By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.28 - 195.219.7.28) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 07:15 am:

Can anybody tell me who the guitarist and the saxophonist are who feature in Bill Doggetts track titled Honkey Tonk.Many thanks.MEL.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 08:40 am:

The line-up on Honky Tonk was:
Bill Doggett - organ
Clifford Scott - tenor sax
Billy Butler - gtr
Carl Pruitt - bass
Beresford "Shep" Shepherd - drums

Recorded 19th June 1956, at Beltone Studios, New York - just three days before my second birthday (not that they were aware of it!)

By AH (67.25.176.11 - 67.25.176.11) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 08:58 am:

Ritchie was the drummer's name really Beresford? No wonder he went by "Shep."

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 09:17 am:

Andrew - well, those are the details according to the liner notes of a compilation of King classics that I have - Volume Five of the "Carats" series through Polydor UK in the mid-seventies.

By AH (67.25.176.11 - 67.25.176.11) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 09:23 am:

I don't doubt that Beresford is his name I'm just curious why a parent would pick that one.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 09:55 am:

If you were in a band in Detroit in the 50's and 60's Honky Tonk was a mandantory part of your repretoir. A band was measured by how well they played this incredible song.

By AH (67.25.127.249 - 67.25.127.249) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:15 am:

I remember Honky Tonk as a kid. Bill Doggett always played at Gleasons when he came to Cleveland during my remembrance anyway. Gleasons was about a block from where Edwin Starr lived. Ironically, it was Doggett who gave Starr his first real break.

As for Beresford, I guess if everybody was named Andrew, David, Ralph, Richard, Jose, Muhammad or Englebert the world would be a dull place. Maybe I should start typing "LOL" when I make a funny.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.43 - 195.219.7.43) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:38 am:

Many thanks Ritchie,much appreciated.MEL.

By Dick Emerys ghost (195.93.50.13 - 195.93.50.13) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:41 am:

Yes ..please do! By the way that's two of my names that have been mocked by list posters.
What's WRONG with my name? Why do people laugh when i introduce myself?.

Beresford "Honky Tonk" Norman
LOL

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 11:13 am:

There are two songs that I can listen to over and over again and never get sick of them. One is "Honky Tonk". The other is "Shotgun". Somehow I keep thinking of "Shotgun" as an instrumental like HT though of course it is not.

- Gary Rosen

By AH (64.159.100.157 - 64.159.100.157) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 11:44 am:

Dick,

It just that I come from a predominate African-American family and don't know of anyone name Beresford. Buckwheat either for that matter. Plenty of Emmitts though.

In fact, when Ritchie typed it, it was the first time I'd ever seen such a name. Is it Scottish or English? I hear my name is Scottish and quite common over there--Andrews all over the place.

Beresford could very well be a Jr. you know.

By thecount (166.90.224.99 - 166.90.224.99) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

RALPH,CAVOYA,(as mickey shore would say)your right about the early days of just starting out as a nieborhood group and "HONKY TONK" being a must learn and judged by the way you could play it.That truley was one of our first learned songs(starting our group5ive Invictas 1958)then came "CARAVAN".Probably practiced that song for about 3hree months.Then the all time favorite and must learn "WALK DONT RUN"(THE VENTURES).this came very easy but was always a fun song to do along wiyh "PERFIDIA".so many times we were acussed of being "THE VENTURES",our sound was so close to their sound,but the public always said watching you guys play,you are really having fun and it dont look like your doing it as a must do because of a job.But thats what the "VENTURES" songs brought to us was enjoyment and showing our style of fun performing.I guess you could call it showing off.I can probably take most of the blame for going through so many members of the group because I always wanted everything to be so perfect.We were so well liked by so many big time artists and the "ROCK AND ROLL HEROS,but all our acomplishments seemed to be from these stars who could point us in the right direction to record on major lables.MARV JOHNSON helped us on getting on UNITED ARTISTS,and to this day I still say MARY WELLS got us on 20th.CENTURY FOX.She always refered to me as the skinny black haired drummer.I only wish we could of been as successful as you guys RALPH,and could of become a part of the "MOTOWN" crowd,But know what? I would do it all over again the same way as in the beginning,it was the good times and the fun of playing and meeting all the STARS and the fine talent that came only from "THE MOTOWN" SHAKE IT EASY RALPH "COUNT"

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 04:48 pm:

Hey Count,
I think you did just fine in your career.Not to many of us can boast of being signed to the labels you were signed to.It's all Rock & Roll brotha......

By Karyl (207.69.99.186 - 207.69.99.186) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 11:04 pm:

I'm so happy to see others who appreciate Bill Doggett and Honky Tonk. To this day when I feel "down", I can listen to that song and it LIFTS my spirits! I can almost smell the gym at the school hop and see my saddle shoes. LOL! Other than the great SAX and the guitar at the end, I love the voices in the background with the clappin!. Oh you got me started! ;-)

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.12 - 65.56.5.12) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:53 am:

He played here in Cleveland for years at the Theatrical. One of my biggest regrets in recent years was that I did not go to see him before he died.

Bill Doggett's music was always worth listening to.

Did Edwin appear on any records with him or did he just tour with him?

Best,

Mark

By Sue (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:57 am:

For some reason, the guitar part in the middle of "Honky Tonk" has always been one of my favorites.

Don't ask me why, I haven't a clue.

By AH (65.132.79.39 - 65.132.79.39) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 01:03 am:

To my knowledge he just toured with Doggett. I forgot about the Theatrical on Short Vincent. Bobby Wade, another singer who spent time in Cleveland before relocating to Las Vegas had a steady gig on SV as well.

I forgot to mention there were two phases of Saru Records. The first was when the company was located downtown on Payne; Lou Ragland was the A&R guy then. The artists were the Out of Sights, Michael Bell and others; I never frequented the company at this time. The second was on Miles Avenue when the O'Jays' Bobby Massey handled A & R. The same guy owned both phases of Saru.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 10:57 am:

Andrew,

About your name being Scottish - do you mean
"Andrew" or "Hamilton" ?

Andrew's a common Scottish name usually abbreviated to Andy or Drew. I doubt that it's
Scottish in origin as there are equivalents in
every European language I can think of - Andre,
Andreas, Andrzej, Anders .....

Hamilton's definitely Scottish - Hamilton's
a town about 10 miles south east of Glasgow
- I went to school there.

By AH (67.25.177.177 - 67.25.177.177) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:16 am:

Thanks Davie

I meant both Andrew and Hamilton, which numerology add up to number 22, which can't be reduced to a single digit. Each name individually add up to 11, which also can't be reduced. You have to lump the two 11s together; 22 is a strange numerological number I'm told. Most people name numbers (first and surname) can be reduce to numbers from 1 through 9.

I don't know about Hamilton but the name Andrew is older than dirt. It's in the bible and everything. There were probably cavemen name Andrew.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:50 am:

When I went to find Tammi Terrels grave, I stumbled upon Bill's grave as well, and Bessie Sith's.
FYI-- Beresford is a very common Jamaican name, believe it it or not.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.81 - 195.219.7.81) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 04:48 am:

Bessie Smith, Ive got a compilation tape of hers with one of, if not the first sessions done anywhere featuring a guy named Louis Armstrong.Ive always loved Bessie Smiths stuff and Alexanders Rag time band just blows me away with her vocals.One truly outstanding singer.MEL.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 05:39 am:

Bobby, as might be suggested by the example of the fine Jamaican singer Beres Hammond, whose full name is "Beresford".

(I know he's way out of context on this Forum - but what a voice! If he'd been born in the US, he'd be a major R&B star up among the best.)

By AH (63.188.33.61 - 63.188.33.61) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 06:58 am:

Ok, that's the origin of Beresford, it's a Jamaican name. That was somewhere in the back of my head but I couldn't nail it. Beresford Sheppard was probably Jamaican or had Jamaican roots. You would think it would be kinda common in England and Canada too, is it?

By Stedman (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:24 am:

Yah mon. oh bumbaclot it is well known mon that .
Beres Hammond would inded be a major R&B star in America mon...jah Lion.
Excuse me while I partake of a hit on the ganja mon afterwhich a taste of jerk chicken and a bottle of red stripe, mon.

By Lt. Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:31 am:

Guidance, mi bredren. I and I a fe gwan backayard fe share lickle herb. Jah bless, bwai.

By Lynn Bruce (64.233.239.143 - 64.233.239.143) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 08:49 am:

After playing honkeytonk about 3 million times in countless different groups,it always amazed me how on certain nights when people were really getting into dancing to this song,we would all of a sudden really get into a groove doing it.We would be doing the same thing we always did,but somehow we,d all be in the pocket and lift it up to something else.I often wondered if the audience could tell the difference.

By TREVOR (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:10 am:

Speaking of Jamaican stuff, what about PATOIS LABELLE AND THE BLUE MOUNTAIN BELLES ???

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:24 am:

Lynn,
I know what you mean. The song always seemed to have a positive effect on a band.

By John Rhys (63.198.70.120 - 63.198.70.120) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 09:01 pm:

Since this is a "Bill Doggett" thread; let me add this....

The only time I ever met Bill Doggett was when he came to Golden World to introduce Ed Wingate to Edwin Starr.
The rest is history.

By AH (67.25.176.22 - 67.25.176.22) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 09:18 pm:

John Rhys, that's a neat piece of info. I've always heard that Edwin left Doggett because he wanted to record and Doggett wanted him to remain a recordingless singer with his road band. No where was if ever implied that Doggett had a hand in getting Starr his deal with Wingate, even with an introduction. I believe your account, you were there, it just goes to prove you can't believe everything you read.

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.131 - 65.56.5.131) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:37 pm:

According to the interview he gave for Soul Survivor magazine years ago, Edwin admitted that he didn't attend the famous Motown Finishing School because he learned all of that stuff from performing with Doggett.

Best,

Mark

By AH (63.188.32.47 - 63.188.32.47) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:29 am:

Motown finishing school had probably ran its course when Edwin got to Motown. And me thinks it was only required for some of the early acts Berry was grooming anyway. I doubt if Rare Earth, Junior Walker, Shorty Long, or the many country acts he recorded attended. The Parliarment was at Motown for nearly four years, they got there way before Edwin Starr, and I'll bet money they didn't go one day. Which begs the question, when is Motown going to released Parliarment recordings? The members say they recorded lots of tracks at Motown but none have surfaced.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:36 am:

The Velvelettes were pretty late in the game, and they went through Mrs. Powell's training ...

By AH (63.188.32.47 - 63.188.32.47) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 01:45 am:

Sue, the Velvelettes signed with Motown way before Edwin Starr. They had their first record release on VIP in 1964, Edwin got there somewhat later, his first Gordy single didn't come out until 1967. Plus the Velvelettes had a record out in 1963 on IPG Records that was produced by Mickey Stevenson, at which time they participated in a battle of the group contest with the Supremes and won.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.116 - 195.219.7.116) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:02 am:

AH,Hows it going,asyou stated,the Velvelettes on IPG(1002)There he goes/thats the reason why produced by Mickey Stevenson,didnt Mickey Stevenson also produce a record by the Barbees(early velvetettes)called Que pasa/The Wind on the Stepp Label,number 236 or thereabouts?Also Carolyn Gill of the Velvelettes did a Hitsville Acetate with christmas greetings on it.Talking of Hitsville Acetates,William Mickey Stevenson did 2 called,Rockabye your baby to a dixie melody and Look my way.Wasnt Ed Wingate featured with the Modern times on Stompin crazy legs,Golden world(115).Was Charles Hatcher(edwin starr)with the Futuretones on a disc called I Know/Roll on,Tress records no.2?And to finish ,I totally agree with you regards the Parliaments early material it should all be released.Oh one more thing AH,did Ruby Andrews sing on backing to The CODS Michael on Kellmac?cheers,MEL.

By AH (63.188.32.175 - 63.188.32.175) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:27 am:

Mel,

Yes Charles Hatcher (Edwin Starr) first recording was the one you mentioned on Tress Records; however, my sister who dated a young Charles Hatcher remembers another record; she may be thinking about I Know/Roll; but says she isn't and recalls another recording. Could be an acetate they cut somewhere that wasn't commercially distributed.

Yep, I forgot that Stevenson recorded a group with the Barbee sisters (of the Velvelettes) and didn't know about the Carolyn Gill Xmas record. Needless to say the roots of the Velvelettes goes back a long way in connection with Motown. They were actually there before Martha & the Vandellas.

I've heard that Ruby Andrews sang on some COD'S recordings but offhand can't remember which ones. One of the C.O.D.'s Larry Brownlee later sang with Lost Generation.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 10:28 am:

I think with Edwin Starr it was more a case of, he was a polished and didn't need Motown's help in that area.

Maxine Powell has said, Marvin Gaye cut her classes, but he didn't really need them.

So I don't think they were looser later about the etiquette/grooming area, it's just some artists came to them with more polish than others.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.20 - 195.219.7.20) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 10:56 am:

AH,Thanks for that,I forgot to mention another Hitsville Acetate to you,its called,Searching for my man and its by Del and the Velvelettes.Do you know anything regards this?Thanks for your time.MEL.

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:31 pm:

Hi Sue, I saw Marvin Gaye in the sixties, he wasn't the magnetic performer then that he became in the late '60s/'70s. Some time with Maxine Powell would have helped. But he was indeed polished in other ways, manners, etc., and you didn't have to worry about him coming on stage chewing gum.

Since Motown wasn't trying to break acts like Edwin Starr, Junior Walker, and the Isley Brothers into the Copa and other venues, I doubt if they cared if these acts attended or not, provided it was still going on. Many of Motown's conceptions lasted only a few years and not forever as many people think. I do believe Maxine Powell's finishing school was phased out around the late sixties.

The Motortown Revue was only active as a touring entity a couple of years. I know they released a Motortown Revue album in 1968 but that was just a one shot show. And I may be wrong but I don't believe Quality Control made the move West with Motown; at least not as it operated in Detroit.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:42 pm:

Between the lines of Smokey Robinson's (well-ghosted) autobiography, he suggests that Marvin's reason for cutting out of the finishing school might have been down to the bunions on his feet, which made dancing a painful exercise! (Smokey's nickname for Marvin was "Dad" because he hobbled like an old man, apparently.)

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:00 pm:

Ritchie, Marvin hobbled much of the early sixties confuse as to what type of persona he wanted to present to the public as well as what type of entertainer he was. I personally don't think he got it together until the duets and tours with Tammi Terrell. The last thing someone at an R&B concert wanted to hear was Marvin singing "The Days of Wine and Lovers." He thankfully abandoned the easy listening repertoire entirely in the '70s and became SOUL MAN.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:15 pm:

Andrew - I couldn't agree more! Maybe if he'd realised earlier that he was not "the Black Sinatra" but the unique talent that was purely MARVIN GAYE, we'd have been saved more than a few cheesy listening experiences. I have all his albums, and bought the posthumous "Romantic" CD that Columbia put out, (I forget the exact title) - I gave it away...

By Sue (208.232.121.87 - 208.232.121.87) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:15 pm:

Hi A.H.,
Yes the Motown etiquette thing phased out in the late '60s but essentially, Motown did too, relocating to Los Angeles slowly from '68 on so it was a moot point for its '70s artists.

An act like Martha and the Vandellas was NOT slated for the Copacabana but nonetheless Martha and the girls went through Mrs. Powell's school, Cholly's dance lessons etc. Martha says all the training ensured they could make a life as live entertainers later on, when they no longer were cutting records.

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:07 pm:

Sue, I disagree with you about Martha & the Vandellas' status at Motown. They were at one time one of the top tier acts there, as were the Marvelettes. But as with all companies, new artists, and shifts elsewhere, changes the pecking order. The Vandellas, while on the fringe, fall into the category of the artists' that Berry Gordy personally signed and that group always got more attention than artists acquired through mergers, or the established artists that signed on to jump on the Motown bandwagon.

Brian Holland and Lamont Dozier's production skills shifted from the Marvelettes, to the Vandellas, to the Supremes (in regards to girl groups) as the respective groups' pecking order changed within the company.

Many of the acts Berry signed to Motown like Mary Wells, the Marvelettes, the Supremes, Stevie Wonder, etc., had little or no experience in the business, so he took them under his wing. He didn't sign Edwin Starr. And initially, acted like he didn't want him on the label. Starr doesn't have many fond memories of Motown. He talks freely about his stint at Golden World and this time after Motown, but rarely elaborates about his Motown years. His old fans from Cleveland liked his Motown hits but didn't like the style of singing he did there--hollering. Fans of Charles Hatcher and the Futuretones remember him as a great ballad singer.

By Sue (64.244.93.44 - 64.244.93.44) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:30 pm:

AH,
I don't think you understand my point. The Vandellas WERE a top-tier act at Motown, but in a different way than the Supremes, they were considered more soulful, and they were not going to end up at the Copa or in the '60s Vegas scene.

So I was trying to illustrate that even Motown acts not destined for crossover type nightclubs were still put through the Motown charm and polish school.

The Marvelettes had many of their hits before the intensive Motown etiquette training kicked in; in those early promo pictures they're wearing handmade dresses. Their success put the company in the position where it could hire all the experts ...

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:47 pm:

Sue, I'll end this pointless discussion with this. Martha & the Vandellas at one time were over the Supremes at Motown and were accorded all the things at the time accorded to one of Motown's top tier acts. If they had been in that position at the time the Copa gigs came around they would have played there as well. It's really all about timing. And for your information all of Berry Gordy core acts were trained for crossover appeal and gigs at the fancy nightclubs. Berry considered a record a failure if it didn't make the Pop Top 40.

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:17 pm:

AH,
Pointless because I disagree with you? Sorry, but Martha and the Vandellas were never marketed as a Copa-type act; the Supremes were.

Being marketed as a top 40 act was still light-years away from playing an adult nightclub.

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

Sue,

Martha & the Vandellas played the Copa and other top nightclubs. They even recorded an album there that remains unreleased.

By David Meijkle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:58 pm:

Andrew

You've had a couple of bad days.

In my view your postings are becoming obnoxioux.

Clean it up or leave.

David Meikle

By AH (67.25.177.82 - 67.25.177.82) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:14 pm:

David, I'll leave. And I haven't had any bad days. I only found out about this board because my writings were being copied and posted illegally by some of your good members with no credit given. It's no wonder most of you think the practices of recording companies are just dandy. Hopefully, the copy and paste jobs have stopped.

By David Meijkle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:21 pm:

Andrew

No matter what anyone thinks, this is an honourable website.

It is borne out of my love for the music of Black America.

It is borne out of my love for Detroit.

How dare you come on here and sully that.

David

By RJ Spangler (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 04:44 am:

Andrew, I would guess you mean "the days of wine and roses" as I never heard of "the days of wine and lovers." Small point I know.
-RJ

By Joe Podorsek (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 08:30 am:

Hi Doggett fans,
I've been searching for an old Bill Doggett tune that we used to play called 'Ocean Liner'. Can anyone help???

Joe Podorsek Basso@aol.com
313/531-7128