By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 05:56 pm:

Can anyone remember the 45('s) mentioned recently which had rarely been seen.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.164 - 195.92.168.164) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:22 am:

David At one time I had all of the Golden World 45s that are known, not one of them cosy any amount of money, possibly the early pop stuff was the most expensive! Which brings me on to a touchy point. White pop records. When I finally got my head tested I sold some of my Detroit records, simply because they were not particularly good white pop records. How do you feel about this politically incorrect question of white pop / black pop / soul / blue eyed soul ? I know that you and I put Mitch Ryder, Doni Burdick, Dennis Coffey etc up there with the BIG ONES. Would the Flaming Embers be discussed on the site had they not sang on top of those Golden World recorded backing tracks? As part of my present project I am listing all known Detroit recording acts and am having a dilemma as to whether to draw a line some where, as the project is about the SOUL music of Detroit. There will no doubt be plenty of folk out there who wouldn't class Mitch Ryder as Soul, despite recording with the Fabulous Peps. And we would have to admit that our love for him is for more emotive and nostalgic reasons rather than his city of origin. Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:08 am:

I think it's only in hindsight that we sometimes feel it necessary to pigeonhole artists and records we like or dislike. I too have pondered over the uncomfortable question - because the artist is white does that make it a pop record? I think in the final analysis, it's not relevant. I have records by black artists who sound white, and vice versa. Back in the day, all the artists - black or white - were trying to make pop records: records that would be popular. Whether it was the Supremes at Motown or the Relections at Golden World, both were aiming at the Top 40.

A few points to ponder:
- Buddy Holly was booked to appear at the Apollo when That'll Be The Day first charted. From the sound, it was assumed "the Crickets" were a black group.
- One of the most revered names in 50s R&B is Johnny Otis, who is black in all but colour.
- Conversely, does Johnny Mathis belong in Ralph Tee's "Who's Who In Soul Music"?

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:22 am:

Well put Ritchie.

I know that when I first got involved in the Soul Music scene I became embroiled in a "if it's not a black artist I'm not buying it". I think a lot of us went through that, and it's still difficult to shake off 35 years later!

However when putting together the history of Soul Music how could anyone possibly ignore white artist Jerry Woodard's Chant recording? It is fantastic and under no circumstances would you say that he was white. Yet his normal sound was C&W!

If I were you Keith I would input anyone whose 45's (even one 45) sound like the music you love.

I don't envy your task, but I am faced with a similar one on here. At the end of the day you've got to keep an open mind and so have the consumers.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 11:33 am:

Keith,

This whole "if it's white it can't be soul"
argument is ultimately sterile as it its
converse "if it's black it must be soulful"

You mentioned Johnny Mathis - what about people
like Charley Pride, O B McClinton, Stoney Edwards
and around another two dozen black singers who
almost exclusively recorded pure country.

What about people like Lou Rawls, Billy Eckstine
, Arthur Prysock - fine singers but they're not
soul to me and I doubt that Billy Eckstine
ever considered himself a soul singer.

Where do you put the Mighty Clouds of Joy's
late sixties material - is it gospel, is it soul ?

Personally I go by "it's what's in the grooves
that counts" if it sounds "soulful" and has an
emotional impact on you then it's soulful to you.

As for white acts the northern scene has over the years played everything from the Ventures to
Brian Hyland to a whole bunch of groups which
CD compilers classify as "blue eyed soul" but I
wouldn't give houseroom.

Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels recorded a
lot of great records but they're not a soul group
to my mind - they're an R&B / rock group who were
much closer to say James Brown than the Miracles.
Then there's groups like the Magnificent Men who
are a soul group.

Where do you put the Underdogs who recorded "soul"
material but sound to me like an excellent garage
band - not a soul group. Do you go by the origin
of their material ? - does a group covering a soul song automatically become a soul group?
- I think not ( that manages to exclude all those
Rolling Stones' covers !).

If you're going to list all Detroit records do
so but put some sort of classification in your
data base "pop", "garage", "heavy" or whatever.
I'm all for the more information the better - what
I do object to is misreprentation of straight pop
records as "blue eyed soul" - and anybody who tries to tell you that "The Joker Went Wild"
is soul has no idea what they're talking about.

Incidentally you mentioned the Flaming Embers'
Ric Tic records - to be honest I've never rated them but on the other hand their Hot Wax material
is among the best white soul ever recorded - Jerry Plunk could give lessons to the majority
of the current acts who are marketed as "R&B"

I wish that there was an easy answer to this
"problem" but there isn't - you can only go
by what your ears and heart tell you. I listen to
a lot of music ranging from the Monitors to the
Mothers of Invention to the Mamas and Papas - I like it all for different reasons - does that
make me less of a "soul fan" ? - there's a simple
answer to that - "NO"

Sorry if this comes across as a bit incoherent
- it's just some "off the cuff" thoughts.

Incidentally if you're interested in exchanging
info. on Detroit non-soul group contact me off
-forum as I also collect garage rock and can
probably help you in your project.

davidlgordon3@yahoo.co.uk

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.12 - 195.92.194.12) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 12:33 pm:

David, Ritchie, DavieG. Thanks for your thoughts, I bet folk such as Ralph are wondering what all the fuss is about, a good record is a good record and a poor one is a poor one. My problem is for instance, the Reflections' `Romeo & Juliet`, a classic Detroit production, on a classy label with top notch sessionmen, engineers etc. If Ed Wingate had assigned, let's say Freddy Gorman to record it, would it be a classic or a sing-along? I used to have the Reflections LP and probably played it once, they did (in my opinion) some poor records. Some of the early Berry Gordy productions are 100% black but also (in my view) poor music. I guess I'll have to put a note in, as you suggest, Davie, stating that I have drawn that subjective line "here" rather than "there". I guess for me it's often down to the backing track. Take the bobby sox vocals off lots of Solid Hitbound Productions and the like and suddenly it becomes a different record. But that opens up a different can of worms, a lot of US fans doubt if an instrumental, especially orchestrated ones, can be Soul/R&B. Hey David, did you know the bloke in the Reflections that came from Scotland????????????
Keith

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:00 pm:

My friend Dougie Ward always liked to tell the story of the guy from Scotland who was in the Reflections.

Well it is true and his name was/is Dan Bennie who lived just outside Glasgow in a town called Johnstone.
http://www.reflections-music.com/

By ed.wolfrum (165.121.215.91 - 165.121.215.91) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:49 pm:

Hello All:

I think its time to realize that all of this Politically Correct music crap is just that...CRAP!!!

Music Pop or Soul music is just that...music. Whether it was done by a black or white artist or musician is immaterial. How does the song or music stand on its own? That is the operative question. To do anything else is, (and this IS politically correct jargon) racist!!!!

If being black were the operative question on my entry into the recording industry in Detroit and my ability to mix soul were the question I would have been dead meat. Me along with Russ Terrana, Ken Sands, Danny Dallas, Mike McLean, John Windt, Bob Ollsen among others. The fact is the question was do you know and love audio and music? And to that many engineers, musicians and producers said yes, and they were both Black and White. That was the beauty of what happened in here. COLOR did not then, nor does it now matter!!! Soul is not exclusively black or white. Same goes for pop, classical, country or whatever.
Dennis, Jack Brokenshaw, Joe, Bob and the many white horn or string players were as much a part of that sound as anyone. They were part of the FUNKS!!! But let's not limit the FUNKS to black music either. They played on numerous POP, INDUSTRIAL and JINGLE tracks for Artie and the plethora of other industrial and pop producers here as well. I don't know the exact figures but I would bet that their output there equaled or bettered what they did in R&B music.

Music is a part of humanity. It is a wonderful piece of the makeup of mankind. A gift of God to us. To limit its overview is not only a narrow, racist view, but places a human limit on Gods power.

Pax,
Ed Wolfrum

By Mark Speck (65.56.6.253 - 65.56.6.253) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 05:18 pm:

Amen to everything Ed just said!!!

Best,

Mark

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 06:05 pm:

And another amen from this corner!

The Flaming Ember on Hot Wax gets a huge THUMBS UP from me. I can't imagine anyone of any color putting more emotion into "Shades of Green" than Jerry Plunk. (I also think "Bless You" on Ric Tic is a very soulful record. Not one for the dance floors, but it sounds so good on the living room turntable.)

Jeff Lemlich
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:52 pm:

Hi guys!! Eli here.

Some essay indeed. Thumbs up to all of the great commentary.
In all my years as a member of MFSB and my association with Philly music, it has been assumed by many that I was a Black man.
As previously hit upon, "soul" is a God given entity that transcends race, creed and color.
Soul is honesty and believability and integrity in what you do. In all of the regional recording Meccas, there always was a miscegenation of musicians and producers and some of the funkiest "brothers" were white men.
Look at all of the Southern Soul recordings, the deepest of the deep from James Carr to Percy Sledge to Otis to Aretha to the Wicked Pickett.
White musicians were interspersed everywhere.
I always have felt the I have ben truly blessed to have been given the gift of being a "soul brother" and respected by my peers as such.
I have been in the company of paupers to princes and I can truly say the my "soul"has always been first and foremost, an integral part of my existence.

End of sermon

Eli

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:00 am:

Also, kudos to Jerry Plunk.
Westbound number nine is one of the finest soulful vocals in my book.
When sings about "that lazy hound" it gives me goose bumps. Very visual indeed.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.15 - 195.92.194.15) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 05:54 am:

Ed, Mark, Recordboyusa, Eli. Your heartfelt contributions have helped me a lot in simply declaring "This record is good to me" and I could proceed along that path. But as with the rational of this site, I have chosen Detroit's Soul / R&B as the section of the music spectrum I am basing my project upon. I know that the following few examples aren't Detroit recordings but I really rate them as great records - G.L.Crockett, Look Out Mabel. Eddie Fontaine, Nothin' Shakin` & Bobby Charles, I'll Turn Square For You. My project has the title `THE DETROIT FILE` but if it were the `Chicago File` and I included these titles for the exact reasons so eloquently and soulfully stated by you/us all, I would have irrate phone calls from folk saying `Hey, I bought a record blind because it was so highly rated in your SOUL project and it's Rockabilly!
So I suppose I will have to state in my introduction that the records listed are Detroit recordings/productions etc but beyond that there are several musical styles from Sonny Stitt's `Just Dust` on Wingate to the Sixpence on Impact. BUT to be honest this whole debate doesn't really answer my dilemma. The motivation for my project is to bring to the attention of younger and new `Soul/R&B` music lovers what Detroit has to offer before it gets lost or forgotten. At 52, I have had a great deal of pleasure out of Blues/R&B/Soul, especially from Detroit. But when compiling a list of recordings from Detroit, I can't start including and excluding stuff on the grounds of personal taste. I appreciate that probably plenty of folk on the site might rate `Shady Lane` by Sincerely Yours on Impact. BUT because of the SOUL/R&B criteria I have refered to earlier, should it go in? or Dickie & the Ebbtides, recorded up Boston way?? Most people on the site are, let's face it, pretty expert and experienced and we all I guess appreciate good music, be it Kiki Dee or Duke Browner but there are lots of young and inexperienced people out there, especially in the UK, who need weaning into `our` music with some care if we are to see it prospering beyond our life time. In Britain, Rock & Roll for instance is becoming something of a freak show for over 50s and a FEW younger enthusiasts who gather for conventions. What I would like to see as far as Soul is concerned is a continuation of what is happening now in the UK. e.g National Radio (BBC) broadcasting live from all night Soul session (record hops), high Street record stores stocking Soul CD's of the rarer stuff, Northern Soul becoming a part of the entertainment industry at large etc.
On a lighter concluding note Eli, when it comes to goose bumps...just the opening drum roll on Mitch Ryder's `Break Out` or the opening, gutteral scream after the intro guitar and horns on his `You Get Your Kicks` just blow me away!
Keith

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 06:20 am:

Keith

Here is my suggestion, for what it's worth. Your introduction will explain your purpose, and acknowledge the fact that certain areas of Detroit music are outside the scope of your project. (For example pehaps, Del Shannon, the MC5 etc. - fine artists but not Soul-related.)

Personally, I think you will have to make arbitrary decisions, based on "taste". As you say yourself, you - as a more experienced listener - are attempting to guide those who are less-informed. As a result, you are able to draw on that experience to make an informed choice - which artists or records to include, even if they fall slightly outside your original remit.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.167 - 195.92.168.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:31 am:

Ritchie. That's good advice, I bet that if all of us on this site had to nominate our top 20 non-soul records, there would be some remarkable similarities. There must be something that makes us similar in musical outlook and taste. One other thought I had while walking the dog, was that a lot of the guys such as Eli & Ed made/make music for a living and are often proud of a relatively small project, as Ed mentions, may be a small jingle for a radio station etc. I was lucky enough to have Dennis Coffey to myself for a whole day recently and he certainly emphasised the `jobbing` aspect of making music, R&B, R&R, C&W or what ever, it was either a good track or an indiferent one. Just as a chef makes all manner of food, irrespective of his own tastes and can be rightly proud of some particular dish he has created. I am a music consumer and can take or leave things at my whim.
Another consideration I had was that I am the product of being a 60's teenager, totally involved in the American inspired and dictated Mod cult and its dedication to ANYTHING USA. You drank Coke, used US slang, talked about Vietnam etc. Shoes could only be Bass or American Gentleman, Brookes Bros Shirts, London Fog coats etc. and of course the music - 100% US Motown, Atlantic, Stax, Chess, Gamble etc. Also Blues. Definitely NOT the Liverpool cover versions anyway. None of this is of course logical, right or intelligent but it definitely has influenced my outlook. As a music education it soon faultered however as Discotheques began to be very infuential and Bruce Channel, Los Canerios, the Dovells, Dean Parrish, Bobby Paris, Doni Burdick etc made records that we dug, along side the ones we knew were by black American artists. Keith.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:41 am:

Believability and honesty are the name of the game.
To me Willie Nelson has soul because he is believable.
Always on my mind was one of the most honest songs out there.
Patsy Kline when she sang Crazy ( written by Willie Nelson)had heartfelt honesty and to me that is pure soul from the soul.


Eli

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:17 pm:

I think what we should be concentrating on here
is styles of music irrespective of whether the
artist is black, white or whatever - going the other way ultimately ends up in classifying
"white" people by their national / ancestral origins. Are Italian - Americans more soulful
than Armenian - Americans ? The whole thing is ludicrous.

The real problem here is that to most of us
who were teenagers in the sixties and seventies
what we call "soul" isn't what a twenty year old
understands as "soul". We know what we mean by
"R&B" - we mean stuff like Roscoe Gordon, they
hear "R&B" and think Destiny's Child (Gawd help
'em)

The same thing happened with the term "punk"
- "Who Put The Bomp" and other collector mags. in the early to mid seventies used it as a term to
cover band like the Standells and the Chocolate
Watch Band. A younger generation picked up the
term without knowing what it really referred to
and before you knew it the majority of people
thought "punk" was Generation X, Chelsea and all
the rest of them. There is no solution to this
- the language changes as more and more people
use was initially a convenient short-hand term
and within months the term comes to mean something at times completely opposite to its
original intention.

My brain hurts - time for a coffee break

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:46 pm:

True, Davie! To me, "soulful garage" would be the Underdogs, Vagrants, or Rationals, not one of those "modden room" spins!

I've had some members of 60s bands ask me why I called their groups "punk bands", when they sounded nothing like the Sex Pistols or the Misfits. It's hard to explain that "we had that term first" in those 70s fanzines. I guess we all agree that soul is a feel, it's a vibe, it's REAL. I think Brian Hyland or Keith would laugh if you told them someone would consider any of their records "soul" records. In the end it comes down to what moves and grooves you.

Jeff Lemlich
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By John Rhys (63.198.70.120 - 63.198.70.120) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 08:56 pm:

Soul music is exactly what it says....music from the soul. Be the artist Black or White; it makes no difference. Music is God's way of bringing us all together.
The world could use a whole lot more "Soul Music" at this point in time.

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.131 - 65.56.5.131) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:32 pm:

VERY WELL PUT, JOHN!!

Best,

Mark

By KevGo (12.84.107.177 - 12.84.107.177) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:47 am:

KevGo here after spending three mind-bending days in the Motor City (more on that later).
I have to agree with those who feel that soul is rooted in believability and honesty, regardless of color. We need to stop getting hung up on the whole "?Quien es muy soulful?" argument and accept a soulful performance based on the whether the artist is performing from his gut or not. I've heard soulfulness coming from artists such as Eric Clapton, Elton John and (NOTE TO RITCHIE)Johnny Mathis as well as your Detroit/Philly/Chicago/NYC/LA/Southern areas.
Speaking of Mathis, if Ritchie & company has any questions as to whether Mr. Mathis has soul, check out his 1973 Columbia LP "I'm Coming Home" with songs written, arranged & produced in Philadelphia by Thom Bell (with some help from Linda Creed, of course) as well as the duets with Deniece Williams (the 1978 LP "That's What Friends Are For") and his 1984 R&B hit single "Simple."
A word from Mr. Eli regarding the Johnny Mathis/Thom Bell collaboration would be nice.
KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:20 am:

KevGo

No need whatsoever to convince me of the quality of Mr Mathis' performances - and I do agree his work with Thommy Bell was excellent, though - I'm sure you'd agree - it is untypical as regards his recorded output as a whole.

Going right back to my original comments, my point was not to suggest that only Black artists have "soul", but whether certain 1960s records by white artists fall under the (arbitrary) category of "Soul Music" - in response to Keith's question. I truly believe that "Soul" itself comes right from the heart, irrespective of whatever hue the skin surrounding it happens to be.

On a lighter note, can you believe this...?
On one of my frequent trawls through the eBay site in search of "Motown" I came across the following mind-boggling listing in my search results:

NORTHERN SOUL MOTOWN - CHUCK BERRY 45 - MAYBELLINE

Yeah, right ;)

By KevGo (12.84.107.147 - 12.84.107.147) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:22 pm:

Ritchie:
Good ol' EBay, I knew it was good for something (LOL).
KevGo

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:29 pm:

"NORTHERN SOUL MOTOWN - CHUCK BERRY 45 - MAYBELLINE"

Good one! It's called trying to put as many "hot" search words in a title as possible. I wonder if he's also selling any NORTHERN SOUL MOTOWN - BEATLES 45s?

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By Flynny (213.1.133.81 - 213.1.133.81) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 07:31 am:

Funny you should say that as I can think of a couple of NS discs which have Beatles tracks on the flip sides! ;-)

By Ian W (213.122.119.17 - 213.122.119.17) on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 05:47 pm:

Hey Flynny and Jeff, don't bring me bad news!