By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.15 - 195.219.7.15) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 08:20 am:

I Found these facts from an old magazine,if any are not correct,I would appreciate somebody Letting me know.Thanks.1/Barbara Mercer was lead singer on The Styletts recording on the Pillar Label,Too Far Too Turn Around(an excellent dancer).2/Yvonne Allen recorded with Theresa Lindsey and Wilson Picket before joining The Elgins as replacement for Sandra/saundra? Mallet.3/Clarence Reid sang with Paul Kelly as part of the Del-mires group.4/Clyde Wilson,aka Steve Mancha,sang as one of the Two Friends who had an american hit with Just a little too much too hope for on Motown in 1962.With Marvin Gaye on drums.5/The Holidays were formed in Chicago by Jimmy and Jack Holland,they began their careers as members of the Forsandos group in 1958.6/Carolyn Crawford signed for Motown after winning a talent contest aged 14,qualifying for the contest by collecting bread wrappers.7/The Andantes(Louvain Demps,Jackie Hicks,Marlene Barrow and later Pat Lewis)sang on over 20,000 releases between 1962/1972 as backing vocalists.8/Minnie Ripperton a member of The Gems,developed a five octave vocal range and had intended to become an opera singer.9/The Detroit based Fortune label (owned by Devora Brown)recorded many of their studio recordings in dirt floored backrooms,with session men etc.having to step over burgers strewn on the floor,to blow/sing their solos on one microphone(sounds a bit iffy to me).10/Barbara Mason was the next door neighbour of Bill Oxydine,a member of the Larks.He let Barbara sing with her vocal group(formed in 1961)at their shows.On Barbaras debut single Trouble Child,on the Crusader label,The Larks featured on backing vocals.end of part one.MEL.

By AH (67.25.177.229 - 67.25.177.229) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 09:09 am:

Mel

The Forsandos should be the Fresandos. They cut a few local Detroit recordings like "I Mean Really." I always thought they were from Detroit. Otis Williams mentions them in his book as one of the neighborhood groups he admired. Jimmy and Jack Holland later formed the Holidays.

I hear Fortunes' setup was pretty crude.

Most of the other stuff sounds pretty on point as to what has been reported throughout the year.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.104 - 195.219.7.104) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 10:05 am:

Hey AH,many thanks for taking time to reply,any idea why the set up at Fortune was Like it was?was it down to money or what?I was being rather diplomatic in what I mentioned,as I dont want to rock the boat with anyone.Cheers,MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.215 - 67.25.176.215) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 10:26 am:

I never visited the place but have seen a picture (on this site) of the front of the building. The Browns' ran a record store; the recording took place in a room behind the record store.

The Two Friends (Clyde Wilson and Wilbert Jackson) later became defacto Motown artists when the label purchased Gwen and Harvey Fuqua's setup. Nothing was ever released by them or most of the artists involved in that transaction except the Spinners, Jr. Walker, Shorty Long, and Ann Bogan who later became a member of the Marvelettes. As songwriters Wilson and Jackson had a few cuts released on other Motown artists.

Incidentally, members of the Five Quails (who live in Cleveland [they recorded on Harvey]) said they were at the studio when Bogan and Shorty Long recorded some duets that never came out. Both were short and the two would have been a dynamic stage act. Ann & Shorty.

Gaye was indeed there, mostly drumming, but it's also possible he made some recordings as well. But I've not heard even an inkling of this occuring.

Junior Walker played on some of the Tri-Phi/Harvey recordings, including that sweet sax in the Five Quails' exquisite "It's Been a Long Time."

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.13 - 195.219.7.13) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:15 am:

Thanks AH,considering Fortunes state,building wise.Some excellent tracks were cut by some great acts,i.e.Choker Campbell,Melvin Davis and the Nite Sounds,Flaming Embers,Five Jets with Roquel Billy Davis,Dave Hamilton(&ThePeppers?),Hi-Fidelities(became The Contours),Andre Williams with the following groups/artists,The Don Juans?,Gino Purifoy?Inspirations,Gino Parks,Gino&five Dollars?,Can you shed any light on any of these who recorded on Fortune records.Nick Forrest,Lee(Moore)&The Leopards.Id love to hear the Ann Bogan&Shorty Long duetts,I agree about the Sax from Jnr.on the Five Quails track,have you heard My Love and I Thought also by the Quails/Five Quails.Must just tell you a funny thing,a friend and myself met Clyde Wilson/Steve Mancha at an all-nighter in the u.k.He wasnt appearing,but came along with if I remember correctly,Edwin Starr,who was appearing,anyway Steve Mancha for us,was/is one of our favourite artists out of Detroit and on asking for his signature,couldnt find anything to write it on,so my mate pulls a 5pound note out and Sreve gladly signs.After the night,i asked to see the signed note when unbelievably my mate realises that he had spent it.MEL.

By AH (67.25.177.177 - 67.25.177.177) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:22 am:

LOL

Mel, the Five Quails' Harvey tracks, as well as the Spinners' Tri-Phi tracks, Challengers III, and Loe & Joe sides can be found on a CD available via Dead Dog Records. "I Thought" is nice too.

Steve Mancha is one of my favorite singers as well. Thanks for the Five Jets (Roquel Billy Davis a.k.a. Tyran Carlo) info. I couldn't remember what group he was involved with.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.20 - 195.219.7.20) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:52 am:

No probs AH,thank you for taking the time out to reply with some helpfull information,Later.MEL.

By uardanjie (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:17 pm:

Hello!

I like to know if Roquel Billy Davis still
among the living?

U

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:18 pm:

Hi Mel.

Fortune was around for a long time, so no doubt its studio setup (like its studio location, which changed twice) underwent a lot of revisions over the years. But according to Melvin Davis, there was only one microphone in the studio when he was hanging out there at the beginning of the '60s. No one has ever mentioned the studio floor to me, but I agree with you that the report that it was dirt sounds iffy.

I don't know anything about Minnie Ripperton's opera aspirations, but she did have an astounding five-octave range. As you may know, she also recorded as Minnie Epperson.

The Andantes data (20,000 releases in a 10-year period) is surely incorrect, even if the word "releases" is replaced with "recordings." That would be 2,000 songs a year, or nearly 10 a day once you exclude weekends and holidays. Even if you take away one of the zeroes, 2,000 songs in 10 years sounds high to me, though it's at least within the realm of possibility.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.13 - 195.219.7.13) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:35 pm:

Joe,many thanks for the input,I agree with you on the Andantes thing,this has always sounded a bit dubious.I have a track by The Gems which was a big sound on the Rare/Northern Soul scene at one time,called Ill Be There on the Riverside Label.(4590)which is absolutley 1000 mph.If you know it,was Minnie Ripperton on it?I Always liked her pop hit,Loving You,which let everyone hear in parts just how good her voice was.Its a pity she is no longer with us.Cheers Joe.MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.22 - 67.25.176.22) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:46 pm:

The Andantes on 20,000 releases in a 10 year period has as much validity as Wilt Chamberlain and his 20,000 (or whatever the number was) sexual conquests. Maybe they meant different compilations and albums their vocals appeared on in that time span.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:01 pm:

This photograph was taken on September 10th 2001.

It shows the building from the rear. I am outside the building taking the shot. The studio starts at the back wall and ends just inches behind the VDU sitting against the left hand wall.

It just goes to show how tiny these premises could be.

There was definitely a floor, tiled I think.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:19 pm:

David, what goes through your mind when you see this? I find it disturbing, although accept in a commercial world, we have this type of thing. At least we have the music in our hearts and soul.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

Carl,
You were reading my mind. I find the picture to be somewhat eerie in a sad sort of way. I suppose I'm grateful that there was SOMETHING for David to photograph.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

Correct Ralph.

To be honest, finding any building once associated with our wonderful music is a bonus.

One third of addresses are now gone, and have never been photographed to my knowledge.

Fury13 and Marilyn Bond (I think Marilyn was involved) were actually trying to purchase the building for use in a museum project.

Only a few weeks (days?) after this was taken the building became a vacant lot.

At least here, we have something to go on for historical purposes.

The following day, September 11th, was much more disturbing.

David

By Andy Rix (195.93.34.13 - 195.93.34.13) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:33 pm:

The Gems featuring Minnie Ripperton were Chicago based & released stuff on Chess .... The Gems who cut 'I'll be there' were from New York & were part of Gloria Toote's Tru-Glo-Town stable of artists ..... the lead singer was Louise Bethune who still lives in NY

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.23 - 195.219.7.23) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:36 pm:

Thanks Carl,appreciated.MEL.

By AH (64.159.100.215 - 64.159.100.215) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

The Chicago Gems biggest record was "I Can't Help Myself," it was the only one by them the jocks in Cleveland ever played. They did a show here once with the Radiants, Carolyn Crawford, Nella Dodds and one or two other acts at the WHK Auditorium. At this time they were five foxy girls who everybody thought were sisters but were not, Raymond Minor accompanied them on piano. I was in Junior High (now middle school) at the time and our music teacher Mr. Oliver Luck was playing trombone on the show with the house band. I thought it was so strange that our music teacher was playing in the band on a soul show. He was so straight and staid in school.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 05:43 pm:

David,Then I can only repeat what I've said before. We owe you a lot for your efforts in documenting as many sites to the best of your ability.That will stand forever.

By Fury13 (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 10:31 pm:

I have heard from many people that the Fortune Records studio (the rear 18 X 40 "garage" section of 3942 Third Avenue) originally had a dirt floor when the Browns moved their company to that address in October 1956. I'll have to ask Gino (Purifoy) Parks about that the next time I talk to him. He'd most likely remember it too. When I viewed the building in 2001, there was a bare cement floor at the rear, and it was evident that it had been poured separately from the floor in the front section, which was finished off with tile.

Marilyn Bond (actually, she wasn't involved in trying to save the building, that was myself and another investor) also swears there was a dirt floor back there in the old days. She knew the Browns well, and she was in the building many, many times.

"Bacon Fat" was the first song of note recorded in the building (by Andre Williams and the New Group: Steve Gaston, Bobby Calhoun, Jay Johnson and Gino Parks), in late 1956. In fact, three of the biggest Fortune discs were recorded at 3942 Third. Besides "Bacon Fat" (which reached #9 Billboard R&B after it was purchased by Columbia's Epic label), "Village Of Love" by Nathaniel Mayer & the Fabulous Twilights (nationally, it made #22 Billboard pop and #16 R&B in spring 1962, while reaching #8 in NYC and #2 in Chicago) and "Mind Over Matter" by Nolan Strong & the Diablos (regional hit, fall 1962) were waxed there.

The early Diablos stuff, like "The Wind" (1954), was recorded at the 11629 Linwood location (Fortune headquarters from 1951-1956 and now also a vacant lot).

The setup at 3942 Third was primitive. Recording equipment was all one-track into an Ampex 350, I believe, and there was some sound-deadening material hung from the walls. Many people who were around Fortune recording sessions claim that Jack and Devora Brown got the unique, raw Fortune sound through a mixture of "feel" and luck.

The concrete-block building was built in 1950; architecturally, it was totally unremarkable. It was torn down on Oct. 27, 2001 by the owner of the property, with whom we had been negotiating. Ironically, I had learned that very evening that the final investment capital needed to buy the building (the owner wanted $25,000, or close to it, for the roofless shell) had been secured, so I drove by to view the building on the next day, Oct. 28, to celebrate... and saw nothing there. Wish we could have put the deal together a couple of days earlier.

By Mark Speck (65.58.51.223 - 65.58.51.223) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 01:08 am:

In addition to her work with the Gems and as Minnie Epperson, Minnie Riperton also recorded for Chess as Andrea Davis. After the Gems, she was one of the singers in the psych-soul act Rotary Connection.

Best,

Mark

By David Meikle (213.122.13.180 - 213.122.13.180) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:36 am:

Thanks for dome great information Fury.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.22 - 195.219.7.22) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 06:51 am:

Many thanks Fury13,and thanks to everybody else,some magic information has come out.I am totally blown away by some of the facts etc. that are passed on by guys/gals that are closely in touch with artists/past&present,or closely linked in some way to artists etc.with the way they so unselfishley give details on things that Id never of thought,in my wildest dreams,I would ever have any hope to have shared with.I cant seem to keep away from my computer.(back to work monday,thankfully)So a big thanks to you David and everybody connected with the running of things,and many thanks to the people Ive been in touch with.MEL.

By David Meikle (213.123.47.250 - 213.123.47.250) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 07:12 am:

Thanks Mel.

I liked the first item on this thread a lot. So thanks go to you for bringing out some wonderful facts.

When I spoke to Barbara Mercer last September I asked her about the small picture of her which appeared on the front of one of the last Groovesville cd's.

She said it was an extract from a Styletts photograph. Graham would give you the answer to the lead singer pointer. Fortunately, for him, he is in Detroit right now.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:08 am:

Joe,

Re Minnie Epperson being Minnie Riperton.

Are you sure about this ? As far as I know
Minnie Epperson recorded in Houston at the
time Minnie Riperton was going under the name Andrea Davis. Minnie R. was a member of the Rotary
Connection by the time the last Minnie E. single
was issued. It's years since I heard Minnie E.
but they don't sound at all alike to my ears.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.104 - 195.219.7.104) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:03 am:

David and DavieG,have you heard The Styletts track on Pillar?I first heard it about 1985 or thereabouts,it was a rarity then so god knows what daft price is on it today.Mind you,I suppose if I had the wedge then I would buy it.It has certainly kept its obscurity.MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.195 - 67.25.176.195) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:53 am:

Minnie Ripperton also was not an original member of the Gems who began recording as the Lovettes on Checker where they cut two singles. They made a lateral move to Chess Records and became the Gems and had two releases under that name before Ripperton joined replacing Vandine Harris. Reference: Soul Harmony Singles 1960 - 1999.

The guy who accompanied the Gems at the WHK concert was Raynard Miner.

A CD of Minnie Ripperton and Gems' songs is disappointing because it only features the Gems recordings that Ripperton participated on and their sole little hit "I Can't Help Myself" wasn't included.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:10 am:

If it's not yet graced a cd then I haven't heard it.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.68 - 195.219.7.68) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:05 pm:

Hey AH,Somebody did mention The lOVETTES,and Minnie,is it The same Lovettes that recorded the classic Little Miss Soul on Carnival records,or are things getting a little bit mixed up here,MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.223 - 67.25.176.223) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:20 pm:

No that was a different group altogether. Ronald McCoy who worked with them in the studio and on the road (he sang with the Topics on Carnival) says they were bad. They stepped and wore white gloves on stage.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.166 - 195.92.168.166) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 01:47 pm:

Hi Mel Before Andre Williams went to the Fortune label he started out in the Cavaliers- Andre (baritone), Albert `Pee Wee` Bell (baritone), Nathaniel Tucker(bass), Johnny Pruitt (1st tenor) and James `Brother` Issac (2nd tenor). Although very young they performed all over Chicago and into Indiana along side such greats as the Moonglows & Starlighters. They never recorded despite submitting a demo tape to VJ. They changed their names to the Sheppards and issued `Sherry` / `Mozell` for United Records in Chicago but by this time A.W. & Pee Wee had split. A.W. then went to the 5 Thrills (Fred & Obie Washington, Gilbert Warren, Oscar Robinson, Levi Jenkins & A.W.) who sang on `Wee Wee Baby` on Parrot Records. Still only 15 he then joined the 5 Echoes, who fluctuated between Tommy Hunt, Walter Spriggs, Johnny Taylor, Count Sims, Earl & Herbert Lewis, Jimmy Marshall & A.W. (A.W. replaced Tommy Hunt) I don't know if they recorded. He then went to Detroit and joined the 5 Dollars (James Drayton, Lonnie Herd, Charles Evans & A.W.) and recorded for Fortune F27, 28, 45 & 46. in 1955.His first `solo` effort was with the Don Juans, (Gino Parks, Steve Gaston, Bobby Miller, `JW` & A.W.) J.W. is almost certainly Joe Weaver as his next recording (as A.W. `Mr Rhythm`) was with the Joe Weaver Orch. F48/49, a remake of `Mozelle` in 1955. This takes us up to where FURY13 comes in a couple of messages ago. Incidentally `Bacon Fat` by A.W. & his New Group on Epic 9196 was originally issued on Fortune 831 as `How To Do The Bacon Fat` by the Five Dollars.
Keith.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 01:55 pm:

Does anyone have any information regarding the Magic City label of Detroit and the Mutt label that was based in Inkster? I came across some singles by the Sophisticates and Milton Harris on the Mutt label and Mad Dogs & the Pups on Magic City that were quite good. I believe the Funk Brothers may have played on these sessions and the team of Bridges/Knight/Eaton may have produced and written some material for both labels. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, KevGo.

By AH (67.25.177.242 - 67.25.177.242) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:00 pm:

Mad Dog & the Pups is one of the great vocal group names of all times. Almost as good as Bull & the Matadors and better than the Regal Dewey. There's a website that lists all the singles from both of the labels you mentioned, Kev.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:11 pm:

From forum regular Dave Flynn (Flynny).......
http://www.capitolsoulclub.homestead.com/DetroitLabelsLtoPkey.html

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:13 pm:

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

Magic City will be featured in a webisode "SoulfulDetroit2" near New Year time.

The label was owned by Ernest Burt.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:25 pm:

You can see Oliver Cheatham's name on the credits of that 45.

His knickname was Butch.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.113 - 195.219.7.113) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

Keith Rylatt,thats magic mate,youve filled in a few blanks for me,cheers.Regards the Mad Dog item,I Have a large promotional shot of all 4(The Pups)Lead singer,Kevin Mannings,James Ferguson,Rodney Jones(no relation to The RnB Time artist,E.Rodney Jones,who was chicago and not Detroit I think)and Frederick Ferguson.All are stood on top of a car with Mad Dog(an alsation sat in the front of them)They formed in 1967,had a few Local hits while pacted to The Magic City LABEL.The title of the piece is Mad Dog and the Pups,The way they looked back in 1970.It states that the 4 Detroiters were 4 youngsters come wide boys.And they all look shady stood on a car wearing huge crazy hats along with the dog.Also says they shared the same bill with Bobby Franklin,Millie Jackson,Fantastic 4 and Clarence Jackson.I Had a 45 by them on Magic City a long time ago.Was it called Why did you Leave me girl?MEL.

By recordboyusa (67.34.73.196 - 67.34.73.196) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:57 pm:

I really rate Andrea Davis' B-side, "You Give Me Soul". As I'm stuck in the cultural wasteland that is Miami, I don't know if it's getting spins anywhere, but in my opinion it SHOULD be getting spins!

Jeff Lemlich
http://pub64.ezboard.com/blimestonelounge

By uardanjie (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:57 pm:

Can anybody answer my question?

Is Roquel billy Davis still living?

Please!!!

U

By AH (64.159.100.241 - 64.159.100.241) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

I'm sure he is. He use to work for a big advertising agency in New York; I believe he's at another place now. A search under "Billy Davis Coco Cola" might turn up something.

He's obviously a very private person. I've never seen an interview or even a good profile about him.

By Joe Moorehouse (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:08 am:

Re Andrea Davis: You Gave Me Soul is a nice uptempo track, but it's on the slower flip, Lonely Girl, where you can really hear that this is Minnie Riperton--she effortlessly traverses several octaves and, while it's not as showy as her performance in Lovin' You, I think it's a better song.

Re Minnie Epperson: The single I have by her is from '65, so it predates Rotary Connection by a couple of years. It was sold to me by a knowledgeable dealer as early Riperton, and because of the similarity of the names, I didn't question the information. But in playing it again now, I'd agree with Davie G. that it doesn't sound like Riperton and is probably not her.

Re Mad Dog and the Pups: I hope the webisode on these guys includes the promo picture that's been described above. If it's the one I've seen, it's a hilarious blend of cowboy style (ten-gallon hats, big belt buckles) and urban chic (big Cadillac, tough-guy poses, early '70s downtown clothes). I was shocked to see how young these guys were, but I guess that's why they were called the Pups. They were from the East Side, and a friend of theirs told me that they went on to cut a single on Epic as the Livin' Inn in '75, though I can't confirm it. The same source said that DeShawn Burt, one of Ernest Sr.'s sons, has the rights to all the material (which presumably includes the stuff on Burt, Mello, and any other labels Ernest Sr. owned, too). I'd like to talk to his sons myself.

That Young Sirs record has to be one of the strangest pieces of wax to come out of Detroit. All those jungle noises laid over the top of an otherwise pretty conventional song...

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:38 am:

Roquel Billy Davis is alive and well in New York City. I had a lunch meeting with him two weeks ago with a colleague of mine and we spent hours talking about the Detroit/Chicago music scene and why he left to go into advertising (a field he still works in). He owns Chevis Music (the publishing firm he started with Leonard Chess) and stays in contact with the artists he's worked with. His fondest memory was when Minnie Riperton joined the Chess family in the mid 1960s. He said that he tried to get her as much vocal work as possible and felt that her talent was way ahead of the times. As for the info regarding the Mutt & Magic City labels, thanks so much. If there is any more information please let me know (is Ernest Burt still alive? Who was the owner of Mutt Records?). Thanks again!

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:59 am:

In Berry Gordys book To Be Loved it states that Billy Davis passed away!! Maybe the New York guy is an imposter. I'll go with the Berry Gordy info anyday, as imposters do exist as in the case of a Virgil Ginyard of Philly who pased himself of as an Elgin even going on the tele describing his days at Motown and on the road. He is currently incarcerated.
The was even a fake Bobby Eli at one time, can you believe that!!!!

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:09 pm:

Bobby,

That's a different Billy Davis - the one who died
was a long time BG friend who had nothing to do with the music business other than that he was
Berry's gofer / valet / whatever.

Thanks for the info on Virgil Ginyard - what's the
betting he'll start up the Prisonaires when he gets out - or the Escorts while he's still inside.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

There were people who told me to my face that I was not me!!
It seems as though a lot of folks assumed that I was a Black man because of the music that I was and am associated with. Little did they know that they were conversing with the genuine article, a Jewish, white albeit swarthy "soul brother".
I always said that when I was born there was another baby lying next to me who was Black and when the souls trickled down from heaven to enter our respective earthly bodies, an breeze entered the room and somehow the white soul entered the black baby and the Black soul entered mine thus somewhere in the ghetto there lives a Black man who drinks Budweiser beer and loves to watch hockey games as well as cricket!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:42 pm:

Bobby - Trust me, the gentleman I had lunch with was Roquel Billy Davis and he is the gentleman who in the Berry Gordy book is pictured with BG and Brunswick Records proxy Nat Tarnopol in a group photo that was taken at a meeting of Detroit record people in the late 1950s. Roquel shared many stories of his work with Berry and Gwen Gordy, especially his early partnership in Anna Records and Ro-Gor Music Publishing as well as how he started working with the Chess Brothers. A nice, classy gentleman.

By Flynny (213.122.202.64 - 213.122.202.64) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 02:20 pm:

Going all the way back to point #2 of Mel's...Yvonne Allen did sing with those Correc-Tone artists before joing the Elgins...and also as a solo artist under her maiden name, Yvonne Vernee!

By AH (67.25.127.205 - 67.25.127.205) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

There were two Billy Davis's in Berry Gordy's life. Roquel "Billy" Davis a.k.a. Tyran Carlo who wrote songs with Berry, sang in the Five Jets, produced the Four Tops first recording as the Four Aimes, ran Anna Records with Gwen Gordy and later became the A & R Director at Chess Records.

The other Billy Davis was a childhood friend of Berry's who was a dapper dresser and later worked as Berry's personal valet.

I suspect the Tyran Carlo alias was to avoid confusion with the other Billy Davis. But then he could have used Roquel Davis. Who knows.

Chevis Publishing was a combination of Chess (Che) and Davis (vis).

By Ed Wolfrum (165.247.229.233 - 165.247.229.233) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Hey Eli,

I was on the coast doing a session in the late 80's and was told by one of the session guys that I had to be an imposter as Ed Wolfrum was both BLACK and WAS DEAD!!! Further, that he had done a session on the coast with the real Ed Wolfrum. Now I know where they got the name for the film "Dead Man Walking," I'm him!!!

A search on the AMG All Music Guide shows Artie Fields having passed away in the 1950's. As may be confirmed by Dennis Coffee, myself and many of the Detroit gang, he is VERY MUCH ALIVE and had dinner with the gang of us at the Clawson Steak House on Friday.

So much for that!!

Pax,
Ed Wolfrum

By AH (67.25.127.205 - 67.25.127.205) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:33 pm:

An African-American magazine did a pictorial article on Billy Davis (Berry's friend) not the Roquel "Billy" Davis songwriter some years ago. I can't remember the name of the magazine as it was only in business a couple of years.

Both Billy Davis's are pictured in Berry Gordy's book. The friend Billy Davis is shown with Berry out in California where he accompanied him to a boxing match.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

In that case, it's perhaps fortunate that Motown's first British female artist was Kiki Dee, and not Billie Davis. Recalling BG's partiality to "special relationships" with his femme singers, that lady's presence would have made "To Be Loved" a very complicated story to follow!