof already had "Somebody's Been Sleeping" running up the charts. Steve Mancha is singing lead on "She's Not Just Another Woman." Melvin Davis was already signed to Invictus as a solo artist and was put into the pieced together group. Suddenly he was part of a group with a hit record. I hear the lineup changed a bit. Does anybody know if the musicians in the group played on their records? I don't believe they gigged much.

If "She's Not Just Another Woman" had flopped 8th Day's legacy would be similar to the Pirates(Temptations), or the Darnells (Marvelettes).

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.58 - 195.219.7.58) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:20 am:

AH,Hows it going mate,To be honest with you,I am not into stuff Like 8th day,anything past 1972ish I dont really bother with,dont get me wrong,I can appreciate a good record,but I Am more of a 4 beats to the bar kind of guy.Although my all time favourite artists are Bessie Smith,Big Maybelle,Esther Phillips and Howling Wolf.The reason I posted the item was because I Came across an article with the above chapter,as I had seen it mentioned,then I put it in.Your knowledge is truly spot on AH,I Have been following your items on the subject of artists etc.being ripped off.I Respect you for saying it like it is,no shite.Its no good stating half a story or what people want to hear.If the truth hurts,then thats to bad.Oh by the way,do you know who sang lead vocals with the Vibrations by any chance?Catch you later AH,(and one of these days,you wont catch me out.ho,ho.)MEL.

By AH (67.25.127.139 - 67.25.127.139) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:04 pm:

Thanks Mel,

The Vibrations, who began as the Jayhawks, lead singers were mainly Jimmy Johnson and Carl Fisher. Ricky Owens was with the Vibrations for a long time but was not an original member. Owens was with the Six Teens before the Vibrations. He didn't quit the Temptations, he was let go.

Many of Invictus/Hot Wax groups were slapped together as if they were puzzle pieces. The problem with this method is that when the recording deal sours the members, who have no attachment to each other, go their separate ways.

Chairmen of the Board regrouped, with the exception of Eddie Curtis, and are still performing, mainly in the Carolinas but there's nobody on the road doing Honey Cone, 100 Proof, 8th Day, or Glass House shows.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.37 - 195.219.7.37) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:52 pm:

As always AH,my hat is off to you sir,many thanks good buddy,MEL.

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.230.160 - 165.247.230.160) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:50 pm:

In the session I worked on at HDH, and this is a long tome ago, I remember, Tony Newton, Bruce, a female violinist who was so great I couldn't believe it, Melvin Davis and a percussionist. I don't know how much more was done as all I did was work on the tracks. But on the 4 sides that I recorded, the group was playing on the tracks.

What happened after that I can't tell you.

By AH (67.25.176.4 - 67.25.176.4) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 05:38 pm:

Ed,

I have to get a copy of their CD, I had an album and some 45s years ago. But the mentioned of the female violinist, an odd instrument for a funk/soul band, has peaked my interest; and if they played on their recordings that violin will be more noticeable on a CD.

Did anybody ever see them live?

The whole HDH entourage came to Cleveland once and it was a disaster. They promoted the show as Holland, Dozier, and Holland presents the Chairmen of the Board, Honey Cone, 100 Proof...and about 200, if that many, people came to the event, which was held in a large venue. I didn't go and can't remember whether the show went on or not; I do know that the promoter lost his shirt.

8th Day, 100 Proof and the Barrino Brothers--all HDH artists--sounded similar to me.

By John Lester (213.123.127.168 - 213.123.127.168) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 05:57 am:

I am SO pleased that mention has been made of one of my favourite non-Motown or Invictus albums of all time...Just Being Myself from Dionne Warwick (although strictly speaking it is still Invictus even though it was issued on Warner Brothers). Truly wonderful.

Dionne said some negative things about the album in an interview with Blues & Soul and I was so disappointed with her that I acted the fool and refused to listen to her again until.......Then Came You.

That HDH album is superb...recorded at HDH studios in Detroit and produced by Brian and Lamont with Ronald Dunbar and Popcorn Wylie..

The 45 of Just Being Myself is a different edit and very much in the vein of Love Factory, or so I thought. And if you like strings, you can do no better than grab a piece of I Think You Need Love or You Are The Heart Of Me. The Supes later covered a few of the songs from that album and did them really well, I thought. The classic track on that album has to be Don't Burn Your Bridges...

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.86 - 195.219.7.86) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 06:16 am:

AH,and John,to me The Chairman of the Board are o0ne of the best groups to have come around,at the moment I have Carolina Girls playing by them.Also theres not a lot anyone can say bad regards Honey Cone or Want Ads etc because the pedigree and experience of most of the members is second to none.Were talking of ex-Raelettes,ex-Iketteswomen,here as well as top notch vocalists like Mr.Mancha,Woods and The General as well as all the professional and experienced session men producers etc.Asthey say the cream always rises to the top.MEL.

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 06:47 am:

Hi Davie and everyone. You are right. We'll let you handle the details. You guys are amazing with the amount of detail you know about the music! I played on all of the HDH stuff at night after I did the Motown stuff during the day. McKinley was one of the arrangers. One note on trombonist Don White. I used to use Don on a lot of my sessions. He was a nice guy. Don is no longer with us. The last time I saw him was at Bongo's funeral. I was one of the pall bearers. After the funeral I went to a bar with Don and sax player Eli Fountain. Eli is also no longer with us. Dennis

By AH (63.188.32.229 - 63.188.32.229) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 06:48 am:

I agree Mel, I love their records too, but the Invictus/Hot Wax acts just never caught the public's fancy live. Only Chairmen of the Board, Freda Payne, the Honeycone, and to a lesser extent Glass House were really out there burning rubber on the chitlin' circuit.

People outside of Detroit think the Barrino Brothers was a high wire trapeze act that performed for Ringling Brothers.

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:08 pm:

AH,

You say "the Vibrations, who began as the Jayhawks" ... I have two questions.

Is that the Vibrations who did "My Girl Sloopy"(later recorded as "Hang On Sloopy" by the McCoys)?

Is that the Jayhawks who did "Stranded in the Jungle" back in the '50s (I was about 4-5 years old, going way back for that one!)?

- Gary Rosen

By AH (63.188.32.183 - 63.188.32.183) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

Yes to both.