By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.79 - 195.219.7.79) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:57 pm:

Many thanks to everyone who have contributed to the last two of my Facts items.Will appreciate any in-put with this item.1/The Debonairs featured Joyce Vincent as lead vocalist and Thelma Hopkins whom both later became members of the pop group Dawn.Thelma appeared in the science fiction movie,Trancers.2/Barbara Acklin was a secretary for the St.Lawrence label.In 1964 on there subsidary label,Special Agent,her debut single was released under the name of Barbara Allen.3/In 1959 Lou Rawls as a member of a group known as The Pilgrim Travellers,was involved in a serious car accident,which put him in a coma for 5 and a half days,resulting in him also losing his memory for 3 months.4/Lyn Roman better known as Linda Griner,sang gospel music with the Heavenly Brooklyn Stars.During this time she toured with Sam Cooke and Roy Hamilton,before attracting the attention of Smokey Robinson who then brought her to Motown.5/Freddie Scotts big break came when Chuck Jackson declined to record Gerry Goffins and Carole Kings Hey Girl.The Demo sat on the shelve for over a year before it finally hit the presses.6/The backing singers on Freddies Hey Girl were The Sweet Inspirations.7/Steve Mancha has recorded cover versions of Let Me Down Easy and Sweet Sherry.Altough never issued,they supposedly do exist in his possesion on a studio tape.And as with everything Mr.Mancha has done are just as good as the original artists recordings.8/The Steptones,who recorded Leave us Alone on The Big D record label,actually had Eddie Kendricks and David Ruffin(Who were supposedly moonligting from Motown)this is open to suggestions.9/Smokey Robinsons first recording was a cover version of Nolan Strong/Diabolos hit,Adios My Desert Love.10/(The superb)Marv Johnson first recorded in 1958 for Robert Wests label,Kudo whilst a member of The Junior Serenaders.Thats all for now,MEL.

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:33 pm:

Mel,

Linda Griner is actually better known as Lynn Roman. But as Linda Griner Smokey Robinson recorded a whole album on her. DJ copies were pressed and everything. But it never came out. Ms. Roman/Griner is still around, maybe she'll visited this board one day.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.49 - 195.219.7.49) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Cheers AH,Much appreciated.MEL.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

Lyn Roman - as in the "Stop I Don't Need No Sympathy" Lyn Roman ?

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 04:08 pm:

Probably Ritchie, Lynn Roman recorded before she did as Linda Griner on Motown, and after as Lynn Roman. She was one beautiful woman.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:07 pm:

Lyn Roman recorded "Stop I Don't Need No Sympathy" for the Brunswick label in 1973. It was a Carl Davis/Sonny Sanders/Willie Henderson collaboration.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:10 pm:

Hi Kev

Thanks - I vaguely remembered a black label, so Brunswick certainly rings a bell.

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:37 pm:

You guys are right it's Lyn with one n, which is an usual spelling for the female version of that name. Most females use two n(s).

She recorded the LP: The Many Faces of Lyn Roman on Columbia Records (1964). Also the albums--A Girl for All Reason and The Greatest Roman of Them All on Dot Records and the Ichiban album. And I always heard she made the odd single(s) prior to her 1963 Motown single as Linda Griner where the Miracles (uncredited) supply the backing vocals. The single(s) prior to Motown are probably under another name.

By Mark Speck (64.156.67.187 - 64.156.67.187) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:50 am:

Mel, #2 and 3 are both true items.

Barbara got involved with the St. Lawrence/Special Agent operation through her cousin Monk Higgins, who was a producer/arranger/artist for those labels.

Best,

Mark

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.51 - 195.219.7.51) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:01 am:

THANKS MARK,Now theres another good old name,Monk Higgins.MEL.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:37 pm:

Does anyone have any information on a single that was recorded by a group out of Cleveland(?) called the Occasions entitled "Baby Don't Go" b/w "There's No You" on the Big Jim label? "Baby Don't Go" is a haunting ballad with an Eddie Kendricks-type lead singer while the flipside is uptempo with a more gruff lead singer. The writing credits Bill Carter & Evans Woodson on the A side and just Woodson on the B-side while a Tom Baker arranged both sides. Plus, it looks like it may have been licensed from a label out of Cleveland called Way-Out Records. Any info regarding this lost soul gem would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
KevGo

By AH (67.25.176.135 - 67.25.176.135) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:58 pm:

The Occasions were a Cleveland group. The members, except for Evans Woodson who died a few years ago, are still alive. Big Jim Records was the football player Jim Brown's label. it was affiliated with Way Out Records.

Brown had a contract dispute with the Cleveland Browns after the record came out. He quit football and move to Los Angeles to make movies ending his association with the Occasions and Way Out Records. But not his thirst for music. He discovered a similar group in L.A. named Friends of Distinction and was the impetus behind their breakout hits: "Grazing In the Grass" and "Going In Circles."

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 11:17 am:

AH,
Thank you for the info regarding the Occasions. I should have known there was a connection with Jim Brown because the 45 had a football in the label logo with the number 32 in the middle (32 was Jim Brown's number). It's a shame this wonderful jem fell through the cracks. If the single was released a few years later when Brown had his BBC production company (the business that bankrolled the Friends of Distinction), it would have been a definite "slow jam" smash along with "Going In Circles."
Regards,
KevGo

By AH (67.25.176.213 - 67.25.176.213) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 11:26 am:

If the Cleveland Brown's had gave Jim Brown the raise he wanted Brown wouldn't have quit football and moved out to Los Angeles to make movies.

Lester Johnson (deceased) told me when I asked about Jim Brown involvement with Way Out Records years ago that Brown contributed $5,000.

Friends of Distinction's lineup was the same as the Occasions--two girls and two guys.

To my knowledge the Occasions only made that one record. They provided background vocals for another Way Out artist but that's pretty much all she wrote for them. I've never heard of any unreleased tracks or nothing they did after the Big Jim experience.

By Flynny (213.122.204.249 - 213.122.204.249) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:30 pm:

Carrying on with the Way Out label...here's the listing we've so far pieced togerther on the *soul-talk* group:
101-RUBY CARTER-Unlucky Girl / What About Me
103-BOBBY WADE-I'm In Love With You/Down Here On The Ground
104-JESSE FISHER-You're Not Loving A Beginner/Waiting
106-JESSE FISHER-Why/Little John
1000-SENSATIONS-Gotta Find Myself Another Girl/Lonely World
1001-SOUL NOTES-Don't Make Me Beg/How Long Will It Last
1003-SENSATIONS-Oh/I Guess That's Life
1004-FRED TOWLES & THE JACKSONIANS-Hook It To The Mule/Inst.
1005-SENSATIONS-It's A New Day/Two Can Make It
1006-SOUL NOTES-How Long Will It Last/I Got Everything I Need
1047-SENSATIONS-I Won't Be Hur/tGet On Up Mama
1051-SOUL NOTES-How Long Will It Last/Don't Make Me Bag
2005-SENSATIONS-Demanding Man/Gonna Step Aside
2699-SPRINGERS-I Know Why/I Know My Baby Loves Me
2799-SPRINGERS-LAST HEARTBREAK / WHY
5696-SPRINGERS-You Can Laugh/It's Been A Long Time
T4KM5948-SENSATIONS-Baby Baby Please/Too Shy
1966-VERNA & RAY-More Soul/I'm in love with you
*-note #1966 was arranged by Mike Terry and came out in '69.

Secondly, the Occasions on Big Jim is cat # 3273, and there's also a great disc by Bobby Wade on the same label called, "Flame in my heart" on #3275...hmmm...I wonder if there's a #3274?

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.59 - 195.219.7.59) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:40 pm:

Flynny,you old son of a gun,I Was just about to add Flame in my heart.Is this 1000mph or what,a bit too fast for my pins.In the same heartbusting and as equally insane speed as The C.O.DS, Fire (shes fire)on Kellmac (+combinations).Hand over the RedNBrowns.MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.119 - 67.25.176.119) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

Flynny, the Springers Records, though the catalog numbers are higher, came out before that Ruby Carter record and the rest that follows up to the Sensations' "Demanding Man."

The Springers' "I Know Why" was Wayout's biggest record it got them a gig at the Apollo. The only Wayout act to appear there.

There are some Ben Iverson & the Hornets' singles you left out, one in which, Lester Johnson sings with them.

Nobody has a clue as to where Fred Towles came from, or is now. Not even members of the Jacksonaires who became Lanier & Co. Towles cut another Way Out single called "Too Much Monkey Business."

Jesse Fisher (deceased) was a very soulful singer, his brother Richard sang with the Jive Five. Both came from the south, but Richard went to New York and Jesse settled in Cleveland where their mom lived.

Verna and Ray should be Verna and Rob (a husband and wife team).

The Sensations are a mystery too. Nobody I've talked to over the years really know where they came from. Two of the Sensations were pretty good songwriters.

There was another label affiliated with Way Out that released a single by I believe a Sammy Johns but I could have the name wrong. I'll have to dig out the 45.

By Mark Speck (65.56.62.178 - 65.56.62.178) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 01:02 am:

The Sammy Johns record came out on Genesis (or Jenesis).

John 'Soul' Smith mentioned in Soulful Kinda Music that Sojamm (which Jesse Fisher also recorded for) was affiliated with Way Out.

Best,

Mark

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:11 am:

Mark,

The Sammy Jones record was on Jenesis.

Sammy Johns is a different singer.

The Way Out label is a hard one to list in
correct order because of changes in distributor
and pressing plants. I'll try to post the correct order in the next few days

By AH (64.159.100.50 - 64.159.100.50) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:49 am:

Right Davie G, I have the Sammy Jones record, I just tried to recall the name at the top of my head and mistakenly said Sammy Johns. Sammy Jones is another one of Way Out singers, or who was affiliated with, that no one knows anything about. His single received few if any plays in Cleveland.

The Way Out artists who records were played significantly in Cleveland can be counted on your hand.

1. Three by the Sensations and not "Demanding Man," nobody here has ever heard the record unless they sought it out on Internet sites like I did.

2. The Occassions' "Baby Don't Go."

3. The Springers' "Why" and "I Know Why."

4. "I'm in Love With You," by Verna & Rob, and the remake by Bobby Wade

5. The Soul Notes' "Don't Make Me Beg For Your Love."

6. Ruby Carter & the Exceptional Three "What About Me."


The Springers recorded at Wayout long before the Sensations, the Soul Notes, Jessie Fisher, Verna & Rob, etc. Verna & Rob's "I'm In Love With You" came out before Bobby Wade's.

The release of the Sensations' "Gotta Find Myself Another Girl" began a brief association of Way Out and MGM Records.

None of the Wayout artists except for Ruby Carter and Bobby Wade were active around town singing in clubs. The Springers were but mainly sang at places in the Hough area where they lived like the Spaghetti Inn. If you were not from that neighborhood or knew somebody who was you didn't feel safe going there.

Lester Johnson use to moan all the time because he couldn't find gigs for his artists and they were constantly hanging around with sad/angry faces. When an artist hears his record on the radio, and cousins and acquaintances in different cities do too, they think somebody is making money and they should be too.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.91 - 195.219.7.91) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:24 pm:

The Sensations-Please,Baby Please-Way Out Records(5947).They also recorded on the following Labels.Argo(5405)/Junior(1002and 988).Theres a Sammy Jones that recorded on Mascot Records(711).Bobby Wade-Four Walls and One Window-Way Out Records(2001).MEL.

By AH (64.159.100.37 - 64.159.100.37) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 06:05 pm:

Wade's "Four Walls and Window" got a lot of play in Cleveland. Nice record. Ditto for "Please Baby Please," the Sensations' biggest record, which also came out on Delight Records by the Realistics (who I think are the Sensations).

Mel, I'm pretty sure the Sensations who recorded on Argo and Junior is a different group. They also recorded on Atlantic and were known as Yvonne Baker and the Sensations.

What record did the Sammy Jones on Mascot make?

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.119 - 195.219.7.119) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 09:01 pm:

AH,Hows it going mate,as usual many thanks for the input.Thanks to guys(&gals)like your good self,I am Learning all the time.Anyway,point 1/Sensations being The Realistics.Are we then assuming its the same Realistics that also recorded on Brunswick and Loma records?I agree on point 2/as Ive realised that on Argo its Y.Baker&The Sensations.And on Junior its The Sensations(988&1002)While on Junior(1010)as Ive now(thanks to you)realised,its Yvonne&The Sensations with a record that Ive known for years,the slightly inferior version(only my opinion)of Lorraine Chandlers Northern/Rare Soul classic,I Cant Change.Cheers for opening my eyes for me.Regards the Sammy Jones on Mascot records(711)it is called,Cinderella Jones.Later good buddy,in thanks,MEL.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.17 - 195.219.7.17) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 02:42 am:

AH,The Fred Towles you mention was on way out (1002.The Ruby Carter&The Exceptional Three was on Way Out(101).The Occassions on Big Jim(3273)isnt a bad record,as far as I remember.Have you heard the Bobby Wade on Big Jim?An absolute frantic,stomper on (3273.I first heard it a good 15yrs ago and even then it blew the walls apart.Great All-Nighter sound,not for the faint hearted.Theres a record by The Hornets on V.I.P.(25004)Shes my Baby/Give me a Kiss.And also a Hornets on The Columbia Label(42999)titled Fruitcake,are these the Hornets that you mention above but with Ben Iverson&Lester Johnson?MEL.

By AH (63.188.32.35 - 63.188.32.35) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 03:26 am:

Mel, The Hornets on VIP are an entirely different group than the Cleveland Hornets. The VIP Hornets was a white group with Johnny Powers.

Ben Iverson and the Hornets was basically a doo wop group. Lester Johnson only recorded with the Hornets on a Wayout Recording. Ironically, Ben Iverson didn't sing lead much at all.

The Bobby Wade Big Jim recording didn't get much, if any, air play in Cleveland. I can't recall ever hearing it. People here thought the only Big Jim recording was the Ocassions' record.

I think a deal was made with Delight to
put "Please Baby Please" by the Sensations out as by the Realistics for some reason. It's the same recording.

Wayout Records choice of recording artists was perplexing. They could sing but none, except for the Springers and Ruby Carter, were well known in Cleveland. The Ocassions maybe the youngest act they ever recorded and that wouldn't have happened if not for Jim Brown. "Baby Don't Go" was not Lester Johnson or Bill Branch's (Wayout owners)type of music.

The hot, popular talent in Cleveland was either ignored by Wayout or they ignored Wayout. Wayout recorded doo wop at first then switched to recording mainly southern type soul with some exceptions. Black radio in Cleveland ignored many of their recordings and the pop/rock stations ignored everything.

Why Wayout never recorded the hot, consistent night club acts like Leroy Smalley (who recorded on Golden World under a similar name), Jimmy Landers (a Detroiter who became a mainstay in Cleveland 'til this day), hot young Temptations like groups: the Precisions and the Puzzle People; the Sahibs or Crown Imperials, Kim Tolliver, Terri Bryant, Marvelous Ray, Edwin Starr & the Futuretones, and on and on is a mystery. The label was not really representative of homegrown Cleveland talent.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.107 - 195.219.7.107) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 07:35 am:

AH,Now youve mentioned some names that are most definatley known by me.The Precisions on Drew,The Puzzle People on Fatback,Kim Toliver on Castro,Terri Bryant on Verve,Marvelous Ray on Abner(and an awful record called Whirlpool),etc.As regards most of the other stuff,as you can see,Doo-Wop is not my priority.A Lot of the stuff you talk about I only know about as I have a vast tape collection covering mostly 30yrs on the northern/rare soul scene,but also a lot of sounds such as rnb,doo-wop,blues,etc.but not to much time has been spent on my tapes for a long while.But as everything is filed by name,title,label,I only have to scan a title that dosent ring a bell to me,until I Discover them in my tapes.And with this web-site,guys like yourself can put me right.Its bad enough trying to dig out the sounds I Know,but a lot of stuff seems to have been erased from my noggin over the years.Big,Big,boob regards the Hornets on V.I.P.See what I mean about trying to remember off the cuff.Anyway AH Thanks for bearing with me,MEL.

By AH (63.188.33.72 - 63.188.33.72) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 10:32 am:

Mel, the Precisions on Drew and the Puzzle People group you mentioned where different groups. The ones from Cleveland never recorded. The Cleveland Puzzle People did some background work in Los Angles when they relocated there for a minute but that's about it.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.119 - 195.219.7.119) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 01:16 pm:

AH,Thats it mate,my bleeding head is in a puzzle now,I think Ill just keep out of it and stick to what I know best.(and thats not much).I bet your having a good laugh,it used to be Chicago stuff that I would be mixing up,now its good old Cleveland.I Think all those all-nighters From over the years are finally catching up with me.Thanks for persevering with me mate,I shall now go for a Lie down.Later.MeatheadMel.

By AH (63.188.33.72 - 63.188.33.72) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 02:50 pm:

Mel, Clevelanders (even me) thought that an early Precisions' (the Detroit guys) record on D-Town Records entitled "You're Sweet" was the Cleveland group's first record. The Detroit group was unknown of in Cleveland when this record came out and everybody assume it was our Precisions with Kenny Redd singing the falsetto lead.

Puzzle People became a popular name for groups after the Temptations' album of the same name.

By Mark Speck (65.56.58.189 - 65.56.58.189) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 11:25 pm:

"You're Sweet" is great, but flip it over. "Mexican Love Song" is also something to behold.

Best,

Mark

By KevGo (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 11:43 pm:

KevGo here. Boy I must have tapped a big ol' nerve (but a good one) when I brought up the topic of BIg Jim/Way Out Records. Is there a compilation available covering this label's output (and no, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our brothers & sisters in the UK have done one already). Please advise.
Thanks!

By AH (63.188.32.203 - 63.188.32.203) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 12:57 am:

Mark, I played "Mexican Love Song" many times. The Precisions had a different sound on D-Town than Drew Records.

By Flynny (213.1.128.72 - 213.1.128.72) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:05 pm:

Sorry if I misled anyone by listing the label in numeric order.
Can anyone supply the label numbers and titles for the Ben Iverson & the Hornets 45's?
TIA.

By AH (64.159.100.106 - 64.159.100.106) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 04:17 pm:

How would you have known Flynny? The catalog numbers are deceiving. I know because I live here and heard the records as they were played on the radio here (some of them anyway).

If somebody doesn't beat me to it, I'll get you the Hornets info later.

By Davie G (213.18.222.34 - 213.18.222.34) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

Here's a rough dating guide for WayOut

1964 2699/70

1965 5696/97

1966 5945/46 and 5947/48

1968 1000 to 1003 (dist, by MGM)

1969 1004 to 1006 (dist. by MGM)

1970 2000 - 2006

1971 101 - 105

The early (64-66) numbers were pressed up by
RCA - the numbers were allocated by RCA's
custom pressing division which is why there's
no apparent logic to them ( the numerical
series was used for ALL of RCA's custom press
clients so any given batch of numbers could
cover a multitude of small labels)

The simplest way to figure out the year of
pressing is to go by the first part of the
matrix number (the TK4M part ..) The first
letter indicates the year of pressing

R = 1964 S = 1965 T = 1966 U = 1967 W = 1968

Hope that makes things a bit clearer

By Mark Speck (65.56.62.211 - 65.56.62.211) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 12:05 am:

I've also seen some Way Out 45s distributed by Atlantic/Atco (what labels WEREN'T distributed by Atco?)!

Best,

Mark

By STUBASS (206.135.204.2 - 206.135.204.2) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT DIDNT THE OCCASSIONS RECORD THE SONG..." IM A GIRL WATCHER "(WATCHIN GIRLS GO BY)?

By KevGo (12.84.106.91 - 12.84.106.91) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:59 pm:

STUBASS -
The group you are thinking of were called the O'Kaysions, a blue-eyed soul sextet from Texas who recorded "Girl Watcher" for ABC Records in 1968. The Occasions were a quartet (two men, two women) from Cleveland.
KevGo

By Mark Speck (64.156.67.191 - 64.156.67.191) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:40 pm:

Texas? I thought the O'Kaysions were from North Carolina.

Best,

Mark