By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:37 pm:

Just a long-shot here... Does anyone have a tracklisting for the Platters' "Sweet Sweet Lovin'" album. It was issued on Stateside in 1967/8, and the UK issue had a different tracklisting to the US original on Musicor. I used to have this album, and would like to "reconstruct" it on CD. I have the US issue, but it's not quite the same. Any clues...?

By AH (65.238.172.46 - 65.238.172.46) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 06:45 pm:

Your wish is my command Ritchie.

MS-3156-Musicor
Sweet, sweet lovin' -- Pledging my love -- The more I see you -- How beautiful our love is -- The great pretender -- Doesn't it ring a bell -- Twilight time -- Baby, baby -- The wonder of you -- Sonata.

By Mark Speck (64.158.97.103 - 64.158.97.103) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 11:53 pm:

"Sweet Sweet Lovin'", "How Beautiful Our Love Is", and "Doesn't It Ring a Bell"--three great tracks! (two dancers and a great ballad).

Best,

Mark

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 04:31 am:

Andrew

Thanks for the tracklist - that's the US issue, which I have. The UK version was different - the recut of Great Pretender was not included, and there were 16 tracks, instead of the ten on the original US issue - so I'm still looking :o)

I remember a couple of of the "extra" tracks - "What Name Shall I Give You" - or something similar, and a version of "I'm Sorry" (which I didn't know was a recut at the time!)

The quest goes on :o)

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.110 - 195.219.7.110) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 09:27 am:

What about see no evil,hear no evil,speak no evil by The truly magical Platters on Musicor.MEL.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.46 - 195.219.7.46) on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Or SHING-A-LING-A-LOO by the PLATTERS.MEL.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 02:47 pm:

The Platters released the mighty "Going Back To Detroit" album on Musicor. In it they sing of "feeling lonely for 12th and Blaine"... a great line.

Kent released a tremendous cd comp of their Musicor work a few years ago.

In it is the Van McCoy winner "The Fear of Losing You". What a great track!

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 02:54 pm:

I loved Sonny Turners lead voice. It had character.
B.T.W. Back in the day around that time, I was making the rounds at the NYC record companies in my infancy, during the James Bounty era, and as I entered the lobby, there was Van McCoy announcing his arrival for a meeting with company president, Art Talmage, who, by the way was the head of United Artists during the early B.G. era!!!

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 03:04 pm:

Keep 'em coming Bobby. Interesting.

Good to see you in great form.

David

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 03:07 pm:

Wasn't Art Talmadge formerly with Mercury...?
(which would explain how the Platters ended up on Musicor.)

By Eli (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 03:29 pm:

Irwin Steinberg was the Mercury chief during that time and he was in fact founder of the company in 1945!!! The Platters signing was a coincidence and long afterthe original group lost its steam.
Art Talmage helmed the U.A. label from inception. The reason it was called United Artists was that the initial investors were several motion picture
stars, and a studio head of two. Kirk douglas being one of them.Originally all they released were soundtracks.
The early B.G. things along with Rock and roll age by the Four Jays and Youre so fine by The Falcons were some of the earliest non-soundtrack
items.

By AH (67.25.177.208 - 67.25.177.208) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 03:44 pm:

Edwin Starr and Sonny Turner grew up in the same neighborhood in Cleveland. Starr in the projects and Sonny on the edge of public housing around 46th and Central (now known as Community College Avenue). Sonny was a bit older and influenced Edwin Starr quite a bit.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 03:45 pm:

Thanks, Bobby, but didn't Art T have a stake in Musicor? I have a mid-70s 45 with his name on it.

And, just going from memory (dangerous, I know) weren't the original founders of United Artists Charles Chaplin, Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks Snr ?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 04:03 pm:

Looks like Sonny is still going strong:
http://www.sonnyturner.com/

Also, I note that Herb Reed now has the legal rights to the name "The Platters". Rather ironic, when you consider how long ago he actually left the group!

By AH (64.159.100.138 - 64.159.100.138) on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:15 pm:

There are many splinter Platters' groups around; most are sanctioned. Sonny soured on the recording business and its shenanigans and non payments. Which is a shame because he had one of the best voices I ever heard. There's a website that list all the various Platters' combinations over the years, it's fascinating how many ex Platters there are.

Most singers in Cleveland from that era tried to sing like Sonny Turner and only Edwin Starr came close. He was Charles Hatcher then and not the shouter and wailer you heard on Motown, in the local bars, he was known for singing ballads like "Never Let Me Go," etc.

By Jsmith (194.42.250.98 - 194.42.250.98) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 03:45 am:

I interviewed Edwin about his Cleveland days a couple of years back. He readily acknowledged that it was Sonny Turner who taught him to sing. He still remembered a lot about those times when I prompted him with group / venue names. He has used my article on his web site if anyone is interested in reading it.
A few years back (1998), in conjunction with Lou Ragland, I organised a live show / soul disco in Vegas. Sonny performed at this for us, belting out a great version of "With This Ring". I last saw Sonny in November 2000, when he attended a Tops / Temps performance at the Hilton in Vegas.

By David Meikle (213.122.110.195 - 213.122.110.195) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 03:56 am:

I have that article in a fanzine John.

A great insight into Edwin's pre Ric-Tic days.

Thanks.

By AH (65.238.127.248 - 65.238.127.248) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 06:41 am:

Sonny Turner most definitely influence Edwin Starr but he was the second person to teach him to sing. The first was Edwin's mother. Who not only taught Edwin to sing (made him practice everyday after school)but neighborhood singers like the guys who later became the Donations as well. Walter Johnson (who lived across the walkway from the Hatchers)a member of the Donations, says Mrs. Hatcher taught them how to sing harmony and says she was prime motivating factor in Charles becoming a singer. Johnson was friends with Edwin's brother Terry.

Edwin glances over his formative years in Cleveland and doesn't give that period the attention and credit it deserves. He grew up in the ninth largest city in the States (at the time)in an area loaded with singers: Johnny Moore (the Drifters), the Coronets, the Five Quails,the Hornets, Sonny Turner, and many others.

By PAULIE 3 SHOES (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 08:22 am:

YOUSE GUISE REALLY KNOW YOUR STUFF.
I WAS IN DA RACKETS IN CLEVELANDDID KID USE TA RUN MY NUMBERS. GOOD KID. LOVED DAT GABAGOOL TOO.
HIS MA MADE ONE HELLUVA POT OF GRAVY.

PAULIE

By AH (67.25.127.139 - 67.25.127.139) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 08:58 am:

Paulie if singers from the '60s and '70s want the public of all ages to take an interest in them and buy their products and help them get deals on major labels again all they have to do is open up and tell their true life stories. The public would be fascinated beyond belief. There is no hard investigative journalism going on here, and when that does take place, the info is not revealed for various reasons.

If the O'Jays, for instance, ever decides to relate their true life story and all the things they've been through it would be one fascinating book.

By scarfacednhardfaced (195.219.7.85 - 195.219.7.85) on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:49 pm:

Ho Paulie choo/choo, Bugsy Moran and Machine Gun Kelley,Loike a Well Dey say Ho how yo dooin. Gotta vamoose da Feds are onna hunch an everywhere.Yo paulie,like a Later,yo ol pal,DillingernBabyfaceNelson.rat-a-ta-tat.

By Mark Speck (65.56.217.174 - 65.56.217.174) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:11 am:

Andrew, have you checked out the group Sounds of Integrity yet? They're four great vocalists who play around the west side of Cleveland. One of them sang with Sonny Turner.

Best,

Mark

By AH (65.238.127.31 - 65.238.127.31) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:28 am:

No I haven't but I'll check them out. Do you know what member? I assume you mean sung with Sonny in the Metronomes who recorded on Reserve Records prior to Sonny joining the Platters.

Sonny Turner appeared on a radio show here about two months ago to promote an oldies show at Severance Hall. The host didn't know much about Turner and it wasn't what it should have been.

Mark if you're from Cleveland did you know that Bill Jacocks who I believe was the first Black television news anchor in Cleveland wrote songs for Reserve, possibly sung in a group there, and also wrote songs for Motown's Jobete publishing. No hits and the only one that came out was the A-side of the Creations' single on Melody Records. This had to be prior to his being the news anchor. There was a Creations group that recorded in Cleveland on one of Marty Conn's labels. One of the members was Annette Tucker who later became Edwin Starr's wife; I've been trying to find out if the two groups are the same for years. Can't contact Jacocks and Conn only knows about the record they made for him.

By David Meikle (213.122.193.214 - 213.122.193.214) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 03:59 am:

Andrew

Are you from Cleveland?

If so, do you know much about the Recording Studios operating there in the sixties?

By AH (63.188.32.11 - 63.188.32.11) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 07:19 am:

I know a little bit.

We had Agency, and many hopefuls started with Schneiders(sic).

There was Boddies who operated out of the owners' house and garage, H.B. Barnum and I hear HDH used Boddies sometimes when they were in town, or least this is the rumor. Boddie recorded a lot of people; he had his own labels, many of them, but most of the stuff never came out; a lot of gospel music too. People paid to use his studio. They say all the music Boddie recorded would fill a mini CD tower.

Way Out Records on 55th Street between Euclid and Chester also had a studio. But I don't know if they recorded everything there. One of the owners Lester Johnson let me hang out there. I was just a kid with some lyrics.

Of course, there were others.

By David Meikle (62.6.67.136 - 62.6.67.136) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 07:38 am:

Thanks Andrew

By AH (67.25.127.249 - 67.25.127.249) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 10:26 am:

Saru Records had a makeshift studio also, but I believe much of their recording was done at Agency.

The small companies here (all companies in Cleveland was small) mostly used professional studios as opposed to some of the obscure '60s soul from Philadelphia I've heard, some of which sound as if it was recorded in houses with mics and tape recorders but no buffers, specially built walls, or anything.

Unfortunately, oftentimes, the recording bill was not paid, which is the main reason you don't have compilation CDs of Cleveland recordings like you do some other cities. The companies that made the records often don't own or have the masters. The studios kept them cause the companies never paid their bills.

Supposedly, the guy who ran Agency took all the masters and relocated to Europe.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 11:44 am:

Would that be the same Saru that was the source of the handful of O'Jays tracks cut just before their PIR deal?

By AH (67.25.127.234 - 67.25.127.234) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:26 pm:

Correct Ritchie. Bobby Massey quit the O'Jays to head Saru's A&R. He didn't think going back with Gamble & Huff was a smart move, they had already been with G&H on Neptune Records (distributed by Chess), and that deal that went sour.

Saru had two other sister labels; Horoscope (later changed to Astroscope) and Pisces Records. All Platinum Records distributed certain records, I know they did the Twins'. Their big act was to be the Ponderosa Twins Plus One and the O'Jays. The Twins + 1 recorded a tune I wrote "I Remember You"; it was the B-side of "Bound" their follow up to "You Send Me." Eddie Levert loved the song and the O'Jays did a fantastic rendition that never came out or surfaced.

Ba-Roz (featuring Cynthia Woodard) who later toured with Tom Jones. Ba-Roz cut two singles, one "Come Back Boy," which I co-wrote was also recorded by Bobby Dukes as Come Back Girl but was never released. Duke's Saru single "Just To Be With You" was licensed to Calla Records. Calvin Simon produced Ba-Roz's second single "Mocking Bird." Other artists include Pandalla Kelly, David Peoples, the Elements, and the O'Jays.

Simon of Parliarment/Funkadellic was on hiatus and worked at Saru as a producer/songwriter. I still get chills remembering Simon and Bobby Massey harmonizing just for the hell of it.

Also Dunn Pearson (keyboardist/arranger) later of Ninth Street Exit and Dunn and Bruce Street. He wrote the theme for Miami Vice. Pearson was the Ponderosa Twins keyboard player and was a member of Saru's house band.

The company did a Motown Revue type show at a theater once featuring all the artists with the Ponderosa Twins Plus One headlining. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody recorded it, either on audio or film. I can't even find a flyer.

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.12 - 65.56.5.12) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:46 am:

Andrew,

Yes, I'm a lifelong Clevelander...the guy in Sounds of Integrity said he sang with Sonny in Vegas, so I doubt he had anything to do with the Metronomes.

Bill Jacocks, who used to live fairly close to where I live (I'm in the Collinwood/Euclid Beach area, he lived in Euclid), had one single I know of, on a label called Maggio: "You Are the One"/"Fickle Finger". I believe this got some play on the Modern soul front. Not sure of any bands he may have been with.

Best,

Mark

By AH (65.132.79.39 - 65.132.79.39) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:52 am:

Amazing, I never knew Bill Jacocks made a record; I discovered his Motown songs by accident. I'm beginning to believe the Motown Creations and the Creations who recorded for Marty Conn are the same group.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80 - 64.115.26.80) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:18 am:

In regards to United Artists, it was founded by Fairbanks, Pickford, et al as a way for actors to have a film company they could call their own. As for Art Talmadge, he acquired Musicor Records from music publisher Aaron Schroeder (who was Gene Pitney's producer/manager)in the late 1960s when Aaron moved his publishing operations to Los Angeles. Talmadge operated Musicor until the mid 1970s when he, along with Sceptor/Wand's proxy Florence Greenberg, closed up their labels (their offices were across the street from one another on West 54th Street). I do believe Talmadge is still alive and living in Long Island, NY

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.42 - 195.219.7.42) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:46 pm:

AH,Ive heard The Out-Of-Sights-For the rest of my Life on Saru-1611 and also there Tears Dont Care Who I Am-Saru-1614.Can you tell me what the Elements track was called on Saru-67.Cheers,MEL.

By AH (67.25.176.22 - 67.25.176.22) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:52 pm:

The Elements did "Hey Lady" b/w "Got To Make It Right" (written by the O'Jays); a super nice one call "Son-in-Law" b/w "Just To Be With You," also done by Bobby Dukes and the O'Jays; and "Prove It" b/w "Fever," which I never heard. One of the Imperial Wonders (who have a new CD out) co-wrote "Son-in-Law" (Lester "Jelly" McKenzie); he's deceased. The Elements changed their name frequently and had a hit in England as Moving Violation for I believe Atco Records.

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.2 - 195.219.7.2) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

Thanks AH,regards The Platters,a lot of articles say that Buck Ram was credited as finding and forming The Platters.But I have a Book with a chapter on Ralph Bass,who says that its all bulls...,also that he found Tony Williams in an amateur showat the club Alabam.This is how he puts it,there was a jive assed group called The Platters and i put Tony with them.The lead singer was busted and arrested on some charge,and what happened was Buck Ram was interested in managing them.He went to see Ralph Bass(who was working for Syd Nathan)at his office on Pico Boulevard in LA and asked for some of the records made by The Platters.Ralph Bass says he had done 2 sessions with them,sold a little on the west coast,but couldnt kick them off anywhere else.He told Buck Ram,coach them,give them material.Tony Williams is sensational.I dont have the time to spend with them.Buck Ram took it from there.Ralph also says he did the original Only You,what happened was that he used the group as backing for some of his other singers.Ram wanted 100 dollars each time he used the group,so Syd Nathan said that he could get any group to ooh and aah for 50 bucks,so he gave them a release which made Bass mad,but when he got mad he wouldnt call him.Also stating thats how he lost out on Clyde McPhatter and The Dominoes.(But thats another story)MEL.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

Hi Mel

Please quote the book and writer for copyright purposes. It's important that excerpts are properly credited.

Thanks
David

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.23 - 195.219.7.23) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:31 pm:

Sorry David,the reason I didnt quote it in the first place was the opposite reason to yours,anyway the book is the excellent Honkers and Shouters,The Golden Years Of Rhythm and Blues,by Arnold Shaw.One very informative book indeed.MEL.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:33 pm:

Thanks Mel.