By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:43 pm:

Heard a version of this from the '50's. Wow, I had thought this song was pure Motown.

By AH (64.159.100.138 - 64.159.100.138) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:52 pm:

Probably is a different "Forever" than the Motown "Forever" if it's from the '50s. Most likely it's a sixties remake that sound like it was recorded in the fifties.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 08:25 am:

The Marvin Gaye version knocks me out.

By AH (67.25.127.139 - 67.25.127.139) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 09:02 am:

Hi Bobby been a fan of yours for years. Got a CD with a song you recorded when you was about 14. I'm talking vocals folks! I like Marvin's but I'm partial to the Marvelettes', which is the first version Motown released. A group from Philly, the Orlons recorded "Forever" as well, which may be the version that Julian is referring to.

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:32 pm:

It's the same song, but titled "Darling, Forever" by the Four Chevells. The guy who sent the song to me from a doo-wop club says it's from '57. Label is Bandbox, #357.

Got an earlier version of "My Pillow" (song that Tempts sung which is on their "LOst and Found" from this club, too. Same song.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:08 pm:

Julian,

Bandbox was from El Paso,Texas or Colorado -
can't recall exactly where.

The label was active in the late 50's but that
catalogue number's from the mid sixties - probably
'66. I'll check my doowop sources but it
sounds a bit fishy to me.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Band Box was based in Denver

By AH (65.238.127.239 - 65.238.127.239) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

Julian

I think you have uncovered something.

By dowoplady@aol.com (24.46.200.124 - 24.46.200.124) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 05:48 pm:

Band Box label was more "known for" country & pop, but did issue rock & roll/doowop 45s in the early to mid 60s. The record in question came out first on the Delft label #357 and "books" for $750 in Kreiter's group record guide. The Band Box issue "books" from $40 to $8.00 depending on which pressing you have of it on that label. It shows it as 1964. In any case, it's a really nice record!

In harmony,

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By AH (67.25.127.223 - 67.25.127.223) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 06:03 pm:

Ok Nikki,

But is it the exact same song that for years everybody thought Freddie Gorman, Brian Holland and Lamont Dozier wrote at Motown that was recorded by the Marvelettes and Marvin Gaye. Is it that "Forever"?

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:56 am:

Sure is. I'll send it to you.
Now the file says Delft. I dunno where I got Bandbox from, maybe I have two versions of it.

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:58 am:

Don't forget, Process and the Doo Rags recorded it too! (he-he)

By AH (65.238.127.31 - 65.238.127.31) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 01:17 am:

Really Julian, I had that Process and the Doo Rags' album but don't recall "Forever" being on it.

I just played the "Forever" you sent me (thanks)and it's the exact same song. Now the question is whether it was recorded in 1957 or 1964.

You got to hear the Orlons rendition of this wedding song, it's nice.

By Julian (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:59 am:

Isn't "Forever on the Process & the Doo Rags album "Colorful Changes?"

By AH (63.188.32.11 - 63.188.32.11) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 07:23 am:

ok Julian, I didn't have that one. Didn't know they made two albums. I had the one where they redid "the Bells."

Two Process and the Doo Rags' albums--can u believe dat!

By thecount (166.90.224.99 - 166.90.224.99) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

"FOREVER"--MARVELETTES-I have two copies,both on TAMALA.One 1962&one 1963"am looking at the 1963 45 right now TAMALA (2-15-1963)CAT.#54077A.2min.20sec.This is the finest ever recoded.While in JERSY,at the lead east,a huge KAR SHOW and DOO-WOP groups galore there is a new GIRL GROUP called "STREETHEART",they do ACAPELLA MOTOWN and other DOO-WOP songs.They did FOREVER and it was fabulous.You would swear it was the MARVELETTES without the music.Girl groups of the 50's and 60's have always been a part of my favorites,I hope to get to that at another time if the forum gets back to the NORM.You all have to hear this GIRL GROUP,they also did a "RUTH McFADDEN song called "DARLING LISTIN TO THE WORDS OF THIS SONG".that one really got me by my audio G-SPOT.If you dont dig this group,you've got a hole in your SOUL.I'am queing up the 45 "FOREVER" and "RUTH McFADDIN" right now to listin to the comparison. If anyone gets the chance to see these girls,please do so and let me know if you dont feel the same.P.S.I'am not a seller of any of my collection,but a record collector in JERSY offered me a large sum of greens for both copies of my 45'son "TAMALA5501F2,ICHI-BON by "NICK AND THE JAGUARS".Anyone know the real value????it is both exellent cont. "COUNT"

By Sue (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:25 pm:

Speaking of the girl groups, I gave Katherine Schaffner of the Marvelettes this address, and told her to check in here, that people had been asking for her.

She said she'd try. Maybe we should set up a special Marvelettes thread or a "Hey Katherine!" thread so she can find it.

Katherine was very tickled when I told her that a columnist for Chatbusters Magazine out of England picked her as one of his "Top Ten Motown Babes."
She's had a rough year, recovering from a stroke, and things like the Girl Group Reunion are fun for her I think.

By AH (67.25.176.65 - 67.25.176.65) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:41 pm:

I wonder who that "Chatbuster Columnist" that picked Katherine Schaffner a babe is?

By Frank19067 (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

Courtesy Of Julian. He directed me to this site.

I was the one that sent out the song to my Doo-Wop member list. The original song is Darling, Forever-Four Chevelles-1957-Delft# 357. The Flipside is: This Is Our Wedding.

The Marvelettes version, Tamala # 54077, entitled simply, Forever, was released 2/15/63. Actually the Marvelettes version was the "B" side of Locking Up My Heart.

I can assure everyone who monitors this board that it is the exact same song. If you want to hear it drop me an E-mail-FRK811@comcast.net.

From The DooWopCorner
Frank Pellicone
Founder

By thecount (166.90.224.99 - 166.90.224.99) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 03:28 pm:

SUE,I have a few recordings by a beautiful DETROIT GIRL GROUP who hardly ever gets any recognition,THE TAYLORTONES.They had "MY HEART WENT ZING" and "A STAR".What ever became of these cover girl beauties?I'am putting their songs on a cd when I'am done here.A couple of hisses are heard from the 45's,but it worked for us then and it still brings back the enjoyment now.Hey,you look great in the picture. "THE COUNT"

By Sue (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 03:43 pm:

Count!
You're being kind. We were all over-hot and frazzled in that picture but having immense fun -- thank you.

I'd love to hear the Taylortones ...

AH do you know that columnist, or are you he? If so I'd like another copy, since I promised to send mine to Katherine. Cal Street gave it to me, she had an extra, on the bus down to the Girl Group reunion in Cleveland.

By AH (67.25.176.240 - 67.25.176.240) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 04:22 pm:

Sue, I am HE but you will have to get the copy via mail from the Chatbusters' site cause I don't have any extras of that one.

Frank: "Forever" was the B-side of a Marvin Gaye single as well just goes to show you the type of material that Motown had to play with. I got it through email and I can assure everybody it is the exact same song.

By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:40 am:

Ok, so what I wanna know is, who is credited with writing the Delft version? We have to get to the bottom of this. Maybe we'd better call Columbo or Matlock!

By doowop doll (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

This can go on forever and forever. We have three other versions.

Forever Blend-Dells
Forever Bleu-Lites
Forever Frankie & C-Notes

Plus to make matters worse, My partner the Doo-Wop Dreamer gave me twenty cassettes someone found at a garage sale in Detroit. They appear to be Detroit doo-wop groups who sing extremely well---practicing. They are at least six versions of the same "Forever" song with different tempos and beat. We did a show about this song a few months ago. Our listeners were divided as to whether they preferred the Marvin Gaye version or the one done by the Marvelettes.

By AH (67.25.177.229 - 67.25.177.229) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:06 pm:

The Marvelettes' rendition, it's raw and beautiful. Plus it sounds more real to me coming from a female.

Has anybody ever wondered why the Originals never recorded a version? After all Original Freddie Gorman co-wrote the song.

By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:05 am:

Maybe there is an Originals' version in the vaults! Boy, I imagine their take on it would be cool!

Didn't Brenda and the Tabulations do a version, also. I think it was too fast for my taste or something.

Julian
Flynn Soul Records

By chill (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:19 am:

can someone tell me who did the original "My Pillow"???

By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:48 am:

I've got an earlier version that is either on my busted laptop or burned to cd somewhere. Lemme look for it!

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:44 am:

Hey A H,
Were you refering to the Melron CD earlier??
Was it Big Butters?
That could be used as an entry on a Dr. Demento compilation!!

By AH (63.188.33.61 - 63.188.33.61) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:10 am:

Yep that's it "Big Butters." I have that Melron CD, It has a picture of you when you were a teenager. A young teen. Are the artists on that CD still around?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:18 am:

Dr Demento, Bobby? There's whole 'nother thread (but not for this forum, I fear!)

BTW - your anagrammatical alter ego is

BIBLE BOY

By Bible boy (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:29 am:

Wow, Bible Boy. I love it. In the spirit of the Jewish new year it is apropos.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 08:56 am:

Shalom.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:08 am:

And Mazel Tov to all on the forum.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:21 am:

The 1957 release date for the Four Chevelles
single seems to have originated in Robert
Ferlinghere's "Discography of R&B Vocal Groups"

His entry for the group shows

"Darling Forever" / "This is our wedding day"
Bandbox 357 (1957), Delft 357 (1964)

"I can't believe" / "I know"
Bandbox 358 (1957)

The Bandbox date is definitely wrong - 1964 is
more like it. The Delft issue I haven't been able to trace any definite info. about - curious that
the catalogue number is the same. It's the only
release I've been able to trace on Delft - so, is
it a local issue that Bandbox picked up to give
wider distribution ( not that Bandbox had wide
distribution) or is it a boot ?

If the Four Chevelles is the original how did
Holland - Dozier - Gorman get to hear it. In
its entire life the Bandbox label didn't have
one release hit the Billboard Hot 100 or the
Billboard R&B charts. They may have had a few country chart entries but I can't think of any.
Bandbox was barely distributed outside its own
state (Colorado). So is it likely that Detroit
songwriters would even hear it let alone decide
to filch the song and claim ity as their own.

On the other hand if you accept that the Marvelettes is the original it seems to me far more likely that a Denver based group heard it
and decided that it would be a good song to record.

It's a much covered song apart from the Marvelettes and Marvin Gaye versions it's also
been recorded by Brenda and the Tabulations,
Carla Thomas, Don Gardner & Baby Washington,
Marc Sadane, Micheal Pedicin and as recently as
1996 was cut by Barbara Lynn as an album track.

Until some clear evidence comes up I'm sticking
with the Marvelettes as the original.

ANyway, if the Four Chevelles was the original
how come nobody sued Jobete for copyright infringement ?

By AH (63.188.33.239 - 63.188.33.239) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:15 am:

Davie G it was the mention of the 1957 released date of the Four Chevelles "Forever" that caused some, including myself, to question the songwriters' credit. If the date of release is actually 1964 than the question is moot. The Four
Chevelles heard either the Marvelettes or Marvin Gave version and remade it.

As far as suing for copyright infringement. Those cases are hard to win either way. A recent case where a songwriter had an earlier copyright date on a song than one he claimed was stolen from him lost the case because the Judge ruled that the songwriter with the later copyright date had no way of knowing of the the song with the earlier copyright date. And basically said the two songs' similarties were coincidence.

The song with the earlier copyright date had not been publicly released though the writer said he sent it to some recording companies and producers.

This flys in the face of people who thought they had a sure win in a copyright infringement case because they had the earliest copyright date. Lawyers research these cases when presented with a similar case and many victims are going to find that because of the aforementioned case many attorneys are no longer taking these cases on contingency. So you wont find many songwriters taking these cases to court anymore even when they have dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's because they can't afford to.

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:47 am:

Hi Andrew,

I hadn't heard of the court case you mention
- how recent was it ?

I can understand to some extent the judge's reasoning - given the volume of music being
produced it's inevitable that somewhere along the
line more than one person is gonna come up with the same sequence of notes. I would've thought
that the crux of the case would be did the
second party have access to the first party's song
If so there's the likelihood that the second party copied from the first - in civil cases
in the UK the courts decision is based on the balance of probabilities.

But let's not get entangled in legalities - we'll
be here forever otherwise

By AH (67.25.176.80 - 67.25.176.80) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 12:33 pm:

Davie G. Check out the book Confessions of a Record Producer by Moses Avalon. The case is detailed somewhat in the book. The essence is that copyright protection is not what most think it is. These cases are extremely hard to prove and costly. And the party with the most money usually wins: either by dragging the case out or settling prior to trial.

I no longer say emphatically that so and so wrote a song these days when I'm writing. I try to always say now that the song is credited to...Because I'm finding so many controversies that I really can't say for sure who wrote the song.

It's a known fact that hot producers producing a lot of acts buy songs as often as you and I do eggs. This goes on quite a bit because they need material to fulfilled their commitments. It would be impossible for some producers to write as many songs as are credited to them. This is prevalent in rock, rap and urban music.

The Velevelettes wrote their first single on IPG Records but the songwriters' credits read Mickey Stevenson and somebody else who I don't remember offhand. They still do. The Velevelettes never sued. Most writers who are ripped off don't. Examples like these could fill a book.

Always take songwriters' credits with a grain of salt. Particularly what's printed on labels and covers. And often, what's listed in B.M.I. and ASCAP is the writer(s) the song(s) is credited to, which doesn't necessarily mean the person who actually wrote the song.

This even goes on in the book publishing world. Do you really believe Danielle Steele can write two or three books a year? If so, when does she have time for vacations or sex. It's the name Danielle Steele that sells. The more product with that name the more books sold = bigger profits.

By Julian (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 01:23 am:

wow!

By AH (67.25.177.3 - 67.25.177.3) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 03:13 pm:

Julian, the flipside of the Valadiers' "Greetings This Is Uncle Sam"--"Take a Chance" was written by two of the Valadiers, but the songwriter credit read P. Bennent. None of the Valadiers have a clue, even today, who P. Bennent is.

By Polly Esther (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:21 am:

Forever by the Marvelettes played a very important role in my formative years as it was one of the first songs that I ever practiced to when I used to sing in a group, and it was one of the first songs that I made love to!!
The song will forever be etched in my memory.