By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 08:30 pm:

Well it is Labor day weekend and I made it up to NYC to be with Vonnie and celebrate her birthday which was on the 26th of August.
I am feeling pretty normal now as can be expected for a chap such as me where normality is not the norm!!!(Never cared for the name "Norm" anyway..to nerdy!)

Gotta go eat a heart helathy din-din and I will check in later on!!!

Eli

By FransBigSister (151.199.237.157 - 151.199.237.157) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

--Don't you just love that "heart Healthy"
diet! Yuk. Someone should start a food company
that creates some tasty healthy food.
Have you tasted the Pirate's Booty snack line?
They have some pretty decent snax made from
veggies. Shoprite carries these in the Chip's
aisle.
Marilyn

By Ralph (209.240.198.62 - 209.240.198.62) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 12:09 am:

Bobby,
Good to see you pal. Vonnie...Happy happy birthday baby....and thanks for watching over Bobby. Love to you both.
Ralph

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 12:51 am:

Eli here!
Hey Lowell, I just heaed about your dad and my deepest sympathy goes out to you and your family at this time of sorrow. Hold it together my man!!

Eli

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 04:25 am:

Hey Bobby

As the Three Degrees said: "Take Good Care Of Yourself" - and "When Will (We) See You Again?"

By Dave Moore (193.165.251.231 - 193.165.251.231) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 05:34 am:

Bobby,

great to see you on the up again. Take care my man.

Very best regards,

Dave

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 05:54 am:

Glad to see you are on the mend Bobby. Before you check the hundreds of emails you must have, please wish Vonnie a happy birthday for me, for last week. Please put your feet up and take it easy this weekend. Maybe listen to Felix. Sadly I cannot this weekend, as I am working.

speak soon

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.22 - 195.219.7.22) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 08:39 am:

Mr Eli,Ihope you are fit and well soon,and when you are I would appreciate it if you found the time to answer my question.I know you played on James Bountys Prove yourself a Lady,but did you know of another version of it?Personally I think a far more inferior version at that.Many thanks for your time.MEL.

By Eli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 10:58 am:

Mel,

Who did th other version??
Please fill me in.

Eli

By Vickie (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 02:21 pm:

HEy Bobby,
Glad to hear you are up and around and well..
My work hours are such now that I have not had a
chance to call and chat..I will catch up with you soon though and talk loads..Happy "belated" Birthday to Vonnie, tell her a big hello and hug from me..and thank her from all of us for taking good care of you...

lots of love to both of you..

Enjoy the weekend friend..
Vickie

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.60 - 195.219.7.60) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 04:34 pm:

Bobby,thanks for taking the time to reply,the other James Bounty was called,Permanent Injury,I am waiting for confirmation on artist and Label.Apparantly it was a bootleg recording cut in the 70s.And by all accounts,an absolute terrible version in all departments.As soon as i get more info,Ill get back to you.All told,it seems that the title says it all.MEL.

By Ian W (213.122.74.253 - 213.122.74.253) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 05:21 pm:

Aw, I take a couple of days off and miss the return of Bobby! Great to see you're back!

By Eli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 08:04 pm:

Ta Ta Ian!! I am back, front and sideways, indeed. No full frontal though.I am Jewish.
As they say, anything for ten percent off!!!

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:08 am:

Hi Bobby,

Welcome home and "take it easy, soul brother"

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.120 - 195.219.7.120) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

Bobby Eli,Im very sorry to say that I have been let down regards the info on that other version of the James Bounty track,due to no fault of my own.If i do get the info Iwill be in touch.Once more I can only apologise,obviously the timewaster will be recieving a call from yours truly.MEL.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:01 pm:

Eli Here!!

I am currently back in NYC for the Jewish high holidays. It is a testament to the fact that Jews have soul!!
Anyway, I feel a thousand percent better and as strong as a bull. Well maybe a small calf.

By Brown Sugar (151.197.233.70 - 151.197.233.70) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 09:06 pm:

Hey Eli!

It's Karen and Allison of Brown Sugar. So glad to hear you're doing well and we will be seeing you soon. Thanks for the "shout out" on the Forum.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 01:10 am:

Yo Allison and Karen( and Phyllis in spirit) Thanks for checking out the forum.
I have posted a Brown Sugar thread as well.
I have spent so many delightful hours conversing with all of my newfound friends.
When I was in the hospital their phone calls and well wishes made my recovery so much faster.
Long live the forum!!!

Eli

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:50 am:

Ol' Eli again folks. I just want to know when all of the original threads are coming back.
I've been telling folks about them and they are eager to view them.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:56 am:

Lowell hopes to tackle the rest of the transition this week.

By AH (63.188.32.101 - 63.188.32.101) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:36 pm:

Bobby,

I always wanted to ask you since your name is on the writers' credits of "Why Did You Do It To Me" by the Thieves on Broadway, who were the Thieves? Were they a Philly or New York group?

I still have the record, had it since the sixties or whenever it came out. At one time I thought that you may have been a member.

I don't remember buying the record so it must have came in one of those pack of 45s I use to buy at the five and dime store downtown where you could see the record on top and the one on bottom but none of the ones in-between.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:20 am:

AH,
The Thieves were formerly The Three Srangers on ABC Paramount and on Mercury.and a one off record as The Bums also on Mercury.
They are: Salome Bey lead tenor/ Melvin Wright baritone lead and Ike Smith second tenor.
Check out "The Northern Soul Of Philadelphiavo. 3 and you will hear all four Thieves songs.
Incidentally, Juggy Murry of Sue//Broadway records wanted to call them The Remy Martins!!
His reasoning for the Thieves moniker was that they will"steal your heart away"

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:21 am:

I forgot to mention that they were from Philly and are still around. I may go into the studio with them for old times sake.

By AH (64.159.100.215 - 64.159.100.215) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:30 am:

Amazing, I've had that record for years as I said before and never knew anything about the group. Seeing Broadway Records was located in NY I assume they were a New York group. When you came into prominence a few years later I made the connection with the Eli in the songwriters' credit and you, which I also checked out in B.M.I.

I liked the slower flipside "I'm Not the One," also co-written by you with Erwin Gripman, Ross Matico and Jeffrey Prusan, better. They were liked the Impressions (kinda).

My copy must have been a DJ or promo record cause the label is all white with black lettering.

I have volumes 1 and 2 of the Northern Soul of Philadelphia. Didn't know a third one was out.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:51 am:

Ah,

Yes Vol. 3 is a must have also.
The James Bounty songs are there as well as the superb David Morris songs and two rare cuts by The Universals. Check it out!!

Eli

By drums (207.19.97.139 - 207.19.97.139) on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:37 pm:

Hey Mr Eli!

Daren Metz here, How are you! I hope everything is well! Tell Ms. Vonnie that I said Happy Birthday and I hope I see you guys soon! I am giving a drum clinic/concert at Sam Ash in King of Prussia in about 5 weeks so I hope you guys will come out. I will be playing with Musiq Soulchild's band!! Anyway I will call you and give you the scoop!

Daren Metz
Noble & Cooley

By francis T (195.92.168.165 - 195.92.168.165) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

Regarding other version of James Bounty "lady".Track is by BRYSON BAY BAND.Backing is I think a SIMON SOUSSON confection.Words start IF YOU WANT MY LOVE ON A SLAB OF MORTUR and go on to explain KISS MY WOUND AND YOU WILL MAKE ME BETTER-PERMANENT INJURY THATS WHAT YOU MEAN TO ME

ETC.I think it was someones idea of a joke!

AVI AVIS 106 MALE VOCAL.My copy is a demo
REGARDS FRANCIS T

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:44 am:

hi mr eli glad youre back can you give me some information on the delfonics and how was it working with them and thom bell thank you.tommy

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:49 am:

Hi Thom,

The Delfonics were one of the first artists that I worked with in the NEW Sigma Sound Studios!!
Didnt I blow your mind was recorded live (strings and horns with the rhythm section) as was Ready or not and How could you( Delfonics Theme)
I had the pleasure of being on the same bill with them many times on the road and got to know them very well.Thgey were a hoot on the road especially William Hart.
In recent times I have written a lot os songs with William as well.
Thom Bell was one of my favorite producers to work with and I learned a lot from him. He was very meticulous in the studio and could hear " a mosquito fart in a windstorm"
Healso was very generous and appreciative of the musicians.

By thom (12.2.196.17 - 12.2.196.17) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:58 pm:

thank you mr Eli im a big fan of yours i remember the first time i heard the sideshow and love want let me wait when will the songs be completed and release by the delfonics and what are some of the songs titles. thank you thom

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.107 - 195.219.7.107) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:12 pm:

Bobby,do you have any info on Thom Bells/Kenny Gambles/Leon Huffs,The Great Philadelphia Trading Company?(which supposedly took over the old Cameo-Parkway building).Also the joint publishing company called Mighty Three Music(circa 1973).Was Philadelphia International Records once owned by Thom Bell?And finally,any idea of what Bobby Martin is doing these days,many thanks,MEL.

By john c (12.2.233.107 - 12.2.233.107) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:16 pm:

Mr. Eli,

I seemed to recall reading a comment by you on the forum that you played the electric sitar on the Stylistics recordings. That instrument seems to appear in all sorts of places I'm sure it wasn't intended and it sounds just gorgeous in the Stylistics arrangements, You Are Everything for example. Was using it your idea or Thom Bell's? Is there any special technique required or is it just like playing a guitar? Was it a Coral Vinnie Bell model? Sorry for the gear oriented questions but I've always liked that sound but have never had the chance to see or play one.

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Mel,

I talked to Bobby Martin about a year ago. He lives in Washington State, as does Thom Bell, and is a devout member of the Jevohah Witness faith. Eli will attest to the fact that Bobby Martin, not Thom Bell, did most of the arrangements at Philadelphia International Records. Martin says he wrote the arrangement for "The Horse" by Cliff Nobles on the bus to the studio.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.78 - 195.219.7.78) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 04:17 pm:

Bobby,why didnt we hear a lot more about Bobby Martin and his work?For he was a truly talented guy,Ive got the Cliff Nobles track,but off hand cant remember if B.Martin is credited on the disc,if you cant recall i will dig it out.Cheers,MEL.

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 04:39 pm:

Mel, I can answer that one, Bobby Martin probably isn't credited on "the Horse" and he's still pissed about it. He says he should have received either a share of the publishing or the actual songwriting since he contributed so much.

It's Bobby who wants me to tell the world about his arraangements at PI. He says everything he reads credits Thom Bell.

His publishing company Mardix is the combination of MARtin and DIXon (for Luther Dixon). He wanted to start a company with Luther, cause Luther was hot at the time but the two never got together. He kept the name though.

Bobby Martin and Frankie Brunson (People's Choice)played in the Lynn Hope Band together long before either became affiliated with Philadelphia International Records or Philadelphia period.

Martin and Thom Bell worked together on the first Odds & Ends tracks for Today/Perception Records. the lead singer Wanda Butler (now Maultasby) liked Martin's arrangements and productions better; she says Bells' stuff was good but different. This was prior to Bell producing the Stylistics but Wanda says Linda Creed was always around.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

Let me set the record straight!!
First of all, I was there through it all from inception until the end, so anything that has been heard is nothing but conjecture.
I'll start from the beginning.
Jerry ross had a company called Sheryl records that the Larks recorded for.
Weldon Mcdougal sugested that the Dreamlovers go and se him. Ross liked them and signed them to his Herutage label.
I went along one day and met Bobby Martin who was hired to write the rhythm charts and he had me put bar lines on the music paper.
Martin also played vibes on the session.
Stay tuned for part two of this saga as I have to go to a 9/11 tribute..
I'LL BE BACK!!!!

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.7 - 195.219.7.7) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:53 pm:

I Must second what you mentioned regards Thom Bell getting all the credit,as I have had a quick glance at a good few articles made around the early 1970s,two in particular around 1973 mentions Bell,who catergorically takes all the honours,and without sitting down (which I shall in due course)Mr.Martins name crops up by either Gamble or Huff,so no wonder the guy is pissed off.Although in an issue of a 1970 Blues & Soul,the Philly trio called Odds and Ends(as youve mentioned above)Larry and Wanda Butler with Jimmy Grant have them down as the writers of there biggest hit to date,Let Me Try which was produced by probably Phillys best musical arrangers,Bobby Martin and Thom Bell.But all the 1973 stuff is all Thom Bell.I Am going to dig out some early files etc. that I have regards the Philly scene,mind you it will take a while as I have a lot of items regards just Philly alone.Its the same old story though Bobby,how many people dont get the credit thet they have laboured for.So many Sharks around the music scene as you know only too well.Cheers,MEL.

By AH (67.25.177.148 - 67.25.177.148) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:20 pm:

Mel

Larry Butler, Wanda Butler and Jimmy Grant--Odds & Ends are siblings. Jimmy is the youngest brother, his surname is different because he might have a different father.

I use to talk to Wanda and Larry all the time. Especially Wanda. Bell and Martin produced Odds & Ends together, but each arranged different tunes they produced on them.

Their biggest hit was "Love Makes the World Go Round," which Bell arranged, if you want to call it that, cause he simply cloned the Deon Jackson record. Not only is it the groups' least favorite record but they didn't even think it was their biggest hit. They thought "Let Me Try" b/w "Foot Track" (the last Martin/Bell production) was because they worked more off of it. They also liked "Who Could Doubt My Love," or basically the songs they (Wanda and Larry) wrote.

Jimmy's name is on the songs but both Wanda and Larry said they did that to show unity and make him feel a part of the group since he was much younger than them at the time and didn't want to be involved. He didn't do any actual writing. Wanda would come up with the title, a verse and chorus, and Larry would finished the song. Larry had to bribed Jimmy to practice with them.

Wanda and Larry (minus Jimmy) with another guy sang and recorded with two other groups after Odds & Ends both of which they enjoyed better.

By the way despite what they say I love their version of "Love Makes the World Go Round."

When they recorded as Unity and Three Million they had more of a say in what they recorded. Larry's favorite Odds & Ends song was their rendition of "Apples, Peaches, Pumpkin Pie."

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.88 - 195.219.7.88) on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:54 pm:

AH,Once again,many,many thanks for the info.MEL.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:19 am:

Hi everyone,
Eli here for part two of the continuing Martin/Bell saga.
As I have previously mentioned, Bobby Martin's entrance into the arrangement world came via When We Get Married by The Dreamlovers.
This was in 1962. Several years later in 1966,
Kenny Gamble met Bobby Martin via Jerry Ross who he had been a writer for at on time( The 81 etc.)
The sessions which produced Together and United by The Intruders were Bobby's first sessions for G&H and an early indication of things to come and
a groundbreaking session as far as the "new" Philly sound was concerned.
Thom Bell was Chubby Checkers' piano player and had a writers office in the Cameo Parkway building which later was bought by GH&B
Bobby Martins arrangements,in my opinion set the standard for the Philly sound insofar as Philly international was concerned . The love I lost, TSOP, Backstabbers, If you don't know me by now,
the list goes on. His horn arangements were second to none.
Thom Bell primarily was noted for the sweeter stull such as The Delfonics and The Stylistics andThe Spinners.
Collectively they were at the top of their game.
Other great arrangers who played a huge part in the Philly Sound were Norman Harris, Jack Faith and ol' Eli here!! Gamble and Huffs records were only a portion of the Philly sound as were know it. What about Vince Montana and theSalsoul Orchestra, and Richie Rome.
Going back for the Horse for a minute, it was originally the B side of a song called Love is alright by Cliff Nobles, a singer from Norristown, Pa., and some jock flipped it by accident and the rest is history.

In the early 70's Martin and Bell were a team on some early stuff such the Intrigues and Odds and Ends.
Thoms' first recorded work as a producer / arranger was He dont really love you by the Delfonics, with La La being his first hit.
Anyway, Bobby moved to L.A. in 1977 when he was offered a job with A&M to produce LTD and several other acts. He left after being treated unfairly by G&H after being paid a pittance for all ofthe work he put into creating an integral part of the Philly Sound. In fact G&H treated everyone unfairly, otherwise they would still be in the game.

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:48 am:

Hey, guys, in defense of "everything you read" out there, I would like to point out that I interviewed Bobby Martin at length for the Sony/Legacy box set "The Philly Sound." He's the main figure in the booklet's piece on Philadelphia arrangers, along with the outstandingly talented Jack Faith.

I was awfully sad that Norman Harris was no longer with us, or I would certainly have discussed his wonderful scoring on songs like Sharon Paige's "Searching For a Love" and Loleatta Holloway's "Hit and Run" and Dan Hartman's landmark disco stuff -- all of this aside from his guitar playing! I think we can all agree that his sense of orchestral ornamentation was just, like wow!

(And don't think I haven't been agitating for a "Philly Box II" with all the other Philly stuff that's not on PIR, but owned by Sony...what's that they say about "easy as falling off a log?")

I don't know how many times I've said this year: just think of all the people who had to be in the room to make "When Will I See You Again" -- two minutes, nearly three? And these youngbloods fuck around all night with one sample loop now. Ahhh...music.

By AH (63.188.33.36 - 63.188.33.36) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 07:02 am:

Bobby moved to Los Angeles from Philly then later relocated to a small city in Washington State where he now lives. He only received a small fee for arranging "The Horse"; no royalties.

Eli is right about Gamble & Huff paying a pittance. A friend of mine who lives in Cleveland who worked with the O'Jays and later H. B. Barnum worked at Philadelphia International as a songwriter with his now deceased partner for about three months. They were considered interns and worked under Bunny Sigler (another story in itself). They wrote many songs, none were released because my friend refuse to sign a contract that would have paid them peanuts per week and no royalties for two years. To say it was insulting would be too kind.

His partner wanted to sign the deal, and went to Gamble saying he would even though his partner wanted no part of it. Not only did Gamble refused his offer he chastized him for wanting to leave his partner.

People forget that Bobby Martin produced many of the Manhattans finest recordings on CBS Records.

Most people call Wanda Butler-Maultasby of Odds & Ends, Doll.

My friend has many fond memories of working at Philly International he says Thom Bell always wore dark pants and a white shirt and caught the bus to P.I. And that Phil Hurtt and Bell were real close friends. So if you want some insights into the reclusive Thom Bell you might want to contact Hurtt ("I'll Be Around") who has a recording studio in New Jersey.

Bobby Eli can you shed some light on the background vocals on P. I. recordings. Everybody says that Gamble, Bell, Sigler, and sometimes Phil Hurtt sang on many on them. Even on recordings by vocal groups like Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.51 - 195.219.7.51) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 09:57 am:

There was a track on Brunswick called With You/Much Too Much by a Bobby Martin,is this our Philly guy?MEL.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:44 am:

Thank you Eli & Brian for shedding some light on the Philly International story. I agree that Bobby Martin was (and is) a vital architect in the Philly Sound. I feel that his collaboration with Bell on the the Intrigues "In A Moment" (released on the Yew label) is one of the finest "lost soul" gems of all time. Also, having colleagues who work for Sony Music here in NYC, I was disappointed when they informed me of Gamble & Huff's treatment of arrangers & staff when it came to the money & recognition. In fact - note to Brian Chin - Sony may not be too gung ho about a second Philly box because (and this according to a marketing executive at Sony Legacy) the one you worked on with Leo Sacks didn't sell that well in the eyes of the bean-counters. I feel that Sony could have definitely done a larger boxed set which should have culled more unreleased material and 12" versions of hits as well as the single/album tracks. Finally, on the subject of Jerry Ross, he should be recognized for his contributions to the Philly sound even though many of his productions were more pop-derivative. He was the man who gave Jerry Butler's streak a shot in the arm with (the original) "Mr. Dream Merchant" and co-wrote with Gamble the classic "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" which he produced for Dee Dee Warwick (whose version was copped note-by-note by the Motown gang for the Supremes/Temptations hit version).
Regards,
KevGo

By AH (64.159.100.65 - 64.159.100.65) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:30 am:

In defense of Gamble & Huff, Philadelphia International wasn't really an independent recording company. It was mainly a super production deal that Kenny Gamble had with CBS Records. So everybody got shortchanged. The vocal groups for instance would have all done better financially if they had been signed directly to CBS and not with a record/production company affiliated with CBS.

I'm amazed that a various artists compilation didn't sell well (not really). Name me one that has? I've never seen one listed on anybodys Top 10 or 20 all time favorite albums list. Nor have I ever seen one place high on Billboards' Top 200 Albums survey. At least with live albums these days they sometimes throw a new cut on. Nobody has figured out how to market a various artists album successfully. Since these albums are made up of already recorded material they aren't as expensive as a newly recorded album. They also don't get the promotion a hot newly recorded album gets either.

Major American recording companies have stayed out of the oldies various artists compilation for years (or merely dabbled) because of low sales. The best compilations come from outside the States because their sales expectations aren't as high,and they don't have to deal with stockholders and profit. It'll be interesting to see how long Rhino remains viable.

Collectables and K-Tel probably do more than any other company in the States. Have you ever seen one of their compilations in the Top 40 or Top 100 for that matter?

By phillysoulman (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

Hi AH,
Regarding the background vocals on the Philly records, depending on the producers involved for the most part they were : Phil Hurtt, Ron Tyson, Carl Helm, and sometimes Bunny Sigler on the songs which he wrote. The female voices were always Barbara Ingram, Carla Benson and Yvette Benton. Sometimes Cynthis Biggs would sing on the Dexter Wansel produced things.
It is amazing to note that even in the case where
vocal groups are involved, seldom do the group members appear on the record other than their respective leads.
This is because productions had to be pristine and professional sounding and many of them did not posess studio "chops" as it were.
The Spinners did sing on their stuff with the help of the girls. Blue Magic and The Stylistics bcg. Vocs. sounded the same because they were the same people!! Studio singing is a very specialized field and you either have it or you do not and we were always very adamant about our records being as polished sounding and sparkling as they were known to be. We took great pride in doing so and we had the luxury of having a great recording studio and top notch engineers who genuinely cared and put their heart and soul into every recording session not to mention some of the worlds finest musicians of every race, creed and color and you can hear the end result in every song, and we all had great fun doing all that stuff. If the walls could only talk!!

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 01:52 pm:

By the way, we went to a very poignant and wonderful concert here in Broklyn at the Prospect Park band shell for the 9/11 anniversary.
The Brooklyn Philharmonic performed with some tremendoud guest soloists including a young man name Terrence Nelson who played the ENTIRE Rhapsody In Blue by George Gershwin, every movement!! The conductor's name is John Mauceri and he was just great and all of cues were mind boggling especially ofn the dramatic effect of the spoken word segment..
The Brooklyn Youth Choir performed as well a a Jazz ensemble led by sightless pianist Valerie Capers. There was also a very beautiful and moving spoken word segment based on Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. It was a candlelight vigil as well and very peaceful and emotional.

By AH (67.25.177.94 - 67.25.177.94) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 02:24 pm:

True Eli, I'm told the only Bluenotes to sing on their Philadelphia International recordings were Harold Melvin, Sharon Paige and Teddy Pendegrass, other than the falsetto wails by Lloyd Parks on the opening of "I Miss You."

Gamble and Huff uses the people you mentioned and others as they saw fit. Tracy Mitchell, the O'Jays' valet, sang background on the Jays' "When the Worlds at Peace," along with others because G&H wanted a fuller sound. Others say Kenny Gamble participated on many of these backing vocals sweetening sessions as well. You can hear him on some of the Jerry Butler cuts.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 03:40 pm:

Hi AH,
You're right as rain regarding the deal Gamble/Huff had with CBS. According to the excellent liner notes Carol Cooper put together for Sony's boxed set, in 1971 G&H were given an advance (or budget, depending on how one views it) of $50,000 for three albums and much less for singles - a mere pittance in comparison to the budget Barry White was given to produce Love Unlimited's debut LP "From A Girl's Point Of View" that same year (his "spiritual advisor" and investor Larry Nunes gave White $32,500 - for one album!). This is according to White's autobiography "Love Unlimited." So, from the beginning everyone at PIR were getting financially burned by CBS.
As far as the compilation market is concerned, as a member of the recording and reissue community, the only way a collection has any chance of even racking up decent sales is through some type of media exposure. For example, seven years ago when I was working in record retail, I had almost 30 customers ask for Dusty Springfield's "Dusty In Memphis" CD because the New York Times ran an interview with Dusty in their Sunday magazine edition. A more recent example would be Rhino/AOL Time Warner's recent TV ads for the double CD compilation by Chicago, resulting in the band's umpteenth certified gold record. Even exposure through the trades (Billboard) and collector's magazines (Goldmine, Discoveries, Ice) helps get the word out. Finally, I must tip my hat to our UK brothers & sisters who are "digging through the crates & cellars" and giving us music lovers the classics that pundits call "rarities." It's just a shame that the USA labels (except for a chosen few) must apply bean-counting requirements to justify a reissue while our European counterparts are exporting our own stuff back in our collective faces (forgive the anger - this topic is a very sensitive one for me).
Regards,
KevGo

By AH (67.25.127.243 - 67.25.127.243) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 04:20 pm:

You're forgiven KevGo.

Let me give you another perspective. I can't recall names that well at the top of my head but If needed I can get the correct names.

There's a lady in Texas whose family started the recording company that produced the original version of "You Cheated" by a white group, which was covered by a black group call the Shields from Los Angeles. They didn't mind the cover cause it meant more songwriting royalties for the member of the group that wrote the song and more for label's owners because they owned the publishing.

She get calls and mail to this day requesting licensing rights for the song for various artists compilations. At first she filled out the mountain of paperwork needed to complete each deal; now she says she doesn't bother. It's not worth it to her because the compensation is so meager. According to her "you fill out all this paperwork and get a check two, three years later for $7.87." Plus, you have to run it by a lawyer (they don't work for free) to make sure you're not giving your song away.

Gamble and Huff was working on a tight budget. To their credit they didn't waste the money and use it to produce some great records. Others who had similar deals produced crap and skimmed the money to buy housed. cars, and women.

I agree with Eli about using more polish singers on backing vocals, but a set group of singers was also utilize because they showed the ability to learn fast, were dependable, and didn't waste time in the studio. G&H didn't have the time nor the inclination to spend a lot of hours waiting on somebody to get their part down pat.

It's sometimes impossible to determine who is singing on '50s and '60s Los Angeles recordings because singers would camp out at certain studios like wolves waiting for somebody in a group to flub his lines often enough to cause the producer to try someone who could get it right before the time ran out.

This wasn't unique to G&H, Motown did it before them. Even smaller labels. The Ponderosa Twins Plus One biggest hit, a remake Sam Cooke's "You Send Me," features the lead singer of the Elements on the opening lead lines because the guy in Twins couldn't get it right.

By Carl Dixon London (195.153.219.170 - 195.153.219.170) on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:01 pm:

Bobby - remind me about The Volcanoes. Did you play on any of thier stuff? I bought 'Laws of Love' back in 74 after I heard it down the local disco. Raw, or what?

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 11:12 pm:

First of all before I go on, it was not my intention to offend anyone regarding my commentary about a certain culinary delicacy
coupled with a well know imbibement.
For those who took it personally I must apologise .
Most of us old timers on the forum are known for our humour and wit .
My Italian brethren do not take it personal when Paulie 3 shoes comes on with his "shtick about being connected and speaking with the jargon" and I certainly do not take it personal when "Yiddishisms" are mentioned.
Once again, it was only done in jest .
For those on this forum who have known me for a very long time they know that I am not a racist.
Infact, I am engaged to a beautiful African-American woman and I was married to one for 20 years.

Oh and by the way, I enjoy a plate of chitterlings sometimes although I do not use a 40 ounce as my drink of choice--- I like a nice bottle of Perrier-Jouvet French champagne with mine>

Peace

Eli

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.3 - 195.219.7.3) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:51 am:

Hey Bobby,I think that Paulie 3 shoes is one of the most funniest guys around.He has me in convulsions,with his crazy jargons.Its great when you can laugh at things,theres far too many serious heads,when they should just chill out for once in a while.Nuff said,was it you Bobby that worked with the group Blue Magic?And who do you know thats still around from the Arctic days.I Almost had a full set of Arctic releases,but still today have a few,All The Volcanos stuff,Barbara Masons,Bobby is my Baby(your not going to tell me this is about you,are you),The Tiffanies,A Double-sided blank Labeled copy of Kenny Gambles,The Jokes on you,down by the sea shore,aint it baby,plus others.I Also had Jimmy Bishops track which I think was no1 in the Series,but I personally didnt take to it.I Have a nice copy of Soul Groove(pts1&2)by Teddy &The Fingerpoppers,can you tell me anything on this group.Also can you recall The Temptones?I Know Daryl hall sang with them,I Have a nice pic of The Temptones with The Temptations all have there hands overlapping one anothers,Could of been taken back stage at the Apollo,cant remember off hand.Also a cracking shot of the Lovely Barbara Mason.Alas The ones like Billy Floyds,Herb Johnson tracks have flown threw the roof these days,price wise.Ill leave it there for now Bobby,and would appreciate any feedback with thanks,MEL.

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:21 pm:

KevGo,

It's true that the Philly Box was not going to chart on Billboard's top 200, but it's not really comparable to projects that you see advertised heavily on TV and cable like Pure Moods or the Chcago and Rolling Stones and Elvis compilations. Those records chart like new albums but the cost to buy time on TV and cable is huge.

I think i'm saying something hopeful when I mention that someone in a major once told me that midprice or budget compilations stay in the catalogue unless they fail to sell 3,000 pieces in a year. That's not to, to, hard to do unless there really was a mistake made in laying it out in the distribution chain. I can't imagine that the Philly Box was some kind of dire disappointment; the reissue departments have a very specific and regulated (meaning uninflated) sense of what things should be selling. I thought that if anything, it was the price point of the box that might have made it sell less than other comparable things. And the fact that Sony had used and used and used "Love Train" and the like on just every possible other kind of compilation. Possibly, you are right that obscurities might have driven that box better.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.59.238 - 66.218.59.238) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 04:10 am:

Santa wants his two bucks.

By Paulie 3 Shoes (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 06:19 pm:

Hey Mel,
It's Paulie over here. T'anks fer da ting dat ya sed about me. If ya ever need anyting ANYTING jus let me know. i got all kinda connexions all over da place.
By da way, why is it and them some?!%
Scusa me fer da typing cuz dis computer s**t gives me da ageda.

By KevGo (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 12:51 am:

KevGo here. Thank you Brian Chin for your perspective on the sales of reissues and the Philly Int'l boxed set. I do hope someone releases an anthology that chronicles the entire Philly Sound from all labels involved from ArticJJamie-Guyden-Phil LA of Soul labels to the Gamble/Huff masters. As for my brohter Bobby Eli, don't sweat the reactions of those who may be a bit sensitive. I know that in your heart you were trying to be funny and that you meant no malice. Let's put this episode behind us and move on.
Peace and blessings,
KevGo

By JSmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 07:53 am:

Bobby,
Do you know why the Philly Groove label (Delfonics, etc.) seemed to go almost straight from having worldwide hits to a nondescript outfit struggling to even get it's releases out. Was this Stan Watson's doing, coz he didn't reinvest the money made to cut further top quality tracks. I know the label soldiered on thru the rest of the 70's (even gaining a major distribution deal for a while -- with WB if my memory isn't playing tricks on me) but they were never again a force to be reckoned with. By the end of the decade, when the respected Cleveland group Truth cut for the label, their record instantly disappeared without trace.

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 09:45 am:

mr. Eli how come thier are two groups of delfonics and witch one puts on the better show in youre book.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.19 - 195.219.7.19) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 10:09 am:

Hey Paulie,Its magic to hear from ya mate,I think your items are the buisness when you log on.Sometimes I think its Bugsy Moran or one of the boys on line.The And Then Some you asked about was taken from a U.K. Soul City record Label that had on it,Soul City (music as deep as you like and then some)I Just used the and then some as a kind of marker after all my correspondence with anyone.I first used it about 25years ago and its just stayed with me.Take it easy Paulie,looking forward to all your future items.MEL(ANDTHENSOME)P.S.(AL CAPONES GUNS DONT ARGUE).

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:41 am:

Eli here!

First, regarding the Philly Groove issue.
The label was introduced in 1966 with the Delfonics as their first act.
The unfortunate thing about the whole thing was that Stan Watson, although he had good intentions, was a former "ambulance chaser" i.e. one who tries to get to the scene of an accident first to capitalizeon the insurance and hustle some cash out of it.
Secondly, he was the quintessential "diamond in the back sunroof top sort" and if you listen to
that song it sums up Stan. Typical 70's pimp daddy type and somewhat of a thug although he treated us as musicians fairly nd he could have been a force to be reckoned with had his agenda been straight.
Sadly, he got into the drug world and as a result he had a stroke and was in a nursing home for a long time, but he now lives with his sister , Shirley, not very far from Bunny Sigler and Paulie 3 Shoes!!

Regarding the Delfonics.

William and Wilburt Hart had a disagreement based to Wilbur being envious of William because he wrote all of the hits, and deservedly so.
The only hit the Wilbur wrote was "Hey Love" and he wanted more of his songs recorded but William was the better writer.
So Wilbur quit and started his own Delfonics.
William then placed an injunction on his brother and disallowed him from using the name so he changed it to Wilbur Hart and the DELPHONICS complete with a web siteto go aong with it.
The Wiliam Hart group has revolving members...sometimes Major, sometimes Randy..sometimes Frank Washington of the Futures..Garfield Fleming.etc. n the words of Forest Gump, it is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you'll get.

Eli

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:11 pm:

mr Eli thanks for the info also I would like to know what happen to the intruders also whats going on with russell thompkins jr did he lose his voice.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:47 pm:

Hi Thom,
Regrding The Intruders, three of the original members are now deceased. The first one to pass was Eugene "Bird" Daughtry from cancer, the next one was lead singer Sammy "Litle Sonny" Brown from
a suicide by taking a leap from a bridge, brought on by depression after the death of his mom and
"Bird" and the next was "Big Sonny" I saw Phil Terry in May and he is doing well and looks good. There is a set of new Intruders carrying the torch and sanctioned by Phil Terry.

By AH (64.159.100.106 - 64.159.100.106) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 04:11 pm:

Thanks for the Intruders' info Bobby. I had heard of Eugene Daugherty's death, even got the obit from a Philly paper; guy had about 30 kids, that they knew of. I heard that Little Sonny passed as well but couldn't confirm it. Big Sonny's passing is sad news to me. The Intruders harmony blend was vastly underrated.

They were a popular of group in Cleveland. I hear Philadelphians were divided down the middle with ardent Delfonics' fans and equally as ardent Intruders' fans.

It's not surprising that Phil Terry is the sole surviving member. According to those who knew them personally he was the most businesslike and wasn't saddled with the demons that possessed the others. If I'm wrong on this point please correct me.

I know you go back a long way with these guys (Ben-Lee Records). Whatever happened to Bobby Starr, the singer who replaced Little Sonny for a while and sung lead on "When We Get Married" and "This is My Love Song?"

By Eli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 08:19 pm:

Yes it is so sad that Philly lost so many of its fine artists. The intruders go back to 1961 when they recorded for the tiny Gowen label with I'm Sold On You/bw Come home home soon which was a two sided radio staple at the time.
When I first heard Sonny's lead voice I just knew in my young heart that they were special. I had the pleasure of meeting them that Summer at a show
at the Dell theatre where I was accompanying Fat Johnny and the Philadelphians. I had put some Noxema on my face and I turned beet red and I was in the Intruders dressing room and they had a hearty laugh over it and we were friends ever since. When they came over to G&H I had already known them for several years.
My secret wish for a time was to have produced a duet between Little Sonny and Barbara Mason because in my opinion they both had similar whiny voices that would have complimented one another.
I remember one time back in 1984, there was a rehearsal for a show about unsung Philly Heroes and Sonny was there and by then the ravages of drink and drugs were playing havoc on him and he was rambling incoherently as if he had Tourettes syndrome!!
And yes Phil Terry was always the business guy in the group and was the glue which kept them together. His first tenor was a very distinct part of their background harmony.

The Delfonics , having come along at basically the same time worked many a tour together with the Intruders, and in fact Dennis Harris the fine guitarist who came in with us some time later worked on the road with both acts at different times.
All in all, both groups set the standart for what son became know as The Sound Of Philadelphia!!

By FransBigSister (151.199.242.104 - 151.199.242.104) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:04 pm:

---this stuff is mindboggling. Seriously,
you guys should get together and write a book.
Each time I log on it's like one of those old
serial shows, I just can't wait to read the next
installment. What's really amazing is that you
can remember so many details.
Marilyn

By mhc (172.153.128.120 - 172.153.128.120) on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

That's a very sad story about Sonny from The Intruders. I really loved their records: "Friends No More", "A Love That's Real"; that stuff just goes right to your heart, if you've got one. Bobby, somebody above asked if you played electric sitar on The Delfonics' records and I was waiting for you to answer. Didyou?

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 08:21 am:

mr Eli what songs have you & William Hart wrote also what happend to Thom bell brother Tony Bell.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:43 am:

Hi Marshall,

Yup!!T'was me indeed!! The Coral electric sitar which sold for around $250,and now costs around $2ooo-$3ooo if you can find one!!
It was played with a slight lower mid-boost on the amp so it would not come across too tinny.
I guess that I was akin to Dennis Coffey in Philly as I was the "Swiss army knife" of axe men as I was the utility guy and the dude with all of the gadgets and sounds.

Thom, The songs written by William and I were in recent times and never released commercially--yet.
As for Tony Bell, he tried too hard to walk in Thom's footsteps resulting in mental illness. No one seems to know his whereabouts as of this writing.

By Brian Chin NYC (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:56 am:

Bobby,

I wondered: have you heard the reggae versions of your R&B songs? As you probably know, those Jamaicans "version" a hit tune dozens of times, but Barry Biggs' version of "Sideshow" is a legendary hit of romantic reggae, and Richard Ace's version of "Just Don't Want To Be Lonely," produced by Harry Johnson (he made "The Liquidator," the basis of "I'll Take You There")is beautifully put together in a genre most noted for the charm of brilliant mistakes. I'll send them if you don't have them...

Regards, Brian

By Paulie 3 shoes (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:57 am:

Dis is Paulie (over here)

Uh, I tink dat when youse guise hav dat get togedder in Detroit, I will come too cause I hoid t'ru sum peoples dat my paisan Eli will be dere
an' youse will see dat we r not da same guise.
I got sum connections in East Detroit in da laundry bizness capice? Get my drift?!
I cant talk right now the feds might be checking dis ting over here. Uh...I am just lookin over my shoulder too see.
Uh..wait a minit, I gotta ask sum 1 sometin..
Hey Vito..waddya say da name of dat guy is we gotta connect wit?!
Uh..ralph whut? Ter..ter...uh..Terrana is he a paisan?? We'll check em out.

Gotta go someone is tappin da wires!!!

By john c (12.2.233.107 - 12.2.233.107) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

Marshall,

Thanks for bringing up the electric sitar question I asked earlier.

Mr. Eli,

I actually was wondering about the Stylistic's electric sitar sound and whose idea it was to use it. It worked. It's gorgeous.

By Eli 6 Srings (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 06:26 pm:

All of the sitar stuff was me. Anything that was "effected" was me as well as the backbeats. Many times I have played several guitar parts on a song as in For the Love of Money and Hope that we can get together soon. Norman Haris was always the "mellow man" as in the octave "Wes Montgomery " type stuff excepet on the afforementioned title as I was the only guitar on that date.
The sitar stuff was originally an accidental experiment on Didn't I ...by the Delfonics. The instrument was in the storage room and was dusty with old srings but I dusted it off and at first someone(mum's the word) did a "711" voice like an Indian person and poked fun at it. But I shrugged it off and the rest they say is a mystery!!!
I also played the backbeats on those records.
Usually the backbeats were on the basic track and I overdubed the sitar, but sometimes it was reversed depending on the song.

By Larry (216.23.183.2 - 216.23.183.2) on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 07:23 pm:

Mister Eli!
The more I read of your posts and posts about you I had to stop and say "who is the Eli dude"? Got my answer:
http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=product&id=1927057711

I'm blown away by your output and the legends (your contemporaries) you've recorded with.
It's an honor Sir!

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 12:41 am:

Larry,
Thanks for the props. Go onto www.allmusic.com and you will find an extensive discography on not only me but just about anyone you can think of. Just enter the name and a lot of stuff will come up.
Cheers!

Bobby Eli

By JSmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:43 am:

Bobby,
With regard to the Delfonics, you stated... The Wiliam Hart group has revolving members ...sometimes Major, sometimes Randy... sometimes Frank Washington of the Futures ..Garfield Fleming, etc..........
Thought you might like to know that both the Futures and Garfield Fleming have cuts that are very popular with the UK modern soul fans (Garfield's being "Don't Send Me Away").

By Eli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 09:27 am:

Garfield has sort of a David Ruffin/Bobby Womack texture in his voice. Frank Washington has filled in for william on occasion. Infact, when they were on the Arsenio Hall show, it was Frank who did the leads. He is very adaptable in his approach and his lead on Part Time Party Time Man in outstanding!!

By AH (67.25.176.97 - 67.25.176.97) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 10:28 am:

Bobby,

Part Time Party Time Man was the Future's greatest recording. Why this record wasn't a smash hit is a mystery. I also liked a song they did earlier on Gamble Records entitled "Love Is Here," which the Dramatics redid later.

The Delfonics that come to Cleveland as part of an oldie show with the Stylistics and others is the William Hart group. So far it has always consisted of William Hart, Major Harris and Randy Cain. On one occasional William couldn't make it and it must have been Frank who took his place, but I'm not sure of this. He was about the same height as William and had some front teeth missing. He only did two leads, neither of which could be called enthralling. But it seemed as if he was summoned at the last moment.

We never get Wilbert Hart's Delphonics, which I hear from acquaintances in Jersey and Philly are a better group.

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 01:28 pm:

mr Eli why havent Blue Magic put guess who on thier grastest hit cd the same with the Delfonics on he dont really love,and youve been untrue great songs people need to hear those lost classics.Thom

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.115 - 195.219.7.115) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 03:16 pm:

Bobby,Ive been reading about The Delfonics and also The Trammps,from 2 old 1975 Blues and Soul magazines.In these and earlier editions there were some excellent articles called The Philly File,and done by a now well known 80s record (pop)producer,Pete Waterman(Of Stock,Aitken&Waterman)who I was once told had a great collection of the Arctic record label,as he also used to D.J.at some clubs in the Coventry area,over here.A while ago I had the pleasure of correspnding on this site to Mr Weldon A.MacDougal.I Honestly admit that at the time I Didnt have a clue who he was,and ashamedly did not know the vast amount that you had done regards the Delfonics,Blue Magic etc,until my good mate filled me in no end.Especially raving about the track Sideshow etc of yours.anyway,back to the aforementioned articles in Blues & Soul.A Mr Ronnie Barker is raved about in the studios of Sigma.Session men there,about to do a few album tracks on The Trammps(On Golden Fleece)were,Ron Kersey,Bobby Eli(whos he?),Vince Montana,Earl Young,Norman Harris and Larry Washington.All done in 4 takes.But the best is on Blue Magic.It states that the last time they were in London,they were returning home somewhat distraught because(and this is a pearler)they had been requested to leave The Ike and Tina Turner European tour for no apparent reasonexcept that they set the husband and wife team too high a standard to follow and it caused a problem that Ike and Tinararely face.(Ill Say)Where as Ted Mills phlosophically says,Thats all a part of growing up for an act I guess.Wow these guys must of totally blew Ike and Tina to bits.Now that is something you never hear of this day and age,or then.MAGIC.I Just thought you would like to of heard that bit of Legendary nolstalgia.MEL.(P.S.)Weldon A.MacDougal is one real sound guy(and then some).

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.35 - 195.219.7.35) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 04:54 pm:

Paulie 3 Shoes,way,way,back somewhere above,you asked me about the and then some,slight error that I have just seen.Regards the Record Label it came from,it should have read,Soul as Deep as you Like,and Then Some.Not what is stated on the above item.MEL.

By mhc (172.147.132.194 - 172.147.132.194) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

Bobby, you should be on a Topps trading card for playing electric sitar on "Didn't I Blow Your Mind" Do they have a "Great American Studio Musicians" Series? They should.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4 - 209.100.86.4) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 07:31 pm:

Good idea about the trading cards!
What are the electric sitar's greatest hits?
Here's a few...
"Hooked on a Feeling"
"Didn't I Blow Your Mind This Time"
"Band of Gold"
"You Are Everything"
"Green Tamborine"
The latest use 1991 "It Ain't Over Till It's Over"
by Lenny Kravitz.
My personal favorite - "Come And Get Your Love" by Redbone.
Any others???

By LTLFTC (12.245.225.79 - 12.245.225.79) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 08:08 pm:

The Box Tops "Cry Like A Baby"; Parliaments' "Osmium" album-is that Dennis Coffey by any chance? Aren't there a couple more Stylistics' hits w/sitar that escape me at the moment?
Steve K.

By Caleb (209.244.235.199 - 209.244.235.199) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 09:57 pm:

Yes Steve K.-"You Make Me Feel Brand New" had it. Also,"How Could I Let You Get Away"-The Spinners.

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 10:16 pm:

Paint It Black, by the Stones, Shame Shame Shame by Shirley and Co. (just the zinging effect), "Maybe Tomorrow," by the Jackson 5, probably the most Philly-like record Motown ever made that was not an actual cover.

By Caleb (65.59.97.221 - 65.59.97.221) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:54 am:

There was tune on a Deniece Williams album called "Waiting" that had some nice sitar work.I believe Eli played the part."Maybe Tomorrow"-J5 was a good one.

By The Jive-Guy (195.219.7.16 - 195.219.7.16) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 09:33 am:

I Thought the piece by Mel regards the philadelphia group,Blue magic and Ike and Tina Turner was fascinating.It is rare to have a new band outshine experienced stars,especially when you are of the ilk of the Turners.Thanks for sharing that article from Blues and soul with us Mel.Respect,The Jive-Guy.

By john c (12.2.233.107 - 12.2.233.107) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 10:25 am:

Is that one on Signed, Sealed, Delivered?

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4 - 209.100.86.4) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:24 pm:

Wow! I was missing quite a few songs. I think "Paint It Black" might have been an actual sitar played by Brian Jones.

I might have to move my favorite vote to Signed, Sealed, Delivered!

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 01:49 pm:

good point...was "Norwegian Wood" a real sitar or electric?

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.57 - 195.219.7.57) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:01 pm:

Hey fellas there was an instrumental that got played on the u.k.Northern Soul Scene around 1975 by a Lord Sitar and called Paint it Black.Obviously the inst.of The Stones number.Afast and furious number,I Think it was a Simon Soussan production.Which was released/bootlegged?on the Soul Galore record Label.(saw a documentary on Ravi Sankas daughter and she is certainly following in his footsteps)By the way,is it true that a Sitar is a lot harder to play than a guitar?MEL.

By KevGo (12.84.109.51 - 12.84.109.51) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:26 pm:

Hey Bobby,
KevGo here...I'm in Chicago on business (and checking out the Chess Records Museum...cool place!)and I came across a record shop on South Cottage Grove where I purchased a 45 of "Love Chant" by your group Eli's Second Coming. While I don't have a turntable with me could you tell me who was in your band as well as any background regarding Silver Blue records (I know Jerry Ross produced Jay & the Techniques "I Feel Love Coming On" for Silver Blue). Also picked up an early Gamble/Huff production on Atco by Dee Dee Sharp -"My Best Friend's Man" b/w "Bye Bye Baby" (Side A written by Kenny Gamble and Jimmy Bishop and the flip written by Leon Huff & _________Scott). Any info on that single? Thanks.
KevGo

By AH (64.159.100.153 - 64.159.100.153) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:52 pm:

KevGo that's Cindy Scott (nee Sundray Tucker). She was Leon Huff's writing partner before he hooked up with Kenny Gamble.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4 - 209.100.86.4) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:10 pm:

Hey Brian,
Norwegian Wood was a real sitar. I think George bought a cheap one before he ever studied with Ravi Shankar.

Mel- Was that documentary about Daya Shankar or his other daughter Norah Jones? I haven't heard Daya, but the Nora Jones CD is great. It's on the Capital label.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33 - 136.1.1.33) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:16 pm:

As cool as Eli's sitar work was on the Delfonics track, he also deserves some kind of special producer award for coming this close (imagine my thumb and finger very close to each other) to making Engelbert Humperdinck cool in the mid 70s. My mom's always been a big Engelbert fan and I have to admit that the couple of tracks he cut with him stuck out as pretty good to my then 8-year-old ears). Oops! I meant to change my Username for this post so as not to lose my "street cred" Oh well.

Regards,
Ken

By john c (12.2.233.107 - 12.2.233.107) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:28 pm:

I just went out for lunch and heard electric sitar on Judy In Disguise - John Fred (the novelty ending). But it only shows how Bobby Eli could take a novelty sound and turn it into something beautiful.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.88 - 195.219.7.88) on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 03:34 pm:

Steve,the documentary was about his daughter Daya,and,as you would expect,was damned impresive to say the least.It also had her preforming in front of her old man for the first time.The 2 guys with her on the Bongos were totally out of this world man.A Good programme all round.MEL.

By Eli (170.115.179.106 - 170.115.179.106) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 03:14 pm:

Wow there is oo much for me to answer today so I think I will do it in segments.
Yes all of the sitar things out of Philly are little old me!!

Eli's Second Coming I would rather forget as it was too discoish for my taste, although Love Chant was somewhat of a hit and a favorie among the gay African - American croud for its sleasy downtempo groove and the male-female orgasmic interplay( Ron Kersey and Barbara Ingram)
The rest of the album can be used for a frisby!!
It was MFSB in disguise!! Same guys and gals.

Livonia, Englebert was an experiment based on a comment made by me in Miami that at the time he was kinda cold and he should be revived!!
Wouldn't you know that as soon as I got back to Philly I read that he was appearing in Philly.
So I rang up the venue ande asked to speak to him, as I worked with The 3 Degrees as an opening
act for him al over the US and got to know him then.
He asked me what was up and I mentioned that my song Love Wont Let Me Wait was a smash and he said" you're joking, we just added ot to our repertoire!!" So I said, "so lets get together soon, I will play you some songs"
So I did and he love them and told the company that he wanted me to produce and jumped at the opportunity to record in Philly.
So I had the "full monty" MFSB, the girls, you name it, so essentially it was an MFSB album featuring Engelbert!!!
Ilove to pull rabbits out hats.

By the way, I don't mention it a lot because of MY street cred!!

Eli (Over here)

By padgburyman (195.93.34.13 - 195.93.34.13) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 04:14 pm:

Hey Eli,

I doubt anything could damage your 'street cred' -not even Engelbert!

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.152.205 - 212.137.152.205) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

hi bobby glad to see you back ,been of the net lately due to work commitments,sheilas got a new show over here(o what a night) will go backstage and give her your contact details ,now the bad news ,i read in a newspaper 2 months ago ,that bobby martin passed away ,with a massive heart attack in new york, the news story said it was the legendary philly producer , i cant rember the news paper title ,but can someone confirm?
i bought that eng album ,also elis last chance album ,with eli suppling, orgasms,blimey (you must frighten the missus at night)
speak to ya later ,eli on the land line

By JSmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 04:12 am:

Bobby,
I know we keep firing lots of questions at you, but you keep coming up with the answers so can you blame us. After your input on the Philly Groove label, what can you tell us about Crimson. I know the label was tied in with the reissue outfit Lost Nite but apart from that, I know nothing. They of course had hits on the Soul Survivors and put out good stuff by Lee Andrews & the Hearts + the Brothers Two (who were these guys ?), Damon Fox, etc. but who else was at the label.

By JSmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:19 am:

Bobby,
It's me again (don't groan).
Just been checking the web site for the Philly Music Org (this states it details the major players on the local music scene, singers, musicians, etc). Apart from the fact that it implies that Lee Andrews and the Hearts split up for good in the late 50's, it has no details at all on the Sigma Studio musicians. Surely this is an oversight that you should set about trying to recify.
Anyone wanting to check the site, go to......
www.phillymusic.org/starindex.html

By KevGo (12.84.111.38 - 12.84.111.38) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 11:58 am:

Brian:
I read that same item regarding "Bobby Martin" in the papers. It is NOT the Bobby Martin of MFSB/Philly fame - our beloved Bobby Martin is still alive and well and living in Washington State.
KevGo

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:21 pm:

mr.Eli have you heard or did you do some tracks on russell thompkins jr new cd and do you know who produce it.

By JSmith (212.39.231.20 - 212.39.231.20) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 02:53 am:

Bobby has been very quiet on here recently but maybe someone else will be able to answer these questions if he is not about.
Anyone know who the Hidden Cost were who recorded "Vibrations" on Marmaduke in 73 ??. Bobby co-wrote the tune and it certainly features some funky guitar playin (Bobbi himself ??).
Also anyone know anything about Sunshine Records (of Pennsyvania) who released L C Grier's "Gone is the Laughter of You". This cut was produced & arranged by Bobby and the 45's label also states guitar played by Bobby Eli.

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.73 - 66.218.40.73) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 02:59 am:

Santa wants his two bucks.

By thom (209.69.165.10 - 209.69.165.10) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 02:52 pm:

MR.Eli what's going on. I would like to know what happend to Honey and the Bees. Also didn't Wilbert Hart write for them.

By Caleb (64.157.79.38 - 64.157.79.38) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

Bobby,were you ever able to talk with Thom Bell?

By brianday@cwcom.net (212.137.146.235 - 212.137.146.235) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:33 pm:

thanks for the info on bobby martin , good to hear hes still alive ,maybe oneday he will be on the forum ? where is everyone now days,it seems quiet, maybe they are still waiting ,for this forum to re install all the old files

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:46 am:

I'll add another question to Bobby's queue - do you know who played bass on Dee Dee Sharp's "Mashed Potato Time"? This is one of the few bass lines from that era that came close to what Jamerson was doing at Motown, IMO. I'm guessing you might know since she was from Philly.

- Gary Rosen

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.92 - 195.219.7.92) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 07:31 am:

JSmith,talking of Crimson records and also T.Bell on my Demo of Ive Had It by Lee Andrews and The Hearts which is actually the b side to Little Bird.Anyway the Ive Had It track was arranged by Mr.Thom Bell.(or as Tommy Bell as it states on the disc).I Will have to dig out my Never the less by Lee Andrews also on Crimson and see if Mr.Bell had anything to do with that.MEL.

By ted cogswell (165.121.43.208 - 165.121.43.208) on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 08:36 pm:

What an amazing thread!! We can't get enough Bobby Eli, that's for sure.

So here's one for ya',... I also posted this question at the Philly Soul group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/phillysoul/), but I thought coming here and asking Mr. Eli could proove to be more productive.

I was wondering what you could tell me about Billy Bass of "I Need Your Love So Bad" fame. What else did he do besides that Philly Groove single (and are you on it?), and what's his background?

Thanks in advance!!

- ted from seattle

By Livonia Ken (206.148.225.131 - 206.148.225.131) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 01:50 am:

Billy "Bass" Nelson was the original Funkadelic bassist. I believe he also played bass on most of the Temptations' "A Song for You" LP including the title song (my second favorite version next to Donny Hathaway's) and "Shakey Ground" with fellow Funkadelic refugee Eddie Hazel on guitar.

As far as P-Funk bassists, he had more of a "rock in the pocket" feel than some of the players who came later such as Bootsy Collins, Cordell Mosson, or the very jazzy Rodney Curtis. He played on their first three albums except for the stuff that Bob Babbit did on the first one. You can even hear him breaking in a new drummer on the Funkadelic Live at Meadowbrook CD.

There aren't two Billy Bass-es, are there?

Regards,
Ken

By ted cogswell (165.121.24.73 - 165.121.24.73) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 04:42 am:

I think there definitely might be.

By Eli (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 07:32 am:

Hi, Bobby Eli here!!
Sorry to have been out of comission here as of lately. I have ben extremely busy in the studio and also am in the processof moving . I am in NyC and I have just arisen from a deep slep. As soon as I recover sufficiently I will answer all of the queries!
I will answer one now to get it going. The Billy Bass on Philly Groove was not the Bass of bass. He was somewhat of a player in other circles i.e. somewhat of a man about town who was a friend of Stan Watson and not much of a singer and therfore cut a few unspectaculer sides for Philly Groove.

Eli

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 12:15 pm:

Pleased to hear from you Bobby.

David

By ted cogswell (165.121.40.164 - 165.121.40.164) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

Interesting,... that makes "I Need Your Love So Bad" all the more impressive. I don't know what any of his other sides sounded like, but that one is sweet. The discography in the "Deep in the Philly Groove" cd booklet only lists the one single (and the B isn't on "Deeper in...", which probably means that it is indeed "unspectacular").

"Somewhat of a man about town," huh? Sounds like there is a story there.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

The man about town reference implies that there was somewhat of a "pimp mentality" at P.G.
Stan W. who was the poster child for "diamond in the back...sunrof top, diggin the scene with a GANGSTER LEAN" and his friend and look alike who called himself Coupe De Ville named after the Cadillac and his bar just down the street from the first P.G. ofice at 52nd and Spruce now occupied by Big Georges Soul food (excellent indeed, I must say)
Billy Bass was a similar character in their company. Then there was club owner Gus "Mr . Silk" Lacy. Thats another story unto itself. %2nd street at that time was quite the "pimp strip" if you will and a lively area to say the least. When I played with Herb Johnson and the mpacts in my late teens, we frequented the strip quite a bit.
Some feat for a white Jewish kid barely out of puberty!!!

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 06:55 pm:

Hi Guys and gals!!
Eli here. Just woke up from a much needed nap. Boy was I knackered!!
Now to answer some questions.
Crimson was a short lived label owned by Jerry Green,and Jared Cohen who owned the Record Museum stores, along with partner Nat Segal and old 50's record veteran who co-owned the Sound and Teen labels. Jerry Green is the owner of the huge Collectables label in Philly. Lost nite was the predessor of Lost Nite.
The Brothers Two were James Tindal of The Dials and The Teen Kings and the late Eddie Smalls.

The bassist on Mashed Potato Time was Joe Macho( prounced Macko)He was the Cameo- Parkway house bassist. That label was known for copying the current song trends. In that case it was "Please Mr. Postman" The rest were Joe Renzetti on guitar (I own the 50's Fender tweed amp he played though on those songs including the Twist) Bobby Gregg on drums, Buddy Savitt in sax and Dave Appell on piano.(usually although he was primarily a guitarist by trade.)
It was recorded in the original Cameo Studio at 1405 Locust st on the 6th floor. It was quite makeshift. I auditioned there with a vocal group when I was fourteen. I was the sole white guy, sort of. It was the first time that I ever stepped foot in a "studio" He told us to come back when we grow up!! I reminded Dave Appell of that incident years later.

Honey and the Bees went back to their hive!!
Nadine "Honey" Felder was thelook alike sister of te late and great Allan Felder one of the great Philly songwriters.

The Hidden Cost was essentialy te MFSB rhythm section under one of our many nom de plumes.
If you listen to the song Bo Did It by the Hidden Cost, Earl Young says "who did it" and I answer "Bo did it!" We must have been under the influence of some kind of wacky drug to even come up with such a corny record. I think that it was Marmaduke's owner Bernie Binnick, God bless him who suggested it. He was the man who fronted Dick Clark's Swan label in Philly and a kind man indeed.
Gone is the laughter... was a track from the ultra rare "Free The Black Man's Chains" album on GSF which was supposed to become a play. I am so glad that it did not for the "execs" had no clue whatsoever about the Black experiene.
L.C. Grer was a member of The Broad Street Gang on Condor.
The Philly Music Alliance is a bullshit orginization who also have no clue. They have a somewhat bogus "walk of fame" on south Broad street and they used to have a bullshit awards ceremony. Would you believe Billy Joel was inducted as well as some other non-Philly people.
Baker Harris and Young got a walk of fame award and were inducted. WhenI found out about it I rang them up and asked "what about me" and they replied that they never heard of me!!
I told them that I played on loads more records than they collectively did. The said "you can always vote for yourself!!"

Sometime later,the "woman" from the organization came to Sigma while I was doing a session there and I let her have a piece of of my mind, and it was not to pleasant of an experience for her.
I heard that she is now a maid in a cheap motel.
Could that per chance have been the work of "Paulie 3 Shoes"!!!
I will never tell!!!!

OMERTA!!

By BOB BABBITT (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 04:31 am:

HEY MO-FU..........THE BABBITT HERE..........
HOPE ALL IS WELL WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!
JUST THOUGHT I'D LET YOU KNOW THAT THE NEW YORK PREMIER WILL BE NOV 7TH AND THE FUNK'S WILL ALSO PLAY LIVE AFTER THE SHOWING OF THE FILM.........
HOPE YOU CAN BE THERE!!!!!!!!!!WILL POST TIMES AND PLACES AS SOON AS I KNOW........

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.118 - 195.219.7.118) on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 06:03 am:

Bobby,I Appreciate your a busy guy and everything,but is there any chance of you answering a few of my questions from way back on this thread.Understand if you cant.With thanks.MEL.

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

Hey mel, you can ask me anything that you want and it will be my pleasure to answer them .
The sames goes for anyone else who has a query.
I am about to start a second thread"Eli's coming again" as this one is getting long.
Hey Babbitt, you know that I will be there. Just let me know al of the particulars.

Cheers