By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 11:29 am:

LISTENING RECENTLY TO SOME OF THE EARLIER MOTOWN SONGS AND THE INSTRUMENTAL TRACKS BEHIND THEM...IT IS OBVIOUS THAT AT SOME POINT...THE SOUND BEHIND THE ARTISTS CHANGED!!!...LISTEN TO MARY WELLS..."TWO LOVERS"!!!...THE CRISPNESS OF THE HORNS AND THE CLEAN AND DISTINCT RHYTHM TRACKS JUST WEREN'T THERE!!!...IT WAS A "MUDDIER" SOUND THEN THE PRECISE AND CLEAN TRACKS THAT WERE STILL TO COME!!!...QUESTION (IF YOU ACCEPT THIS ANALYSIS)!!!...WHAT "CLEANED UP" THE MOTOWN SOUND...AND WHEN DID IT HAPPEN???...WAS IT BERRY'S BRINGING IN ALL THOSE JAZZ MUSICIANS (LATER TO BECOME KNOWN AS THE "FUNK BROTHERS")???...WAS IT THE HIRING OF MORE PROFICIENT ARRANGERS???...WAS IT ADVANCES IN THE RECORDING AND ENGINEERING PERSONNEL AND EQUIPTMENT???...AT WHAT POINT DID THESE CHANGES OCCUR...AND CAN ANYONE POINT TO THE SONG...PROJECT...OR ARTISTS THAT MOVED THE MOTOWN SOUND INTO THE NEW...SLICKLY PRODUCED ERA???...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 11:32 am:

Stu,
I would say ...All of the above.

By Eli (141.151.82.175) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 11:38 am:

I think that in a nutshell it was the team of HDH and their production and writing technique that changed the face of Motown and laid the groundwork for THE Motown sound the personified the Sound of Young America.

Just my opinion.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 11:45 am:

I DON'T KNOW...BUT DID BERRY MAKE A SPECIAL EFFORT TO UPGRADE THE SOUND FOR HIS "SPECIAL" SIGNATURE GROUP..."THE SUPREMES"???...IT SEEMS TO ME THAT BERRY WAS DETERMINED TO MAKE THOSE LADIES A SUCCESS...AND PERHAPS PULLED OUT ALL THE STOPS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN...INCLUDING THE ENHANCEMENT OF THE SOPHISTICATION OF THE SOUND BEHIND THEIR RECORDINGS...THEN...THE REST OF THE MOTOWN STABLE GOT PULLED ALONG FOR THE RIDE!!!...IS THE HISTORICAL TIMING THERE ON THIS ONE???...STUBASS

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.133) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:35 pm:

There were four periods of Motown technology.

At first, mono backing tracks were recorded, edited and then taken to United Sound to be mixed with live vocals. I believe "Please Mr. Postman" was the first three track hit that was produced entirely in-house. "Where'd Our Love Go" was just about the first eight-track production. The 16 tracks went in around 1969 along with a move to using almost all the same Neumann mikes for everything.

By Eli (141.151.82.175) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:41 pm:

Bob,
I heard that they used KM 86's on almost everything at that time.
Is that correct??

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Stu,
Interesting comment about the Supremes. It seems to me tat Motown productions started becoming more sohisticated once the Supremes burst on the scene in '64 and helped put the company into mainstream America.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.133) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:54 pm:

Berry Gordy was the driving force behind Motown always having the latest recording technology while Mike McLean was responsible for innovating beyond the state of the art and years ahead of the rest of the industry. I can remember being utterly shocked by how backward EMI's Abbey Road studio in London was when I visited in 1969.

As a manager, BG wanted to move his artists beyond being just teen idols which was why he worked so hard on the top acts while delegating responsibility to others for newer artists.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.133) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

We had nothing but KM-86s at Golden World and a couple KM-85s and 17? KM-86s at Hitsville.

We had to learn a lot about using KM-86s in a hurry!

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 03:16 pm:

THE WAY I SEEE IT RALPH...THE SUPREMES GOT THE BEST TRAINING...OUTFITS...MATERIAL...GIGS...AND PRODUCTION!!!...PERHAPS BERRY SAW THEM AS HAVING THE GREATEST POTENTIAL IN WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH...DIANA AND ALL!!!...IF THAT WAS HIS GAMEPLAN...IT WORKED LIKE A CHARM!!!...STU

By HW (68.36.80.68) on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

Motown moved to eight-track in January 1965. Several of the first attempts were simple: three-track recordings copied over to eight-track and a few overdubs added. Soon, the full eight-tracks were being used - and, coinciding with the burst of creativity, that's when things really took off.

By soulboy (81.103.86.21) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 03:58 am:

I agree with Eli that HDH were fundamental in capturing that classic sound. i think they set a standard in production that all the others followed, their records had a lot more rythymic charge than the other producers,but perhaps most important change was the introduction of that huge backbeat.
For example,if you listen to motown records with headphones,and there are other people in the room.most people will not hear the music distinctly. but what they will hear is that monster backbeat!It really CUTS through!There was something built into the recording process that made this. I am not sure whether it was the addtion of extra tracks or the amplification that did this, i guess the engineering/tech guys on the forum would know this.