By Common (209.2.55.114 - 209.2.55.114) on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 10:25 am:

Hello everyone!

I recently purchased an album called "Dynamite" by the Jean Terrell-led Supremes & The Four Tops. I know that the Supremes had teamed with the Tops on two previous LPs, but I never heard of this one. Some of the cuts on this LP are pretty nice & it's the first time I've ever had a chance to hear Levi scat! Has anyone else ever heard of the LP?

Peace!

By Common (209.2.55.115 - 209.2.55.115) on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 12:14 pm:

This LP doesn't seem to be a popular one. I'm wondering how well it did on the charts when it was released?

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 09:56 am:

Common,

It was the least succesful of the Supremes / Four
Tops albums - the fact that Motown didn't even extract a single from it probably goes some way
to explaining its relative failure - that and
the cheap-looking cover.

Here's the Billboard LP chart stats

"The Magnificent Seven" (9/70)
charted 10.17.70 16 wks highest position # 113

"Return of The Magnificent Seven" (5/71)
charted 06.26.71 6 wks # 154

"Dynamite !" (12/71)
charted 01.08.72 6 wks # 160

Must admit I've never heard it but looking at the track listing it looks as if there's some good
material there. I tended to ignore the album as
the single from the previous album ("You've Got
To Have Love In Your Heart") was such a
disappointment to me.

By Common (209.2.55.112 - 209.2.55.112) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 12:12 pm:

Davie,

LOL @"cheap looking cover". The cover did leave alot to be desired but some of the songs were pretty good, especially the remakes. "If" & "If I Lose This Dream" are excellent. The music is tight & Levi & Jean do it in their own style. Jean doesn't even try to do any Aretha vocal acrobatics & puts her own touch to the song. There also two remakes of Marvin & Tammi songs, "Good Lovin (Ain't Easy To Come By)" & "If I Could Build My Whole World Around You". I didn't care for "If I Could Build..." but I liked "Good Lovin..." For a minute, Jean reminded me of Tammi! I'm sure the other two LPs were probably better but this one wasn't too shabby either. I guess from the chart positions you posted, it looks like all the LPs weren't a hot commodity then. I'm wondering if the material on "Dynamite" was left over from the previous LP? Seeing as how closely the LPs were released, could that be a possiblity?

Peace!

By Davie G (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 01:21 pm:

Common,

I think it was cobbled together from out-takes
from the other albums then issued in time for
a few Christmas sales - as far the other two
being better to be honest I was never nuts
about either of them. Probably if I listened
to them now I'd enjoy them a lot more but
at the time I thought they were pretty weak.

I was always a bit annoyed that the Supremes /
Four Tops version of "River Deep, Mountain High"
sold so much better in the US than the Ike & Tina
Turner original.

I wonder if Motown knew at the time that they
were only going to get one more album out of the
Tops before they left to sign with ABC/Dunhill.

By AH (64.159.100.148 - 64.159.100.148) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 01:49 pm:

The Supremes and the Four Tops do excellent versions of "Do You Love Me Just a Little Honey," originally by Gladys Knight & the Pips, and "Hello Stranger."

Never cared for "River Deep, Mountain High" by anybody.

Each of those albums have some worthwhile tracks, they were essentially duets of Jean Terrell and Levi Stubbs and they were pretty good together. The Four Tops later cut some riveting tracks with Aretha Franklin (i.e. "Make it With You") that went virtually unnoticed.

By rmhardin (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 02:01 pm:

My suspicion regarding the original River Deep..'s failure in the US is that Spector had made himself so unpopular that the industry simply killed the record.

Remember the full-page ad he took out in the music press...? "Benedict Arnold was right." That earned him lots of friends, I'm sure ;o)

PS - With all due respect to the talent involved, I never cared much for the Motown recut either!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

The thing i never understood is why motown literally saturated the market with products at this time, in 1970 they had firstly diana ross(solo),secondly the new supremes, thirdly the existing four tops, and finaly not content with 3 different products decide to add a fourth being the 'supremes and four tops' i think the marketing department at motown had finally lost the plot at this time,when what they should have done was managed the release of these recordings in a more sensible fashion like maybe postpone the release of the supremes and four tops records.
I'm not critising the music in any way but i find the logic hard to understand by current day standards.

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 04:28 pm:

I agree with Ritchie about the cut not really standing out. I think Motown was just trying to capitalize on the popularity of a known quantity (Tops), in order to garner more acceptance of the unknown ("New" Supremes). Also, they probably had in mind the success that they achieved when they paired the Tempts and Supremes. I know the Tempts/Supremes match-up was also a Television special, but I don't remember the Magnificent 7 as a TV special.

By Common (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 12:14 pm:

AH,

I like the "Hello Stranger" remake as well. But I guess I'm partial to Gladys' version of "Do you love...." because I heard it so often.

Soulboy,

I would say that maybe Motown didn't have that same quality control system that was prevelant in the sixties, in terms of deciding which records would be released or not. By this time, I don't think Motown was paying too much attention to their record division. They were aiming at making movies & tv shows, which probably explains why some records, that weren't as good, got out. Plus you have remember the Ross factor. :o)

Peace!

By P.J. (12.227.35.89 - 12.227.35.89) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 03:34 pm:

I think that we need to also look at what was happening musicwise in order to understand the whole Supremes /Four Tops pairing. Both groups had lost their chief writers (HDH)in 1968 and were struggling and experiencing dissatisfaction as individuals or as an ensemble. Next Diana Ross left the Supremes in 1970. Concurrently, the music scene was changing drastically in the late 60's/early 70's. Eventually Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and for a while the Temptations would fit into this shifting music scene.
It is very likely that it was mused by certain Motown officials that some acts could not adapt to the new genres/styles of music. Their image had been too painstakingly established.'What do we do with established artists who had built up a fan base that Motown perceived as expecting a certain style or genre of music (even though the Supremes with Diana Ross had covered a great variety of them)? 'Continue business as usual with only slight changes' seems to have been the answer with many of the acts that Motown was able to retain. This sort of thinking bewildered Mary Wilson, for example , who wanted to move more in the direction of the musical current. Thus this
thinking would bring about a new pairing based upon a prior union- instead of Diana Ross (&the Supremes) with/and the Temptations, the pairing became the "new Supremes & the Four Tops". As with the previous pairing, there would be reworkings of songs from the rich Motown catalogue and a few new compositions from house songwriters, juxtaposed alongside a few selections
from songwriters outside the Motown (already dissolving) family.
Although I do not find the 3 albums that the Magnificent Seven recorded together as lackluster as some on this forum do, I must admit that sales figures show the the general record-buying public was not overly supportive of what Motown was offering with this pairing. Listening to the selections contained on the albums, I am glad that Mary, Cindy, Duke, Obie, & Lawrence were given opportunities to be heard vocally even on short solo lines.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

Interesing perspective on the music,in the year 1970 the supremes as a unit still had plenty of life left as far as the pop charts were concerned,indeed some of the material around this time i feel is the strongest and most under-rated
(with jean terrell). It is nevertheless curious (with the benefit of hindsight)to me that between 1970-late 1972 the supremes issued about 8 albums in total,a phenomenal amount by today's standard's. By contrast Between 1972 & 1975 they did not issue any new material (compilations excepted).

By Brian Chin NYC (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 08:36 pm:

I must post at least one vote saying I think "River Deep Mountain High" was a great single, beautifully and cleanly delivered by Jean and Levi, with a very well balanced track directed by Frank Wilson and Nick Ashford -- I wonder how many times they worked together?

I'm surprised to see so many unmoved by it. I thought it was a great idea, very appropriate to the singers and the moment. I must also admit, although I did hear the Ike and Tina version once in a blue moon on the local Drake station of the late 60s, WOR-FM, I have to say I found the remake much more "up" in spirit and orchestration. Guess that show you I was a child of the Seventies, not the Sixties.

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:38 pm:

P.J., that was a nice perspective on what was going on in the early seventies...things were changing, and funk and disco were around the corner. Brian, I think that probably half of the fans agree with you...I just don't remember that song being played much on the radio at the time, and I wasn't even aware that this pairing gave others in the group a chance to be heard. Mary Wilson has always had a beautiful voice. I'm impressed with the Supremes box set which contains a few Florence and Mary led songs...I didn't know Obie and Duke could really sing...I always thought of them in the same light as Pete, Ronnie, and the other Miracle...you could always hear Claudette's beautiful voice, but did the other Miracles ever solo?

By AH (67.25.176.223 - 67.25.176.223) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:58 pm:

Ronnie White was the Miracles second lead voice after Claudette left. Blame Berry Gordy for Ron and the other Miracles not singing lead; he wanted everything centered on Smokey Robinson. When Smokey left Ron led some tunes recorded by the new Miracles with Billy Griffin. Bobby Rogers sang lead "You're so Fine and Sweet." And that's him doing the falsetto opening on the Contours' "First I Look at the Purse." I've never known Warren Moore to solo but I'm sure he had very good baritone-bass.

The Miracles had a great vocal blend. I think it's a crime that Smokey Robinson is in the Hall of Fame and the Miracles are not. Yet, nobody seems upset about this.

I'm old enough to have seen the Miracles when they performed on stage as a group. They were very exciting. Towards the mid sixties Berry Gordy had the Miracles situated far in the background with Smokey way up front, often on live albums the groups' introduction was edited out. Ronnie, Bobby and Pete were reduced to ooh and ahhing with little movement.

Billy Eckstine once said in an interview that the Four Tops should use Abdul "Duke" Fakir more because he had a beautiful voice. Once again, Motown really only wanted Levi Stubbs to sing lead on the Four Tops' songs. The late Lawrence Payton, who had a soulful voice, sang lead on occasion and to a lesser extent Obie Benson. Duke was considered too MOR and didn't get the opportunity.

By r (165.235.75.119 - 165.235.75.119) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:42 pm:

AH, thanks for that. When I get home, I'm going to put in "First I Look At The Purse", because I do remember that soaring falsetto. I am just as upset as you that the entire group isn't in the HOF. I have seen some of the old clips of performances, and the group really contributed with their energy and dance moves (especially when performing "Mickey's Monkey", and "Goin' To A Go-Go"). You can't argue with Motown's method, only because you can't argue with success. Levi had a great voice, and the Tops made hit after hit with that formula. Paul Williams and Florence Ballard should have been given more opportunities to lead with the "A" material that was being served up in their respective groups' haydays. Look at what happened when the Marvelettes got Wanda more involved. That didn't take anything away from Gladys Horton, it just made the group stronger, in my opinion. But if Smokey is in the HOF as a performer, then the Miracles should be in there also. (Smokey would be in as a songwriter regardless).

By AH (67.25.176.254 - 67.25.176.254) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:21 pm:

True R, Smokey would be in there as a songwriter.

But how can the HOF justify not putting the Miracles in? Not Smokey Robinson & the Miracles--the Miracles. If the Miracles weren't one of the '60s dominate male vocal groups than bite me!Not a lot of number one pop hits but plenty of number one R&B songs, not to mention a long list of Pop Top 40 placements.

Bobby Rogers just does the opening recital "what does every man look at first" on "First I Look at the Purse," I don't know if he's actually singing harmony with the group. Ear ain't that good.

No you can't argue with success. In most cases Motown picked a combination of a groups' strongest and charmiest (is that a word) singer to do the leads.

It's interesting who producers pick to sing lead cause they all have personal biases. At another company with another producer and the same lineup, Smokey Robinson wouldn't have done as many, if any, leads. Berry love his voice (and I do too) plus he wanted to be out front. Some producers if given a choice would have picked Ron, Claudette or Bobby to sell certain songs over Smokey.

Many people for reasons I've never been able to understand don't like Smokey's light tenor. People either love or dislike his voice. But even those who don't care for it liked "You Really Got a Hold on Me" and some of the Miracles bluesier numbers cause Smokey sang them in his lowest register. They even liked him more when he was imitating Nolan Strong at the beginning of their recording days. What some didn't like was the voice in between the low first tenor and the skyscraper falsetto, which some called as lazy singing.

If you think about it, Smokey was the only Motown artist that wasn't required to sing above his/her natural range. Everybody else was, which is why many sounded different live.

When the O'Jays were a quintet and recorded for Imperial and Minit Records H. B. Barnum used Eddie Levert, William Powell and Walter Williams as the lead on certain songs. Not equally, but Powell and Williams had their fair share. Powell had a masculine falsetto that women loved. That's him on "Oh How You Hurt Me," "Let It All Out (a great Van McCoy song) and "Working on Your Case." But when the O'Jays recorded for Bell, Neptune and Philadelphia International Records none of the producers at those labels gave Powell a lead.

By the way, Smokey and Ron White did a duet on Tamla. The A-side was "It," I can't recall the flip offhand.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Andrew, the B-side of "It" was "Don't Say Goodbye" which I've never heard, so I can't comment. The topside was a very odd song, a kind of precursor to ET perhaps?

Anyway, here they are - Ron & Bill

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.114 - 195.219.7.114) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 05:07 pm:

I Think that Smokeys vocals come to the fore on,The Love I Saw In You Was Just a Mirage.And as with all of his songs,so magicaly adept when it comes to diversing from one range of octave or another,be it from a high note or down to a lower note.When I first heard this track,I put it down as an early 70s track.But was quite surprised to see it as around the 1967/68 mark.I agree with the above comment,that its scandalous to appreciate the lead singer and totally disregard The other members of a group.I Also think Marv Johnson could really use his voal range to a superb high level be it up or down.There are so many outstanding High Tenors etc,or whatever range they are,that all make a sound what it should be.Take a close listen to the Likes of Freddie Hughes or early recordings of The Younghearts material.The List is endless.MEL.(P.S.)There was two tracks titled It by Ron(White)&Bill(robinson)and both had the same flip sides,titled,Dont say Bye Bye.Oneon The Tamla Label(54025)and the other was on Argo(5350).

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 05:49 pm:

Andrew - great stuff

Ritchie - great pic

By AH (63.188.32.5 - 63.188.32.5) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

I referred to Smokey's highest register as falsetto it really wasn't, he sang high naturally. His replacement Bill Griffin was picked because he had a naturally high tenor as well, often referred to as a male soprano. The Miracles didn't want a falsetto singer to replace Smokey.

Harry Ray who sounded like Smokey sang falsetto; his natural voice, which he utilized on a song on a Ray, Goodman & Brown album was thin and not as charming. Though the tone is different you can always ID a falsetto singer when he 360s and sings in his natural voice cause certain charateristics stay the same. Eddie Kendricks on "This Use To Be the Home of Johnnie Mae" is singing mostly natural, but you knew it was Eddie from the first few notes.

The Miracles was also the most stylishly dressed group of the sixties and continued with the fine threads in the seventies.

By Larry (63.208.239.163 - 63.208.239.163) on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

Geezus I'm impressed by the knowledge in this 'string'. Kudo's to everybody and thanks for the education.

By chill (68.37.217.106 - 68.37.217.106) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 11:18 am:

Someone said Ronnie took over the second lead n the Miracles 'when Claudette left.' Claudette never left the studio, only the road. She's on every SR & M recording except the cover of "Abraham, Martin & John."

By AH (67.25.176.251 - 67.25.176.251) on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:21 pm:

True Chill, but at that point "second lead" in regards to the Miracles was an oxy moron. Smokey was doing all the leads in the studio and on the road as well--Period!

Otis Williams has a beautiful voice but seldom led a Temptations' song because of the makeup of the group. In a group of lesser singers, Otis might have been the star.

I use to play a game where I wrote the names of a lot of singers (from groups and solo artists) down and then picked five or four to form a group and then, like a NFL Depth Chart, chose who would sing the most, the second most, and third most leads among the bunch. (I use to have the time entertain myself as such.)

For example. In a group consisting of Smokey Robinson, Joe Harris, Chuck Barksdale, Hank Dixon, and Ted Mills, if you were the producer who would you pick to sell your songs?

If the producer favored baritones it might be Harris, falsettos, Ted Mills ... get the point. This is the problem producers had with groups that had more than one dominant voice.

Other things factored in as well, i.e. how fast a singer learned a song, remembered a song, appearance, willinglessness to do (some singers didn't want to sing lead), etc.

By Eli (152.163.189.167 - 152.163.189.167) on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:46 am:

Regarding River Deep, I agree with Brian Chin. I just love that version too.
Regarding falsettos, Wiliam "Poogie" Hart of the Delfonics had a very identifiable tenor and so did Russell Tomkins jr. of the Stylistics.
One of the most natural full voice tenors is Cuba Gooding of The Main Ingredient.

Eli

By Tyrone (12.20.58.68 - 12.20.58.68) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:54 pm:

Back to the original subject. I bought Dynamite, though the lp is disappointing, I liked it better than I liked the first album, The Magnificent 7. The only song on that album I liked is River Deep Mountain High. I thought Jean and Levi did a wonderful job and it made Top 20 on the charts. I didn't get into Tina's version until the late 80s. The Return of the Magnificent 7 is my favorite of the three. I haven't played Dynamite in quite some time. I did enjoy the song "If" written by David Gates (Bread), which is one of my favorite Supremes/Four Tops recordings.
To some of the other topics in this forum, I did enjoy Paul Williams, my favorite Tempt, as well as Florence, my favorite Supreme. I too wish they had more leads, especially Flo. As far as Paul is concerned, the recording of For Once In My Life, on the TCB album, could not have been outdone. I don't think he could have topped that on any other recordings. As far as Otis Williams and Ronnie White, where they were in the respective line-ups was appropriate. I really do not care for their vocals.
Bobby, you hit the nail on the head. William Hart is da MAN!!!!

By AH (63.188.32.229 - 63.188.32.229) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 03:04 am:

Tyrone, that's Ronnie White co-leading with Billy Griffin on "Don't Let It End Til You Let It Begin" on the Miracles first album without Smokey, the song and Ronnie's lead are beautiful. Admittedly he wasn't as effective on uptempo material. Otis Williams is singing lead on "Don't Send Me Away," "You Send Me" and a few others for the Tempts, he has an absolutely silky smooth tenor that screams romanticism.

Maybe I'm strange but I liked all the Temptations voices, some better than others, but I liked them all. Even the later Tempts and their revolving door membership.

I knew people who didn't like David Ruffin's cause they didn't equate rough tenors with good singing, but David could sing smooth too; kinda like David saying that Dennis Edwards singing wasn't real singing just a churchy, gospel ish thing--from Otis Williams' book.

Others don't care for falsetto singing, regardless of whose doing the false voice. I guess it's a personal thing, but there are very few singers that I can actually come out and say--I don't care for their vocals.

I even like Billy Gordon (Contours) and Jimmy Johnson (Vibrations) sandpaper tenors.

It's usually the producer who picks who he wants to sell his song and his/choice is totally subjective unless the group is established with leads whose voices have graced hit recordings.

By KevGo (12.84.108.160 - 12.84.108.160) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 04:24 am:

I know this sounds repetitive but I agree with Brian Chin & those who dig the Supremes/Four Tops "River Deep.." While the original stopped-started-changed tempo, Motown made it smooth and danceable (to an extent). Also has anyone spotted the then-update the Tops did w/the Supremes of "Without The One You Love" on the "Magnificent Seven" LP? While it may not compete with HDH's production, it is a nice attempt at bringing a 60s hit into the 70s. As for the original "River Deep..." there are many theories I've heard as to why the single didn't succeed here in the USA - the most common being Spector's declining popularity and the fact that he released so few singles (as opposed to the several other labels released)distributors were hesitant to sell his stuff because of the risk of getting stiffed (keep in mind that the more singles a label released per week, the greater the chances of getting a hit that would pay for the singles that flopped).
By the way, check out the Four Tops CD "Breaking Through" (their "debut" LP from 1963) that features some fine jazz stylings from "Duke" and Lawrence Payton (as well as Obie & Levi).
Peace,
KevGo

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:14 pm:

This is a great thread. Common, where did you find your copy of Dynamite, I can't find it anywhere. And "Hello Stranger" by the Sups and Tops is one of THE greatest covers I've ever heard. Jean sounds beautiful, and Levi sounds like Levi, always wonderful.

As for the Miracles, I think the analysis about his voice is definitely on point, but I think people often forget his versatility, especially people in my generation (22). They just know him as the guy who sings in a really high voice "Tracks of My Tears" "Ooh Baby Baby" "Cruisin'" and "Just To See Her" and maybe "Quiet Storm." But we know him as the cat who can be a raucous shouter on a song ("Come To Me," "Way Over There"), a 'regular' tenor (some parts of "I'll Try Something New"), and of course just that ethereal high tenor that he's best known for. I really think some of his best vocal work occurs on the "What Love Has Joined Together" album, which is my third favorite album by the Miracles' behind the CLASSIC "Go-Go" titles.

- BTW, I don't know of any leads by Pete, I think I asked Mr. Rogers if there were any more leads he or Pete did in the vaults and I'm pretty sure he said no.

-Also, I think Claudette definitely should have done some more leads. Her voice is lovely, especially on their version of "If This World Were Mine" where she's sharing the lead with Smokey.

And when talking about the HOF, are we talking about the Rock N' Roll HOF or the Vocal Group HOF? i could see the RRHOF making such a move, but I'd be disappointed if the VGHOF inducted SMOKEY and the Miracles rather than the Miracles.

By AH (63.188.32.14 - 63.188.32.14) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:03 pm:

The Miracles are not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which is considered the ultimate hall of fame these days. I have no idea if their in the the Vocal Group Hall of Fame or not; the VGHF gets little if any press by the main stream media. I know they're in the Rhythem Blues Hall of Fame but they should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:58 pm:

Unfortunately, the RRHOF doesn't really deserve this ultimate status. Any RRHOF that takes this long to induct the artists that CREATED rock n' roll (Five Keys, Nappy Brown, etc.) should not have such grand stature. But it is disappointing to hear that the Miracles group isn't in their. They are in the VGHOF, I think they were inducted last year. The VGHOF seems to be the one that truly rewards greatness appropriately.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.7 - 62.254.0.7) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:14 am:

Recently, I read with amazed disbelief that the Sex Pistols have been nominated for induction into the RRHOF. So, Sex Pistols - yes, but Miracles - no? Something's not quite right there, IMO.

By Common (209.2.55.115 - 209.2.55.115) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:00 am:

Hello Nish,

I found a copy of "Dynamite" at a music store in the city that sells CD's & used vinyl. The record was hardly played, so I was lucky. I only paid $4 dollars for it! And you're right about "Hello Stranger". Jean & Levi do a wonderful job on this song. "If" & "If I lose this dream" also has some great vocal performances.

Peace!

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:41 am:

It's important to remember that the changes in the industry included a major move away from dance singles to albums. This is probably a lot of why HDH weren't more successful after leaving the company, Motown wasn't breaking many new artists with hot dance singles at that point either. I've always held that HDH did Motown a favor because it forced us to reinvent the company a little before the market would have anyway.

As for Smokey Robinson in the Hall of Fame, he is more important than most songwriters and industry executives even if you totally ignore what he did with the Miracles. They really BOTH ought to be in there.

By AH (67.25.177.192 - 67.25.177.192) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:46 am:

Bob, Smokey is in the Rock Hall of Fame, as he should be. The problem is: the Miracles--Warren "Pete" Moore, Claudette Robinson, Ronnie White, Bobby Rogers, and Marv Tarplin--are not.

By NISH (128.239.202.115 - 128.239.202.115) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:10 am:

Yeah, the Miracles' are really one of the major acts that put Motown on the map. They were the first, the template, the vets, way before the Temps, Sups, Tops, etc. And that's quite an honor that deserves major recognition. While we're at it, let's get the Andantes in there. Matter of fact, let's get all of those major 1960s backing vocalists in there - Sweet Inspirations, Dee Dee Warwick, Darlene Love, they really make some of those pop-soul records the superior musical efforts that they are.

I know the RRHOF is really supposed to be for popular acts, but I wish there were a hall of fame for legendary artistry, chart success or no chart success. Then we could get people like the Originals, Velvies, JJ Barnes, Linda Jones, Deon Jackson, and all the rest of the "underground" greats in there.

NISH

By Prom (12.227.139.195 - 12.227.139.195) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:07 pm:

These 3 "Magnificent 7" albums were largely over-looked when they were released by Motown, but are treasures to find today. "The Best of..." was put out on CD in the early 90's. It contained tracks from all three albums. Of interesting note, "Love The One You're With" is led by Jean and backed up by "the others" and one might almost miss the Tops. Conversely, "The Bigger You Love" is led by the Tops only, with Supremes in the background. We will be getting an unreleased track on the up-coming Anthology titled "Function At The Junction"....wonder how many unreleased tracks by the "Mag 7" are out there?................

By john Lester (217.40.223.155 - 217.40.223.155) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 02:57 am:

Gordon Frewin who was the UK label manager reckons on this percentage as the norm

about one third of all completed tracks were issued.

He said that in the case of the VELVELETTES it was 20%.

So 14 times 5 means that there are some 70 tracks by my ladies

By john Lester (217.40.223.155 - 217.40.223.155) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 02:57 am:

Gordon Frewin who was the UK label manager reckons on this percentage as the norm

about one third of all completed tracks were issued.

He said that in the case of the VELVELETTES it was 20%.

So 14 times 5 means that there are some 70 tracks by my ladies

By promises kept (12.227.139.195 - 12.227.139.195) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:01 am:

Thank you Mr. Lester.......your knowledge knows no bounds! Now, do you recall any touring info as "the Magnificent Seven" in promotion of these albums?.................Prom

By Common (209.2.55.115 - 209.2.55.115) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:05 am:

Hello everyone,

That would be interesting to know if the Supremes & the Four Tops, acutally toured together. What I'm surprised is there was never a TV special that featured these two acts.

This question is slightly off topic but does anyone know which Four Tops LP the single "Got to Get You Into My Life" is featured on? I was disappointed that this track wasn't included on their CD box set, that was I hoping to purchase. Any help would be appreciated.:o)

Peace!

By P.J. (12.227.35.89 - 12.227.35.89) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:14 am:

"Got to Get You Into My Life" is from "Soul Spin" available with "Yesterday's Dreams" as a 2 on 1 released in Great Britain.

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:48 am:

I don't think Phil Spector's lack of popularity had anything to do with RDMH stiffing in the U.S. There were LOTS crazier producers at the time, even if they are less well-known than Spector outside the industry.

As for alternative lead singers, I'll never forget the time only one of the Tops (maybe it was Lawrence) showed up for a session. The producer and I sat there with our jaws on the floor as he stacked up a complete Four Tops track sounding EXACTLY like the other three. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Four Tops are in a different league and people who haven't been fortunate enough to work with them only have an inkling about how great they really are.

And finally, to the best of my knowledge, rock and roll was invented by Louis Jordan in the late '30s. He should be listed as a performer rather than just an influence and Smokey should have been listed as more than just a performer or the induction should have included the Miracles.

By Common (209.2.55.114 - 209.2.55.114) on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:15 pm:

Thank you P.J,

I'm wondering if that particular 2fer is available here in the US. I would love to get one of those just here this particular track by the Four Tops.

Peace!

By KevGo (12.84.107.147 - 12.84.107.147) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

Bob:
I wasn't saying that Phil Spector's declining popularity was the reason why RDMH stiffed in the USA. I said that was one of the many theories that have been shared over the years. After all, musical tastes did change once genres such as Soul music, the British Invasion and West Coast rock dominated the airwaves and competed for fans.

Thanks for sharing that anecdote regarding the great Lawrence Payton. I've read many articles regarding the Four Tops that pointed to one now-known fact, that Lawrence was the heart and soul of the Tops sound. He was the group's vocal arranger and had the Tops cut their teeth on vocal jazz, pop and standards, thus making them so much more versatile than many other vocal groups (with apologies to the Temptations). For a group to appear on the Tonight Show BEFORE they were signed to Motown on the strength of talent and savvy booking alone was an amazing feat in itself.
As for Smokey being inducted into the RRHOF without the Miracles, I remember when that occurred and feeling outraged at such a slight. All the more reason why I don't take the RRHOF so seriously. They seem to concentrate on who not to induct than who should be in. That's my two cents on the subject.
Regards,
KevGo

By AH (63.188.33.221 - 63.188.33.221) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:43 pm:

The RRHOF is a joke. The Dells are the only legendary soul act up for induction this year; and the chances of them getting in aren't real good. However, if the Dells had recorded for a label under WEA's umbrella, or another "in crowd" major they would have been in five years ago.

By thecount (64.53.165.90 - 64.53.165.90) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:13 pm:

SMOKEY and "THE MIRACLES" were inducted into the VGHOF last year.I can remember when they were first known as the "FIVE CHIMES",then "THE MATADORES".Can anyone relate to this? When we "THE 5ive Invictas" met with "MARV JOHNSON" at a record store where MARV worked,"The prince and Adams Record Shop,Marv then told us of them guys and MARV pulled some serious strings to get us on "UNITED ARTISTS".He was such a kind and pleasent soft spoken wonderful man.We were only there for about half hour and in comes "MARY WELLS".That is when we met "BEAUTIFUL MARY WELLS"(man was I in love with her)The record store was on 12th. st. and MARV said its really rough in this parts of town.Let me walk with you gentelman to your ride so I know you boys is safe.So many wonderful talented people in the "MOTOWN" world.DAMM,if only we could of been part of the Lable and the KOOL people.But being able to perform with so many of them at the different "ROCK AND ROLL SHOWS" and "RECORD HOPS",it was almost like being a part of your world."THE DETROIT SOUND".That sums it all up.
IF anything comes up on the forum about the "MUSIC CITY" lable,I will post a heart breaking exp. I discovered last nite.
"COUNT"

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.100 - 195.219.7.100) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:24 pm:

Hey Count,now theres a name that dosent get enough mentions as it should,Marv Johnson.Considering his recordings and general involvement in the world of music.I Have still got his Baby,I Miss You and his Dont Leave Me.MEL.

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:27 pm:

Hi Steve

Thanks for that story.

Prince Adams is mentioned in Berry Gordy's book and was based at 8835 12th street...only 2 blocks from where the riots began in 1967.

Do you recall anything about the shop? who the owner was etc?

thanks
David

By thecount (64.53.165.90 - 64.53.165.90) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

HI DAVID,for some things that come to mind about the owner of the shop is a name SONNY WOODS,but I realy dont think he was the owner.So I guess I realy didnt know the owner because if I'am thinking right here,I remember SONNY WOODS might of been the same man as in the "DOWNBEATS" and was also a producer for Henry and the MIDNIGHTERS and also performed with them when he became
"HANK BALLARD and THE MIDNIGHTERS.You mentioned a BERRY GORDY book.Which book did BERRY write?
Thats one thing I wish I keept,was books and music MAGS.
Have lots of pics.Mostly DET,Grps. and hundreds of DOO-WOP groups.As far as I can remember about the store,it had a very musty smell and music being played through the system I thought was a very fine sound.It was almost a stereo sound,but was a hi-fi system.Lots of propaganda on the counter but some very kool pictures on the side wall.Did MARV ever tell anyone he was not a singer but an entertainer?
"COUNT" PS,wish I could be of more help DAVID.
I got a letter from uncle SAM in 1965 and returned in OCT>1967 and thats when I found out of the store being hit in the riots.(sad day man)

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:18 pm:

Hi Count

Berry wrote "To Be loved".

Thanks anyway.
David

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.90 - 195.219.7.90) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:20 pm:

Mr.Ohlsson,great to hear you mention Louis Jordan.I Have a few of his l.p.s and as well as the amusing content in a lot of his material,he always had that tremendous big band behind him blasting away.Also one of the early rappers,his track called,Brother Beware is a superb piece of timing regards his amusing one liners being equally returned by the Female/Male back-up singers.MEL.

By thecount (64.53.143.173 - 64.53.143.173) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 06:09 pm:

HEY MEL,now I know we are KOOL,because you feel the same as I do about a Motown hero.I have quite a few "MARV JOHNSON" records.What ever you have ,they are sure treasures.Good to hear from you again "MEL"THE PAL.(and then some)If you would like to hear the story of what brought us to see MARV,let me know.I would hate to waste space here if nobody is interested.(I know I get pretty boring at times and dont want to bore anyone)MY ol lady is calling me,do you want to do dinner now.All I want is, DO THIS DO THAT AND DOO-WOP.Gotta go. "COUNT"

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 06:56 pm:

I know I speak for everyone when I say I'd LOVE to hear about Marv.

Here's a pic to get you started, Count.

By Sue (64.244.93.44 - 64.244.93.44) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 07:13 pm:

I don't have a Marv picture, but I'll tell my Marv story. I was covering the dedication of the state historical marker outside of Hitsville -- it was late '80s I think, the governor was there, the mayor, and Smokey Robinson representing the company ...and there was a sleety November rain going on. I drove there in a staff car, but had to abandon it on a residential street because the cops had the street cordoned off -- I guess the governor's presence warranted that, I don't know.

Anyway a press card did NOT get me through the police line as it's supposed to, they just laughed at it, so I went running around the side and snuck close to the porch of the house, where some official person vetting a list couldn't find my name. I was soaking wet and steaming, as they searched, when a tall man wearing a denim pantsuit, standing on the porch, started talking to me. He asked if I was going to come to the party afterward; I huffed that I didn't think so. He tsked, said I was simply wet and aggravated, and that as soon as I got inside and dried off (he helped me over the railing) I'd feel better about Motown. He was exceedingly kind, told me where the after-party was (at the St. Regis), and when I said "thanks Marv," said "How do you know who I am?"

Totally thought he was the forgotten man or something. I said "Hey, do you think I don't know 'Come to Me'? Everybody knows Marv Johnson."

He beamed. We chatted further, and he told me he had stories about Motown ...stories that would curl my hair. I took his phone number down and said I'd love to hear his stories.

Long story short, I never got to ...Marv passed on. He was living in a room at the time I met him, I've since heard, and was not doing very well financially. He was the sweetest guy, and it's my everlasting regret that I didn't get to tell his story in time.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.120 - 195.219.7.120) on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 06:03 am:

Hey Count,Iwould love to hear your story about Marv Johnson.A few more tracks of Marvs Ive had on the stereo.You got the love I love,youve got what it takes,youve got to move two mountains,he gave me you,come to me,happy days,easier said than done,all the love I got.What a voice.So come on down Count and bring it on,looking forward to your next item.MEL(your Buddy,andthensome).P.S.SUE.as with a lot of great stars its always a shame to hear that they end up with no money etc.what great memories you have though,To a truly great artist no longer with us R.I.P. Mr.Marv Johnson.

By SisDetroit (67.25.209.142 - 67.25.209.142) on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 09:43 am:

Sue - Gino Washington has a taped interview with Marv Johnson from his tv show. Maybe there is something of interest there.

By Millie (68.40.198.72 - 68.40.198.72) on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 05:25 pm:

Back in the early 70's, while I was working at Motown, Marv Johnson was a regular fixture in the building. Everytime I would see him, he would say.."hey darlin', how're you doin'?" At that time he was living at the Leland House Hotel, not far from the Blue building on Woodward. Every Friday after work, he'd invite a few people over, and although I once went once or twice, I got to know Marv pretty well. He wasn't really treated very well by Motown...towards the end, around 1972, he was sweeping floors and just trying to hang on. Very sad, indeed. A good and honest man.

By Millie (68.40.198.72 - 68.40.198.72) on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 07:24 pm:

Should we start a thread for Marv Johnson??

By promises kept (12.227.139.195 - 12.227.139.195) on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 01:06 am:

Yes, as Marv rarely performed as one of the Supremes with the 4 Tops............what a mess!