By phillygroove (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 10:02 pm:

Like many fans, I just saw "The Temptations" movie again on VH-1. For those who knew Blue Franklin, was the depiction of him as a real sweetheart true as I assume it is ... and secondly, is it true that he passed on at his mother's home, or was that artistic license for the film?
He was truly a great, fondly remembered.

Jim

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 10:27 pm:

Artistic license at its best.
Even his illness was incorrectly depicted as he had intestinal problems and wore a colostomy bag.
I suppose the illness depicted in the film was a little easier to portray. He did infact have arthritis butitwas not his reason for passing

By Sue (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 11:11 pm:

Just like the artistic license Suzanne DePasse invoked, in having the movie filmed in Pittsburgh.

Did anyone else laugh when they saw the rolling hill in front of what was supposed to be Hitsville? The actors portraying the Temptations practically had to fall down it to get to the curb.

I'll have to watch again to see if they managed to get the Allegheny Mountains in the background.
Or maybe not.

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:40 am:

Melvin Franklin never was confined to a wheelchair, and he died in a hospital.


Yea....the Pittsburgh Hitsville looked so wrong, it made me laugh. It was way too wide, and you could tell the other Hitsville buildings wernt there/what they should've been. That and West Grand Blvd. was pretty narrow, cars parked along each side, with one small lane through the middle...yikes.

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:36 am:

Yeah, I was tripping over West Grand Blvd. being a sidestreet in the movie!

By John Lester (213.1.133.113 - 213.1.133.113) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:35 am:

Oh dear............what did you consider to be the high points of the TV movie then?


Are we all suggesting that Miss De Passe would not be the right person to handle similar projects?

By soulboy (213.105.224.5 - 213.105.224.5) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:53 am:

Like any film of this nature, it's gonna come under close scrutiny from fans. but i'm just glad they made the movie.
I think that it sell's the group in a positive light at least as far as the music is concerned.I just wish there were more film's like it, of the tops,miracles, supremes and all the others.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:32 am:

Apart from the artistic deviations from certain actual historical details, it's probably one of the better "true" biopics. Thank goodness the music was real and not recreated in a more "contemporary" vein. It was certainly more accurate when compared to similar movies such as The Buddy Holly Story, or (begging Marshall's pardon) La Bamba, where diabolical liberties were taken with the actual story.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:39 am:

I thought the movie made Norman Whitfield look like a Detroit pimp.He was very poorly represented in my opinion.It was obvious to me that the producers of the film were clueless regarding Norman and how he worked in the studio.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:47 am:

File under my "artistic deviations" category

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:11 am:

David Ruffin's three daughters filed a lawsuit over many issues in the film ...

By Common (209.2.55.113 - 209.2.55.113) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:29 am:

Hello everyone,

I've only seen the movie once & that was enough for me. Yes, the Ruffin family, as well as Melvin's mother & Otis' ex, who took exception to how they or their loved one were portrayed. It may have been one of the better biopics, but it also came at the expense of people's reputations. I look at it as just one person's perception. If the other members were alive, I'm sure you'd hear a different perspective all together. I, for, one would like to hear some of other perspectives instead of just hearing Otis' all the time. Also, I feel that if there any other Motown biopics, it should be produced by someone who could be objective & not been a part of the Motown hierarchy. Just my buck fifty! :o)

Peace!

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:41 am:

OK, folks - just to set the record straight, my comments above were in answer to John's question as to what were "the high points".

My reservations about the movie as a "fair and accurate" dramatisation of the story and the persons portrayed would fill a thread long enough to reach from here to Detroit, but I've no desire to waste the Forum's webspace trying to "prove" what most of us already agree upon.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:46 am:

If my memory serves me, there was a lawsuit filed by the Ruffin estate along with other Detroit-based folks against Motown Productions & Ms. DePasse on charges of character defamation in regards to the Temptations movie. What was the result of this lawsuit? Did all parties settle out of court?

By John Lester (62.49.61.57 - 62.49.61.57) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:26 am:

It was rumoured once upon a time that Miss De Passe would be working on the Supremes Story!

The mind boggles at the thought!

By phillysoulman (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

Regarding Norman Whitfield. In the mid eighties I had the pleasure of producing an album on Rose Royce in L.A.
When I first walked in the room I thought that they all saw a ghost because for a moment they thought that I was Norman!!
Sometimes I look as though I could be a light skinned Black Man, even a younger George Duke!!
Maybe I am a Black Man and was seperated at birth as I sure do feel like one. Somebody PLEEEAASE
pass the chitterlings, a bottle of hot sauce and a 40 ounce bottle of Olde Englise malt liquor!!!

By SisDetroit (67.25.221.77 - 67.25.221.77) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:39 pm:

Phillysoulman - I assure you looks are deceiving. What counts is "what's on the inside."

The movie, I was overjoyed that a movie was being made about my alltime favorite group, The (Classic) Temptations. I loved the music as I always have. It brought back lots of great memories. Towards the end, however, by then, my heart was broken. Not because of the sensationalism, but because of the outright lies, which too many people believe are true facts, and which will have damaging affect for all time.

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:51 pm:

Yes....what the movie portraed Ruffin as....was...horrible. Yes, there are those that think that ruffin was the worst thing to happen to the group, and was nothing more than a druggie. Granted it was based on Otis's book, but I think its been established that some passages in his book were a bit sensationalized.

That and the entire fact that it wasnt filmed in Detroit...and that it wasnt filmed (at least the exterior shots) at the real Hitsville really detracted from the movie. Overall it was a good movie, and was great to see the actors do a near exact representation of the Tempts from the looks, to the dancing

By Nabob (208.45.164.60 - 208.45.164.60) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:34 pm:

Did any one notice that the initial meeting of the Primes and the Primettes only included the three ladies who became the Supremes. What happened to the fourth who was a member of the group at the time?

We should all know better than to believe 100 percent in anything that comes out of Hollywood. Their objective is not to tell a story, but to make MONEY and maybe tell a story.

By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

If you ask me the actor who played Otis should have played Melvin and vice-versa, as far as physical resemblence goes.
What is Norman Whitfield doin' nowadays? Is he in Michigan or somewhere else? Think he could be lured back into the studio?
BTW, I hate chitterlings and malt liqour! :oD

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

Julian,
The last I heard Norman was in L.A. I'm not sure what he is doing though.

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:35 pm:

phillysoulman...I know you were attempting to be humorous with the comments about the chitterlings, hot sauce, and Olde English, but those stereotypes are not acceptable...try to use a bit more tact, o.k.?

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

R, "You Beat Me To the Punch."

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.154 - 136.1.1.154) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:50 pm:

Julian, I was about to post almost the same comment. I also thought D.B. Woodside, the actor who played Melvin Franklin, looked more like Otis Williams than Charles Malik Whitfield did.

When catching a bit of the VH1 broadcast yesterday, I also noticed for the first time that J. August Richards, the guy who plays "Gunn" on the TV show "Angel" was playing Richard Street. It's amazing how the absence or presence of hair can change one's appearance.

Regards,

By Ian W (213.122.31.146 - 213.122.31.146) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 04:34 pm:

Hey, I watched the film, enjoyed it and believed everything. But what do I know! Now you're gonna tell me that Johnnie Mae Matthews didn't click her fingers in frustration and shout 'damn' when she saw the Temps on TV.

ps. Quincy is great too!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 05:13 pm:

r,
Please accept this with the good intentions it is offered in. I assure you Phillysoulman, aka Bobby Eli, has never and would never disrespect anyone, black or white. His credentials are impeccable and he is held in the highest esteem here. Perhaps you misjudged his comments?

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:12 pm:

Another thing I noticed today...although trivial...was the baggines of the costumes.

Granted I havent seen the Tempts in the glory days, but from watching old movies, and seeing pictures, the pants and shirts we're pretty tight, indicitive of most male singing groups of the 60's. In the new movie, there was almost room to grow.

If were on people portraying likenesses in the movie, IMO The movie Smokey, and the real smokey were quite a bit off. Smokey is a big (stocky/tall guy) he seemed like a midget in the movie, and just didnt look right.

Yea yea...I have no life, which is why I have to pick apart movies based on fact ::sigh::

By Sue (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:18 pm:

Smokey big? Tall maybe but not "big" ...

By deborah (198.81.17.51 - 198.81.17.51) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:55 pm:

The focus was the temptations. The temptations were responsible for some of the most powerful
records to emerge from the Motown studios, during
the 60' & 70's. While they were undoubtedly fortunate in having excellent writers, perceptive producers, and the motown house band to work with, the voices of david ruffin, eddie kendricks and dennis edwards lifted the records into another dimension. All of the original temptations
are truly missed. But we at least still have
their wonderful music to enjoy amem. deborah

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

Ralph, I assure you that I can tell from phillysoulmans other postings on this forum that he has nothing but good intentions, and he has provided me with information that I could not get elsewhere, but here in the USA, we have had to endure portrayals which have been less than flattering, and some of our own youth have even promoted some of the negative sterotypes...the UK has always, in my opinion, been less concerned with differences and seems to overall have a lot of respect for contributions, regardless of the race of the contributer. The stereotypes used by phillysoulman happen to be distasteful to me, but I don't want to portray him as having an evil agenda, I just want him to be aware that what he said could be offensive to some. Hey, as a youth, I tried Olde English malt liquor, but I never tasted chitterlings. If he had said "watermelon", would it have been any different? I happen to enjoy lobter and prime rib...neither of which I eat with hot sauce. This forum is not about anything I just wrote...this is still a safe haven for soul/rb music lovers everywhere, and I welcome the phillymans usually excellent contributions.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 05:11 pm:

r,
I appreciate your comments. I suppose if you came from where Bobby and I have you would have not seem any problem with anything that was said. My partner Teddie Morrow is black and he calls me the Italian N------r from time to time. I'm flattered by his comments.I suppose my point is, you just have to really understand where we come from. Some may think us politically incorrect, but hell, we're just musicians.

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81 - 198.178.8.81) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 05:27 pm:

I had the pleasure working with the Temps for many years at Motown. Melvin was probably the greatest guy you would ever want to know. He was always on time, always in an up mood and a very hard worker. It was a real pleasure the countless hours I spent with the guys. As far as the movie went ... I cant help remembering what Alfred Hitcock said ..."It's only a Movie"

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

Thaks for that Ralph...I wish there was no reason to even talk about that, but this country has a lot of baggage that is hard to overcome. I have great friends of every descent, and we do have fun with each other all of the time. Those involved in music are usually the coolest people without any of the racist crap imbedded in their minds. You see, thats another great thing about this forum, people are here from all walks of life. I am 45 years old and grew up in So./Central Los Angeles, but my parents are from the brutal southern United States. I assume you and Bob are from Philly, probably from an even different era, but we are together because of the music...and thats cool!

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

So long as this forum doesnt turn bad like the other one...


I would personally like to see a Mini series about Smokey and the Miracles. It seems taht there wasnt as much personal turmoil within the group, and Ronnie White and Smokey helped write most of my all time favorite smokey songs, as well as for other motown artists. (I met Ron White before he passed on, and he too was a great guy)

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

R,
Bobby is from Philly and I came out of Detroit. I feel fortunate that I've been a musician all my life and have never really harbored any racial hang-ups. If any judging tooK place it had to do with musical ability and not the color of ones skin.

By REalph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:57 pm:

Also....regarding my brother's comments about the Temptations. Very few at Motown knew them better than Russ so that should put the movie in proper perspective. I remember Melvin got a Jaguar XJ 6 when they were first introduced in the States and he invited me to go for a drive around downtown Detroit with him. We had a great time. He really was a great guy.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 12:00 pm:

I never knew them outside the studio but I totally agree about Melvin being unforgettably wonderful to work with. I also never experienced the side of David that was depicted in the movie and can understand his family's concern.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.7 - 195.219.7.7) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:09 pm:

Mr.Russ Terrana,its good to talk to you,regards your item above,The Temptations,we all know just how great they have remained all over the years and with all there legendary various artists replacing one and being as good if not better than the guys that left.But can you tell me anything,if possible,about Eldridge Bryant who was the original lead singer(if Im not mistaken)before being replaced by the superb David Ruffin.He seems to of been forgotten.Cheers,MEL.

By Lynn Bruce (64.233.239.143 - 64.233.239.143) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:18 pm:

Racist? Insulting?Maybe to non Detroit musicians.In most of the groups I worked with,especialy Bobby Martin & the Martiniques,we would run the dozens on each other all night long.The filthier and the most insulting things you could could think of about that persons mama,the funnier it got.Most of us would write things down in the day time to throw at someone at the gig.The first time I tried that on my day job,you would have thought I insulted the Pope.Musicians are a loose irreverent group on the whole and we love to run the dozens on each other (at least in Detroit).Racist,no,trying to be funny,hell yea!!
Talking about your mama,did you know the last time I was over your house your mama came running out of the house with a mattress on her back yelling CURB SERVICE!!!!

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.84 - 195.219.7.84) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Well Said that Lady,Detroit sounds a whole like Liverpool,LYNN.We do exactly the same,rip into one another.The coloured guys are the same.All a pisstake.fun,no racist remarks,all wind up merchants.As my mamma came out the house she had a mattress on her back,a till on her chest and a pair of elasticated draws.Lifes to short Baby.MEL.

By Larry (216.23.183.2 - 216.23.183.2) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 03:23 pm:

Lynn,
The term "run the dozens" is new to me. I like it! Where did it come from?

..."Curb Service"... Lololol

By AH (67.25.176.119 - 67.25.176.119) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

"playing the dozens" means talking/joking about anothers mother, but I have no clue as to where the term "dozens" come from and would like to know too. Does anybody know?

By John Lester (62.49.61.57 - 62.49.61.57) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

The elusive Russ comes on line and I miss him yet again!!

One of these days I am gonna corner that man and he ain;t gonna get free until he's answered my questions.

LOL!

By Larry (216.23.183.2 - 216.23.183.2) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 03:45 pm:

So, "the dozens" is specific to one's mother.
That's a gas. That there's a word for raggin' on someone's mother. Lololol...
Life is rich isn't it.
Question:
Can you play the dozen's on your own mother??

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101 - 136.1.1.101) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:00 pm:

Alright, if you Brits want us to explain the origins of "playing the dozens" (which is essentially teasing/taunting - not necessarily limited to the subject of someone's family or mother), you will have to agree to provide an etymological breakdown of "taking the piss" LOL!

Regards,

Ken

By Vonnie (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:02 pm:

R,

There is and never will be a more wonderful and non-color person than Bobby Eli. How do I know? I have known Bobby since I was 16 years old. He was my 1st boyfriend and I was his 1st girlfriend. In north philadelphia where Bobby grew up, he never knew color. His remarks were the same remarks that I make to him. I am an African-American and I am his fiancee. His 1st wife who died was also an African-American. Bobby has always been an African-American, Jewish, Italian, Hispanic, Latvian etc...person. He is and will continue to be color blind. And I will always love him.

Vonnie

By Larry (216.23.183.2 - 216.23.183.2) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:28 pm:

Ken,
"Taking the Piss" refers to the 'handoff' of fresh-squeezed (I can't believe me I'm submitting this post) urine sample between the "pissee" and the underpaid medical assistant. Least that's the Southfield, Mich interpretation.

So, I can play the dozens on an Uncle and 3rd cousin as well someone's momma?

By SisDetroit (67.25.220.235 - 67.25.220.235) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:41 pm:

Bob - Neither did I see that side of David which is so prevalent in the movie and in other writings. I saw David and talked to him on numerous occasions. After my adult son saw the Temptations movie, he made a silly remark. He said "I can't stand David." I was shocked. He based his dislike from the movie. I got on his case and reminded him of the David we knew. I just can't understand what was so horrible about David in the public's eyes other than what he did to himself.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.18 - 195.219.7.18) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:53 pm:

Taking the Piss.Is an expression that means that you are winding somebody up,making fun of something or someone in a jovial,humorous way.That is the Liverpool and as far as i know,the Limey way.THERE,a prime example,I Just took the piss out of myself and where I Come from.MEL(MASTERPISSTAKER).

By John Lester (62.49.61.57 - 62.49.61.57) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:55 pm:

As a Londoner, I have say that I would not want my American cousins to know what it means by that terminology.....

If someone says you are taking the mick (or the mikey or the michael), it simply means to make light fun of something. That other word has a somewhat derogatory implication to it as though somebody is being made to look unkindly stupid.......and it tends to come with a five knuckle sandwich!!!

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.18 - 195.219.7.18) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:59 pm:

All in harmless fun John,I didnt mean it literally.Its all getting a bit heavy now.MEL.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 04:59 pm:

Unfortunately, the general public tend to believe what they see on the screen, and often can't differentiate between dramatic reconstruction, fiction and fact.

When I worked on a TV drama series, one of the members of the cast arrived for rehearsals with a black eye. He was a well-spoken and sensitive young actor who happened to play a surly, delinquent teenager. Nursing his eye, he explained he had been quietly shopping in a supermarket when a woman recognised him, ran up to him and whacked him across the face with her handbag. She snorted "that's for being so nasty to your mother!" and walked off.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101 - 136.1.1.101) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 05:07 pm:

Knock your self out, Larry.

You could even "play the dozens" on the person you are talking to and leave their family out of the picture!

As for Mr. Eli's post above, I sort of assumed that he was passing down some of the advice on "one hour urbanizing" himself that he had been receiving his whole career from various piss-taking dozens-playing co-workers.

Regards,
Ken

By AH (67.25.176.163 - 67.25.176.163) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

LOL, you aren't playing the dozens until you talk about someone's mother, nobody cares if you rag on their cousin or uncle.

Nobody gets mad when you say...Yo Cousin, Yo Uncle, or Yo Aunt...but if you say Yo Mama the wrong way it's a fight.

Grandmothers are included in the dozens too, but you have to tread carefully when you talk about somebody's grandmother, for the grand old lady might well have passed. Then you have to apologize by saying "I didn't know."

Nobody gets that upset if you talked about their fathers either, even if they're dead. There are no "Yo Father" jokes like there are "Yo Mama" jokes.

By Ceasar Romero (195.219.7.13 - 195.219.7.13) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 06:02 pm:

John Lester,wise up and get a life.Typical cockney no sense of humour.The Joker.

By SisDetroit (67.25.220.235 - 67.25.220.235) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 06:10 pm:

Ritchie - that was funny. I love it.
Sis

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 06:32 pm:

John Lester,
Where have you been?? I was just thinking of you today and was going to post an alert as to your where- abouts. Good to see you pal.
As for my brother----what can I say. You have to be quick. He's rather elusive.

By Common (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 10:58 pm:

BTW, does anyone know what happened to Paul Williams' family? What did they think about the miniseries? Does anyone know where they might be?

Peace!

By LadyEli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 01:21 am:

There are many people who claim to know David. There are many people who have a hurtful agenda when they talk about David. I knew David from the 70's until his passing. Not once did he treat me with disrespect! David only became angry with people when they degraded him or took his feelings for granted.

When one early friend of David's talked about their relationship, every other word out of her mouth was what he did wrong and how he treated her so bad, There is a thin line between love and hate. Love waxes cold after the ugly out weighs the beauty!

David was a sensitive man, and some people saw that as weakness. He was not weak or stupid as one said! In fact, he was brilliant and loved complete! David was not perfect, no one is, but in my opinion, David had one major problem brought on by early mentors. He fell to the drugs they introduced to him! I HOPE AND pray they remember THEIR part in destroying this wonderful talent!

By LadyEli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 01:41 am:

To the musicians and friends of David, thank you for your post in honoring him!

GOD bless all of you!

By John Lester (213.122.200.123 - 213.122.200.123) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:01 am:

Ralph

I have been away in the North of England, being made welcome by many of the guys up there. Manchester is a real nice place - you ought to make a visit there sometime.

Mel

I responded to the post about taking the piss without seeing your posting of a few minutes earlier. I freely admit that, as the years pass, I find that I am becoming a bit of a prude. However, I can still enjoy a joke like the rest.

I make no comment to your other post......disguised under a pseudonym of Ceaser "The Joker" Romero.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.78 - 195.219.7.78) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:06 am:

JOHN,just a slight dig mate,I hope you dont take it to heart.Anyway I dont want to fall out with you as I Respect you and your Knowledge 100%I Have read articles youve done over the years and I hope this wont cause some kind of rift between us,take it easy,Ceaser Romeros Mate,MEL.

By John Lester (213.1.129.248 - 213.1.129.248) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Mel

Thank you.

By Detroit Stylin (207.74.196.20 - 207.74.196.20) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 02:24 pm:

I didn't think that this post was still going on....after I took a tour of the Hitsville museum a few weeks ago, I was surprised to find out that there were so many inaccuracies in the movie. There was one especially puzzling factor that I have found the truth to yet.....did Paul commit suicide on Belle Isle like I heard so many in my family say? Or what was the story behind that. There were several surrounding his death. And next to David I think that Paul was the next best voice in the group but David was the signature Tempts voice.

By Vickie (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 11:37 pm:

This has been a most interesting thread..WOW..
In reference to the movie, Did anyone notice the mis-spelling of Tammi Terrell's name in the credits? It was spelled Tammi Tyrell.....(sad)

Vickie

By Clay McMurray (66.73.180.204 - 66.73.180.204) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 07:45 am:

Hi Folks,
I had the pleasure of working with David as a solo
artist and when he was with the Temps and I must clear the air in saying that each and everyone of the Temps were really an imazing bunch of guys. I recorded their Classic Xmas album and never had any trouble with anyone in or out of the studio. In working with David as a solo artist he was always a gentleman and a professional who really had a heart of gold,but carried the burden that destroys so many Entertainers, he became Famous and no one can imagine what that's like if you've never had it happen to you. Fame brings more than money and fans
it brings DEMONS that show up when you least expect
them and most high profile entertainers don't know
and can't handle it,so they try to find refuge in
many different ways, look at James Dean, Marilyn
Monroe, Elvis Presley, John Lennon,Kurt Cobain,John
Denver, John Bonham, Clark Gable,Montgomery Cliff,
Jean Harlow to name a few. They were all given fame that eventually destroyed them and David Ruffin was
not any different, nor Marvin Gaye, Florence Chapman(Supemes)Phillipe Wynne,Phyllis Hyman,Sam Cooke, Otis Redding and more. If they all had never become famous they might all still be ALIVE today.
Center Stage may look good from your front row seat
but it's Serious under the lights. Don't be so easy to judge people you never really knew. Peace.

By SisDetroit (67.26.15.160 - 67.26.15.160) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 12:07 pm:

Thank you CLAY. Drugs have destroyed so many lives. But you are very correct about DAVID ALWAYS A GENTELMAN AND A PROFESSIONAL. He was that way everytime I saw him. And I dont't work in the musical field. He was gentle and soft spoken to my family every time.
Sis

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 01:55 pm:

No offense to david ruffin, who was a great singer, but I personally enjoyed the songs in wihch Paul sang lead.

To me, he put more heart and soul into his performances, and was able to do things with his voice which David couldnt. (for instance, listen to the live version of Dont Look Back..too powerful for words)

Another sad musician story was that of Del Shannon also from Michigan.

I've always thought that Paul Williams commited suicide at Fourteenth and West Grand, about a half mile from the Hitsville bldg.

By LadyEli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 09:43 pm:

Clay:
Thank you so much for telling it like it was! I am so glad there are people like you that did not bend to the rumors! You Mr.McMurray are a gentleman who knew a gentleman!

GOD bless,

By Paulie 3 Shoes (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 12:20 am:

Paulie over here,

I jus wanna say dat dat Eli guy is one helluva stand up guy..even when he is sittin' down..
anyways you know what I mean guise.


Paulie..(over here)

By KevGo (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 12:29 am:

To Clay McMurray:
Thank you so much for your comments regarding David Ruffin and the "other side of the spotlight." Having a brother who is an actor, I've seen what even a little bit of success can do and undo a person. David Ruffin, Paul Williams, Florence Ballard Chapman and others you've mentioned all found fame yet whatever demons they had ate at their heart & core. Let's hope and pray that the young 'uns who are out there today recognize what happens when the "bling-bling" gets out of control. As for the Temptations movie, I have to quote a college professor of mine who would say "They didn't do this with us in mind." Ms. DePasse made this movie for one reason - to entertain and make a profit. Believe me, my music colleagues and myself went ballistic over the artistic liberties (especially when I say my parents' old neighborhood in Pittsburgh being used for exteriors - I don't blame Detroiters for being upset). Yet this movie was made for the general population that love the music and want a little drama and, sadly, not for those who know the truth (never mind the ratings that would drive ad revenue for the network and justify the existence and sales of the home video or DVD). It would take a VH-1 "Legends" or Behind The Music (or God forbid the E! True Hollywood Story) for any semblance of the truth to be brought out.
Peace,
KevGo

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 06:17 am:

Vickie - well spotted with those credits. You should work in the movies!

As for Mr David Ruffin, the utmost respect. He and Jimmy are welcome to sing anytime for me in my home, as indeed any of The Temptations are in whatever line up. The name 'Temptations' to me means quality, whether a hit record from 1965 or their latest CD I got for Christmas. Their vocal performance is wonderful and I just wish today�s young singers would use these same techniques to sing to us. I am so cheesed off hearing manipulated vocals to 'correct' poor singers and for 'effect'. As for the politics, they and other issues will exist, for all those in the public eye. For me, what comes out the speakers is of the highest importance followed by my interest for reasonable trivia that surrounds my favourite styles of music and singers. We had guests at the weekend to stay. I asked what they wanted to listen to music wise. I was asked to play Marvin Gaye by this 28 year old. I played the �What�s going on?� album. She sat, at 0100hrs reading the sleeve notes (Harry/John) of the special edition box set recommended to me. She was enthralled by something 30 years old and learning more about the Motown sound. We are so lucky.

Mr Clay McMurray - I would like to ask you a question off line on a personal level. Are you in a position to email me and I will reply with my question? Thank you

By Common (209.2.55.113 - 209.2.55.113) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 09:36 am:

Hello Everyone,

Thank you Clay & LadyEli for giving another perspective about David. We, as the public, don't know what's happening in the lives of these people, unless we know them personally. All we know is the rumors & the gossip and tend to believe that it is the gospel truth. The way some folks tell it, you would swear that only David had a drug problem as if no one else had to deal with such a demon. I agree that we shouldn't judge people that we don't know.

Peace!

By Paulie 3 Shoes (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:46 am:

Hey its Paulie over here! Who is dis Lady Eli any relation to my paison Bobby Eli?
Where is she from?
Morrone, I am so konfused.

By LadyEli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 12:56 pm:

((((((((Common)))))))))

Thank you!

By LadyEli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:00 pm:

Paulie,

No I am not related to Bobby Eli...

By Vickie (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 11:20 pm:

Hey All,
Since I have to cover David Ruffin in this book about Tammi and since I am going for the positive story about Tammi, her life, and her music, I was able to pull from my intrerviews with their colleagues nice things about David..he was charming and funny. Being in show business myself and being around celebs all the time..one must separate the person from the entertainer. The issues a person has are often much different than the issues an entertainer has...I commend Clay and others who speak the good a postive about their friend and colleague. I am sifting through the rumor mill to find what is true and good and believe me a rumor can stay for a very long time, repeat it for a few decades and people will think that is what the truth is..

Being a fan of Motown and all the greats that we dicuss here, I just wanted to add my 2-cents...

Vickie
TammiProject@aol.com

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 11:56 am:

Just to be clear, Clay IS NOT just leaving out the "bad," there simply wasn't much. Motown was a TEAM effort and people with serious ego handicaps never got far enough for the public to even become aware of them. I have NEVER heard an ugly rumor about anything at Motown that I actually knew the facts about that was true.

"Authentic, anti-establishment" has long been one of the most powerful images used to promote new artists. This image has always been a total fabrication of reality. The "music press" is full of frustrated wannabees who write negative fiction slamming anybody who has ever been at all successful. I saw the same kind of garbage printed about the San Francisco rock scene. There is rarely any reason to "spin" a positive view because most of the negative will generally turn out to be a misrepresentation.

By Vickie (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:22 pm:

Good perspectives Bob..

I worked in PR for many years and whatever is put out is what "they" believe....If another view is put out there "they" have a hard time changing their opinion....

Vickie

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:47 pm:

Vickie,

Thank God for people like you who really care!

At Motown I certainly believed many negative rumors myself only to learn the truth years later.

By AH (64.159.100.153 - 64.159.100.153) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:54 pm:

Bob

I have to disagree with much of what you wrote. There's a good and a bad side to most any situation. You act as if Motown was full of Mr. and Mrs. Goody Two Shoes who never did a bad thing in their lives. This is far from being the truth with Motown or any other prominent recording company.

The truth is most of the really bad stuff about Motown and other companies hasn't come out in print for various reasons: people are afraid of lawsuits, some of the parties are still alive and people are afraid of them, etc.

Some of your biggest recording companies were controlled by factions of organize crime--this isn't fiction, it's fact. And I'm not talking about Motown in this instance.

With the advent of Internet, public records--criminal and civl--can be accessed rather easily. So convictions for drug addiction, possessing drugs, selling drugs, robbery, murder, divorces, home foreclosures, etc. when written about by writers are hardly fabrications. You can look up and verify just about anything on anybody.

The stuff Bobby Eli talks about is from personal experience. I've seen horrible acts perpetrated on others at recording companies that I will only speak about in private. Not to mention the problem artists have had with promoters that will make a wonderful book.

It's misleading for young people entering the business for some to continue with this Penny Lane style of adulation of the recording industry. They should be made aware of the pitfalls and the dangers that lurk if they seek this avenue as a career choice.

The bottom line is recording artists, writers, producers, musicians, arrangers, and others are people who do things that people do. Just because you can sing, write a song, or produce an album doesn't mean you're incapable of being less than a pristine individual. The assumption itself is ridiculous.

Afican-American writers like myself know many of these artists, musicians, etc. better than a suburban dweller would because though some had hit records most never made much money and their living mode rarely changed. They still lived in the African American communities, shop at the neighborhood stores, hung out at the bars, barbershops, pool rooms, etc. We don't have to write fiction about them we do have to curb and not write many things that we do know. Few us will look good if scrutinized under a microscope and talented people are no exception.

The reasons most books about recording artists don't sell well, and many can't even get book deals with the major publishers, is because most are boring. The true story is rarely told and a whole book of press release type worshipping doesn't cut the mustard.

By Vickie (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Bob,
Thank God for people like you who where there
and can tell people like me what the truth really was and what was fabircated rumors....With talking to many people and doing so many interviews and follwing a timeline, you can see where a rumor stems from and how it became so distorted over the years...Dates back up the truth...

Vickie

By Music FAn (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:21 pm:

Billy Joel said it best..

"If the devil went into show biz he'd be in the music industry"

By AH (64.159.100.153 - 64.159.100.153) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:43 pm:

Music Fan, it's sad but some people just don't want to know the truth. It would destroy their illusions.

James Brown and the members of his entourage when Tammi sang with them would be good sources to learn a little about Tammi, Vickie--they were there. How about Ashford & Simpson they knew Tammi from Wand Records and Motown? Otis Williams would be another good source--he was there. Many people were there. Have you talked to Johnny Bristol or Harvey Fuqua--they're around? Who were her close friends? People often have different personas when in a recording studio than when they're out and about.

By Vickie (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

Yep talked to them all,
Except for Harvey & James

Vickie

By AH (67.25.177.204 - 67.25.177.204) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 04:01 pm:

Vickie, I'll look forward to an interesting book on Tammi. Did you gathered much info about her childhood and teen years? pictures? I've never seen a real young pic of Tammi. If you got one post it, tease us until the book comes out.

By Vickie (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 04:05 pm:

AH,
Tammi's family is contributing to that portion of the book. Her sister Ludie has filled in many things from childhood and has lots of photos..
It's a nice Bio on Tammi -a complete history of her short life.

We still have a ways to go , but we are getting there..

Vickie
TammiProject@aol.com

By JR (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 11:54 pm:

How many of you have read "DELIVER US FROM TEMPTATION" by Tony Turner? This is a great view of someone who was there. Yet he was threatened physically if he went on with a movie deal. Record companies do indeed have power! It is not
all glam and glory! Search for this book, it was honest in showing the demons, though not always pretty!

By AH (67.25.176.81 - 67.25.176.81) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 12:35 am:

JR, I have two Tony Turner books, the one he did on the Tempts and the one he did on the Supremes. The Supremes book is better because he was actually working the original group. The Temptations' book is mainly his involvement when Eddie Kendricks, Dennis Edwards and David Ruffin were singng together.

Believe it or not the Supremes and the Temptations had it easy compared to some groups, at least they made some significant money. Most recording artists never made one penny from their recordings.

I want to read a book on the Intruders by its only surviving member Phil Terry detailing their musical journey. I wanna know why at the height of their career Little Sonny had to take a job selling insurance to pay the bills. With all the money Eddie Kendricks made why was he working for an airline in an airport. Junior Walker was living in a trailer on his sister's property when he died (or that's how the story goes). When Mary Wells, David Ruffin and other soul luminaries passed collections had to be taken to bury them, and in Mary's case pay for hospital care. Why? Where's the money these recording artists are suppose to be making from records and songs they've written? Why is Lauryn Hill still living with her parents in the same house she resided in before she got "famous"? Ditto for Foxy Brown?

How come I hear artist after artist tell me that not only have they never received a royalty check but they never even gotten a royalty statement?

Why aren't the people who claim to love these artists so much doing anything to see that they are compensated for their recordings that are being released on CDs on a daily basis?

Admiring and stroking some one is nice, it makes them feel good for a minute, but it doesn't pay the bills or feed the face. Is it any wonder that so many ex recording artists, writers, and musicians become soured and embittered.

Wouldn't you be if you knew people have made millions off you and you're still living in the ghetto struggling; or at best, found a decent job and worked 9 to 5, blocking out the recording experience, only to have it slap you in the face again with compilation and best of CDs dropping on the market 30 and 40 years after the fact and you're still not getting paid? And grandkids, nieces and nephews asking why aren't you rich?

To many of these artists and writers a $50 or $100 check every now and then would be a godsend.

But JR, nobody wants to talk about this subject.

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 02:19 am:

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't even KNOW Mr. Eli super-well, but I can say that he's a very dear person and super-far from racist.

BTW, I THINK I remember you being ill at one point Mr. Eli, I hope you are doing much better, and I should probably shoot off an e-mail to you or something.

And as for the Tempts movie... I'm glad they are of enough stature that they warrant a movie, but what a misrepresentation.

NISH

By SK (195.18.123.98 - 195.18.123.98) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 07:34 am:

AH, I think you wrote a very good posting about the way artists are being treated by the record companies.
Why don't you put your posting at the Motown bulletin board. Maybe some Motown offical will respond...(They do respond to complaints/opinions there)
http://boards.motown.com/

By Motown Fan (195.92.194.11 - 195.92.194.11) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:22 am:

Another example of being used and abused -

http://www.billygriffin2001.com/home.html

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 05:27 pm:

RE: Beating a dead horse. The point seems to have been missed by all. Mr. Eli's credentials, character, the fact of whether or not he's a good person, the fact of whether or not he desrves to be loved, etc. was NEVER questioned by anyone. I will take everyone's word on those issues, which I was never concerned about. I don't know him, but I do know that he is responsible for some of the nicest guitar licks affiliated with "The Sound Of Philadelphia", if he had anything to do with "For The Love Of Money","Love Train", etc. The point was and is that regardless of how much you love a person, the playful banter between you and that person isn't appropriate for public airing if it contains negative stereotypes such as Blacks portrayed as malt liquor drinking, chitterling eating, fried chicken eating, watermelon eating...you get the point. (He didn't use watermelon or chicken, but would it have been any different if he had?). I just pointed out to him to use more tact in a public venue, because those stereotypes can be offensive (not "funny") to some. Stereotyping is DEFINITLY NOT the same as playing the dozens. To Ralph and the fiance, if someone wants to keep the "N" word alive and play with you, it doesn't make it right for public airing. Maybe I should start a new thread called "Racism in America, and the stereotypes role in forming public opinion". My sincere apologies to the fans of Melvin for this conversation appearing on this thread. He was the deepest, greatest bass of the genre.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 07:24 pm:

R,
Quite the contrary pal. It's because Bobby and Teddie and me along with so many others are the type of people we are that makes it completely acceptable to talk the way we do. We know who we are and what we feel regarding issues of racial predjudice and are completely comfortable with our system of beliefs. We really do accept one another at face value, no questions asked, with total respect and admiration for one another. It's the rest of the uptight, poltically correct, pseudo-liberal society that doesn't get us and I find that rather unfortunate.

By Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

Now all we need is a book on the Ultimate Motown Artist (IMO)Shorty Long

By Brian Chin NYC (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:45 pm:

Ohhhh...I was hoping the subject wouldn't come up again, but may I just say one thing: Every day of our lives we get up trying to get out from under SOMETHING or other. I want to say this in the kindest way possible to all concerned, since I've been called "chink" or "faggot" more times than I can count:

Trust me, I know when I'm listening to a bigot and a racist, and it's not necessarily when they use the codewords that have been mentioned. As a matter of fact, if you just tune in Fox "News" Channel or even CNN, you will hear many mealy-mouthed commentators who are saying "Die, ******" and "Die, ******" while never using the words. I thought you knew. They are very skilled now in being racists and hatemongers without using the obvious words. They make their living doing it, too, and they stole the vote in Florida, stole your retirement accounts, and stole your grandparents' prescription drugs. Okay?

Let's not lose sight of who are the real authors of hate in this country and world, please. Let's direct correction towards them -- that is much harder and we need to save our energy to respond to them, not to people who we already know are not bigots. That's why I didn't even bother to put this post on the thread of the musician that it was addressed to.

Just one last thing: I'm not saved or anything, but I just learned about an expression that's used in, I think, the Buddhist tradition. You know how the Eskimo have like 150 different words to describe snow? Well, there is one word, "Namaste," that expresses this: I honor everything that is universal in you. When we both honor what is universal in each other at the same time, we are one.

So, namaste, already!

Love, Brian

By Vickie (64.236.243.243 - 64.236.243.243) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 10:33 pm:

One must have hate to point out hate..
one must have love to point out love - and so forth..

In the meantime...

Music FAn

By KevGo (12.84.106.91 - 12.84.106.91) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:10 am:

Folks - Bobby's apology should have ended this debate over what he said and how he said it. Could we please move on from this subject once and for all before it ruins the vibe for this wonderful message board. Thank you.
KevGo

By KevGo (12.84.106.91 - 12.84.106.91) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:25 am:

Another thing about the whole issue with artist compensation - I agree with AH about lip service and putting ones money where the mouth is. When I worked in record retail here in NYC, it saddened me when Mary Wilson came into my store to BUY her Supremes recordings on CD instead of going straight to Motown (then owned by PolyGram) because, in her own words, she didn't want to go through the hassles of getting promotional copies. Or how about a member of the dance/funk band GQ who (gasp!) bought an import copy of their Best Of CD and barely had enough change to get home (fortunately, my store was very "artist-friendly" and he was given a discount which gave him cab fare to get back to the Bronx). It's damn near pathetic when this happens while the labels profit. Fortunately, there are folks like Brian Chin, Leo Sacks, myself and a few others who have rallied against such injustices and made sure that the artists whose works we've reissued are compensated. While it may have been a nice gesture for Berry Gordy to offer a "pension plan" in his sister's name to help Motowners in need but let's face it, a hell of a lot more could be and needs to be done before we tragically lose more legends to Rock & Soul Heaven. Any comments?
KevGo

By John Lester (217.45.70.238 - 217.45.70.238) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 06:27 am:

Now I know it is not my place to say this...but I know for a fact that Mary Wilson, Cal Street, Katherine Anderson, Flo's children et al no longer need to go and buy their re-packaged UK or US CD's over the counter.

Harry makes sure they are treated right.

By AH (63.188.32.125 - 63.188.32.125) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:31 am:

Harry most artists from the '60s and '70s don't even know their old albums have been repackaged as CDs. When I told Odds & Ends that their Perception/Today sides were coupled on a CD with tracks by Black Ivory about a year ago it was news to them. I bought a copy of the CD online and had it sent to one of the members.

P-Vine Records in Japan have re-issued hundreds of LPs with the original covers by American soul artists, almost none of these artists know of the existence of these albums and cds, and the label isn't paying anybody-the artists, the writers, the publishing companies, or the owners of the masters. With few exceptions, like Ace Records, what foreign labels are notifying, much less paying, the artists they include on their various artists CDs they compiled and released?

American companies, for the most part, are no different. Isn't the late Mary Wells out of the RED yet? How come the royalties from her records aren't going to her kids?

You won't find a more perfect example of recording artist abuse than the Intruders. If you look at their discography and see all the recognizable recordings the naive would think they had to have made out quite well. They were never superstars but their recordings made the charts regularly and they had a handful of Top 40 hits. But all their hit recordings came while recording for essentially production companies owned by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff: Gamble Records I believe was affiliated with MGM and Philadelphia International was distributed by CBS Records. So although Intruders' recordings aired regularly on radio they never made a lot of money as recording artists. They couldn't go to CBS and ask for an advance, they had to go to Gamble and Huff.

A member of a famous Ohio Funk Band from the '60s and '70s that had numerous number one hits and traveled all around the world mom remains in the same inner city house the band member was raised in. Never could come up with enough duckies to buy her that house in the 'burbs despite all the success. And this is just the one member that I personally know about through marriage into the family.

The reason this &%#$ still goes on is because the artists themselves don't go public. They're embarrassed, ashamed ahd whipped.

A singer once said that they didn't care what names were credited on a song because nobody was going to get paid anyway.

It's good to know that a handful of artists are notified when their work is repackaged and reissued but the majority are still ignored, in the dark, unpaid, and saddened by the whole experience.

And it's not just the singers, the musicians feel the same way, though for the most part, they were paid when they worked a session. Many are upset over the issue of live albums. Many musicians who played behind the Temptations and others on their live albums feel they should be compensated since they didn't get paid for doing a session.

KevGo the lack of responses from many of the regular participants of this message board on this subject illustrates to many what we already knew, which I won't elaborate on. The Northern Soul explosion for instance has been great for record buyers and record companies but hasn't benefitted, with few exceptions, the artists at all. Where once artists were just taken advantage of in the United States--the exploitation is now global and running rampant.

Grandkids serving in the military in places like Japan are telling grandpa they found a copy of the album he did with the Fleshtones (sic) 40 years ago in a Japanese record shop; and no it wasn't a cutout or old copy, it was brand spanking new with Japanese liner notes.

And the "beat" goes on.

By Concerned (66.73.181.250 - 66.73.181.250) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:44 am:

Maybe the artist should become bootleggers too. It seem like they're the only ones making money today.
Anytime they selling more blank CD's then the finished ones SOMETHING IS REAL WRONG!!!!!! I predict that record companies are going to struggle like they never have before and the independents will return to the forfront. If every artist who could make a CD put one out on their own it would really give the industry the FLUCKS !!!!!!!!!

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 09:25 am:

Every artist I know gives out a lot of copies of their recordings and often it IS easier to just go buy one than to request and wait around for promotional copies. If a label totally refused to give an artist even one promo copy of their CD it would be one thing but I wouldn't read more into artists buying their own CD than exactly what Mary Wilson said.

As I've gotten to know both artists and recording executives over the past 40 years, I've reached the conclusion that there simply is a lot less money in being either a recording star or a record company than most people assume. Fame should never be confused with wealth.

Artists tend to assume that the labels must be making all the money while people at the the labels seem to assume that the most successful artists must be making all the money. If you do the math factoring in retail margins, sales commissions, the cost of selling everything on consignment, the overhead of salaries, the cost of promotion and absorbing the entire cost of everything that isn't a hit, it quickly becomes clear that selling real estate is a whole LOT more profitable than running a record label.

It IS a shame that music isn't valued more highly in the United States but in my opinion it isn't accurate at all to blame this on record companies. In fact, blaming the labels only makes this problem worse because it provides people with an excuse for not responsibly supporting music themselves. There is currently a flood of rhetoric about how bad record labels are coming from the telecommunications industry yet these same folks are pursuing legislation that will totally destroy all ARTISTS' negotiating position for future income. The financial future of musical artists is being destroyed yet almost none of the folks who claim to really care are stepping up to walk the walk and actually support artists' property rights.

By Vonnie (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:33 pm:

r

Please enough already. You have had your say. We all know the man and his heart. Won't you please use tact and stop beating a dead horse. This forum is not a bully pulpit. "Love Makes the World Go Round".

Love Vonnie

By KevGo (12.84.108.160 - 12.84.108.160) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:32 am:

Amen, Vonnie.
KevGo

By John Lester (213.123.127.168 - 213.123.127.168) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:57 am:

I feel terrible now.....I paid huge sums for some 30 odd Invictus, Hot Wax, Music Merchant CD's on Japanese P-vine, also Greg Perry, Edna Wright. I honestly thought that the artists were getting their dues.

As it happens, I wrote to the HDH office at the time with a suggestion for future releases but, as is generally the case with my letters, I got ignored.

So in conclusion, I feel I did the honest thing and try to let the right people know. However, I am not sure anyone in America could have stopped something going on in Japan.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.104 - 195.219.7.104) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 05:59 am:

Hey John,theres not a lot more you can do,at least your an honest guy,if they dont want to know then thats there buisness.But your right about Japan,theres not a lot you or anyone can do regards them.As usual though its the honest guy,trying to make a decent living at the end of the day who once again misses out,roll back the years(i.e.1970)when on the rare soul scene all the bootlegs that were comning out of Mr.Kings boot of his car.And from there it escalated,so it seems to have come around full circle.MEL.

By johnLester (213.123.127.168 - 213.123.127.168) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 06:50 am:

Ooooo ...my eyes slipped so past over the name of the owner of that car boot, I didn't even see it!

By AH (63.188.32.229 - 63.188.32.229) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 07:05 am:

American companies don't do anything because the legal fees would exceed any lawsuit they would win. Just how many copies of old George Kerr albums are P-Vine going to sell? Nearly all the old All Platinum albums are available on P-Vine with their original covers and sometimes with extra tracks (as they did the Ponderosa Twins Plus One's album). PTPO are from Cleveland, none of them knew the album was out until I told one of the members about three years ago. I have a song on the album--nobody notified me.

Marginal Records in Belgium (out of business now) released complete Tammi Terrell and Eddie Holland's CDs (Eddie's had 30 songs on it), as well as, other disks with songs and recordings owned by Motown. I doubt if Motown ever took them to court because Marginal would have claimed "we only sold so many..." I'll let Ritchie tell you what happened to the owner of Marginal.

I use to tell guys around town who were in groups that their recording(s) are on foreign compilations CDs and albums. I stopped doing this except in certain cases because it makes many people mad knowing they're being ripped off. A few even get testy at the messenger (moi) as if I had something to do with it.

By john lester (213.123.127.168 - 213.123.127.168) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 08:02 am:

AH

Ritchie has told the "older" regulars that story and I have to admit feeling sorrow when hearing the circumstances, death is tragic whatever way it comes about.

You probably know that Belgium has different copyright laws and so Motown were not able to do anything except apply pressure..that is, until the releases were being sold outside Belgium....and then ..well let's leave the rest to Ritchie

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 08:21 am:

Rather than tell the story again and have to recheck the quotes, here's what I posted on the Motown BB in August:

The story of the Marginal label is dark and murky. The Belgian who put the CDs together had no permission to do so, and was working under an odd copyright law which extends only to the Benelux countries. As the law stood, any published recording over 25 years old was "out of copyright" in the Benelux countries, and therefore available for reissue, if publishing (songwriting) royalties were paid. However, these reissues could not and still should not be sold outside of Belgium. Everywhere else, they are bootlegs, plain and simple.

Most of the tracks were taken from old vinyl, but some came from Japanese CDs, which he bought from another dealer in Brussels, Belgium. This is what the original dealer told me, (From his original unedited message)

"He buy some Japanese cd's ( expensive ) in my store en pressed the same week and destroy so my own bussiness , because everbody sell that cd's then!"

"The Detroit serie he pay nothing for rights and he had problems with this serie , also some other Motown stuf."

"On end was serious bussiness not possible with him. He come out with connection from Italy (i'm think you understand this situation ) and i'm broken every contackt for safety !"

On the subject of his demise:

"Mayby you don't now the reason of his dead , he kill himself with a combination of cocaine ,alcahol and gas of his carr in a garage box in Brussel."

The end came when all the chickens came home to roost - creditors demanding payment, the lenders asking for the loans to be repaid and a certain US label starting to make enquiries in Europe. It was a very shady business, especially in the light of the cautious reference to "Italy".

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

AH

You said the other day:-
"KevGo the lack of responses from many of the regular participants of this message board on this subject illustrates to many what we already knew, which I won't elaborate on."

I'd love you to elaborate.

By KevGo (12.84.106.179 - 12.84.106.179) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

If I may chime in on the P-Vine gang they are an interesting bunch. They ususally send a representative from their company (which uses the name Blues Interactions) to scout out catalogues to reissue. In the reissue game whenever a company reissues another label's catalog, the reissuer makes sure that their licensing contract states that the original label's responsible for the artist royalties. So companies like P-Vine can get away with reissuing product (and exporting them back here) without sharing the responsibility of paying the artists.

Note to John Lester:
Don't feel bad for falling for the P-Vine stuff. In the future, check out the Invictas/Hot Wax compilations the Holland Group put together and released here in the USA. Also, the folks at the UK concern Sequel have released many original Invictas/Hot Wax two-fers that are very good. Check them out sometime.

Peace,
KevGo
(PS - to AH, I'd be curious to read your elaboration as to why artists don't speak out. I respect your prior commentaries and look forward to reading your insights)

By AH (67.25.127.177 - 67.25.127.177) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 06:08 pm:

Hi Dave

I won't elaborate. It wouldn't be politically correct. And if nothing else, I try to be politically correct. Don't you?

I will say I didn't have you or most of the other posters in mind cause I hardly know you guys.

I'm talking about record company owners and those in cohoots with them who are pimping '60 and '70s soul artists like $5 crack-ho's.

I know it's a pain keeping account of record sales, hiring secretarial help, and sending out them little royalty checks. But it's the right thing to do.

IT'S NOT THE MONEY THAT PISSES OFF PEOPLE AS MUCH AS IT IS THE LACK OF RESPECT. IS IT TOO MUCH TO TRY TO LOCATE THEM AND GIVE THEM A COPY OF THE CD?

By KevGo (12.84.106.82 - 12.84.106.82) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:16 pm:

AH,
As a member of the recording industry, I understand your not wanting to elaborate on your comments regarding artists & labels yet your last posting pretty much sums up what you want to say but can't. I have to agree that some labels do a real crappy job with communicating with the artists regarding reissues (why they don't who the hell knows) but there are some labels that do a decent job with having the artists involved in the reissue process. Since the Mary Wilson incident I relayed many postings ago, I do know that Harry Weinger at Universal Music Group does his best to have artist cooperation and involvement in reissues. Same goes for Leo Sacks at Sony, Tom Cartwright at EMI, Rob Santos at BMG/Buddha, Brian Chin, David Nathan, Scott Galloway, Paul Williams of the House of Hits, and myself. Sometimes it's hard to track down the artists,producers and writers because people do move. As for financial compensation, that's another battle my colleagues have even within the companies we serve. The bean-counters are concerned with product movement and sales and that's it yet we also make these folks aware that if it weren't for the success of our legends in the first place, the bean-counters wouldn't have jobs and the labels wouldn't have grown the way they did in the first place. I know it sounds like I'm rambling on (I'm on the road in Chicago on my way to St. Louis & Detroit and I'm tired as hell) but I wanted to shine some light on the fact that some of us are doing the best we can in the face of some labels who are still, sadly, pimping and ho'ing ourlegends.
Regards,
KevGo

By John Lester (213.123.151.143 - 213.123.151.143) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 04:05 am:

KevGo

I have all those US issues that you mentioned and I thank you for giving such a fine series a plug. I have to say that the last 5 of the 3900 series (HDH, Flaming Ember etc) from a few years ago produced alternate versions of some of the more well known songs.

At present, I work in the background with Sequel (now Castle) on the Invictus recordings....like right now we are working on err, a few hits packages. However, I am constantly pressurising them to go for previously unissued stuff cos there is really nothing else that can be issued in the UK that hasn't been done already (well, maybe Lucifer, Satisfaction Unlimited etc, I suppose). Castle have been working on this for the past few years and are continuing to work on it...so keep your fingers crossed and we might just get that Eddie Holland produced album by Brenda Holloway!

By JSmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:34 am:

John,
Have Sequel (Castle) put out all the tracks Silent Majority cut for Hot Wax ???.
I would love a definitive CD of Aitken, Turner & Co's recordings but as they cut under many names for numerous labels (Formations, Corner Boys, etc.) and also on solo projects, I guess such an album will never materialise.

By KevGo (12.84.111.38 - 12.84.111.38) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 11:51 am:

John Lester:
I've been a fan of the Sequel/Castle reissue series for the past ten years, mainly because they offer each CD a great number of tracks for not a lot of money. For example the Five Stairsteps anthology they released had up to 22 songs at a retail pricepoint of $13.99 (the BMG/Buddha reissue only offers 14 tracks at that same price). I would be so bold to say that many labels have followed Sequel's lead in offering lots of tracks per CD but not Sequel's lead in the pricing department (I know the reason why but I won't belabor the point here). Keep up the wonderful job and keep us posted on the progress.
Best regards
KevGo

By John Lester (213.123.151.143 - 213.123.151.143) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 05:53 pm:

Silent Majority haven't really got the output other than 3 songs...unless you go for unissued stuff - and I can tell you that Castle are doing their best in that department.

From memory, those three tracks have made their way on CD but not all in the same place.

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

I wish I were more informed about what reissues are good and which ones are made by swindlers, because i do a lot of ordering online and over the phone since my area has a dearth of record shops, and I ordered a 4 CD set called Sweet Soul Ballads, and to my surprise, they were poorly packaged and they are all blue backs. I felt hideous. The only way I could salvage my conscience was by rationalizing that if these tunes ever come out legitimately, I will buy them. On the CD covers, it just says "Made In Poland" and there is no record company listed. The songs are of poor quality, but I should have asked more about the CDs before buying. Oh well.

By KevGo (12.84.107.125 - 12.84.107.125) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:34 am:

NISH:
Check out ICE Magazine for the latest reissues and such so that you "won't get fooled again" to quote a famous guitarist. ICE also lets the reader know what is good and what to avoid like the plague. It's a monthly magazine and should be available at bookstores where magazines are sold (Barnes & Noble, Borders) as well as some Tower/Virgin/HMV stores.
Good luck,
KevGo

By john lester (62.49.61.57 - 62.49.61.57) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 08:21 am:

Nish

You could always ask your learned friends here on soulful detroit, after all, aren't we all friends!

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:20 am:

Thanks John! I will do that. Thankfully, my most recent CD purchases are ALL RIGHT from David Nathan's Soul Music Store! A Cellarful of Motown is great! But, as for my Sweet Soul Swindles, it's so sad that my only copy of The Moments of Truth's "I'll Step Aside" is barely audible. And KevGo, thanks for the ICE recommendation, but I can't seem to find the mag at any barnes and noble. I'll have to continue to scour or subscribe, if the subscription rates are reasonable.

By Common (209.2.55.114 - 209.2.55.114) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:46 am:

Hello Everyone,

Hope you don't mind but I copied & pasted this interesting post/article from Soul Patrol about financial improperities in the Music industry:

Subject: soul-patrol: Update: Recording Industry Deceptive Accounting Practices

If I ever murder someone I want Cary Sherman for a lawyer. Next to him
Johnnie Cochrane is a poser.

9/25/02, 6 p.m. ET) -- The Eagles' Don Henley and Glenn Frey, Backstreet Boys ( news - web sites)' Kevin Richardson, Clint Black, and representatives
of the Chambers Brothers and Bing Crosby told members of the California State Senate about deceptive accounting practices by record labels at a hearing in Los Angeles on Tuesday (September 24). Key issues were the distribution of artists' royalties and the allegedly painstaking audit process, which often takes up to five years. The
reoccurring theme: the major labels--EMI/Capitol, BMG, Sony, Warner Music Group, and the Universal Music Group--routinely and knowingly cheat acts out of due income using creative accounting and limiting artists' access to financial information.
The Eagles' Frey explained how his band has been in "perpetual audit" with Geffen and Elektra Records over the accuracy of royalty payments, while Backstreet's Richardson offered, "Our record company, after selling 70 million albums, still tells us we are un-recouped."

Lola Chambers, wife of Lester Chambers, testified that the Chambers Brothers' signature song, "Time Has Come Today," has earned the group $247
in the European markets in the last 16 years.
Clint Black said he recently learned that he still owed RCA Records money, despite having sold 20 million albums and having generated "as much as $150 million" for the label. Kathryn Crosby, Bing Crosby's widow, explained how MCA quietly cut the royalty to the Crosby Estate from 15 to seven percent. And Ruben Blades, speaking on behalf of the Latin music community, pointed
out that practices were a "bilingual rip-off."
Other speakers included rock guitarist Steve Vai, 1970's funk artist Charles Wright, pop songwriter Jennifer Warnes, and Walter Ward, vocalist in the
'60s-era R&B group the Olympics. Also in attendance but not speaking were Tom Waits and Backstreet's Howie Dorough.

Henley, who is often considered the ringleader among artists seeking change in the industry's practices, did his part to dispel the suggestion that his motives were personal. "I want you to understand that this is not about anyone's personal vendetta against a record-company president or a record company itself," he said. "We all need record companies to manufacture and distribute and promote our work. But we also need fairness. This is a practice in the industry that has become arcane and has become
institutionalized over the past 60 years."

Executives from all five major labels had a chance to better explain their business practices, and while the day-long hearing could be considered constructive, it was not without contention. Cary Sherman, president of the
Recording Industry Association Of America ( news - web sites), offered some of the most passionate defense. "The one thing we all share is a sense of
outrage at the indiscriminate nature of the allegations leveled at our industry," he told the state lawmakers. Sherman continued, "What we're witnessing here is trial by anecdote. It's
bad enough that the anecdotes may themselves be inaccurate, incomplete, or misleading, but to then have those anecdotes generalized as though they're applicable to all companies and entire industries is truly unfair. There are tens of thousands of men and women who go to work every day to try and advance the careers of artists and bring great music to the public, and it's
offensive and malicious to malign an entire industry based on stereotypes,innuendoes, and myths."

Tuesday's hearing--chaired by Senator Kevin Murray--was the second on the
subject. A third will also be scheduled in the coming months.
Radiopro (TM)

By Common (209.2.55.114 - 209.2.55.114) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 08:51 am:

BTW, has anyone ever read the book "Hitmen" by Fredrick Dannon? Very fascinating account about what goes on in the music industry & the men who are behind the scenes.

By AH (63.188.33.117 - 63.188.33.117) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 09:29 am:

Common I still have my copy of Hitmen, a good book but it's just the tip of the iceberg. While I previously posted about the scam and ripoffs of soul artists the practice is widespread and cover all genres of music and artists. The whole industry needs to be revamped. Confessions of a Record Producer is also a good book, among other things it details the tricky accounting practices use by record companies.

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 01:29 am:

I jotted down the titles to the books that you guys mentioned!
I'm getting into the biz and it's good to know what to expect!
I could never rip anybody off like that. I guess some people just don't have any decency or moral code about them.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 10:24 am:

FWIW I happen to know the "rest of the story" about why many of the artists mentioned have never recouped their royalty advances and I am amazed by the amount of restraint Carey Sherman and others have shown towards their outrageous accusations.

The hitmen cost me the fruits of five years labor however they were NOT our record label, they were people running an extortion racket that victimized BOTH artists and labels. Today radio conglomerates are running a similar scam on artists and labels.

The reason many artists never receive royalty checks is because they have already been given millions of dollars in advances early in their careers. Lawyers and managers encourage artists to make deals with little or no "back-end" because they usually receive at least 20 percent of everything advanced themselves. It's a specious practice but the artists and their managers continue to insist on it and the labels have to go along or the artist will just go to another label that is willing to make that kind of deal.

By AH (64.159.100.40 - 64.159.100.40) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:14 am:

Bob

With all due respect I could list hundreds of cases like George McCrae getting zero royalties or accounting for his hit "Rock My Baby." Only after barging into the label owner's office with a knife was he given a couple of thousand the owner had in his pocket and the keys to his (the owner's) leased Caddilac.

Gwen McCrae got the grand sum of $10,000 for her big hit, which when you think about it she did much better than many.

Jackie Ross' royalty check for "Selfish One," was so insulting she tore it up and threw it Leonard Chess' face.

A Cleveland group the Hesitations never received a dime from Kapp Records nor any big advances.

Artists who also write songs are tricked out of their songwriting royalties via cross-collatorization. Record companies apply the songwriting income to the debt they owe as recording artists, hence they're still in hole and no money.

Recording artists should get a bigger share of the pie. Period!

I hear Brenda Holloway is still in the red.

Motown Records got the grand sum of $2.19 for two singles they leased to End Records in which they not only recorded the song, but also wrote and published it.

You really should read Confession of a Record Producer, the write Moses Avalon, explains in simplistic details how artists and songwriters are ripped off by recording companies with padded expenses, points for breakage (when CDs don't break like vinyl records did), etc.

Why is every expense taken from the small royalty that the artist gets? How come nothing is taking from the recording company's percentage.

If your daughter or son wanted to be a recording artist or go to college and become a lawyer, doctor, corporate executive, or salesmen, which would you recommend, Bob, knowing what you know about the business and it's treatment of recording artists.

What most people don't know and isn't widely publicized is that many people of note in the recording business from the '60s on, had other full time professions, which many have now retired from. I'm not talking about after their foray in music, but doing it, when they realized they couldn't make enough money from music despite their many hits and credits. Many had fulltime jobs before getting involved in music and never gave them up because in spite of (again) numerous hits and credits they never made enough money to quit and devote to music fulltime.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a music lover, and record buyer, but the industry has serious problems that has been around since the inception of popular music and Top 40 radio that has yet to be addressed.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 06:45 pm:

I have read Confessions of a Record Producer and almost everything else mentioned. I ALSO have read many recording contracts and know many people who have worked at all levels in our industry. I've also heard just as many stories about artists ripping off labels for hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars as I have about labels ripping off artists.

My point is that ALL recording contracts are not like this and those that are were frequently the result of people selling out the back end of their contract in order to gain a larger advance up front. Most labels would prefer the opposite approach but that doesn't give fat advance money to the lawyers. Some contracts have some of the issues you mention but none I've ever read have all of them and many have none of them. For example both Motown (in Detroit) and Chess only recouped musician fees and actual cash advances. NO studio time, NO promotion, NO advertising etc. Motown management contracts only took a percentage of live performance income and none from royalties.

I would be pleased to have my daughter or anybody I know be involved in a good recording contract.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 07:30 pm:

Bob,
In the latter days Motown WAS deducting royalties for studio time. Actually, I think I'm the guilty party here for suggesting this to Harry Balk. But it was all on the up and up. Record companies that did not own their own studios would have to deduct studio time incurred in the making of a record. It cost a lot of money to operate Motown's studios when you consider equipment, engineering staff, Maintainence, etc. It was only fair that artists should be charged SOMETHING for the use of the studios.
To protect the artist from excessive studio costs, producers were closely monitored in studio time granted. I remember when Harry really cracked down on the excessive mixing that was taking place.Producers were allowed two mixes and then it went to Russ or one of the other guys. The point here is, it was all good business and the arists were treated with respect regarding their fiancial interests in any given project.

By AH (63.188.32.133 - 63.188.32.133) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

Unbelievable!

I guess thousands of artists, musicians and songwriters across the country are all just blowing smoke. It's too bad the majority of recording arists and songwriters are too embarrased to discussed their meager royalties, if any, which is the reason the scam goes on. Most recording contracts are unfair and the artist has little chance of making any significant monies, and most soul artists particularly in the '60s didn't get large advances.

What about musicians who played on live albums? All they receive is their normal salaries for playing behind the artist on the gig? They don't royalties for playing on the album, nor any studio fee, because it was a live taping.

What I really would like to know is some evidence of the many artists that have ripped off recording companies? This is a new one to me, Bob. Enlightened us?

I guess the status quo is just fine for some of us.

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:52 pm:

Please calm down and realize that "some of us" have in fact worked inside the record industry -- not only at labels, but on the artist/writer/management side too.

Let me tell you, plenty of hotshot lawyers are out there who would have broken many contracts if it was the scene of anarchy you claim it is. Even acts who renegotiate their contracts like TLC do it through a work stoppage, and never walk away by proving they were cheated. Think Courtney Love would ever swallow what she just had to swallow if she had the goods on Universal? Doubt it. She would have gotten her masters and Nirvana's. She didn't. And she's rich.

If TLC, for example, were broke, I would suggest that members stop burning down houses and inviting massive lawsuits by insurance companies. If artists handled their own businesses and especially their own families the way the record labels do, in my observation, they wouldn't be looking around and finding themselves broke nearly as often.

Live album musicians are paid salaries to go on tour and make great livings. Ask Ernie Watts or Pino Palladino. Studio session musicians are paid on a non-royalty basis, too. I'm sure when that session player makes his own artist album he doesn't want to split royalties with every session person he hires. That begs the question, is there any such thing as a solo artist or is every album by a group? A featured or co-credit or duet situation is another issue, but Eric Clapton doesn't demand royalties on a solo he plays because he doesn't want to pay them out to every other player on his album.

As for the status quo, Queen Latifah just changed her entire label contract to a 50/50 deal with artists she signs. I wish her well and hope that her back end leaves her with enough residual money to properly promote her artists. If that's true, then she just put every major label out of business. If not, she won't have any hits because I'm pretty sure the artist won't be volunteering to pay for the video, their travel and promotional expenses or the staff that makes sure the record gets to radio, retail, the press, and everywhere else that labels pay for visibility. I mean, you see how many multi-platinum-selling artists are just raining on us from the internet, after posting their records on mp3.com.

By SisDetroit (67.26.12.43 - 67.26.12.43) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:49 am:

(((Left Eye))) R.I.P
(((Melvin Franklin))) R.I.P

By AH (63.188.32.47 - 63.188.32.47) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:13 am:

Brian, you may be unaware but some musicians are taking legal action seeking payment(s) for work done on live albums for the reasons I stated. It's not something I dreamed up.

I repeat recording contracts are unfair. The fact that recording artists are considered Independent Contractors is a farce that for some reason the IRS has let go on for years. Recording companies call them IC so they won't have to pay health issurance, contribute to 401ks, etc. Recording artists who are told what to record, when to record it, are assigned producers, sent on promo tours by recording companies don't fit the definition of an independent contractor.

You guys are blaming the victims. To be honest I'm quite shock to see some so adament in defending recording companies shocking practices. Working in the industry as you guys do, you're probably just protecting your jobs. Not biting the hand that feeds you. I guess you know as well as I do that if the general public knew none of the monies from those oldie CDs they're buying are filtering down to the artist, they might not buy them. Don't believe me? Go talk to some of the old Stax artists like the Mad Lads, the Soul Children, etc.

There's no way to justify the fact that Gladys Knight & the Pips had two big records prior to Motown, "A Letter Full Of Tears" and "Every Beat of My Heart" and never made a dime from either.

How can you guys defend and alibi these instances that occured way back then and are still happening now. Are you saying it's fair for an artist to receive anywher from .6 to 3 percent of net receipts of a record, the percentages that many artists signed to production companies get?

Many '60s artists were getting one percent per record. If they sold a million and the distributors paid the recording company for a million sold and if (a whole lotta ifs)the recording company paid the artist, he earned the lofty amount of $10,000. Not! Everything from recording expenses, studio time, tape, uniforms, limousine rides, trips to major television shows like Ed Sullivan (where they didn't get paid), were deducted from that $10,000 and often the artists ended up owing the company $10,000.

Tecnically artists got paid for appearing on the Sullivan show but had to sign the check back to Sullivan. Can you believe that? This was done because of deals struck with recording companies. An appearance on the Sullivan show sold records so companies sent their artists there free of charge to Ed, but made them pay the expenses of getting there and back out of future royalties.

Bob you didn't mention any artist that ripped off record companies but I can name one that did. The Boys, a '80s/'90s Motown act that decided not to fulfil their contract after signing a second deal with the company and receiving a substantial advance. They sat it out, and now live in Gambia, where they make records on their own label. Good for them. They probably felt the company owed them for the two number one R&B hits they had. Unfortunately, for every artist that sticks it to a record company, a 1,000 get stuck.

You guys harp on the superstars, what about the artists that sell 250,000, 500,000, 175,000 records, shouldn't they make money from recording too? Explain why the system is setup so they don't.

Go into more detail about "getting the record on the radio" Brian; I hear indie promo men get $5,000 for each major station they get a record on. Is it any wonder the artists get nothing?

By KefGo (12.84.107.177 - 12.84.107.177) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:17 am:

AH,
KevGo here. First of all, relax..take a deep breath...exhale...
As a compilation producer, music manager, liner note writer and passionate music lover, I am one who actually fights for the rights of the artists and do so at the risk of losing work and not having my phone calls returned. No one is saying that what has happened to many artists was right or wrong. All they are doing is stating the facts albeit disputable. The bottom line is many of the artists from the Golden Era were kids who had dreams of being stars and signed whatever was put in front of them - an old story that is still happening today. From Frankie Lymon to the Ronettes (who are still in court over their suit against Phil Spector)to the Motown gang, these folks signed deals for dreams with no question because in those days kids were taught to respect and trust elders and authority figures. Only now do they realize that they should be getting a bigger piece of the pie with the millions labels are making off their songs (hell, according to the "facts" posted in the Hitsville/Mototwn Museum, the label grossed 20 million dollars by 1965). Were some of those deals unfair? Sure. Are these artists entitled to a bigger share? You bet they are. Will they get it? Let's hope so.
Note To Brian Chin - In the case of TLC, they (as well as Toni Braxton) signed a "work for hire" production agreement with LaFace which was not a standard record contract - the same type of deal another 90s girl group En Vogue signed with their producer(s). Fortunately for TLC and Braxton, they sued Reid, Edmonds and Arista and received fair contracts.
Regards,
KevGo

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:37 am:

I'm not defending anything about the racist practices and exploitative terms of record contracts dating back to the dawn of the record business. I'm just saying that the "victims" are just as selective in presenting their case as the big bad record companies. And again I remind you that one artist -- just one -- could make the whole house fall down if they could prove that they were grossly underpaid, and there was a pattern that applied to each and every artist, as you are saying. I don't think the Dixie Chicks and Courtney Love just suddenly got polite and decided to go home. I don't think Mariah Carey looked around and said, this is just a rape scene and I'm having none of it. These are the people who had the most lawyers and the most hate in their hearts against the people who let them down and you see what happened when they pursued their cases as far as they could. They ended up in another record deal.

The problem here is that it's not free and never was to get your record exposed. It's not in the ether. It takes hundreds of people to get that record out of the studio, onto the radio and into your hands. The person who voiced that record is just one of them who wants to be paid for a fair day's work. In my opinion, Peter Asher and the session musicians deserve more royalties for making, for example, Linda Ronstadt records than she does. How fair is that, when she comes in and makes a cover record played by a studio band and just sings it?

The big negotiation point in record contracts now is who pays for the big expensive video and all that radio play and promotion. If you ever watch MTV, those videos cost $250K, $750K, Missy Elliot says she won't make a video for less than $1M. That's how Backstreet Boys can be unrecouped when they've gotten huge advance checks on top of the gigantic expenses of promotion, none of which the artist advances. The investor holds the seed money and say what you wish, but black ownership has zoomed in the last decade with the takeover of the industry by rap. And hip-hop and sampled disco has enriched many old school writers through samples. I'm just saying what I found out when after 10 years of reviewing records, I went to work inside the business. I had no idea how green and stupid I'd been, and, yes I did literally give out royalty checks to artists and producers who'd just had their first top 5 R&B records with us, and these were some of the greatest days of my life, to look them in the eye and say, "Honey, it's payday." I do not know what happened to the checks after I gave them out.

By AH (63.188.32.175 - 63.188.32.175) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:44 am:

KevGo, you're the one who should calm down, you typed your user name as KefGo. But basically I agree with everything you just posted. I, however, think that the industry needs a hard revamping. And I still don't understand why the Internal Revenue Service haven't declared the Independent Contractor status of many recording artists as bogus and gone after recording companies who issue 1099's to artist when they should be issuing W2's with FICA deductions, state and city taxes, and offering benefits like health insurance and paid vacations.

Recording companies prey on youth and starry eyes, plus they know they're the only game in town. Sign with us and let us rip you off or don't sign and remain unknown and frustrated, wondering all your life about what could have been. Hell of a choice.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 10:25 am:

One thing about Courtney Love, she may have "gone away" after settling with Universal, but she had the money to pay lawyers, and the influence -- to get journalists to write about her -- to correct the inequities in her recording deal.

Most recording artists don't have the money required to pay lawyers to get what's owed them.

She's now taking her payday and going home, instead of helping others get what she got. Oh well.

I'm not anti-record company. I think people are finding out right now just how hard (and expensive) it is to pay for all the things out of pocket that the record company does. But a lot of this could have been avoided if so many artists weren't short-changed over the years.

Many of these artists would qualify for AFTRA union health insurance, but they don't even know it.

By KevGo (12.84.107.147 - 12.84.107.147) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:53 pm:

AH:
This is what happens when I'm typing with one eye open after trekking from Chicago to St. Louis to Detroit back to Chicago - I wound up typing the wrong letter in my user name. Oh well...
I do agree with you about the industry needing a serious revamping but as you indicated it's not just the record companies that need to change. The IRS isn't going to prevent the industry from using 1099's when companies as large as Kodak & General Motors use the same forms for independent contracting. What does need to change, and I agree with Brian Chin & Sue on this point, is this attitude from the Courtney Loves, Dixie Chicks & Mariahs of the world of "I'm out to get mines & the hell with every one else." It takes a cooperative effort from hundreds of people to make an artist successful and these people, from the radio promotions folks who spend hours convincing a National Program Director to add their client's records to the street teams glueing posters on billboards during the midngight hours at the risk of getting arrested by the police, and these folks deserve compensation. The Dixie Chicks knew from the get-go that their original recording contract didn't offer much (and they admitted this in Billboard magazine!) so who's at fault here? Courtney Love couldn't have been that high on drugs to realize that her initial contract with Universal/Geffen demanded seven albums over a period of time. What I'm saying is that these artists who knowingly sign bogus deals and later sue for "fair compensation" makes it difficult for the legends to rightly sue for their compensation. For example, the RIAA filed a "friend of the court" motion asking the Supreme Court to (get this) overturn the original decision made in favor of the Ronettes to get their share of the pie they baked with Phil Spector because it would set in motion a precedent in which other artists past & present can sue and win. In other words, Cary Sherman & Hilary Rosen (the lawyer & the head of the RIAA) know damn well that the labels they represent would go broke if a bunch of lawsuits break their banks. This may force the courts to carefully select who got screwed without knowing and who is screaming fire in the crowded theatre.
The sad thing is that these current artists who knowingly sign these bad deals and later sue come from a generation that has been raised to think that the world owes them something for their work and it's every man/woman for themselves, to hell with everyone else and the consequences. When I deal with younger, current artists I often drill them on reading their contracts/agreements before signing them as well as making sure they are as business minded (if not more so) than being musically gifted so that they won't be taken to the cleaners as our legends were.
The beat goes on...
Regards,
KevGo

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:59 pm:

Once again KevGo you're pretty right on. But expecting a recording artist or even an attorney (if most could afford to retain one) whose unfamiliar with the recording industry to ascertain whether they're being screwed or not is stretching it a bit. A big problem, but the bigger problem is that some companies don't even adhere to their unfair contracts. Artists and songwriters rarely get statements from recording companies or publishers. I know many recording companies and publishers do issue statements, but there's lots that don't.

I've never talk to a recording artist or writer in my life who knew exactly how many copies one of their recordings sold. Especially the Legends, who have no clue.

The major recording companies know they're the only game in town. Independent companies have virtually no chance. The many people, including ex artists and producers, who have set up companies are finding out how hard it is to get a hit when you either are not willing to spend the money, or don't have it to spend for the enormous amount of promotion it takes to put a recording in the mix.

Prince tried something similar to what Queen Latifah is doing with little success. I just think something in wrong with the system when a artist's recording sell 500,000 copies and a recording company excecutive can look him in the eye and say "you ain't got nothing coming, we're still trying to recoup (including our padded expenses)what we put into you." Give me a break, somebody revamp the system--please!

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:28 pm:

I don't think expecting a recording artist to understand their contract is stretching it at all. I learned what little bit I know simply by reading some contracts. I think it is doing artists a serious disservice to promote the idea that they shouldn't expect to be able to understand contracts. Anybody who is bright enough to be a good performer is bright enough to understand what they are signing.

The most important thing is for an artist to always get a second opinion from a lawyer who is paid by the hour in order to make sure their deal is what's good for them rather than what's good for whoever is negotiating on their behalf for a percentage. Artists spending a hundred dollars on a consultation would have prevented the vast majority of misunderstandings.

I have put a lot of time and energy in to educating young artists as have many others in our industry. The late John Hammond went so far as to pay attorneys to represent everybody he signed out of his own pocket. Unfortunately most journalists have never been willing to cover the positive side.

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:52 pm:

Hey Bob. Hello! Most of the recording artists from the fifties and sixties were signed as teenagers; many from poor areas of their respective communities. They couldn't afford to run it past a lawyer. At that time nobody knew what a fair contract was anyway. Where was somebody from Detroit or Cleveland going to find a top entertainer lawyer at in 1963? And if one existed, who was going to pay them?

Thank God for John Hammond. He was the exception, Bob, not the rule! Journalists haven't covered the positive side because there's no much positive to cover! Do you ever talk to artists outside of the recording studio? Do you go to where they lived? Do you have any clue as to the dire financial straits many were in when they were so called famous recording artists, and the bitterness that resulted because of that.

Do you want me to go get some recording artists to post to this board and tell you how wrong you are? Guaranteed, they won't be as nice as I've been. People were ripped off then and they're being ripped off now. Nothing has changed, Bob. PEOPLE IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HELPING AN ARTIST OUT BY BEING HIS CD THEN THINK AGAIN, YOU'RE NOT! YOU'RE ONLY FATTENING THE BANK ACCOUNTS OF MANY UNSCRUPULOUS OWNERS BECAUSE IN MOST CASES THEY'RE NOT SEEING A PENNY OF THAT MONEY, NEITHER ARE THE WRITERS.

If i want to read FICTION BOB I'LL GO GET A JOHN GRISHAM NOVEL, HE'S A BETTER WRITER THAN YOU!

How many times do artists and writers have to tell you that they didn't paid and are still not being paid for it to register?

By SisDetroit (67.25.212.244 - 67.25.212.244) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:12 pm:

I only buy a CD if I like it. Very few over the past 20 years. It has nothing to do with helping an artist. I'm not complaining about what the artist gets up front or in between. I know I pay $15.99 for a CD, and pay $77.00 to see my brother play bass behind a well known group. I don't mind. It's my choice.

The 50's & 60's were different. Today, however, there is no excuse for an artist not to know how to read, or what he/she is signing. They just want to be there. It's the company that makes or breaks the star as far as stardum, with or without talent. Of course, I don't know what the artist can do about the unfair accounting practices on the inside.

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:38 pm:

Sue, can you read a contract with understanding? Have you ever seen a recording contract? They can be 30 pages of legalese. If normal everyday people like you and I could read a contract like an attorney why do we need them?

I can see a racial tone getting into this discussion. Sue, just like more whites are on welfare, more whites got gypped by recording companies because there were more of them recording. Many of the artists I've talked to are white. Shouldn't they be able to read a long legal document too, Sue. Or is it just minorities who should? Cause obviously they couldn't either, as they got ripped off too.

F.Y.I. there are people who have in the back of the mind that they are supporting the artist(s) when they purchased their product. This is a reasonable presumption, isn't it? No, it hasn't stopped me from buying much, but it's still in the back of my mind whether the participants are getting paid.

It seems many people that post here, surely not all, claim to love these old soul records, the artists, blah, blah...but when you bring up the fact that they got ripped off, you get defensive and start blaming them because as teens they were unable to deal with savvy record company owners and their attorneys. Let me tell you that you're not doing them any favors. Many, and I've talked to many across the country and in foreign countries now view people like you as exploiters.

I know the truth hurts but if the shoe fits wear it.

I can list at least 50 white artists (groups and solo acts) that never got a penny from their respective recording companies. I guess they didn't know how to read either, Sue. But it's a good thing you do, maybe everybody can run their legal documents by you for final approval.

By KevGo (12.84.106.156 - 12.84.106.156) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:16 pm:

SisDetroit:
Thank you for the last paragraph for it summarizes what I explained before. There is absolutely NO excuse for any current or new artist not to know or read their contract(s). The artists I mentioned in my last diatribe basically knew what the hell they were getting themselves into and went for it anyway and they're not the only ones, either. Maybe there should be some forum or summit between the legends and current performers so that the Golden Age artists can tell these new jacks and jills that this "out to get mines" bullshit is only making it difficult for those who really got burned to be properly compensated (I'll betcha Ronnie Spector Bennett would be the first to sign up).
Bob:
It's great that you are reaching out to young artists (and hopefully older as well) and getting them the legal assistance they need and deserve. John Hammond Sr. believed in leading by example and it seems that is what you are trying to do.
AH:
My Brother - I share your passion and your fury as I've mentioned before of what I've done for legends at the risk of losing work (I was once ousted from a label in NYC two weeks after I lobbied - and pestered - the label owners to help out their former A&R chief who needed money to help pay his daughter's college tuition, arguing that if it weren't for his work, there would be no label). I'm sure Bob gets what you're trying to convey and maybe it's about time we all come together face to face in some forum to discuss what the hell has happened to these legends and come up with a battleplan to rally for rightful compensation. Leaving it up to the Rhythm and Blues Heritage Foundation and the like is not the answer. Maybe we need to approach Congress on this matter and hold the RIAA's feet to the fire (after all, they are lobbying the Courts to overturn the Ronettes Vs Spector ruling)reminding them bluntly that without these artists there would be no industry. Venting back and forth in this forum is not gonna solve the problem. We need to take this to another level and there are enough of us here in the S.D. Forum to make this happen. I'm willing to phone you on my dime to get the ball rolling if you've got the time.
Peace and Blessings to All,
KevGo

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:36 pm:

KevGo I just discovered that Brenda Holloway CD you released. I think it's you anyway.

I agree Kev the conversation needs to go to a level above blaming artists for not being able to read a legal document. Who can except for attorneys that practice in whatever field that document pertains to? If you're not an attorney please don't presume you can, cause depending on the document you could be signing your life away, your kid, or mom's house.

It's really filthy to excuse the behavoir of the unscrupulous because the victim wasn't as savvy. Kinda like blaming a deaf man for getting bit by a rattlesnake because he couldn't hear it rattle.

It's good thing 9 to fivers don't have to be concern about entering into employment only to find out they were mislead six months down the road because they never bothered to read the find print. When did it become o.k. to chisel and swindle people because you're smarter than them?

Kev, I'm open for conversation like 7/11; hit my email and I'll call you: bkagent22@excite.com

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:42 pm:

KevGo, if you have a moment, please e-mail me thru my profile on this issue of artists rights that is being addressed on this thread. I have a question, but i don't want to continue bogging down the thread with this more music BUSINESS-related stuff.

But, as to artists not getting their fair share of these reissues, it's really sad. When I approached one 1960s lady of soul, I was holding a CD in my hand that comes from the legitimate multimedia conglomerate that absorbed the label she recorded on hoping to get her to sign my liner notes. Well, she did, but she also stated she didn't know about the release. I'm not sure, but I'm also assuming that means she hadn't received any money from the release to date. And this is a CD that was 3 years old at the time I met her. Shameful.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:15 pm:

AH,
I'm baffled by your repeated postings to me. I didn't say anything in any post about whether people, black or white, were able to read or not read contracts.

I think you need to keep everybody who's posting on this site straight, and aim your comments accordingly. My last post on this topic was about Courtney Love getting her payday and forgetting everybody else.

Please keep your comments to me confined to what I've actually stated.

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:22 pm:

Believe me Sue, I'll never reply to another of your posts again, nor will I mention your name. You do the same, OK. I was merely responding to your ridiculous assumption that non attorneys should be able to understand legal documents. And yes, I do think your post contained racial overtones as we were speaking about soul artists. Again, if the shoe fits wear it. Have a nice life.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:34 pm:

AH,
Again I tell you, never have I mentioned legal documents OR lawyers. You're mistaking someone else's posts for mine. Show me where I said anything about contracts?

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:46 pm:

Sue, you're forgiven, I'm not going to even check. It's silly for posters to this forum to get mad at each other. Everybody is just expressing their views from individual perspectives. You mentioned something about they should be able to read or something. Reading and being able to read and understand a legal document are two different things is the point I was trying to make.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:47 pm:

Forgiven? No, now I'm mad. Go back and see who wrote about lawyers and contracts. I said NOTHING about how anybody should be able to read contracts, Bob Ohlsson did.

And read the copy on the left about personal attacks.

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79 - 12.245.225.79) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

AH
I think you're confusing Sue's posts with SisDetroit's posts
Steve K.

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:05 pm:

Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I've been at the computer too long. Sorry about that Sue.

I attempted to make amends and now you're scolding me! Do you think I care whether or not whoever bans me from this board for stating my opinions? Do you really think I care?

F.Y.I. on the political spectrum I'm in Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharpton's camp, I was one of those '60s protesters. There's not a bit of Clarence Thomas in me. Not one drop. Me getting banned from this board would be par for the course...the American way. Just guessing, but I figure the minorities who regularly post here can be counted on one hand, maybe two. Some welcome the different perspective, and obviously some don't.

I don't believe I personally attacked you. I merely commented on what I thought you wrote. If you're so sensistive why bother? Doesn't "you're forgiven" work for you? It does for me. But if you insist on holding a grudge, don't respond or mention me in your posts, and I'll do the same. Kissing butt is not a part of my character.

By SisDetroit (67.25.212.244 - 67.25.212.244) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:09 pm:

AH - I wanted to be a singer back in the day just like everybody else, and could sing better than any Hitsville female group or solo except Gladys Knight and Kim Weston. However, I chose a 9-5. However, it's one thing to wanna be a star, and another thing to become a star. You can't do that all by yourself. In a sense, I am a star, singing in the shower (or church), with good benefits after having retired from my 9-5 last year.

Race did not play a part in my opinion regarding reading contracts. I was not thinking color. In some circumstances, I have had to hire a lawyer to read legal documents, to negotiate on my behalf, and to advise me. (You can't trust lawyers or accountants either.)

I believe if you want a luxury car, you should be able to afford it. Being a star comes with a price. I feel for the Legends in the 50's & 40's. But, in the 90's, and 20's, if they don't have the money to assist in legal representation, then they should take the microphone and sing in the shower.

By SisDetroit (67.25.212.244 - 67.25.212.244) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:15 pm:

I meant 40's 50's and 60's. And even 70's.
But then again, I am not an expert. I am only human.

By David Meijkle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:15 pm:

Andrew

Unfortunately our temporary forum does not allow me to edit your posts.

I have mentioned on another thread however, that I no longer want your comments on this forum.

You need to wise up, grow up and throw up.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:16 pm:

Making amends by "forgiving" me for something I didn't even write? And I'm sensitive for objecting when you call me a racist for something someone else posted?

You need to do some serious thinking before you start typing, AH.

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:20 pm:

And I responded by saying I'm leaving. Please don't mentioned my name again. Who wants to be a part of this exploitation? You've prove my point, Dave!

By KevGo (12.84.107.61 - 12.84.107.61) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 12:07 am:

To All Concerned:
It's sad to see things come to this. We all are here for one goal and that is to discuss the music we all love and the artists who created it. Passion and "having fury in the soul" (to paraphrase Soul sister Laura Nyro)is one thing but for one to expouse it irresponsibly in a general forum is another. I'm sorry that Bob, Sue, SisDetroit and others have felt the brunt of AH's blasts. Let's hope we can from now on continue to show that we can have compassion and a healthy discussion/debate responsibly.
Yours in Peace and Love,
KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 09:18 am:

Kev,
I've been away for a couple of days and just last night became aware of the " situation "
I suppose if AH is guilty of anything it's being a little over-zealous in his feelings regarding certain unfortunate aspects of the music business.
One of the many things that has endeared me to Soulful Detroit was the civility of the place. Everyone that comes to the forum is just so damn nice. I have made many new friends here and renewed acquaintences of years long past. I suppose this place can become family like and at times families do tend to hit a bump or two. So now that we have that behind us we can and should get back to, as you mentioned, the healty and responsible debate we have all enjoyed here.

By Common (209.2.55.114 - 209.2.55.114) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 12:11 pm:

Hello Everyone,

I'm quite surprised that this interesting dialogue has taken a dramatic turn. I hope everyone can settle their differences & that AH comes back to the forum. He seems to be extremely passionate about the way artists from back in the day have been treated & that's a good thing. Let's hope out of this dialogue that maybe something can be done, not only from the those inside the industry but also by educating the public as well about where said monies are going when we purchased CD's, etc. I find the comments in this thread, mainly by AH, KevGo, Bob & Brian about the industry fascinating & would love to hear more what can be done to remedy this situation.

BTW, speaking of getting lawyers for contracts, I recall reading an article, I think, by Chuck D of Public Enemy, who stated that some of the lawyers who are supposed to representing the interest of the artists are actually more interested in protecting the industry, by being in cahoots with the majors, in terms of the way the contracts are structured. If this is the case, then what is an artist TODAY supposed to do, if these lawyers who are supposed to be working for the artist, are in actually working for the companies themselves? It seems to be a damned if you do or don't situation. Any comments?

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

In a sense Chuck D is right in that an attorney who is negotiating in exchange for a percentage of the deal and who earns their living mostly from working out deals with labels does have a conflict of interest.

This is why an independent consultation is crucial. There are organizations who supply such consultations on a sliding scale. The last I checked about five years ago, one in California, California Lawyers For the Arts, charged less than $100 at the high end.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101 - 136.1.1.101) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 01:04 pm:

The beauty and the horror of the interent are both encapsulated by the fact that this discussion could possibly have spun off from an initial query along the lines of "Was Melvin Franklin really a sweet guy like in the TV movie."

OK, maybe I'm the only one amused by the whole thing, but it is interesting to see how these discussions wend.

Regards,
Ken

By Common (209.2.55.113 - 209.2.55.113) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 01:24 pm:

Hello Ken,

Unfortunately, people tend to forget that there are real flesh & blood people who post on messageboards & forums & sometimes, things can spiral outta of control. Everyone has different personalities & can't always expect someone to "act" the way they *think* they should act, just because they post on line. None of this surprises me since I've had these sort of "encounters" with people whom I *thought* was nice, etc. I've learned that what you "see" is not necessarily what you get, once you meet or speak to a person privately. Oh, well, que sera, que sera! :o)

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101 - 136.1.1.101) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

I know exactly what you mean, Common, but my comment was not so much about how anyone came across through the conversation above as it was about who could have guessed that such a straightforward question would go off on such tangents about artists' rights and racial politics?

All of the above are worthy topics for discussion, but wow, I didn't know you could get there from where we started until I saw it happen.

Regards,
Ken

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:52 pm:

I have certainly found it difficult to identify what people truly mean when they make a point in writing.

Participating in forums when you've had a few beers is not a good idea either!

David
(who is still learning after 11 months and 3 weeks of SD)

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

I also take some of the responsibility for the three or four tiffs we've had in the last year.

Sorry folks.

David

By Geoff Mellor Padgburyman (195.93.34.13 - 195.93.34.13) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:06 pm:

David

You are attempting the impossible. A forum will always attract the knowleadgeable and the insane to varying degrees!

Personally, I find it sad to see so much knowledge disappearing down the drain in such a manner.

By RALPH AKA GUIDO (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:42 pm:

TELL YOU WHAT. MAYBE THE THREAD IS JINXED. IT IS GETTING WAY TOO LONG ANYWAY. LETS DISCONTINUE THIS ONE AND I'LL START A SECOND THREAD. THIS TURKEY IS OFFICIALLY CLOSED. LET US ALL MAKE PEACE AND BEGIN ANEW. CAPICE??? OTHERWISE I'M ALLING IN PAULIE 3 SHOES. THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED...................................................................................CLOSED....SCRAM......CLOSED ...BEAT IT.......