By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.97 - 195.219.7.97) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 07:33 am:

Here we go,odds&sods,more items I Would like to know if they are True or not.1/Lou Rawls sang with Sam Cooke on his Bring it on home to me 1962 recording.2/Clarence Reid sang with Paul Kelly in a group known as The Del-mires.3/Honey&The Bees,were Nadine Fielder,Gwen Oliver,Ann Wooton and Jean Davis.They formed in 1965,after previously singing together as The Superioettes and The Yum Yums.4/Roy Hamilton was a keen amateur boxer,his fight record was 6 wins and 1 loss,which he wiped out 27 days later in a return bout.5/Timmy Thomas was a session organist for Goldwax records,after recording several tracks himself,he eventually left to become a teacher in Texas.6/Jo Armstead sang in a gospel group prior to joining Ike&Tina Turner as an Ikette in 1961.She recorded as an Ikette on all their Atco recordings between 1961/1963.She left the group in 1964 and moved to the big apple.she survived as a songwriter,many of which were recorded by The Superb Big Maybelle on the Rojac label.7/Freddie Gorman first worked as a postman,after leaving school.He met Berry Gordy while delivering mail to Mrs Gordys house.8/Sylvia Moy,who wrote Im still loving you,first recorded this for Motown records.It was never issued and only exsists on a Motown studio acetate.Later on,the track was successfully recorded by Kim Weston.Sylvia left Motown and became the owner of The Satelite Label.9/In the 1950s Tommy Hunt was a member of The Five Echoes,and lined up alongside Johnnie Taylor,who was also in the group.10/Marlene Barrow of The Andantes,sometimes substituted for Florence Ballard of The Supremes in live shows.Thats all for now,more to follow.Once more any input is fully appreciated.MEL.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:01 am:

Mel,

1 true

2 true

3. not sure about the Superiorettes - they were
the Yum Yums (on ABC)

4. no idea

5. true

6. probably true about the gospel group - she
was in the Ikettes but whether or not she's
on their Atco singles I don't know

7. that's the legend - whether it's true or not
I don't know

8. I don't know about "I'm Still Loving You" -
she did have a label in the eighties called
Michigan Satellite which issued material by
Ortheia Barnes (J J's sister)

9. That's the info. I have

10. True

By Jan (195.38.31.190 - 195.38.31.190) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:26 am:

a Timmy Thomas goldwax recording has been recently rereleased on the Goldwax Story part one on UK Kent records, an instrumental called Liquid Mood

As I recall ( it's at home ) the sleevenotes tell us he was a session guy at Goldwax who got a one off release. When Goldwax folded, he moved to Florida and joined the TK studio people and eventually had a million selling success himself - 'Why Can't We Live Together'

Perhaps he became a teacher after that, Liquid Mood is pretty ordinary.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.104 - 195.219.7.104) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:57 am:

Thanks DavieG,and to you as well Jan,the Timmy Thomas track your referring to isnt called Its My Life is it?Cheers,MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.195 - 67.25.176.195) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:56 am:

Mel did you know that there were two completely different Honey & the Bees' girl-groups from Philadelphia? The one Davie G mentioned is the most popular one.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.68 - 195.219.7.68) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:13 pm:

AH,no I didnt,Jesus,now thats going to cause a bit of hassle.I take it that The Yum Yums must be,have got to be the ones (must be as there on abc)that cut Gonna Be A Big Thing.MEL (P.S.)thanks for mentioning it.

By Mark Speck (64.158.99.41 - 64.158.99.41) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 12:30 am:

I don't know about the Five Echoes, but Tommy Hunt was a member of the Flamingos. He appeared with them for the first time in many years when the group was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

The other Honey and the Bees had previously recorded for Swan as Sugar and the Spices.

Best,

Mark

By AH (63.188.32.59 - 63.188.32.59) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:44 am:

Mark

I think the Swan Honey and the Bees were a different Honey & the Bees. The other Honey & the Bees group from Philly recorded on Academy Records and consisted of Fannie Lee Cobb, Rita Graves and Lulu Martin; they began as the Creations (another common group name). Phil Hurtt who later co-wrote "I'll Be Around" wrote many of their recordings. Fannie also was the Fannie in Fannie & the Varcels, where she fronted three males prior to Honey & the Bees.

There were many groups name Honey & the Bees but only two from Philly that recorded to my knowledge.

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

.2/Clarence Reid sang with Paul Kelly in a group known as The Del-mires.

Almost true, but... not quite. Now if it read "Paul Kelly sang with Clearence Reid"...


Kelly was actually in a group called the Valladeers back in Hialeah, FL (no relation to the Miracle/Gordy group). When it came time for Clarence & The Delmiras to record "Sooner Or Later", Clarence had come down with laryngitis!... so Paul Kelly filled in, singing lead on a record that's credited to Clarence Reid & The Delmiras!

5/Timmy Thomas was a session organist for Goldwax records,after recording several tracks himself,he eventually left to become a teacher in Texas.

I don't know about the teacher part, since he was still in music the last time I saw him. That was close to 15 years ago, so admittedly I'm not sure where he is now.

Thomas WAS a session organist for Goldwax, and recorded two singles for the label on his own. My favorite is his deep soul reworking of the Animals' "It's My Life" (credited to Thomas, Claunch, and Russell, although it's definitely based on the Animals hit). Thomas also says he was on some Mar-Keys sessions. After he moved to South Florida, Thomas recorded "Why Can't We Live Together" for the Konduko label. Henry Stone liked what he heard, and leased the recording for his Glades label. It was Henry's first national hit without distibution from Atlantic. His real bread-and-butter was his independent distribution company, with recording being mainly a side thing. That changed with the Atlantic-Warner Bros.-Elektra merger. As Stone lost a lot of the indy labels that he used to distribute from his one stop, he began to rely more on the recording side of the business. The success of "Why Can't We Live Together" was really the start of TK as an independent giant, competing alongside the big boys while still working out of Hialeah, Florida.

Jeff Lemlich
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By AH (67.25.176.184 - 67.25.176.184) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:51 pm:

Jeff be breaking it down don't he.

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:55 pm:

Givin' it up and turnin' it loose!

I meant to say "Clarence" Reid, not "Clearance" Reid! Maybe I shoulda just said BLOWFLY!

Jeff Lemlich
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By Mark Speck (65.56.6.253 - 65.56.6.253) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 05:06 pm:

"We're ready for clearance, Clarence"

"Roger, Roger. What's the vector, Victor?" ;)

Best,

Mark

By AH (64.159.100.241 - 64.159.100.241) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:44 pm:

Jeff, I'm sure you know about Sam Moore's (Sam & Dave) claim that he wrote "Money" whose writers' credits are Berry Gordy and Janie Bradford. Any truth to this? Moore claim he wrote the song as a teenager for a group he was in that was supposed to have been recorded by Henry Stone but to my knowledge never was. Moore's contention is that Gordy somehow got the song from Stone.

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:59 pm:

I heard that same story from Sam, and I have no reason to doubt that he came up with a song that may have been similar.

But there's also no way that Henry Stone would ever give away a potential hit song to a competitor. That's pretty much what Henry said when I told him what Sam alleged -- he said "that song was so obviously a hit, why would I let anyone else have it"...


And Mark, I may not know the vector, Victor, but I sure like the Victors on Philips. Unfortunately I sold my copy in a moment of weakness!

Jeff
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By AH (64.159.100.241 - 64.159.100.241) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:24 pm:

Knowing the Shenanigans that go on the record business Mark I find it difficult not to believe Sam because the story is too weird for him to have made up. But thanks for the response, being from the Miami scene I knew you heard about it.

Case in point I wrote a song titled "In My Heart" when I was about 15 or 16. Just lyrics. But I mailed it and others to some recording companies, including Stax and Lupine Records.

I was lying in bed one night listening to WJMO and heard "In My Heart" being played, the jock said it was some group I never heard of called Barbara and the Browns. The words were exactly the words I wrote. The next day I went downtown to Record Rendevouz to see if they had the record, they did, and the writers' credits read Deanie Parker and Steve Cropper.

I never made a squawk, other than writing Stax, because I had no proof; you can't copyright lyrics unless you do so as a poem in a book of poems. And the song didn't make any money. Now maybe, as you say, Deannie Parker may have came up with the exact same words I did, ideals do go around, but I doubt it...

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.81 - 195.219.7.81) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 04:56 am:

Many thanks for all the info guys,superb stuff and fully appreciated.MEL.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 05:58 am:

According to a taped interview Graham kindly supplied me, a similar thing happened to the Volumes, who were surprised to hear one of "their" songs on another artist's record, under of course, a different writer credit.

I can relate something not dissimilar myself. Back in the 70s, I once submitted a proposal for a music quiz to BBC local radio. They responded with the usual "thank you for taking the time to write to us..." form letter.

A few months later, a new programme appeared on the air, using almost exactly the format that I'd suggested, and even the same title - "Needle Match". In the credits at the end, it stated that the show was "devised by -----, who produced the programme at our Manchester studios".

By AH (63.188.33.61 - 63.188.33.61) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 06:49 am:

Ritchie I've talked to many songwriters and artists who say that songs they created or helped write came out without them getting any credit.

Kenny Stover lives in Cleveland again, he returned here in 1985. He's Elgie's younger brother and use to live with Marvin Gaye in Detroit and California. Stover says he should have gotten some credit for more songs than he received. He came up with "Let's Get It On," but with different lyrics; Kenny wrote it as a political, protest type song. Marvin was singing it in the studio when Ed Townsend came in and after listening to the song a bit shouted "Let's Get It On," should be a love song and wrote new lyrics, and with Marvin, change the melody. Kenny should have received 10 to 20 percent credit for coming up with the title, which they kept, but never did.

However, in Kenny Stover's case, he isn't mad about it, he thought it was a joy just being around and working with Marvin.

Ed Townsend claims he should be credited with writing and producing some of the tracks on Gaye's What's Going On album, which came out while a lawsuit between Motown and Townsend, involving the use of his studio to record the Isley Brothers (which mysteriously burned to the ground) while they were under contract with Motown was litigating in court.

Another Clevelander Margaret Foxworth says that she should be credited as songwriter on many of the songs on Al Green's Belle album. But all she received was credit for backing vocals and some type of voice arrangement mention. At the time she didn't make a fuss because she was romantically involved with AL; she still doesn't sound that upset about it, just states it as a matter of fact.

"I'm Coming Home" was first recorded by the Cleveland group Truth, who Foxworth toured and sang with as a member. On the album, the songs' writers credit was Dennis Edwards, and other guys from Cleveland. When Edwards rejoined the Temptations "I'm Coming Home" came out on the Power album with the Temptations' as the songwriters.

I could go on and on...

By Mark Speck (64.156.67.221 - 64.156.67.221) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:31 pm:

I like the flip of the Victors' record, Jeff, better than the official A-side.

I had a chance to score it in a trade with one of my English contacts but passed over it.

BTW, for those of you who've been living under a rock, that clearance/Clarence exchange is from the movie, "Airplane!" (Peter Graves and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar).

Best,

Mark

By AH (63.188.32.101 - 63.188.32.101) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:43 pm:

1. Reggae artist Grand View Prairie lost a copyright case against Mick Jagger regarding the song "She's the Boss," despite the fact that Prairie's version was released before Jagger's, which appeared on Mick's first solo album.

2. Despite having his papers in order and prior access to two of the parties involved in the intellectual property theft, songwriter Larry Friedman lost in civil court to Michael Bolton, Laura Branigan and Doug James over the song "How am I Supposed to Live Without You." Not only did Friedman have the earlier copyright he had used Branigan and James to make demos so he had prior access--still he lost and racked up a ton of legal bills.

3. "I'll Be Your Everything" by New Kids on the Block is a twin of a song that hit in 1975 by Percy Sledge. Yet in a court of law the member of New Kids on the Block who claims to have created the song without prior knowledge of the Sledge hit prevailed.

4. One of the songs an obscure Stax group (the Drapels) wrote and recorded in the mid sixties was later redone by the Wu-Tang Clan, somehow the publishers of the Drapels' song won the case in court and the two Drapels' members were added to the song credits. Ironically, one of the Drapels who wrote the song, Mary Frierson a.k.a. Wendy Rene, children had the Wu-Tang Clan CD with their mother and uncle's song on it and nobody recognized it cause it was completely different. The Friersons didn't know about it until they got a big check in the mail.

5. A similar thing happen to Freedom, an obscure band from Jackson, MS. A song they recorded for Malaco Records was redone by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (so they say). I've listened to both and see no connection, similar to the Drapels' case, but a judge ruled in a favor of Malaco Publishing and the two writers in Freedom.

Basically, all a copyright mean is that you can have the case heard in court; it doesn't mean you're going to win even if you did all you were supposed to do and your copyright has the earliest date. Without a copyright you simply lose if the defendant has one. These cases are so iffy that attorneys requred big bucks to take them to court. If the song in question is not a big hit, it's not worth the effort. And in Friedman's case even a substantial song wasn't worth his effort in the end.