By Isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

As in why is it that posters to this site fear to tread there..? I first saw and posted to this site back in February, I believe, after having seen Standing In The Shadows of Motown, and subsequently, I posted on Black Music as a term I use to describe it as a cultural continuum... I believe I took some exception to terms like "soul" and "funk" as hard, fast descriptions of music which comes out of the Black Experience, which is a multi-faceted, multi-cultural, multi-national, and many splendored thing... SOME folk at the site took mild exception to my post, said the "music wasn't about color", and other such nonsense, but that's cool, and to be expected at a discussion forum... Also, perhaps, I might have come on a bit opinionated, a bit unapologetic, and yes, angry, in that posting, so I will attempt to dispense with the anger, if not my opinions and decidedly unapologetic position on this topic...

Firstly, I think folk who post to the site(not all or most, mind you)need to read about African/African-American culture(hemispherically!)or live it to understand it and it's origins as a basis for the music which came and comes out of it... Otherwise, you are having superficial, feel-good discussions about a subject whose substance has clearly led you here... Nothing against "feel-good" discussions as long as they are framed in that way, but I get the impression from some veteran posters here, that y'all are so deep, and so erudite and learned, yet you fail to pass along the depth of your knowledge to those of us who could benefit from your sharing...

That's why I got angry in that first posting on this subject, because I had an intuitive sense that this culture I grew up in is still not taken seriously, still not treated with the same level of respect as others(European), even though it has for at least a century made the music that rocks the planet, and influences it socially - truth be told... Clearly, there is not enough time or space to fully address this issue, but would that there be more fully-developed discussions, more book list recommendations, more research done on this topic so that folk are clearer about terms like "Northern Soul" and "funk" and "soul" and R&B and "Jazz"...(smile!) As in, one mo' time, "soul" music has no geographical place in space and time for me, because I have heard Bob Marley, Salif Keita, Celia Cruz, Lord Kitchener, Toto La Momposina, Miriam Makeba, and many others, Black, White, and Latino, make music that touched my soul - and it was funkier than a mug, too! So that's why the terms aint got much currency with me...

"Northern Soul" sounds real catchy, but I tell ya that it does not exist until those Black Southerners from Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and the Carolinas brought it here with 'em, and this is a fact, simply because it was no where to be found prior to their migrations... Yet it is discussed as if "soul" music was wafting in the atmosphere of the Midwest and Northeast before there was ever a southern soul to be found in the populace... Here, this was touched on a trifle in a post by Fayette, where he asks where folk are from, and some of the posters go on to mention the birthplaces of some of the stars... But, again, where folk are born does not fully explain how one born in Detroit, like Aretha Franklin, or Philadelphia, like Patti Labelle, manifest the "soul", the performance style, the diction and vernacular of Mahalia Jackson of New Orleans and Clara Ward of South Carolina..? Some would have us believe it is a North-South thing instead of the passing on of our culture from one generation to the next, irrespective of wherever we hang our hats... I mean, how do you explain James Brown, Michael Jackson, and Hammer's dancing in a purely geographical context..? How do you rationalize that, and suspend your consciousness to believe that nonsense..? Oops, I'm getting angry again... I feel somebody telling me the music aint gots nothing to do with color, and they're right(smile!)... Culture, Culture, Culture, and those who aint in that club get scared shitless when asked to discuss a subject that can't pass muster on...(smile!) But that's my point... There needs to be more discussion of the cultural continuum at this site, and the part it played, and continues to play, in the music folk claim they love so well...

I know I've been a bit long-winded here - and I know I've gotten on a few folks nerves in the process - though that is not my intention... But when I hear discussions of the great sound that came out of Detroit or Chicago or Philadelphia, and there is no mention made of the cultural transmissions of the Black Alabamian, Mississippian, Carolinian, Louisianan, or Georgian, I know that there is some cultural robbery going on, and it should be addressed... We should all know that Eddie, Paul, and Melvin may never have gotten to tell us that Rev. Claude Jeter and his Swan Silvertones(from BirmingHam, Alabama) gave them their inspiration, and the basis for their sound, but one need only listen to be convinced... I'd say that the great Ira Tucker of the Dixie Hummingbirds(Orangeburg, South Carolina), or perhaps, the supernatural shouting of the master Archie Brownlee and the 5 Blind Boys of Mississippi strongly influenced David Ruffin, Wicked Wilson Pickett, and Teddy Pendergrass, too... But it seems that too many of us are only interested in promulgating this "northern soul" thing without checking to see where or on what it is grounded in... The "sound" is treated as if it is some mystery, even though it is being created simultaneous with the Great Black Migration...(go figure!) I am not saying that a unique sound was not created in the northern cities to which 7-million African Americans migrated from the 1900's to the 1970's, but I am saying that while one can leave a given geographical location, it does not mean they suddenly up and completely drop the culture so near and dear and life-sustaining to them... Hmmmm... I hope that doesn't come as a shock to to those of you who are so convinced this "Northern Soul" thing is a northern original, but then I say it is your failure to study cultural history, and to unapologetically share it with others that keeps the mythology alive...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:21 pm:

Isaiah,
I think you are overstepping a bit to suggest that discussions that take place outside of the context of a how the music fits into "The Black Experience" are by nature "superficial".

Other than the whiff of arrogance in that dismissive word choice, I don't see how any rational person would object to studying something from the inside-out, the outside-in, or any way around, so feel free to respectfully share your perspective, which will be one of many.

Regards,
Ken

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

p.s. Isaiah -- this may make you even angrier actually, but the term "Northern soul" used on this forum refers to the fan scene in the North of England, not with Northern U.S. cities.

Don't blame me, I'm posting this from the 48226 zip code ...

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:47 pm:

Isaiah,
I think you need to do your home work a little more pal before you try and tackle the issues that you're writing about. It has never been a secret here that the music out of Detrot, Philly. Chicago or any other Norhern city was not generated from roots that went deeply into other geographical areas of the country. Primarily the South. And as Sue points out to you, you need to school yourself on the term " Northern Soul".

By SB (205.186.130.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:17 pm:

Isaiah - I think I get your drift. First of all - I don't think most here can ignore that many blacks migrated from the south. I don't think most here would deny that before the word "Gospel" was founded - there were the old Negro "Spirituals." Ironically - last night I watched a program on PBS called "The Jim Crow", years. If one would like to know where all black music came from in America - one would only have to look to the "Spirituals." Point blank!

In the topic "What Does Soul Mean To You", many touched on just that subject. These days - "Soul" can mean many things - and it does not have a color. But then again - no one can convince me that the way the black man and woman told their stories didn't have something to do w/it. The narrator last night mentioned the slave days. He also mentioned the code the slaves would use when singing. He mentioned that the overseers listened closely to the lyrics - and if they didn't find them fun and flighty - he would make them stop singing them.

Again - I understand the gist of what you are saying - but I don't agree that many on this board have not given the culture and the territories where the spirituals - blues and jazz sprung from their just due. Because without all of the aforementioned, "Soul" music, as it relates to the black musical experience here in AM., would not have been borne. But that is not to say that today - other races - colors and creeds don't know how to identify, feel, love or sing it.

Behaviour is a learned science. Everyone of us has to be taught from the day we are born. If one didn't know anything about a car - one wouldn't know where the key went, for example.

But - I feel you, and I understand that you want to delve in a little deeper about how the southern states should be viewed in all of this. I understand - because I am proud to be from B'ham, AL. We had some tough goings on - and we needed MLK, and he helped - but God was the truest Champion of the people. God and music = "Spirituals" & "Gospel". I know where my musical roots lie indeed. I used to listen to music that would make me what to weep - so I hear 'ya, but you shouldn't discount how many on this borad view and feel about it all.

S'all right?

By Scratcher (65.238.127.208) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:18 pm:

Aretha Franklin was born in Memphis, TN.

By Paint by Numbers (64.236.243.31) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:27 pm:

wow, some of the blackest folks I know are white..and they are here on this forum...soul is where's it's at - there is no color to soul..
the music touches you on the insdie..where there are no colors


Peace

By WTF? (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:39 pm:

Paintbynumbers, you just insulted some blacks here with you comments, not mentioned contradicting yourself!!! Explain how whites are 'blacker' than the blacks here??? You should think before you post!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:58 pm:

OK, OK let's not get into some sort of black / white thing here. Read the post again WTF.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

WTF? -
Relax, my friend...take a deep breath...and re-read the following:

"..soul is where's it's at - there is no color to soul..
the music touches you on the insdie..where there are no colors..."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 05:08 pm:

Yo' Ralph, I don't need to do "some" homework on the culture, papa, I need to do a whole lotta homework!(smile!) Yeah, it is just that deep, but then one would not know that just casually dropping in to read the posts here... And Sue, nah, I aint mad'atcha, I'm just wondering why you and Dr. Ralph didn't take the time to explain to a brother what this "Northern Soul" thang really is, dear(smile!) Oh, I was assured by the professor, Mr. PaintByTheNumbers that it wasn't a "color" thing again, which means, either, I didn't take enough time to point out in my post that CULTURE was what I was seeking to address, or some folk are trying to be "Blacker Than Thy..?"(smile!)

Listen, I think what upsets some folk when I bring this topic to the fore is that they are not members of that culture, though they are superficially familiar with the culture... Not being a member of the culture aint no crime(though it can be if you are, here in America), nor am I seeking to make it one... I am seeking to broaden the scope of the discussion so that folk understand that they are discussing artifacts of a culture as in a museum, rather than the folk that make the culture a living thing... If you wanna discuss this thing on a museum tip, where you admire the artifacts, and not what made the creation of those arifacts possible, that is cool too... I'll understand, and I'll step... Just don't front like you're an expert on this baby, 'cause you aint... And that applies to all of the musicians, engineers, singers, and star-gazers who post here, like they're Gods in a world created long before they were thought about... Now, that's how deep it is bruh Ralph...


SB, I appreciate your post very much - in fact, your digressions on the Temptations TV-Movie were somewhat inspirational... But if you think I am dissin' folk on the basis of their ethnic background and culture, let me rectify that misunderstanding by saying this from a deeply-felt cultural vantage point... Firstly, a guy like Bobby Caldwell, who grew up among African Americans down in Florida, and sang in those choirs is an example of what you talked about:CULTURE AS LEARNED BEHAVIOR... Yes, I say unequivocably, that one who grows up in a particular environment is likely to imbibe the culture of that environment... I am no rocket scientist, and yet I would never argue the point that our culture is not genetic, but is learned, and something we really don't have any choice about... But that is a straw issue, and I want folk to dispense with it right now... I never said that White folks can't sing - can't sh-ang, even! That is a part of some folks imaginations and insecurities, and they should not be expecting no apologies from me anytime soon...


I said that true discussions of the CULTURE that produced and brought the music - not to mention the dancing and the performance style - to the fore, are rarely, if ever, discussed at this site... Were there these wholistic discussions, one might want to discuss the idiomatic language, the dance movement, and performance style which are as much significant elements of the music as the music itself... Sure, the mere mention of African Americans at this site implies a discussion of culture, but real Compared To What..? Once again, it's about them artifacts, and not the experience... Oh, like let's discuss those Benin Bronzes, but not the complex culture of the Nigerians who made them(smile!)

Yo', I fully expect deep resistance on this issue, because for so long we have been attempting to get these things instituted in our school systems in The United States at the elementary and primary levels, and that is what we've gotten, mad resistance from these white folks who claim to love and respect our culture... But, like that crazy cat named Shuttlesworth from your beloved city, SB, I aint 'bout to be cowed from England, Detroit, or anywhere else... The issue is just too important to be shunted off to the side because it makes SOME folk feel uncomfortable... If Americans of all stripes, as well as these folk from Bloody Old England, feel comfortable calling the Cultural contributions of African Americans just plain old American culture, then it stands to reason that that culture should be taught in our school systems, as well as at this discussion forum...(smile!) No Frontin', no pretense, no bullshit...

Peace and blessings!
Isaiah

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 05:44 pm:

Isiah:

You and I have corresponded in the past. Problem with the learned behaviour thing is that we in many parts of Europe didn't grow up around African-Americans, or even African Europeans. We didn't learn any behaviour, we just dug the music and the vibes. And it wasn't just the broad appeal of Motown/Stax/Philly et al. My Grandfather was a stride piano player who worshipped at the shrine of Art Tatum and Fats Waller. We had no contact with him when we were kids but we turned ourselves onto Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Monk, Trane, Cecil Taylor, Roland Kirk and Albert Ayler. Music is music and people is people. One time - maybe still - most musicians of all ethnic backgrounds studied the European composers. Now a lot more people get some grounding in jazz.

We don't need to bang on about African influences on music, which is obvious and unquestionable. What we do need to do - in the broader world - is to dig out the truth about Africa and Africans' suppressed history in the world, which is what some of us are now engaged upon, and which will blow the subject of history wide open in the next few years.

By Vonnie (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 06:00 pm:

Brother Isaiah,

Peace and blessings to you and your bully pulpit(southern cultural term). Maybe I am culturally deprived because I have no idea what your post is about. I'm a black woman who was born in Philly, and I can't figure out what the term "Northern Soul" has to do with northern or southern american culture.

Vonnie

By Edgar (200.46.134.193) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 06:15 pm:

Isaiah, I find your post very interesting, and I think I understand you quite well, even if I am Panamanian and Spanish is my first language. I really cannot contribute much on what you are writing about, but read the different points of view. You will find all kind of persons on forums with different reactions. In the old Mary Wilson message board I was ostracized since the day I wanted to discuss traces of colonialism and neo-fascism in some members' messages. Not even astrology was tolerated. Most of the members preferred to discuss gowns and wigs.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

Let's not be too hasty on our opinion regarding ISAIAH. I understand what he is saying. I feel it deep down inside. It is too complex to discuss on Soulful Detroit.

I wanted to know what the term "Northern Soul" meant. I asked and was referred to the making of the term. The UK and it's neighbors have debated and have sometimes disagreed on the meaning or the beginnings of the term as it relates to music and what type of music should be included. (I guess.)

Peace!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 06:53 pm:

Dear Folks:

First of all - welcome back, Isaiah. I missed your posts and the discussions we had. Your passion for soul music and the roots of music runs deep and for that alone I respect your opinions even if and when we disagree.

As discussed before, Northern Soul is a term originated in the UK. It is used to describe the type of R&B the folks who live in the Northern part of England prefer - a lot of which derives from Detroit, Chicago, New York & Philadelpha. Most of it is uptempo and the rarest recordings are preferred over what were the hits.

Please note this is a boiled-down version of the definition and a more full-blown discussion can be traced in the archives.

As SisDetroit said, the topic Isaiah brings up may be a bit deep for the SD Forum. But, he does raise some points worth addressing whether we agree or disagree with the opinions.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Des (81.152.91.76) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 07:21 pm:

Isaiah/
It's tough to bring your level of analysis to every topic raised on this Forum.
I only recently started reading and contributing here (one month ago) and I haven't detected that many contributors wish to put every anecdote/experience or analysis in absolutely true and complete cultural context.
If your aim is to upgrade the volume of people properly and more seriously doing so - that's cool. I don't get the impression,like I say,that too many contributors feel that this Forum is an appropriate one for such depth of perspective.
I'm interested to establish what drove you back on here to mildly chastise and,by inference,criticise the intellectual quality of the posts you've picked up on - let me/us know.
You were cool enough to recognise your idiocy in mis-understanding the term "Northern Soul" - but,I'd say predictably,strode on through that pillar of your first post (from 'pillar to post" - inadvertant,I assure everyone) and continued to address the issues that really concern you -- but that are fundamentally not addressed on this Forum.
Now,what is it that you want to see happen here?
You've read a number of Threads & Posts....do you really think it appropriate to nail this Forum in the way that you have?
Some contributors occasionally have rose-coloured glasses for sure - but the point of this Forum is more to glory in Music that touches your emotions --- most often characterised as Soul Music.
I,personally,think that unless you can more simply clarify what the end-game is - from your point of view - you should let this Forum continue to perform its' musical goal....alongside facilitating fond/sentimental/joyous/often amusing and informative recollections from some who were there to describe some pretty damned historic recordings/performances......and from some who just want to share their joy/appreciation of their music for no other reason than...."sharing".

There's more to exlore - and I assure you that I am not trying to patronise you or what you have to say - I am,however,questioning if you're mildly beating up the right Web Forum.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 07:35 pm:

Des,
Well put. WOW! Very well put.

By westwinds (65.238.58.75) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 08:47 pm:

Norther Soul. I thought that was from England? Isn't it? I've never heard the term used here in the US.

By isaiah (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 09:20 pm:

Des, I was very succinct about what I wanted to discuss, and discussed it very well... For a further "hint" you may refer to the very title of the post... Now, if that happens to go over your head, perhaps you might like to apply terms like "idiocy" to that cat lookin' back at'cha in your mirror(smile!)... Sorry for the sarcasm... I guess it's the Brooklyn comin' outta me at this point... Perhaps it is as Sis Detroit and Kev-Go have said, that the forum is simply not structured for such discussions, and I take the wisdom of their words under advisement... But let me boil this thing down a bit by saying that the culture produced the music, it's idiom, it's dancing and it's performance style - not the other way around... The culture is larger than the music, which is but a small, though, major component... The culture - Not COLOR - enables folk to produce Jazz, Blues, HipHop, Reggae, and Salsa, as well as styles of dress, styles of dance, styles of performance, and language, and those elements are not addressed here, you all would agree..? Hence, my charge that the discussions are somewhat superficial... I am not bashing anyone or anything, just stating a fact...

Once again, I only bring this up because I believe this culture is beautiful, valuable, and important, because it has literally been the sustainer of the lives of African Americans through 4 centuries in a country that has not always been kind to us - and that's putting shit lightly... This is where all my passion about this comes from, because before studying the cultural history of my people through the works of Amiri Baraka, Laurence Levine, and Alan Lomax I had no idea it's magnitude... In fact, I think the vast majority of African Americans live and love the culture, but have little understanding of it's depth, how important it was to the Civil Rights Movement, for example... My desire is that All - not just African Americans - should grasp that... If it were so then the resistence I've received from certain persons at this board, the hysteria, would cease... It is about educating oneself about different cultures... I am willing to bet that if I say that Kung Fu is Chinese, I wont get the same intense reaction as I've gotten when I say that this music comes to us live and direct from African Americans(smile!)... Yo' y'all keep da peace... I'm out, but I'm gone be back...

peace and blessings!
Isaiah

By ONE LOVE (198.81.26.170) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 09:28 pm:

Isaiah,

your people are my people, and "our" people...
until everyone realizes we are one, we'll have this division...
don't separate "them" and "us"....that's the problem in our world....

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.2.9) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:24 pm:

~Maybe this isn't the right Forum 2 discuss Cultural differences, but I understand where Isaih is coming from. I think everyone here is no stranger his statements. I believe
he said it was a Culture thing, I think it's more than cultural...more than Knee Deep!
It's like trying 2 explain the Gospel song
~God Gave Me a Song, that the Angels can't sing~
I hope U feel me on this one, but Angels have never been persecuted in any way, never been hated, mistreated etc. So If God gave me a song that the Angels can't sing, then it's MY song and I can stand on top of Mt. Everest and sing my song. I think waht Isaih is saying is if it's suppose 2 B fried N a pan, don't fry it N a Pot or, sweet R the Grapes & the Wine, but don't 4 get about the Vine...Capice

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:28 pm:

Wow Medusa, that was deep!

By isaiah (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:30 am:

Yes, Medusa, that was Bomb! But to One Love what you say is so damned simplistic it's silly... Yo' we had a movement in this country once, based on non-violence and love, love, love to all who would partake, and what happened to it's leader..? Was he "divisive", was he a flaming radical, like me..?(smile!) How can there be all of this love and understanding when folk cannot even discuss what they feel important without this kind of hysterical, control freak shit..? One Love if you were me, and my kind of people then you'd understand where precisely I'm coming from... It's clearer to me, now, what the dissonance and the defensiveness is all about... To paraphrase the Last Poets, it's a story so old, one oft times told...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:49 am:

My bleak attempt at the Northern Soul Story can be found by clicking Northern Soul Tour at the top of the page.

It is a celebration of the impact African American people have had on the people of the United Kingdom.

By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:59 am:

There are many references on this site to Southern folks moving North to Detroit. Latest one is on page 2 of......

http://www.soulfuldetroit.com/web08-johnniemaematthews/index.html

Johnnie Mae was from Alabama.

By Stevie (213.86.59.100) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:06 am:

It is important to look at what inspires the music. The civil rights movement was not always based on non-violence. The hard funky sounds of James Brown, "Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud", came out at a time when many activists had given up on the Dr Martin Luther King strategy following his assassination. Self defence and revolutionary change were proposed by Malcom X and The Black Panthers to end the racist system. This was reflected by black music becoming much more openly political by the early seventies in many instances.

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.9.168) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:36 am:

Isaiah,
Not sure what U mean when U say your kind of people. FYI, I'm African American and there has always been a message in the music. Even during slavery, when they weren't allowed 2 talk 2 eaachother, they would sing a conversation n song. (Can U imagine that, WOW)). How do I know? I was born N Virginia, near Jamestown, (one of the Slave trading areas), I was segregated for 12 whole years, B4 I came 2 Detroit. The only national anthem I knew was 'Lift Every Voice & Sing' when I got here. Let's not 4get either, B4 the Americas' we made conversations with drumbeats & Chants, so the music was always there. The women wore chained belts & ankle chains that jingle N a certain rhythm 2 get a Mans attention and would actually turn him on etc. etc.There's a lot 2 know about Y we sing, dance, and do what we do 2 the MAX! Taking the Yolk & learning of ones own self is of utmost importantance. No, I don't know everything, but I know a lot of things about my heritage, thanx 2 my 98 year old Grandma and a lot of reading the right books, even if they came from another country~Let The Music Play~

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.9.168) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:39 am:

and remember once there's sound, there's rhythm
there can beat without rhythm, make me want 2 move my feet, that's rhythm,
it's N my bones, every time the feeling carries on, I feel that rhythm...Major Lance

By Common (209.2.55.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:43 am:

Hello everyone,

I'm definitely feeling Isiah's post because I've had similar 'battles' about this issue. It will go over some people's heads but some will get it. It is not about division or "tolerance". It's about acknowledgement & acceptance that there is a culture that this music derives from. I have to give David Meikle alot of credit because he strikes me as passionate & sincere about the artfrom. I doubt he would spend all this time, not to mention money, if he wasn't serious. Sincerity & respect about our culture, is what I think Isiah is saying. Anyone can write about the history of it but capturing its essence is quite another, JMHO.

Peace!

By ONE LOVE (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:24 am:

Isaiah,...

Your people hmmm..
that's the problem...

it's US or nothing!!!

By A Horse With No Name (159.53.238.241) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:37 am:

Not for nothing. And I definitely understand the culture thing all the way around. However........., regardless if an individual does or does not have a full understanding of the culture is irrelevant when it comes to simply being moved by any type of music. It is about the groove, the tone, the note and the tension or release created by of all of these things. One does not need to know why a specific music type moves them. Just simply being open to letting the music take you whereever it does spiritually. I personally know of numerous musicians and non-musicians who are incredibly moved by soul music and are not fully knowledgable regarding the culture. I personally know one of the most successful drummers of the past century who is completely unaware of where his extreme funkyness comes from but came to grips with the fact that it is simply NATURAL. Simply put, it ain't about culture, race, or where you live in the food chain. It's about being open enough to accept the feeling that moves you and letting the adventure take you as far as it can before you come down to from the ride.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:03 am:

I think Horse With no Name sums it up nicely in his last paragraph. Isaiah, I think your comments are interesting and I congratulate you for initiating an extreely thought provoking thread. I'm sure we can debate this into next year. However, I think your arguments would be better served on some forum that deals more with socio-political issues. This is a music forum and we are all brought here for the primamry reason of a love for a particular genre of music. Please feel free to continue the discussions on the thread you started but please bear in mind that all members of this forum are to be treated with respect and courtesy. So far I think you've done a good job and I invite all to continue the debate in the spirit of openess of Soulful Detroit.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:06 am:

A Horse W/No Name:
Thank you - you hit the nail on the head IMO.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:27 am:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary, 1989

Soul n...... (7) :a strong, positive feeling conveyed esp. by black American performers; also :Negritude souled adj

Soul adj 1: of, relating to, or characteristic of black Americans or their culter 2:designed for or controlled by blacks .

soul brother n :a black male.

But here we are in the year 2003, and I'm sure Merriam-Webster may have changed the definition by now.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:43 am:

Sorry, I left something out.

Soul adj 1: of, relating to, or characteristic of Black Americans or their culture (food) (music).."

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:47 am:

Sis:
I'm not even gonna go there with Webster's....
Kevin "ain't no dictionary gonna define me!" Goins - KevGo

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:49 am:

"2: designed for or controlled by blacks (radio stations)"

But I notice Allmusic and others are changing the genre soul music to rock music.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:51 am:

Actually, I don't agree that you can separate socio-economic factors from Detroit music.

One of the problems I think researchers from other cultures have, is in making assumptions and not understanding the social milieu in which these artists worked.

There is a definite socio-economic underpinning to Motown and what the Motown stars were going through. Segregation, Jim Crow, the fact that they had to keep black faces off of Motown album covers. You can't separate the music out into a neat package.

However, even those who post here whom I think are totally on the wrong track, mostly have a reverence for the African-American culture from which this music sprang. American humor, American pop culture in general derives so much from Afri-Americans.

And while all the music has roots in the South, it changed perceptibly as it hit each city. Thus we have Memphis soul, Philly soul, Detroit, etc.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:58 am:

SisDetroit.....
.....you have a theory as to why?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:18 pm:

Doug - In regards to changing the genre soul to rock? I think someone here mentioned that it was easier to lump everyting together or something along those lines. But, I have a gut feeling that they want to erase that genre as other histories have been erased.

Some of the non-black posters have mentioned that during the 60's, they would call black music "race music." We never said that. Out definition was "soul" because it was fervently performed, as one would express so passionately in church.

Who was it that record "I'm A Soul Man?"

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:27 pm:

I am a passionate person, but I don't really like to get too personal on the world wide web. This is not the place. That's why I say the subject is to complex to be discussed on Soulful Detroit where we all love "soul" music. (You know what I mean, when I say "soul.")

The song, "Come ye Disconsolate" is a great song which expresses what the blacks had to do in order to be comforted during the hard times in the past and currently.
"Come Ye DISCONSOLATE, wher ee'r ye LANGUISH. Come to the MERCY SEAT, FERVENTLY kneel. Oh here, bring your WOUNDED HEARTS and here, tell your ANGUISH. The earth has no sorrow that HEAVEN CANNOT HEAL."

They had to go "within" fervently, into your heart and soul, in order to survive.

I can't really explain it. You have to be me in order to understand. It is deep!!!!!!!!

By RD (65.150.229.74) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:29 pm:

The lumping of Soul into Rock (actually All Music lumps a lot of genres into the Rock category) is like the census bureau lumping Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, people from Spain, Panamanians, Hondurans, etc. in the HISPANIC category. When I went to school there was no such thing as a Hispanic, the category didn't exist. I've yet to meet anybody who can define the word Hispanic.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

RD - When I worked for the Big Brother, they came up with the word for record keeping purposes as it relates to national origin. Under that term "Hispanic", we had various codes for the different origins, whereby the individual can mark their origin. There were Mexican and Puerto Rican employees who objected to the term.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:42 pm:

HOW ABOUT THIS,WE ARE ALL HERE ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE WE LOVE TO DISCUSS MUSIC AND NOT THROW ROCKS,BYE BYE!

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:42 pm:

But RD - The national origins will not be erased for another 10,000 years. The term soul music will eventually not mean "black music", and will be gone.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:45 pm:

R&B - These are not rocks. These are facts. But you are correct, we all love the music. That is what we have in common.

By RD (65.150.229.74) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:50 pm:

Many classified as hispanics object to the term. It lumps people of different cultures, countries and languages in one category. And you're right the term was thought up by someone in the census bureau to simplify recordkeeping. The problem, however, is people categorized as hispanics are now the largest minority in America. However, if you broke all the people classified as hispanics by their origin (country) they are not the largest minority in the USA.

BTW, I've always resented All Music Guide lumping Soul and R&B into their Rock category.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:56 pm:

Actually, being a minority was not always a negative. In South Africa, the minority was the powerful and the rich, and now they are the rich. :o)

By RD (65.150.229.74) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:05 pm:

Sis, I'm not saying it's a negative at all. It's a positive for the people classified as hispanics. A lot of the benefits that African-Americans, Asians and even whites have been receiving are going to go to this "bogus" minority group now. When the census bureau came up with this category they never thought about the problems it would cause later on...nobody thought hispanics would become the largest minority...or did they?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:08 pm:

As a researcher & music lover I resent companies such as All Music Guide combining Soul & R&B into the Rock heading as well.

Billboard Magazine did this in 1964 when they merged the R&B chart with the Hot 100 pop chart thinking that it'll give soul music equal footing with pop/rock. It was a disaster - resulting in fewer records from both genres having a fair shot at the charts as well as radio/retail not having a guide to track the success of certain records. Therefore, the magazine reinstated the R&B chart in early 1965.

Most record stores combine rock & soul into one big department which, depending on the size of the store, may work or not. I personally prefer separating the two departments (as was the case when I managed record stores)only because it was easier to find records that way.

I also agree with RD's point about people of Spanish-speaking descent. My ex-fiancee was of Puerto Rican/West Indian descent and she resented the term "Hispanic" for the very reasons RD mentioned. Also, I noticed that people of Spanish-speaking descent here in NYC - young and old - refer to their music as Spanish music, not Latin music as the mainstream society calls the genre.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:17 pm:

ISIAH!!!...MY TURN TO WEIGH IN AT THIS TIME!!!...I DO APPRECIATE YOUR ELOQUENCE IN DISCUSSING YOUR POSITION (ALTHOUGH I'M NOT 100-PERCENT CERTAIN JUST WHAT THAT POSITION IS)...HOWEVER...TO GO TO AN IN DEPTH ANALYSIS INTO WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO CLAIM "SOUL MUSIC" AS THEIR AND ONLY THEIR BIRTHRIGHT IS IN MY OPINION RACIST AND JUST NOT ACCURATE!!!...EVERYTHING HAS ROOTS SOMEWHERE...BUT IF THOSE ROOTS DO NOT EXPAND TO ACCOMODATE VARIOUS CULTURES IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF IT'S GROWTH AND EVOLUTION...THEN THOSE ROOTS REMAIN ROOTS...AND CAN NEVER GROW INTO A TREE!!!...LETS LOOK AT SPORTS FOR A GOOD PARALLEL!!!...BASEBALL AND GOLF WERE INVENTED...DEFINED...REFINED...AND PERFECTED TO A CERTAIN LEVEL BY WHITE...EURO BASED CULTURES!!!...WHEN A BIGOTED STATEMENT FROM AN AL CAMPANIS...THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS LACK THE "NECESSITIES" TO MANAGE IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL...THIS IS BASED ON THE IGNORANCE OF JUSTIFIFYING THIS POSITION THAT WHITES INVENTED THE GAME...THUS...ONLY WHITES CAN INTELLECTUALIZE THE NUANCES AND MECHANICS OF THE GAME!!!...HOW UTTERLY STUPID!!!...SAME WITH GOLF...INVENTED IN SCOTLAND!!!...I THINK THAT TIGER WOODS FOR ONE...PROVES THE POINT THAT JUST BECAUSE THE GAME WAS INVENTED WITH A "SCOTTISH" CULTURE IN MIND...THAT AN AFRO-ASIAN CAN TAKE THE GAME TO ANOTHER LEVEL THROUGH THE EVOLUTION OF THE INTERACTION OF VARIOUS CULTURES AS RELATES TO SPORT!!!...WITH YOUR ATTITUDE...THERE WOULD BE NO JACKIE ROBINSON...JACK JOHNSON...MOHAMMAD ALI...HANK AARON...OR TIGER WOODS!!!...THERE WOULD ALSO BE NO MICHAEL MCDONALD...JOAN OSBORNE...JOE MESSINA...BOB BABBIT...OR EVEN STUBASS FOR THAT MATTER...AND THE LISTS COULD GO ON AND ON!!!...LETS ALL CELEBRATE THE ROOTS AND ORIGINS OF SOUL MUSIC...JUST AS WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THE NATURAL EVOLUTION OF THAT GENRE...AND ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THAT EVOLUTION...BLACK...WHITE...ASIAN...AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO PLAYED A PART!!!...STU(WITH A CUT IN MY STRUT)BASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:21 pm:

Stu,
I've always admired your" no BS " approach to things.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

Stubass - I was wondering where you were. One question. When you state: "LETS ALL CELEBRATE THE ROOTS AND ORIGINS OF SOUL MUSIC," could you, with your own definition, explain what "THE ROOTS AND ORIGINS OF SOUL MUSIC" are?

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:29 pm:

HEY SIS!!!...PROBABLY NOT!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:31 pm:

LOL, thanks Stu, I needed that. End of discussion. (LOL)

By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

I agree with R&B


Vickie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 01:53 pm:

Hey Folks:
As far as I'm concerned even though R&B and soul has its roots in Gospel music from the Black church, it took a melting pot of people from different backgrounds to make this music as special as it is.

The Funk Brothers and their colleagues in Detroit...Booker T. & the MGs w/the Mar-Keys (later the Memphis Horns)....the Hi Records Rhythm Section w/Rhodes-Chalmers-Rhodes on background vocals....MFSB (also known as the Salsoul Orchestra)...the Wrecking Crew...the musicians of the Windy City & the Big Apple....Willie & the Magnificents (the All-Platinum gang)...Allen Toussaint, Dr. John, Harold Battiste, the Meters, Wardell Quezerque and the several musicians of New Orleans....Santana and the several musicians who played with Carlos S...James Gadson & Charles Wright's Watts 103st. Rhythm Band...Earth Wind & Fire...the Fania All-Stars...Tito Puente...Celia Cruz...

The list goes on and the pot will always be stirred...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

WooWoo, Great names KevGo - The music sounds good to me. Name some more. Soulful Strings!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:12 pm:

Sis:
Great group! The Soulful Strings were a combination of the Chess Records rhythm section and members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. The group was the brainchild of composer/arranger Richard Evans & producer Esmond Edwards.

"Burning Spear" & "Paint It Black" are my faves...Their album "Groovin' With The Soulful Strings" is a classic.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:16 pm:

I have the first two albums by Soulful Strings.

By Vonnie (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

Isiah,

Thank you so much for your thought provoking post.

I know my roots (african american)and I love my roots; however I also need growth. I participate on this forum because it makes me grow musically. I have interacted with so many different persons with different and varied respectives on "All Things Soul" and that has helped me to grow. Not only have I grown roots but I've grown branches(Jazz, Gospel, Funk, Rap and many other genres). I am still trying to understand the perspective that you're writing from?

As far as African American culture goes, this forum is steeped in acknowledgement of the contributions that the African American culture has spawned. That is the reason why this forum has such a large following and continuum.

What is your objective? Do you think that we should discuss and analyze other forms of music(i.e. Spirituals or Gospel)? I'm primarily interested in the music of my era (1960's thru present). We do discuss and post any genre of music that forum members and poster wish to discuss. Please clue me in Bro on what it is you are trying to accomplish! I know that forum members are well aware of whom Ira Tucker, Clara Ward, Bessie Smith, Jimmy Scott, Big Maybell, Nellie Lutcher, Paul Robeson, Duke Ellington, Major Holly, Nina Simone, Los Pachos Trios, Hector Lavoie(sp) and et al.

Thanks to all who post on this forum we have tackled and dissected all genres of music and the origin and historical aspects.

Culturally saturated,
Vonnie

By Vickie (64.236.243.31) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:41 pm:

Amen Vonnie!


Vickie

By SB (205.186.129.78) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Interesting stuff. Again IMO, before there was "Gospel" or "Church" music - there were Spirituals. Africans sung when they were not allowed to worship in a so-called church. Africans never entered a church when they were in Africa. Just as one can say "SOUL" is nothing but a word - so is the word "Church" or "Gospel."

Again - when the singing of the Africans and persons that were part African was first classified - it was called singing "Spirituals." Why? Why was it named as such? Could it have been because they were sung w/so much spirit? If so - then the word "Soul" as it relates to black music, must have put some in the mind that black people were singing from their Souls. How did the music evolve from the Spirit to the Soul?

I agree that this may not be the forum to get so deep, but since it's carrying on.... I might have gotten the wrong impression about Isaiah's first post. I thought he wanted recognition of some kind, as it pertains to where Soul music game from. I thought most agreed that it was derived from the black experience in America. And we also agreed that - although the blacks were credited w/developing that word Soul as it relates to the way they sung lyrics and made music - many folks from all races - creeds and colors - sing - know and love "Soul music", - and that it no longer is identified solely � w/one color/race/creed.

SisDetroit posted the meaning of the word. And if some don't appreciate the meanings from the dictionary - and you were blasted off in a capsule to some other planet, and when you got back to earth, and realized you were the only one left on earth, and you heard music by many of the artists we speak on today - how would you classify it? Would you call it Soul - or black or white - or Hispanic, or country � or would you call it American? Country, R&B, Jazz, etc. Music is identified as a certain genre right � then am I hearing that the word Soul music is on the outs, and if so, why?

We all know that most of the Africans in America were shipped down south - and that the music, i.e., Spirituals came from them, so hence all other music forms sprung from their experiences, to include Jazz, Blues and R&B. But maybe I'm wrong. We also know that many Africans were shipped to the Islands, so what kind of music is it that sprung from their experiences?

And Ralph I agree. I don't think any of us are discussing this subject to offend. I was just under the impression that Isaiah was just wondering where everybody else thought the beginnings of music made by black people in America came from?

By Isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

Medusa, I dug that you were an African American from the unique, lyrical poetic synopsis(Smile!)... I hope you, nor anyone else is/was offended by my response to One Love, whose response struck me as saccharine and disingenuous... What we all become brothers because we got a mutual love for the music... Wish it were so, but history tells me it aint so, and I do not buy into such fantasies... Perhaps, this is due to living in a cold, hard city, where many run games far more complex than that...(smile!)... My kind of people are open minded and genuine, and willing to walk a mile in another man's shoes... As for my political leanings(which I am sure the question begs!), no doubt, I am an unapologetic Pan Africanist to the core... Medusa, I love your poetry, particularly the piece on Mr. Barry White... I'll stayed tuned for more...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:12 pm:

Isaiah:
If we let "history" dictate who and what we are then we are trapped as a people with little hope for advancement.

I use "history" as a point of reference and move on from there. That's why I come out here on the Forum - to learn from those who were there during the soul/R&B's golden age and who are living examples of the excellence found in the music we love.

As long as you have an open mind, spirit, heart and keep your ears attuned to all sounds you'll be able to appreciate the contributions made from all people, including yourself.

Keep listening and keep growing, amigo!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.238.127.16) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:16 pm:

I think we have a love connection here.

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:56 pm:

Sue: There are two factors here. If you want to discuss the origins of the music and the mechanics of getting it out there in its day, sure you have to understand the socio-political milieu. Berry didn't put the artists on the covers because that would affect sales or whatever, Even as recently as the beginnings of MTV, the same applied. But no one I know, right back to the 60s was in any doubt about the fact that Motown and Stax and Philly meant black artists. We in the UK and Europe had no problem with that. That was a local difficulty. The same reason Berry used white promoters.

You don't need to know anything about that to appreciate the musicianship and the creativity. You only need it for historical context within one of many countries. OK, it's the country where it originated, but the music itself spoke directly to people who knew nothing about the US or its political goings on.

Nobody needed to understand the British class ssytem as it existed in the 1960s to dig the Beatles or the internecine struggles of the Catholic Church in France to go along with the Singing Nun.

The fact is the whole world owes more to African culture than is recognised at the moment and we are much closer together than those who divided to rule would have us be. Much is owed to every strand of human endeavour and every creation of man is a sum total of multifarious elements.

There are two subjects as I started out to say. The music is the one of them this forum specialises in - and where that is concerned everyone here is here for the same thing.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:16 pm:

Sorry Dave,
I don't agree. The Beatles' class origins are very important if you're assessing why they happened when and where they did ...I was a huge Beatles fan and spent time studying in London so I know enough about British music and culture to know what I don't know. I wouldn't presume to tell people in London or Liverpool about the local scene.

You can't make assumptions about the R&B scene in Detroit based upon the R&B scene in London, and yet people do that all the time.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:49 pm:

p.s.
But of course, music can be appreciated and enjoyed by everybody. And the music transcends national and racial boundaries.

One example of something I learned about the differences between British and American culture; outspoken women aren't as appreciated there (in the U.K.) as here. American men are a little more tolerant of that (laugh). I see that play out on this forum all the time.

By zeke (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

Stu I believe you said that you did not understand what I was trying to accomplish, and then you went on a foray into baseball, golf, and Al Campanis, and the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn(smile!)... Yo', relax, papa... Aint nothin' personal... Stu take a look at this thread, and you and sister Vonnie, and others who claim Not to know what I wanted to accomplish will see mission accomplished(smile!)... Dig the title of my thread Stu, Ms. Vonnie... I Believe it is entitled "discussions of African American Culture at this Website", or words to that effect... I don't think baseball, basketball and football are analogous to this discussion, but if you do, that's cool... I don't beleive that I ever mentioned the word "race" either, because Isaiah does not believe in the concept of race and color... You see, the scientists are telling us that we come from a common DNA,(though not a common CULTURE) and there is no biological basis for race... Stu, I'm 'bout to do some family geneological research, so don't be surprised if YOU don't turn up as one of my relatives(smile!)...

Oh, and I am comfortable with the whole idea of multicultural contributions to the music... I'd like you to elaborate on what those contributions are as one of the learned scholar of this board... Please do not cop out on my request...

Finally, I hope that some of you who claimed you didn't know what I was talking about, or getting at, will exhale, and pat yourselves on the back for accepting the challenge of discussing issues outside of your comfort zones...

Peace and Blessings, Northern Soul!
Isaiah

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:39 pm:

ISAIAH!!!...NO OFFENSE INTENDED...AND NO OFFENSE TAKEN!!!...I...FOR ONE...AM COMFORTABLE DISCUSSING ANY AND ALL ASPECTS OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY...AND ANY AND ALL SOCIETAL INFLUENCES ON IT!!!...IF YOU HAVE...IN FACT...ACCOMPLISHED YOUR MISSION AS RELATES TO THIS THREAD...THAN...THATS GOOD(ALTHOUGH I STILL MUST ADMIT THAT I'M SOMEWHAT CONFUSED AS TO JUST WHAT THAT MISSION WAS)...BUT THATS OK TOO!!!...I DO SEE THE RELEVANCE OF THE SPORTS ANALOGY...BUT IF YOU DON'T...THAT TOO IS OK!!!...I AM HAPPY TO DISCUSS THESE AND OTHER ISSUES WITH YOURSELF...IN THAT...YOU DO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES IN AN ACADEMIC AND RESPECTFUL MANNER...WHICH...DESPITE WHAT YOUR HYPOTHISIS MAY BE...IS CERTAINLY WORTHY OF DISCUSSION!!!...KEEP POSTING...AND DON'T BE AFRAID OF CONTRIVERSEY...SO LONG AS IT IS PRESENTED IN A GENUINE AND LEGITIMATE FASHION...AND IN GOOD SPIRIT!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:17 pm:

I'm patting myself on the back!! Are you happy now?

By Des (81.152.238.57) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:21 pm:

THE FOLLOWING IS THE GLASWEGIAN COMING OUT IN ME A LA ISAIAH'S BROOKLYN 'COVER'.....SARCASM
I think whatever direction any posts take on this Thread,our friend Isaiah will claim success.
I agree with STU regarding confusion on just what is/was Isaiah's "mission".
If Isaiah posted mischievously to elicit any response.....how clever - not.
I definitely do suspect anyone that talks about himself in the third person.
His sign-off is a weak attempt to make fun of his foolish misapprehension of Northern Soul.
His final paragraph is condescending and adds to his earlier "digs" at people on this Forum.
IMO,most of you have been way too polite with this guy.

By Edgar (200.46.132.136) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:43 pm:

Please someone tell me if I am wrong: I read long ago an article where it was stated that rock is a music genre of African-American origin. The author even said that "to rock" originally meant to have sex. If this is true, then non-African-Americans have make the term theirs to the point of putting down African-American music and denying it the "rock" label.

By Edgar (200.46.132.136) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:44 pm:

P.S. If this is true, then soul is true rock. The other music is in many cases... noise?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:47 pm:

Edgar - All I have to say on that is "they may as well take the term soul." We'll think of something else. :o)

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:30 pm:

Edgar,
Originally lt the term " rock and roll " was a euphimism for " you know what ".

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:39 pm:

That's why some of the parents wouldn't let their teen agers listen to R&R. It was about love and dance. But Elvis forced the change.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:51 pm:

Sis,
Elvis may have done some forcing but it would take Chubby Checker and The Twist to solidify the deal. I'll never forget my amazement when watching the Gary Moore show end one night with everyone, including Carol Burnette, twisting. That dance seemed to bring the generations, if not together, then a little closer. All of a sudden Rock & Roll was growing up.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:04 pm:

That Chubby could twist. Everyone was twisting for years, and still do. Tell me this, why was Chubby Checker's twist more popular than Hank Ballard's?

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:11 pm:

I'm not sure Sis. It migh have had more of a " pop " feel to it than Hank's.

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:16 pm:

Back in the fifties and early to mid sixties,
when Georgie Woods of WDAS or any other African American radio personality would announce a show would announce a show at the Uptown, or any other venue, it would always be referred to as a "rock and roll show" as in come see the Christmas rock and roll show at the Uptown featuring...whoever the currentAfrican American stars of the day happened to be.

The "mixed race" shows at Convention Hall were also referred to as rock and roll shows.

In Philly, even the Motown revue was referred to as a rock and roll show.

Only later on after all the riots and such did we have shows at Convention hall that were dubbed "Freedom Shows".


I actually played on one accompanying the Vibrations and Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles where MLK gave a speech and I had the honor of meeting him and shaking his hand.
This was in early 1968 not long before his untimely death.

The show also featured James Brown, Sam and Dave, the Four Tops and a host of others.

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:19 pm:

Sis,
Chubby got major play because he was on American Bandstand lots. His song was on Cameo Parkway too, so who knows? Better promotion, etc. Friends of Dick C's. Lotsa things.

Norman Thrasher says he and the Midnighters taught Chubby how to Twist, they had no hard feelings about it.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:22 pm:

When I think of rock N roll, I think of the 50's, prior to doo wop. When I think of the 60's, I think of R&B.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:24 pm:

Or at least prior to The Drifters.

By Isaiah (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:04 pm:

Yo, Des, why don't you just say you wanna lock me up and throw away da key, man... After all, it's all a negro conspiracy, right?(smile!)... Des, despite your paranoid incomprehension of what, as you put it, I was "trying to accomplish", even after I took pains to put it in the TITLE of my post, and explain it in several others, mission was accomplished to my satisfaction... Oh, and by the way, Des, everyone who starts a thread at this board, or any other discussion board in cyberspace, is trying to draw others into that discussion, so I guess Isaiah(third person again-wooooooo!)is guilty as charged... As Stu might say, don't take the world so serious-ly!

As for my sarcasm, Des, I'm sorry if ya feelings got hurt papa...

Peace and Blessings to You and Your Family, Des!
Isaiah

By Scratcher (65.238.127.192) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:25 pm:

Sis, "The Twist" by Hank Ballard was the B-Side of the excellent "Teardrops On My Letter," which is one of the finest songs Hank ever waxed. Syd Nathan thought "The Twist was too risque to get airplay, something he had experienced with some earlier Ballad recordings.

By SisDetroits (68.42.209.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:33 pm:

Oh Scratcher. That is the song "Teardrops On My Letter." Thank you.

By medusa (66.73.15.96) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:44 pm:

Ok, I'm back(after 8hrs. of work). I've read most of the postings.
All I have 2 say is if Paul McCartney were 2 come on this Forum and Post his claim 2 fame of of The Beatles & the beginning of the British Invasion during the 60's, nothing will B challenged or said, or criticized.
Maybe Isaiah came on a little brassy, but his point is~he doesn't want the real 'Soul Music' 2 get lost N the shuffle. Just like if I didn't know any better, I would've thought Black People never existed N the Bible Times of even N the Land of Egypt (which actually is NOrth Africa), or never were Kings & Queens. There's so much 2 learn when U speak of Black/African/Negro Peoples of this Planet Earth, and it goes back much further than Slavery, where we've always been known 4 our song & dance, even if we weren't allowed 2 read books. So let's not hop on the 'Racial' bandwagon here just because someone wants to keep it real. What's wrong with a Black person claiming Soul Music? Although it's been borrowed, copied & sampled, we R not the imitators. It's more 2 it that meets the ear. I mean a Black person couldn't or wouldn't sing a Beatle song and claim 2 B an originator of the British Invasion, style of song, or sing a Rolling Stone song and then call it Southern British style music, (now Y is that)? Our Music/& it's Rhythm just happen 2 B one of our most Powerful Passions & Possessions, it's just the way we do the things we do and that's Y it's copied and imitated and that's Y we R here, BECAUSE WE LOVE "SWEET SOUL MUSIC"

By LostInSoul (172.150.172.206) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:08 pm:

DON'T FORGET RAP MUSIC MEDUSA, THAT'S OUR BABY TOO. EMINEM MAY BE THE KING OF DETROIT FOR NOW BUT WE (AFRICAN-AMERICANS)INVENTED THE STYLE AND NOBODY CAN TAKE IT AWAY FROM US.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

WELL MEDUSA AND LOSTINSOUL!!!...IT WAS DICK GREGORY (BROTHER GREG) HIMSELF WHO SAID...COME UP WITH SOMETHING GOOD...AND SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS TRY TO STEAL IT FROM YOU!!!...HOWEVER...NOT TO DENY TRADITION AND HERITAGE...PERHAPS WE CAN ALL "CELEBRATE" IN WHATS GOOD...REGARDLESS OF HERITAGE...WHILE GIVING CREDIT TO THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US!!!...AS FOR EMINEM...HE'S ALL YOURS!!!...STUBASS

By Larry (68.164.130.144) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:12 pm:

...and I got prosecuted for my opinion that Patsy Cline (G-d love 'er) wasn't what SOUL means TO ME.
(capitalization denotes emphasis - or screaming)

p.s. I appreciate Isaiah's moxie (guts) for speaking his mind. Sugar coated NO, Passionate YES. Medusa's post of 9:36am was a standout FOR ME.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:35 pm:

AS TO MY "ANGEL" MEDS EARLIER POST!!!...DR CHARLES DREW...A BLACK MAN...INVENTED THE METHOD FOR STORING AND ENABELING THE USE OF BLOOD PLASMA..WHICH HAS SAVED COUNTLESS LIVES SINCE THE 40'S!!!...DR. DREW...BLED TO DEATH...AFTER A SOUTH CAROLINA HOSPITAL REFUSED TO ADMIT HIM FOLLOWING A CAR ACCIDENT...AND HE DIED ENROUTE TO THE "COLORED HOSPITAL"...DUE TO A LOSS OF BLOOD!!!...SHOULD THE INVENTION OF USEABLE "BLOOD PALSMA" BE RESTRICTED TO AFRICAN AMERICANS...SINCE A BLACK MAN PERFECTED IT???...SHOULD HEART TRANSPLANTS...PERFECTED BY DR. CHRISTIAN BARNARD...A WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN...BE LIMITED TO WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS...SINCE A WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN PERFECTED IT???...NO!!!...WE SHOULD ALL SHARE ON AN EQUAL BASIS WITH WHATS RIGHT WITH THIS WORLD...REGARDLESS OF WHO CAME UP WITH THE IDEA!!!...IT'S WHATS IN YOUR "SOUL" THAT MATTERS...AND SEGMENTING THE GOOD THINGS AND THE BAD...ONLY FURTHER ALIENATE AND SEPERATE US...RATHER THAN BRINGING US TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE THE GOOD THINGS THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US!!!...STUBASS

By Isaiah (64.12.105.22) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 05:45 am:

Larry and Medusa, I believe you both hit the nail squarely on it's head, particularly Medusa's references to the Beatles and the Stones, who've both attributed their styles to the inspiration provided by African-American Bluesmen and women... The dispute is about cultural copyright, for inspite of the "contributions" of others, there is a point of agency, where take what you do, and transform it based on my cultural sensibilities... For example, in African there are many stringed instruments, but there was no such thing called a fiddle or violin or European scales... We had to learn, or be taught, whichever you prefer, these things, and we did... This is an academic cultural transferral... What came next, however, was bringing this cultural transferral into our own cultural context and sensibility... Thus, we have the Beatles, Elvis, the Stones, and Joe Bataan, Joe Cuba, and Jimmy Sabater doing Latin Soul, and Eddie "Bongo" Brown doing riffs on Motown records... Yes, there are cultural contributions all over the place, but let's please not over state and over rate them...
There is a debate over the cultural copyright of Salsa, too, among the Puerto Ricans and Cubans, though most would say they should share in that copyright... In the interest of accurately keeping the record, however, I must say that adding some trombones to spice the sound of an already powerful tradition seems to me, an over-statement of one's contributions, though a contribution it may be, dig?

Finally, I believe that "Soul" is a term we, as African Americans have used to describe a multitude of things, including the food we eat, and the manner in which we speak, and sing and dance and fight and make love... Funk, as I attempted to elaborate on in that February post, fits into that same category... I would that folk would understand that knowledge is power,. and when one seeks to convey knowledge about their culture, folk who live outside of the context of that culture should simply give ear(listen), and not take things personally, or shout people down, because when you do, you expose your deepest insecurities... Man, I aint trying to tell Italians how they should cook pizza and spaghetti, or tell Rabbis how to interpret the Torah, but I will listen to them as they speak in their cultural context, because it behooves and broadens, me as one who wants to learn and to know about other folk and their cultures... Meanwhile, these same folk(as well as some at this board)are trying to TELL me(Pontificate to me) about a world I've lived in all of my life, and that is why I have taken this position that these things need to be discussed - for the purposes of UNDERSTANDING!

Years ago, in a small record shop in the Village(Greenwich Village for non-NewYorkers), there was a guy there who actually began chiding me, and by context, the entire African American community, about the term "devil's music..." "Man, how could you people call this beautiful music, devil's music..?" Whew, the assumptions folk make because they have not come up in the culture! This example is one of the reasons I have wanted to discuss Our culture here, so that we may understand these questions in their proper cultural context, meaning "devil's music" is any freakin' music that doesn't give praise to Jesus, and is not a wide-spread belief in the African American community... What saddens me is that African Americans oft cower in a corner when these dumb-assed accusations are made, rather than schooling the offender... Yeah, I've seen that too at Northern Soul - truth be told... Well, I refuse to do that, because I was once told if ya know better you should do better... How many y'all know what I'm talkin' 'bout..? Sometimes, you gotta take a stand, or you'll fall for everything... Once again, the CULTURE is what I have endeavored to discuss here, not just the music, or Charles Drew, Stu(smile!)... Any further professions of confusion, in my humble opinion, is the result of your own cognitive dissonance, or flat-out refusal to understand...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By SB (205.186.128.222) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:32 am:

Good Morning All,

Well said Isaiah. I agree w/many of your points this a.m.

STUBASS - I don't think anyone was saying that the music attributed to black folk shouldn't be shared. In my estimation it has always been about pointing out achievements. Do you agree w/all of these award type shows? I can take them or leave them - but since watching and keeping up w/them is a part of the American culturisic thing - I peep in on some of them.

Again - Achievement is the key word here. I am proud of many things black folk have achieved. Too many times their ideas - inventions and the like were stolen. And in many cases these thefts have never been fully rectified - as it pertains to bestowing them back to the originator.

I am like Medusa and SisDetroit in that, I eat up history information about black people. I read every inch of that site Coach21 posted under the Sam Cooke thread. I've always been like that. When I was in school - I never saw a black person in school books unless they were half naked and were toting and carrying for someone else. And/or they were in chains. I understand that now there is more black history being taught in schools.

I don't need just one month a year to yearn to learn about black history. I live w/it everyday - and learn as much as I can when I can. Knowledge not only is power - but the correct knowledge teaches peace and prosperity of the spirit.

Again - I am proud of that man that invented blood plasma - and I am glad he shared it w/the world. But I came to this topic just to wet my feet as it pertains to where black music in America came from. No one can convince me not to be proud of many things attributed to black people or their achievements regardless of what it has to do with - and yes - black people have always been willing to share many things. They have not been invited to share in so many others.

Have a great day - STU "Pass The Peace Pipe" BASS.

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:08 am:

Isiah & Medusa- Thank you both. You've said what I've been trying to articulate on other sites(not this one) for a couple of years. This post might get lost in the shuffle of posts but I just wanted to say "thanks" for dropping some 'science' on the forum. It is much appreicated.

Peace!

By Soulfinger (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:16 am:

Ah,

So only African-Americans can talk about R&B/soul music, while the rest must be quiet and listen.

"...folk who live outside of the context of that culture should simply give ear(listen), and not take things personally, or shout people down ..."

Isaiah has finally revealed his plan.

Thus, this entire website should be dismantled, for it was designed and written by a white guy.

Of course, the guy who made this site loves Detroit music, documents it rabidly and shares his knowledge with all. But he must simply listen as you lecture, eh? Common and Medusa, do you agree with this part of Isaiah's grand plan?

Then what Soul Forum are you going to go to instead of this one?

By Soulfinger (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:17 am:

I mean,
Common and Medusa. Where will you go, since of course you can't be part of this white guy's website forum?

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:24 am:

Soulfinger,

If you read my previous post yesterday, I did give props to David. Hello? And btw, Medusa & I aren't the only ones that agreed with Isiah. So what's your point in just targeting us? You take one sentence out of context to reveal some "great scheme" of Isiah's. Man, knock yourself out. You don't get it.

Peace!

By medusa (66.73.5.165) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:30 am:

As far as Blacks or any other people 'Sharing' their culture with the world..some share, some conquer and divide. Which is Y the whole world is a messy Pot today. I remember wehn everyone (even some Blacks) would point, make fun, and laugh at the old African Movies and at their hairstyles. When Bo Derek started wearing
braids & cornrows, it became popular and no on laughed...N every beauty pagent, Ms. South Africa doesn't look anything like me or any woman of African decent...but you will never ever see a Woman or Man of Africn decent represent Europe (and Y is that)? they have Black people there too. I think some people who call themselves sharing, end up completley letting go of what they think they are sharing to those who will steal, conceal, & hide. It's like I said before, the study and the mystery of Black People physically/spiritually/ & emotionally is something to behold, one must read, talk to those who know the past ( a very old honest person in their right mind)/and~or some one from another Land. (According to American HIStory, we started off as slaves).
There's nothing wrong with liking someone elses house, but you don't have to move in and take it over, like the person never lived there.
..and Stu yes, Dr. Drew did die before he could get to a Hospital, but the people who were to transport him to the Hospital were white, and they refused to do so. There's no secret, this is one of the most "Bias" nation in the world.
((Man, I'm glad I didn't start this Topic))
I guess it's something to be known/taught and now it is.
Like I said before, we are not imitators, and if we were, where did we get our Soul from???

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:36 am:

BTW, Soulfinger, I guess Dr. Jane Elliott, Phillip Hacker & Martin Bendel got a "scheme" go on to, huh?

Peace!

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:37 am:

I'M SURE THAN COMMON AND MEDUSA AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE SOULFINGER!!!...THIS IS MEERELY A DISCOURSE...AND EVERYONE IS STATING THEIR OPINION!!!...HOWEVER...IF ISAIAH AND OTHERS CARE TO SHOW ANY TYPE OF "CONSISTANCEY TO THEIR ARGUMENT...THEN IT IS INDEED SAD TO SAY THAT LEONTYNE PRICE LACKS THE LEGITIMACY IN THE OPERATIC WORLD AS LETS SAY MARIA CALLIS (AN ORIGINAL EUROPEAN)!!!...IT IS ALSO SAD TO SAY...AT LEAST ACCORDING TO THEIR ARGUMENT...THAT ANDRE WATTS HAD NO BUSINESS BEING AT THE FOREFRONT OF CONDUCTING AND MASTERING CLASSICAL (YOU KNOW...EURO BASED CULTURE) MUSIC!!!...AND WINTON MARSALLIS (BORN INTO A SOUTHERN AFRICAN AMERICAN JAZZ CULTURE) SHOULD NEVER HAVE RECORDED THOSE BEAUTIFUL MOZART WORKS WITH THE NATIONAL SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA THAT HE DID!!!...IF THIS IS INDEED ISAIAH'S ARGUMENT...THEN AT LEAST BE CONSISTANT (YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS)...AND I WILL NOT ONLY DISAGREE WITH YOU ON YOUR INITIAL PREMISE...BUT WILL CONTINUE TO RESPECT WINTON MARSALLIS'S KNOWLEDGE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC...MARION ANDERSONS CONTRIBUTIONS TO OPERA (EVEN THOUGH I'M NO BIG OPERA FAN)...CHARLEY PRIDES SUCCESS IN THE WORLD OF COUNTRY MUSIC...SORRY IF YOUR CULTURE WONT ALLOW YOU TO APPRECIATE SUCH THINGS!!!...STUBASS

By Oberserving This Mess (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:43 am:

I like Stubass better when's he operating in his goody mode. When he gets serious the real person comes out and that person makes the late Lester Maddox seem like a liberal.

By Des (217.42.9.37) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:59 am:

Isaiah/
Coming to the conclusion that 'I want to lock you up' etcetera, is nothing but conjecture (ie 'formation of opinion on incomplete grounds') oh,and wrong.
The more incoherence I read from you however,the more inclined I am to be disdainful of your thoroughly well-intended positions.
My beef is with how and where you're directing your anger and resentment(which some posters are just choosing to ignore).....however,you're smart enough to get alongside some fellow posters here.....and everything's just mighty fine.
You've succeeded in alienating me with your badly communicated arguments and sarcasm (oh,and the very very irritating and debatably sincere use of "(smile)").
Take it easy and good luck in whatever you do.

By Isaiah (204.76.128.217) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:26 am:

SoulFinger, dig yaself, man... Ya point is lame, and I am not going to waste much more time with this... Even if I wanted to stop folk from partaking of the culture I couldn't... Hell, I want you to enjoy it like I enjoy reading by electric light(smile!)... You all who claim to not understand what I have said here are reading Stu Bass and Ralph, his cheerleader's, posts, and not mine... Here's to you Soulfinger, enjoy this beautiful culture, but keep ya hands off the copyrights... That's all I've got to say... Stop telling the world that the music, the language, the dance is not something African people could have arrived at by ourselves... Our ancestors, in essence, came to these shores with many skills and talents from rich millenial cultures... This entire hemisphere, from the United States to Brazil proves unquestionably that African Cultures are one of the most magnificent entities ever imported here... It is time we TOOK - not asked for - that validation... Now, if you wanna be a little freakin' knucklehead, and march off this website because of this one discussion thread you go right ahead, but as I said, if we are willing to share our culture with you, then, yes, when we speak as those with authentic ties to the culture, you should listen... If you speak about the British Culture, you are speaking as a greater authority on it than I, and I acknowledge that... Failure to acknowledge your authority and authenticity about British Culture as a British person reflects a lack of humility and desire to learn on my part... The freakin' hysteria that has come from, yes, white folks at this site is deplorable, and I am not going to bite my tongue about it... You have been arrogant and "stank" and hysterical - and all because I broached an idea which many, mostly African American, know must be discussed here, and everywhere possible. That's cool, because, as I said, this credit, this validation for our cultural contributions we must TAKE, as in taking that which belongs to you is not stealing, not racist, not seeking to deny others the right to enjoy the culture as they may... Oh, the time-honored practice of demonizing, particularly Black Men, who take unpopular positions is something that has been subtly happening here, too... Let's stop the name-calling, and the insinuations, and continue to have some reasonable discussions... Oh, and Mr. Miekle and I are kindred spirits, a tough-as-nails, bad-ass man, who was, perhaps, one of the only folk who had something positive to say to me regarding my post back in February... I thank God for him, for through him we can have this, other less controversial conversations... Thank You David!

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:28 am:

FINAL TAKE ON THIS TOPIC...SINCE DRIVING TO WORK...I COULDN'T GET THAT DAMN CHARLEY PRIDE HIT..."KISS AN ANGEL GOOD MORNING" OUT OF MY HEAD (ALTHOUGH THE IDEA OF KISSING ANGELS IN THE MORNING DOES CARRY SOME APPEAL)!!!...MED...SINCE I HAVE STUDIED "AFRICAN AMERICAN" HISTORY TO A GREATER DEGREE THAN 99-PERCENT OF THE POPULATION...AS MY PROFESSORS...CURTIS ANDERSON AND DR. CHARLES HILL JR (SON OF THE ESTEEMED DETROIT MINISTER WOULD ATTEST...I WOULD BE HAPPY TO DISCUSS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF SUCH PEOPLE AS TOUSSANT...CRISPUS ATTUCKS...JOHN BROWN...SLAVERY...RECONSTRUCTION...PLESSEY V FERGUSON...BROWN V BOARD OF EDUCATION...JIM CROW...MARCUS G...DR. KING...MALCOM...ROSA PARKS (WHO I HAVE THE PRIVILIDGE OF KNOWING AND BEFRIENDING)...HUEY...STOKLEY...H. RAP...ETC...BUT PERHAPS IN A DIFFERENT MILLEU!!!...I HAVE ALSO STUDIED EUROPEAN HISTORY AND AMERICAN HISTORY!!!...LET ME STATE THAT THIS DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY MORE INSIGHT INTO THE "BLACK EXPERIENCE" THAN ANYONE ELSE!!!...NOR DO I CLAIM TO HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE INTO THE "WHITE EXPEREINCE" OR THE "JEWISH EXPERIENCE" THAN ANYONE ELSE...ONLY THE "STUBASS EXPERIENCE"!!!...WHILE I STILL DO NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND MY BROTHER ISIAH'S POINT...I DO SEE HIS AGENDA!!!...THATS ALL COOL!!!...TO SUM UP MY FEELINGS ON THIS MATTER...I WOULD DEFER TO THE LATE GREAT CURTIS MAYFIELD!!!...PLEASE PULL OUT A CUT OF HIS CLASSICS..."CHOICE OF COLORS" OR "MIGHTY MIGHTY...SPADE AND WHITEY"...AND YOU WILL SEE WHERE CURTIS HAS EXPRESSED MY FEELINGS MORE ELOQUENTLY THAN I EVER COULD!!!...PEACE...LOVE...AND BROTHERHOOD!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:37 am:

PS TO OBSERVING THE MESS!!!...YOU HAVE CERTAINLY DISPROVEN THE THEORY THAT DINOUSOURS HAVE GONE INTO EXTINCTION!!!...SINCE YOU HAVE TOTALLY FAILED TO GRASP THE CONCEPT OF MY EARLIER POST...MAY I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT GREAT STRIDES HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE FIELD OF ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER!!!...ALSO...WHEN I MAKE OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS LIKE YOU DID...AT LEAST I HAVE THE BALLS TO CALL MY REAL NAME TO IT!!!...*STUBASS*

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:39 am:

Sue: I can't speak for my compatriots, but I prefer girls - even (or especially) outspoken ones. All but one of my best bosses have been women. Now I work for myself, of course.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:55 am:

Isaiah & Company:
Great discussion, folks. As a preacher's kid I understand Isaiah's frustration when someone refers to R&B music or secular music as "the devil's music" and is not corrected. My father played jazz records alongside gospel and dared anyone to tell him he shouldn't be mixing up the genres. I have nothing against God-fearing folks (being one myself) but I draw the line when they project their righteousness upon others.

As for this site, when David Meikle told me in Detroit back in May that one of his goals for Soulful Detroit was to reach the Black youth so they could learn and be proud of the contributions made by those from the Detroit music scene, he solidified the respect I already had for him and still do. While it has taken me a while to read and understand what everyone is saying, this thread Isaiah created does bring into light the discussion of this music's roots and how we all as a people contributed to its growth. That's what makes SD so special.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Berating The Mess (67.40.203.32) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:32 pm:

OBSERVING THE MESS

KISS MY BIGGGGGGGGGGGGG BLACK AFRICAN AMERICAN
----?

That's for the Lester Maddox crack on STUBASS

By Isaiah (204.76.128.217) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:34 pm:

Stu Bass, once again, you are totally off base! Never have I said that Lisa Stansfeld, George Michael or Michael McDonald, or Stan Getz, Or Gerry Mulligan, or Larry Harlow, or Frank Sinatra, or Boz Scaggs can't bring da Noise... I enjoy all kinds of music, but I realize that African people are not the cultural authors of European classical music, papa... It's a simple question of rendering unto Ceasar that which is his own, and your reluctance to do so reflects some things about you that are becoming unsavory to me... There's just so many ways I can explain this and supposedly intelligent African and European history scholars still don't get it(SMILE! - that's for you Des!)... Leontyne Price, Wynton, Andre Watts worked hard and deserve their plaudits, but none of them have jack-shit to do with the creation of the cultural iconography of classical European music, and I am sure they would humbly submit to that fact... Meanwhile, you just can't deal with admitting that African Americans, multi=cultural contributions of others all withstanding, created this thing from out of a vast cultural memory, which includes Jazz, the Blues, Jump, Boogie Woogie, Gospel, Jubilee, and Negro spirituals... You kinda been insinuating that, even in a rigidly segregated society, whites and blacks all sat down in Congo Square and made it happen... Yo, that kind of revisionist history will not wash, Stu, and I don't give a damn how many names I'm called... Better men than me have endured worse, and are my example... All folk are welcome to enjoy this music, and this culture, and though it has escaped Stu Bass and Des, and Soulfinger, I have tried to give some insights into the culture...

Peace and Blessings

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:51 pm:

WELL!!!...I AM TRULY SORRY THAT YOU FEEL SO OPPRESSED ISAIAH...BUT PERHAPS A LOOK IN THE MIRROR WILL DO MORE TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM THEN LOOKING AT LITTLE OLD ME OR ANYONE ELSE!!!...FIRST OF ALL...IF YOU CAN SHOW ME WHERE I *EVER* DENIED THE CONTRIBUTION TO THE EXISTANCE OF AFRICAN AMERICANS TO THE CREATION...EVOLUTION...OR PARTICIPATION OF THE TYPES OF MUSIC YOU DESCRIBE...I'LL EAT *YOUR* HAT!!!...I THINK THAT YOU HAVE AN AGENDA WHICH IS BLINDING YOU TO THE REALITY OF OTHER PEOPLES WORDS...SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!...YOU'D BETTER CHECK OUT *MY* POSTS...AND PLEASE REFLECT MY STATEMENTS ACCURATELY...NOT INACCURATLY IN AS SO MUCH AS TO ADVANCE YOUR OWN PERSONAL AGENDA!!!...AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE CONTRIBUTED IMMENSELY TO OUR CULTURE...MUSIC...AND SOCIETY...AND FOR ONE TO DENY THAT IS NOT LOOKING AT REALITY!!!...YOU MAY WANT TO GET OVER YOUR SELF HATE VICTIMIZATION COMPLEX...AND CELEBRATE WITH THE REST OF US THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF MANY AMERICANS TO THE GREAT...GREAT MUSIC THAT WE KNOW AS SOUL MUSIC...AND THE MANY GREAT AMERICANS WHO OVERCAME A LOT MORE THAN YOU OR I TO GIVE US THIS WONDERFUL GIFT!!!...AND PLEASE...IF YOU WANT TO ATTRIBUTE ANY STATEMENT OR ATTITUDE TO ME...PLEASE GET IT RIGHT NEXT TIME!!!...STUBASS

By Talk to the Hand (67.40.203.32) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:56 pm:

Okay all it is time to end this thread. When there are barbs that are specifically directed toward forum members they should be ignored. And not only that, this thread has gone from the sublime to the asinine. I will now let Isaiha "Talk to the hand".

L

Talk to the Hand

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 01:58 pm:

AND MY POINT IS...THAT WHILE LEONTYNE...WINTON...AND ANDRE DID NOT CREATE THE CULTURAL "ICONOLOGY" OF CLASSICAL MUSIC...NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE WHO IS ALIVE TODAY (BLACK OR WHITE)...THEY ADVANCED AND CONTRIBUTED TO THE EVOLUTION OF SAID MUSIC FORM...JUST AS MANY AMERICANS TODAY (BLACK AND WHITE) HAVE DONE TO FURTHER THE CAUSE OF SOUL MUSIC...AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE *THAT*...JUST LOOK AT WHAT A GUY NAMED ALLAN SLUTSKY DID TO ADVANCE AND INTRODUCE TO AMERICA THE WORK OF A GROUP OF GUYS KNOWN AS *THE FUNK BROTHERS*!!!...STUBASS

By ONE LOVE (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 02:04 pm:

Isaia has tunnel vision and an agenda....

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 02:11 pm:

PS TO ISAIAH!!!...THANK YOU FOR YOUR "PERMISSION" TO ALLOW ME TO ENJOY "SOUL MUSIC"!!!...STU(EVER GRATEFUL)BASS

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 02:47 pm:

I'M WAITING ISAIAH!!!...AS YOU ARE NOW PROBABLY FRANTICALLY SEARCHING THE ARCHIVES TO FIND *ANY* SUCH STATEMENT BY ME AS YOU HAVE FRAUDULENTLY ATTRIBUTED TO ME!!!...I'M WAITING!!!...STUBASS

By TLC (172.155.16.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

Leave him alone Stu, Isaiah's not bothering you now. You need to chill.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

STILL WAITING ISAIAH...STILL WAITING!!!...HEY...WHY DON'T YOU GO PISS ON SOMEONE ELSES LEG AND TELL *THEM* IT'S RAINING!!!...STUBASS

By SB (205.186.128.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:02 pm:

Before this subject is thru:

Most of everyone's posts that I have read here on SOULFUL DETROIT, I have enjoyed. Many have recognized the contributions blacks have made to Soul music and all other forms, and I thank them. I was of the mind that this topic was about the contributions that blacks made, and of course � we know what contributions others made to all forms. There is nothing wrong in identifying and honoring those contributions made by black people � as it pertains to the creative force. Again - my main reason for jumping in on this subject was to express that Soul music, as it relates to black singers and musicians sprung out of the Spirituals that black Africans sang and the spirituals sprung from their Southern experiences.

Many folks of all colors -creeds and races have also contributed to the music called Soul - but culturally - only the black man and woman created it. I don�t think we�d be here at SOULFUL DETROIT it that was not true. Would we? Why is there some now wanting to put the term Soul Music under Rock? Should we now tell the folks that sing Folk & Country music that what they created will be from now on listed under - Rock?

Whether anyone wants to get it or not - people are different culturally, and for the most part. Many cultures still choose to separate - be separate and enjoy their own heritage - and/or culture. Who are any of us to tell folks that they have to mesh and mix their cultures to extinction - which in some cases (Cultures)defines them and their ancestry?

There is no question that we all are from the human race - and yet - we are still singled out, separated and placed into groups. It matters little to the powers that be and scientists and the like, how close in match our DNA is. Hell we are barely separated from an ape's DNA. So no matter how true it is to point out that we are all from the human race - here in America and elsewhere all over the world, Race matters and still distinguishes. I only bring this up to point out cultural differences.

Finally - I agree w/Isaiah about David. Not one time have I felt that he didn't get it? Not one time have I felt that he didn't feel for black people in America? If he didn't - we wouldn't be here. Just by his starting this website - he has issued his praise and acknowledgement of the contributions of blacks here in America and Detroit have made, and as it pertains to music and probably many other things. And I say this - not to say that others don't get it - but I wished to praise David for providing us this forum. In doing so - he is not only honoring the ones that came before us - he is honoring us all. There is no honor when someone else unintentionally though it may seem try to suppress what another will find a sense of honor and pride in.

My bottom line is - no one can take away my desire to honor any and all achievements and contributions that my cultural ancestors and fellow black brothers and sisters have made and given on and to this country/continent and any others.

I already said to Isaiah that I did not agree w/him telling others how they may think and feel in my first post. And I don't think any one of us should be or sound condescending towards another. There are no percentages in it for me to be that a way. I am just trying to be honest. And in doing so - I have never had to insult - put down or drag another down to prove any point(s) I wish to make. I am too confident in my own skin to stoop so low. And I'm not saying anyone esle here is doing that. I am just speaking about little old i - and the big I in Me.

Btw David - I plan on sending in a check soon.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:03 pm:

Isaiah:
I've read Stu's posts ever since I started visiting the Forum last year. If there is anyone who has given credit where it is properly due it is him. He is probably one of the most outspoken posters in the Forum when it comes down to the history of soul and R&B. He certainly knows where it comes from and how it has progressed.

Soul, R&B, Gospel, Jazz, Blues were created by Blacks here in the USA. But, the music wasn't exclusive to Blacks (you just can't keep a joyous noise to yourself, to paraphrase a line from the church). These genres grew musically and artisically because of contributions from people of different racial backgrounds. Same with Classical music - it may have been created in Europe but the contributions made by not only Leontyne Price and Marian Anderson but by Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton and George Gershwin (many of their works are considered classical)helped that genre grow musically and artistically.

Stu, Ralph, Sue and others have never denied where R&B, Soul, etc. came from - they'd be the first to admit it. But if you were to say that the contributions from Steve Cropper, Donald "Duck" Dunn, Wayne Jackson, Joe Messina, Bob Babbitt, Bobby Eli, Linda Creed, Ron Miller, Bryan Wells, Gerry Mulligan, Rhodes/Chalmers/Rhodes,John Hammond Sr.,George ("Porgy & Bess") Gershwin, Lieber & Stoller, the Fania All-Stars (Ray Barretto, Willie Colon), Tito Puente and others are not significant in the development of the genres created by "those who are darker than blue" (forgive me, Curtis), then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

HEY TLC!!!...WHEN SOMEONE CALLS ME "UNSAVORY"...AND ACCUSES ME OF FALSE INSINUATIONS" AND WRITING "REVISIONIST HISTORY"...THEY HAD BETTER BE PREPARED TO BACK UP WHAT THEY SAY!!!...I SPENT TOO MANY DAYS MARCHING AND PROTESTING FOR *EVERYONE* IN OUR SOCIETY TO HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR SOME JERK-OFF TO FALSLY ACCUSE ME OF ANYTHING!!!...SO ISAIAH...BRING ON THE FACTS...OR YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY!!!...STUBASS

By TLC (172.155.16.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

Let it go Stu.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

Stu:
Read my post, amigo - I've got your back.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SD DA (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:12 pm:

why should Stu let it go?, Isaia was able to ramble on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on!!

By SB (205.186.128.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:15 pm:

KevGo - you may have those kinds of issues w/Isaiah, and that is your choice.

But can we not at least agree that Africans made the music that was called Spirituals - and that R&B - Jazz - Blues and Soul sprung from that music. Is that a hard thing to agree to? And if so - then why are we here? I agree that others have contributed to it and we to the music that we did not create. If yours and others issue is that Isaiah doesn't want to credit the ones that contributed years ago, since and do now - then have at him - but my position is and has always been the Creation of it. That honor is bestowed upon my ancestors. Others creations sprung from the originators - did they not?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:16 pm:

TLC:
Stu has every right to vent. His intelligence was insulted and that should not be tolerated by anyone.

Isaiah was allowed to show a hint of anger and no one told him to let it go. Why should Stu?

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By TLC (172.155.16.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:20 pm:

Because it's not good for the forum and Stu is going to raise his blood pressure to the danger level if he keeps this shit up. It's best to just let it go. Stu is arguing with himself, Isaiah isn't even responding.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:20 pm:

THANKS KEV & ALL!!!...I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE DESERVES MY RESPECT...UNTIL THEY DO OR SAY SOMETHING TO LOSE MY RESPECT...WHICH ISAIAH HAS DONE!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:24 pm:

HEY SB!!!...WHAT YOU STATE...WE ALREADY KNOW AND APPRECIATE...SO WHAT IS THE ISSUE THERE???...TLC!!!...ISIAH IS NOT RESPONDING...BECAUSE HE CAN'T BACK UP HIS STATEMENTS...AND DOESN'T HAVE THE HUEVOS TO ADMIT HE'S *DEAD WRONG*!!!...STUBASS

By SB (205.186.128.151) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:33 pm:

Thanks STUBASS. That is and has always been my point. I will go to my death defending it too - don'tchaknow.

STUBASS - in my heart - soul - spirit and mind - I know that you give props to my ancestors and my living and deceased black brothers and sisters everyday on this forum. I thank you for it. Surely you, and all of us - have the right to defend and care about our honor and integrity if we feel that it is under attack. I know I would.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

THANKS MUCH SB!!!...STU

By Soulaholic (68.41.47.183) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:43 pm:

Hello All:

After spending 45 minutes reading this whole thread the following point has been made.

Isaiah started out on the wrong assumption and has been backtracking from the get go to cover his tracks. He first states...( "I believe I took some exception to terms like "soul" and "funk" as hard, fast descriptions of music which comes out of the Black Experience, which is a multi-faceted, multi-cultural, multi-national, and many splendored thing"..) Then goes on to change his position several times to try and make his point.

This was because of how people reacted to his comments. The ability to recognize other individuals imput and their take on the topic has caused the whole thing to fall in on it self. Both sides need to be more open in their communication.

I believe that everyone will agree to a point that Culture is very important when it comes to music. Music is an expression of that culture. But to state that culture is inclusive and is not effected by other cultures is hard to accept.

I believe this thread would work much better if individuals tried to find common ground and understanding about this subject that is very dear to many individuals.

I may not ever be able to understand and I know that I will never be able to relate to the experiences a black person has experienced in their life or their culture, because I am white.

But I am willing to listen to what you have to say and learn from your history and experiences and hopefully respect your triumps and morn your losses, while enjoying your company and gaining respect for what you have accomplished and hope to accomplish.

IMHO

Soulaholic

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:44 pm:

ME AND THE BUNNY RABBITS ARE GOIN HOME,THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS GETTING DANGEROUS,BYE!

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.106.8) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:44 pm:

Isiah,you DID diss Stu,and he's one of the good guys.Have you read some of the earlier posts on this site when more of us Detroit musicians posted.Most of us slowed down posting because of (if you were a tree what kind of music would you like) type crap.

In just about all posts on soul or jazz that delve into the origins, all agree on your posts of it coming from Africa by way of America.

If it weren't for the African-American culture,we would be listening to some pretty bland music in the world now.

The only thing, about this culture thing as opposed to the blood or gene thing.I think culture has a huge impact on a group,no question.

This is what I wonder about: Since Native Americans have been playing drums for 10,000 and more years,why, when Africans are playing the same type of instrument do they have such a way more advanced way of playing.

It may be culture, but I think people that have African genes have a tad bit more, evolution-wise as far as" kickin out the jams" then other ethnic groups.(It may be simplified but I'm sticking with it)
As far as my culture: I'm of Scottish blood,from Inkster,Mi. a very African-American town, raised with,played with, partied with,went on the road with,worked with,African-Americans.At the time some people would always bring up race,but it usually was a white older person or a (don't trust whitey) person.

Detroit was a true example of a melting pot of African,blue-grass,eastern Euopean,and middle eastern music.The African influence is predominent,but because of all the people moving here to work in the auto factories,it couldn't help but kind of get a little mixed. The African style always seemed to rise to the top,gathering a little of this or that on it's way.The cream always rises to the top.

I vowed I wasn't going to get involved with this thread and I'll be a mammy jammer if I didn't open my big-ass mouth

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

Ive been taking a sick day off and come on the forum to see what's up. Lo and behold....First of all, let Stu vent. Why shouldn't he? His whimsical side has always been welcome here but it never was at the expense of his intelligence or vast knowledge of music of all styles. We have learned much from Stu. As far as Isaiah goes, he just got a little tedious if you want my opinion. ( smile)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 05:08 pm:

Soulaholic & Lynn Bruce:
Thank you for the perspectives. My head was starting to spin from all of this.

R&B:
Don't worry...you and the rabbits are safe here.

Ralph:
I'll email you some aspirin. Do you want Bayer or Bufferin?

SB:
To answer your question, as a Black American I will always acknowledge my ancestors and those before me for the gift(s) they created out of their suffering be it spirituals and the offspring thereof. At the same time, contributions were made from different cultures and that cannot be denied.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:36 pm:

Soulaholic, I have never changed my position on a damned thing, nor need I backtrack on a damned thing... You are quoting something I said back in February, which is not a wrong assumption, because it is not an assumption at all... Like I said, I LIVE the culture idiot! I aint gots to assume shit - you do! That is the problem here, you white think you know us backwards, forwards, and in between, simply because you dig the riffs... Well, I'm telling you for the zillionth time, our culture is far more complex than the freakin music which comes out of it... The music aint but a fraction of the culture... Do you understand english, Bloody Englishers! Yo, I think the vast majority of you believe us to be a one dimensional people who could not possibly have a complex thought in our brains... Well, I'll tell you what, that's why you can't get what myself and other African Americans at this thread have tried to get across... I'm frankly sick of your intransigence on this issue... You know, I am going to try to get James Mtume to visit this site... As a great musician and a Pan African thinker I'd like to get his appraisal of what is going on here... And since Bobby Eli posts to this site, would that he would get Kenny Gamble to look in, and see if he'd like to weigh in on this... Since those of you who've taken exception to my posts aint nothin' but a bunch of star gazers anyway, perhaps you'd chill a bit and listen to an Mtume or a Kenny Gamble, both of whom are better qualified to put some perspective on this...

peace and Blessings!
isaiah

By Oh Behave (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

you iz bitter Boy!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:46 pm:

ISAIAH!!!...*ANYONE* IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO PUT PERSPECTIVE ON THIS THAN YOU ARE BRO!!!...HEY...I'M STILL WAITING!!!...STUBASS

By Soulaholic (68.41.47.183) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:19 pm:

Hello Isaiah:

The point I made was that you where jumped on when it was perceived that you made a mistake about "northern soul" and what it meant when you implied that northern cities verse southern cities. That was all.

I asked all involved to take a step back and look at it with calm and clarity. Not insults and hatred.

Then it got out of hand.

I stated I am willing to listen to what you have to say and learn from it, that was all. How I can be accused of obstinacy when that was the first time I posted on this issues is perplexing to me.

Remember that anger blinds the truth.

I am willing to listen to you and what you have to say, but your message is lost in your anger and the driving desire to be right no matter who you fault or insult.

Isaiah, you are so consumed with this that you are not even listening to yourself. The point you make is one that should be made, but how you make your point lacks an semblance of respect for others.

I for one question if your attitude is right for this type of forum?

Conversation is much better than Confrontation.

By Isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:19 pm:

Kev-Go, I believe I made mention of Joe Bataan, Joe Cuba, Jimmy Sabater, the Beatles, the Stones, and Eddie "Bongo" Brown all in the same sentence to convey that I know Alllllllll about the contributions of others, my brother... I also made mention of Jerry Mulligan, Boz Scaggs, and a few others who are NOT African American, but who have made their marks in an essentially Black world... I am not going to apologize for my position on this, or as the propagandists at this board would say, my agenda, because I do have and agenda, and that is to protect the cultural copyrights of African Americans in tact... As an American, I have seen all too often that those things which we have contributed to the world are appropriated, and we are given Black History month to console ourselves... You, Kev-Go, have said that there is no color involved in the music, and as much as I respect you brother, I think that is quite naive for you to say, particularly since you are a D.J.... Black man, come on, now! From freakin' cover records, to race records to pop Motown acts being called soul singers... From African American music getting no play on American Top 40 radio, to having OUR Thang being called Jungle Music, the music of "savages" to all of this phony-assed ONE LOVE shit... Even as we speak, Kev-Go, and the music of our great artists is played on the airwaves all over the world, monster groups like the Moments/Ray, Goodman & Brown have to put out their own cds, man... Why can't these great groups get a freakin recording contract, and yet the Rolling Stones and the Grateful Dead will never have to worry about a recording contract or Eminem..? Because Our stuff has been appropriated and turned into...N'Sync! Man, PLEEEEEEEEZE!(smile!) Who y'all think you bullshittin'?! Not me you aint - and I don't give a damn if you get a thousand negroes to support you in your racism, and revisionist history...

No, Kev-Go, I will not forget that history because those who do are bound to receive the same kick in the ass that all of our great ones have received... I am sure that if Jackie Wilson were alive - the same Jackie Wilson who made Nat Aronow millions, and whose wife could not get a headstone for his grave from this robber, without a radiothon fundraiser - would be giving me a pound on what I am saying now... I am going to drop this issue, and allow the star gazers to get back to what they do best, but before I do, I want to say to those who do understand where I am coming from, I meant no offense to you - wasn't even referring to you - when I talked of folk having superficial conversations about a culture which they know little of... Their responses have proven me right...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:22 pm:

ISAIAH!!!...IF BULLSHIT WERE MUSIC...YOU'D BE "THE KING OF SWING"!!!...STUBASS

By Smokeyfan (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:38 pm:

Here's the poem Smokey Robinson delivered on a recent Def Poetry Jam on the subject of culture. Apologies for the blanked out words, that's the way the poem was printed, on a website. Smokey's talked about this poem in several interviews ...

The Black American

by Smokey Robinson

I love being Black. I love being called Black. I love being an American.
I love being a Black American, but as a Black man in this country I think it's a shame
That every few years we get a change of name.

Since those first ships arrived here from Africa that came across the sea
There were already Black men in this country who were free.
And as for those that came over here on those terrible boats,
They were called *****h and slave
And told what to do and how to behave.

And then master started trippin' and doing his midnight tippin',
Down to the slave shacks where he forced he and Great-Great Grandma to be together,
And if Great-Great Grandpa protested, he got tarred and feathered.


And at the same time, the Black men in the country who were free,
Were mating with the tribes like the Apache and the Cherokee.
And as a result of all that, we're a parade of every shade.
And as in this late day and age, you can be sure,
They ain't too many of us in this country whose bloodline is pure.


But, according to a geological, geographical, genealogy study published in Time Magazine,
The Black African people were the first on the scene,
So for what it's worth, the Black African people were the first on earth
And through migration, our characteristics started to change, and rearrange,
To adapt to whatever climate we migrated to.
And that's how I became me, and you became you.

So, if we gonna go back, let's go all the way back,
And if Adam was Black and Eve was Black,
Then that kind of makes it a natural fact that everybody in America is an African American.

Everybody in Europe is an African European; everybody in the Orient is an African Asian
And so on and so on,
That is, if the origin of man is what we're gonna go on.
And if one drop of Black blood makes you Black like they say,
Then everybody's Black anyway.

So quit trying to change my identity.
I'm already who I was meant to be
I'm a Black American, born and raised.
And brother James Brown wrote a wonderful phrase,
"Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud! Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud!"

Cause I'm proud to be Black and I ain't never lived in Africa,
And 'cause my Great-Great Granddaddy on my Daddy's side did, don't mean I want to go back.
Now I have nothing against Africa,
It's where some of the most beautiful places and people in the world are found.
But I've been blessed to go a lot of places in this world,
And if you ask me where I choose to live, I pick America, hands down.

Now, by and by, we were called Negroes, and after while, that name has vanished.
Anyway, Negro is just how you say "black" in Spanish.
Then, we were called colored, but shit, everybody's one color or another,
And I think it's a shame that we hold that against each other.

And it seems like we reverted back to a time when being called Black was an insult,
Even if it was another Black man who said it, a fight would result,
Cause we've been so brainwashed that Black was wrong,
So that even the yellow ****hs and black ****hs couldn't get along.

But then, came the 1960s when we struggled and died to be called equal and Black,
And we walked with pride with our heads held high and our shoulders pushed back,
And Black was beautiful.

But, I guess that wasn't good enough,
Cause now here they come with some other stuff.
Who comes up with this shit anyway?
Was it one, or a group of *****hs sitting around one day?

Feelin' a little insecure again about being called Black
And decided that African American sounded a little more exotic.
Well, I think you were being a little more neurotic.

It's that same mentality that got "Amos and Andy" put off the air,
Cause' they were embarrassed about the way the characters spoke.
And as a result of that action, a lot of wonderful Black actors ended up broke.
When we were just laughin' and have fun about ourselves.
So I say, "**** you if you can't take a joke."
You didn't see the "Beverly Hillbillies" being protested by white folks.

And if you think that, cause you think that being called African American set all Black people's mind at ease.....

Since we affectionately call each other "*****h",

I affectionately say to you, "*****h Please".

How come I didn't get the chance to vote on who I'd like to be?
Who gave you the right to make that decision for me?
I ain't under your rule or in your dominion
And I am entitled to my own opinion.


Now there are some African Americans here,
But they recently moved here from places like Kenya, Ethiopia, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Zaire.
But, now the brother whose family has lived in the country for generations,
Occupying space in all the locations
New York, Miami, L.A., Detroit, Chicago-
Even if he's wearing a dashiki and sporting an afro.

And, if you go to Africa in search of your race,
You'll find out quick you're not an African American,
You're just a Black American in Africa takin' up space.

Why you keep trying to attach yourself to a continent,
Where if you got the chance and you went,
Most people there wouldn't even claim you as one of them; as a pure bred daughter or son of them.

Your heritage is right here now, no matter what you call yourself or what you say
And a lot of people died to make it that way.
And if you think America is a leader on inequality and suffering and grievin'
How come there so many people comin' and so few leavin'?

Rather than all this 'find fault with America' shit you promotin',
If you want to change something, use your privilege, get to the polls!
Commence to votin'!

God knows we've earned the right to be called American Americans and be free at last.
And rather than you movin' forward progress, you dwelling in the past.
We've struggled too long; we've come too far.
Instead of focusing on who we were, let's be proud of who we are.

We are the only people whose name is always a trend.
When is this shit gonna end?
Look at all the different colors of our skin-
Black is not our color. It's our core.
It's what we been livin' and fightin' and dyin' for.

But if you choose to be called African American and that's your preference
Then I'll give you that reference

But I know on this issue I don't stand alone on my own and if I do, then let me be me
And I'd appreciate it if when you see me, you'd say, "there goes a man who says it loud I'm Black. I'm Black. I'm a Black American, and I'm proud

Cause I love being an American. And I love being Black. I love being called Black.

Yeah, I said it, and I don't take it back.

By Des (81.152.238.63) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:46 pm:

"Peace and blessings" - what crass hypocrisy.
Buddy,you would be dangerous if anyone could now take you seriously.
You don't seem able to understand basic points and you certainly can't make a coherent,consistent argument.

THE TRAGEDY OF ALL THIS IS THAT NO-ONE HAS A GRIPE WITH THE RIGHTEOUS CORE OF YOUR ILL-CONCEIVED POSTS --- YOU JUST WANT TO RUB "WHITES" NOSES IN CYBERSPACE SHIT.

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:54 pm:

Oh my God. Be still my heart. I am in love w/Smokey. And he is so right.

How about the ones that if a black person says that they have Indian blood - some shake their heads at them. When speaking about my Big Ma Hattie the other day and on another thread - why did I leave the fact that she was half Indian. Why or why? Because I knew that some would say that I was fronting. Too bad and too sad.

And folks guess what? Smokey is just too deep - and he echoes so much of what I already knew and felt. Look how light skinned Smokey is. Now we all know he has some white blood - but don't most of us - like he mentioned? 1/8 worth of black blood makes one black. A half black person is still black. Many whites have never given us the permission to claim our white blood or celebrate it - so why do some wonder why we don't mind claiming the black in us - and love it as much as we do?

Smokey - Smokey - Smokey. One of my first posts on this board is where I mentioned James Brown - and his "Say It Loud - I"m Black And I'm Proud." And for many of us - he ain't neva lied.

Now this is the last time I will visit this thread - and God is my witness. After all - Smokey done more than got my point across.

See KevGo - you never said whom the originators were when you posted last. You just mentioned the contribution. But - I ain't mad at 'ya bro. I am still proud of you and I love you. And I love STUBASS - and Ralph - and David and Eli - and all the others. My thing is, we all know that our hearts are big enough to love many.

Finally - thanks Smokeyfan. I love you too.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:08 pm:

VERY NICE SMOKEYFAN!!!...I PERSONALLY APPRECIATE THE TRUTH AND THOUGHTFULLNESS REGARDING THE SENTIMENTS OF YOUR POST!!!...WHILE SOME (WHO SHALL REMAIN NAMELESS) CHOOSE TO LIVE IN THE PAST...THE REAL HOPE FOR OUR NATION IS TO LOOK TO THE FUTURE...TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR US ALL...OR AS CURTIS MAYFIELD SO PROFOUNDLY WROTE..."PEOPLE...MUST PROVE TO THE PEOPLE...A BETTER DAY IS COMING...FOR YOU AND FOR ME...AND WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE EDUCATION...AND LOVE FOR OUR NATION...WE'LL MAKE A BETTER SOCIETY"!!!...I COULDN'T DO BETTER THAN THAT!!!...STUBASS

By Soul Boy (64.236.243.31) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:08 pm:

I am proud to be white!!!!

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:08 pm:

Isaiah;
Despite what you may believe, we don't shy away from topics like this at the forum because we are shallow and superficial and afraid to face some kind of cultural responsibilities. I think the main reason we avoid topics (?) like this is because most of us are honest enough with ourselves to admit that ,(with a couple obvious professional exceptions here), we don't have the chops as writers to tackle the BIG ISSUES. I know I don't and I'm sorry to say with all due respect you don't either. You seem to have some sound ideas but your posts are all over the place. They're so loosely written and your logic is so circular that of course your posts are subject to misinterpretation. Then , of course, someone gets defensive, someone else gets defensive about THAT and semi-articulate posts fly back and forth......this happens from time to time here-don't take it personal.
If your bottom line is "racism is bad" and "African-Americans don't get the credit they deserve as a people" , you're preaching to the choir here ; honest. As I'm sure you know, this website doesn't appear online only throughout the month of February.

Steve K

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:10 pm:

SB,
And I believe that this web-site is dedicated to a universal love for one another no matter what keeps us here, music or otherwise.

By Smokeyfan (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:17 pm:

SB,
Not sure how you can agree with Smokey's poem AND with Isaiah ...but whatever.

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:35 pm:

Ok - now I know I said I was thru - but where Smokeyfan - did I say I agreed w/all Isaiah posted? I certainly agreed w/some of his points and that is no lie. And yes - I definitely agreed w/what Smokey spoke on. Bless his heart. The main thing I took from what Smokey conveyed was this: (And much more)


"But I know on this issue I don't stand alone on my own and if I do, then let me be me
And I'd appreciate it if when you see me, you'd say, "there goes a man who says it loud I'm Black. I'm Black. I'm a Black American, and I'm proud

Cause I love being an American. And I love being Black. I love being called Black.

Yeah, I said it, and I don't take it back."


Now you go thru my posts Smokeyfan - and tell me where I have deviated from the points Smokey made above - for some of them are the ones that I was trying to get across, and especially the point about the black man being the ORIGINATOR of something. Smokey added more - but my main point about what the black man originated had to do w/Music, and the fact that I was proud of that fact, and proud of my ancestors and black brothers and sisters.

Believe me - in no way do I feel that I have to defend myself to you as it pertains to whatever I agreed with as it relates to what Isaiah said. I think most here got my point - and if you didn't then ....whatever.

Finally - maybe you need to go back and read what Smokey said. But never the less - and just the same - I still thank you for posting it - for I saved it to a word file.

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:44 pm:

Btw - I knew I was on to something when I stated that I wouldn't mind be stranded on a desert island w/Smokey Robinson. See - my mind don't fool me sometimes. He could quote me his poetry until the sun came back up - and again - and again - and again. I'm in love. I do declare!

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:01 pm:

Quite an interesting subject, but I don't like being turned inside out on the world wide web. I knew it would cause a big one. That's why I said: "It is too complex to discuss on Soulful Detroit."

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:31 pm:

Isaiah:
First of all, get your names right. Jackie Wilson's manager was Nat Tarnopol, not Aranow. And there was no headstone for JW for various reasons until 1988 (Jackie died in 1984).

Second of all, Ray Goodman & Brown do have a record deal with Orpheus Records which is run by the Higgins folks - and don't get me started on the crap they put Freddie Jackson, Lillo Thomas and Melba Moore through during their heyday. They squandered on paying royalties, bullied their artists and left Melba with a huge bill when their production outfit shut down (she was one of the investors). A sad example of Black-On-Black Crime in the music industry. Ask any of the artists mentioned what they went through with Hush Productions and they'll tell you - one Hush artist told me that he would have to cash his royalty check the day he received it or the money to cover it would be gone the next day(Melba's trials was well documented in the Daily News - you can pull it up in their archives on line if you like).

I never said music was colorless. If it were, there would be nothing to define it. You take my words completely out of context. I said it before and I will repeat it - many cultures have contributed to various genres of music since the originators created it, resulting in different flavors and textures. I always gave recognition to where genres of music originated from and always will. The difference is that I don't project my views upon anyone or to put it bluntly shove it down their throats.

I don't need to wear my ethnicity on my sleeve nor do I need a mirror to remind me of where I came from, thank you. When you take a deep breath and relax, we can hopefully have a meaningful discussion that many could learn from.

SB:
Spare me the patronization because it's obvious that you too hadn't read my posts prior to the one where I had to spell it out to you in plain English "where I'm coming from." You & Isaiah are a sad reminder of the radicals who would pull the "I'm Blacker than thou" crap when I was young. Both of you are better than that. I'm not mad at anyone because as the late Reverend Goins would say, "Dogs get mad - people get angry." I'm not angry because I try to keep things on the up & up. We can agree to disagree but if you're gonna play the "baiting game" to see if I'm a "real brother", don't waste your time or mine.

Respectfully submitted,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By medusa (66.73.8.49) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:37 pm:

Thanx, Alrighty Then, Amen...I Really believe we all got the point, or should I say the POINTS.
This has been one helluva topic, but I think we accomplished a lot.
I do appreciate David 4 letting us 'Rap' about one of the (most dangerous) subjects. Now, since we all got the point, whether we agree or not, we should move on. In the meantime, Soulfinger, I don't think U know me well enough ...and David, the White Guy U were referred 2, never complained, (Thanx David), So, until David says I have 2 leave, I have no plans of leaving. When/if U get uncomfortable about certain things that were said on this Topic, maybe it's time 2 really do some 'Soul' Searching, and ask the question "Why did this Guy Isaiah make me feel uncomfortable"??? and check out your answer, then will U see the real "you" I understand that one can't agree with everything that's posted, maybe this was meant 2 B addressed 4 some reason. Some of U really suprised me by showing how uneasy U became when Isaiah had his say, and some of us agreed...I still Love Soul Music. I have no hard feelings 2ward anyone here, this was good 4 us all, it brought out a lot of gut feelings. (good & bad).
Don't kill the messenger, but check out the message, (there's still a message N ALL music). Isaiah understands that Black People really never had anything 2 call our own, but our Song & Dance and he didn't want 2 loose what we have left and I can understand it very well. So, share the Pie among friends, but don't 4get the Baker.
Isaiah, we hear U Loud & Clear.
...and 2 those that Isaiah made uncomfortable, just do me a BIG favor, as the Elgins would say, "Put YOurself In My Place For Just A Little While", see if U can stand the BS that we as a People have been through and still goin' through. This America was built on the blood, sweat,tears, moans, groans, cries,unanswered prayers & songs of our ancestors. So Y not hold on 2 the essence of our being, something as Passionate as 'Soul Music'?
Again Thanx David and the Staff of SoulfulDetroit, 4 giving us the time 2 Express and 2 take us 2 another deminsion of Soul Music~~~So Let The Music Play~~~

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

KevGo - I was not trying to patronize you. And don't group me w/anyone as it pertains to the question I asked you. What I asked you had nothing to do w/what Isaiah and you were dealing with. I posed a question to you because I care about what you think. I asked you this:

(And you never answered as in agreeing with me or not) (I addressed this to you - and not you - me and Isaiah) (I to this day have never read where Isaiah dittoed what my point was) (I can stand alone - and have my own questions and answers) (I was trying to rap one on one with you) (So don't jump on me and think or proclaim that me and Isaiah are in cohoots together)

I asked you:

"But can we not at least agree that Africans made the music that was called Spirituals - and that R&B - Jazz - Blues and Soul sprung from that music. Is that a hard thing to agree to? And if so - then why are we here? I agree that others have contributed to it and we to the music that we did not create. If yours and others issue is that Isaiah doesn't want to credit the ones that contributed years ago, since and do now - then have at him - but my position is and has always been the Creation of it. That honor is bestowed upon my ancestors. Others creations sprung from the originators - did they not?"

Again - ORIGINATION is the key word I wantd to get across - and I apologize if I didn't.

KevGo - you don't have to answer me. I know your true heart. But please don't come on here and say that I am against you either, and that I agree w/what Isaiah wrote to you. Read what I wrote above and you'll see all that I asked of you, and it was between you and I - and no one else. I don't need anyone but God for my back. And I'm sorry if you think that I think this:

"I'm Blacker than thou" crap when I was young."

Now where in my question above did you arrive at that? Or is it my entire heartfelt position that you disagree with? If it is - then say so.

I will not be convinced by anyone that I am wrong in what I've written since this thread started. I don't think I have disrespected anyone by my proclaiming that I am proud of where many facets of the music attributed to black people came from. I am proud and I am not ashamed of that pride.

And that is truly all I have tried to convey.

Peace and love.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:02 pm:

Medusa - I believe you left everyone speechless.

Now ya'll put that in your pocket, and save it. :o)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:06 pm:

Medusa:
We Black folks never "lost" this music because the originators and the contributors made sure that is was never lost in the first place.

Through oral history, ranging from the griots & in Africa and the Indian tribesmen to the documentaries aired on televison and radio as well as concerts we attend, the originators' wonderful inventions we call spirituals/soul music/R&B/jazz has been preserved in the present for future generations to learn from. We all have partaken from the pie called Motown but have we forgotten Motown's bakers?

We never had anything to call our own? Like hell we didn't - look at the way Stevie Wonder dresses for example. The robes he wears are based on what our ancestors wore in Africa. As a child, my mother dressed me in dashikis. Who invented that? Mathematics may have come from Egypt but where is Egypt? Who invented the traffic light? Who came up with the system of blood donation and blood banks only to die from auto injuries that weren't attended to because no white hospital or ambulance wanted to touch him because he was Black? These are examples of what we as Blacks created that fall under our ownership yet is shared with the world.

The music - from Gospel & spirituals to rock and soul. What do you think Jimi Hendrix & Sly Stone were telling us in the 1960s & 1970s? Rock music came from US! Today, Lenny Kravitz is waving that same banner. Chuck Berry & Little Richard are called Rock & Roll's founding fathers - hello! Hugh Masekela's "Grazing In The Grass" is a great example of bringing together music created in our ancestors homeland (Africa) with the music created by the offspring (jazz/soul).

Instead of focusing on what was "lost" and what we must hold onto before we lose it, how about we research and claim what we as Blacks created and claim the ownership of such inventions and contributions. Things that we have shared with the world since.

And if this is too sugar-coated for some out here, I make no apologies.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

SB:
When I say Gospel I also meant Spirituals. You even made an equation of the two.

I said that Gospel came from Blacks and the Black experience. Said that over and over and over until I had to spell it out because you weren't getting what I said from the git-go.

End of conversation.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:24 pm:

http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/ourlinks.html

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:27 pm:

KevGo.

Here's what you said:

"As far as I'm concerned even though R&B and soul has its roots in Gospel music from the Black church, it took a melting pot of people from different backgrounds to make this music as special as it is."

I said that IMO - "Spirituals", started it all and that "Gospel" & "Church", are also just words like "Soul", is. But then again "Spirituals", is just a word too - so we do agree after all.

And ok then - end of conversation.

Nite.

By Vonnie (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:30 pm:

Amen Brother Kev

Thank you for your controlled and VERY insightful post. Thank you for making me feel proud, your sugar-coating is real sweet.

Vonnie

By medusa (66.73.8.49) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:34 pm:

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin,

We've been through the African Dress, Culture, Slavery etc, now it's back 2 the music.
I'm quite informed of my heritage. Just let it go KevGo, we all got all we need 4 now.
and yes, I know allabout the traffic Lights, but this is about Soul Music and all 2 do with it. Anyone can put on a Dashiki or African Garb, or go 2 Egypt (Africa), but it's deeper than that. I'm much older than U R, I could tell U things about Black People that would make your head swim.
As far as Black People owning anything,I wouldn't offend myself frist of all. ok, Let's put it like this, a lot of us comsume more than anyone. I don't want 2 get N2 an argument with U, this case has already been discussed. It's no secret of where we REALLY stand ( our status) on this Planet, at this space & time~but if U know who U really R, then this space & time doesn't matter anyway~~~So Let The Music Play~~~

By SB (205.187.255.160) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:42 pm:

AHHHHHH. Thanks Sis Detroit - and good nite.

By isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:47 pm:

Stu Bass, I don't respect you, or any of those doing the cheerleading for you papa... Apologize to your redneck ass..? You are foolish beyond belief! I came to this discussion proud,and unabashed, and I will leave it without kissing any man's ass - as regards the culture my ancestors created... You got that wannabe Stu..?

The real reason this discussion degenerated into this madness is not of my making, but those who do not want to deal with the essence of what I inquired of them, and that is why are there no discussions of African American Culture at this website... I have repeatedly said that our culture entails far more than music(dance movement, performance style, language, etc.,.)and folk still come back talking about they don't get my point... You don't get the point because you don't want to get the point(smile!)... To reduce African American culture to soul music is not only a monumental insult, it further reinforces the facts as I have stated them, and that is that most of you are only superficially familiar with our culture - like the young, suburban white boys who dress in hiphop gear, memorize rap lyrics, and think they down... They think its a wrap because they got the external trappings of a segment of how we live our lives... That's you, from England no less, in a nutshell... How dare you ask me for an apology after you hysterically compared me with Al Campanis..? You proved how freakin' PHONY you are to me with that post, How much of a petty assed anachronism you are... I hope you live a long time waiting for me to apologize to you, because it would mean I went completely crazy...

It is YOU, Stu Bass, who is responsible for all of this, because of your arrogance, your talking down to folk whom you don't agree with you, your veritable hysteria over my audacity to lay claim to that which is historically and culturally the copyright of African Americans... This is classic British and American arrogance... Right now, as we speak, the government of Benin is attempting to have it's stolen statuary and artistic artifacts returned from British museums, and rather than turn over what does not belong to them, the British are fighting tooth and nail to retain these stolen works of art and history... Now, this is analogous to what is going on at this thread, Stu Bass and Supporters... Your inability to relinquish what you feel is YOUR copyright on our culture... I tell you what, read Alan Lomax's work, Stu Bass, you might better be able to commisserate with someone who looks like you, but does not share your views... But, please, drop the idea that I owe you or anyone else an apology for expressing my views... That is flat out a phony and disingenuous request - and it shall go ignored!

peace and blessings!
Isaiah

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:52 pm:

CLASS ACT KEV!!!...ANYONE WHO HAS PARTICIPATED ON THIS THREAD HAS CERTAINLY LEARNED SOMETHING AS MED SAYS!!!...I THINK WE ALL KNOW BY NOW THAT BLACK AMERICANS CREATED...NURTURED...EXPOSED THEIR INNER FEELINGS...AND HELPED PROMULGATE WHAT WE KNOW TODAY AS "SOUL MUSIC"...AS WELL AS OTHER FORMS OF MUSIC!!!...NOW MY NEXT QUESTION!!!...WHO THE HELL ON THIS FORUM DIDN'T KNOW *THAT* BEFORE THIS THREAD WAS STARTED!!!... LIKE ISAIAH SENT FREAKING LIGHTBULBS OFF INTO MY HEAD WITH HIS DISJOINTED RAMBLINGS!!!...AS FOR DISCUSSING THIS PHENOMONON ON THE SOULFUL DETROIT WEBSITE...IT'S TOTALLY APPROPRIATE...AND IT SHOULDN'T MAKE ANYONE UNCOMFORTABLE TO DISCUSS THIS TOPIC...AND OTHER ISSUES RELATING TO RACISM...DISCRIMINATION...AND CULTURE...ESPECIALLY AS RELATES TO MUSIC!!!...THE *ONLY* TIME THAT I BECAME "UNCOMFORTABLE" IN THIS DISCUSSION...WAS WHEN SOME JERK STARTED ACCUSING ME OF STATING POSITIONS THAT I NEVER DID...AND FAILED TO COME UP WITH *ONE* EXAMPLE OF WHAT HE ACCUSED ME OF...AND I'M STILL WAITING!!!...ONCE THIS FOOL COULDN'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAID...HE THEN BECAME A SELF PROFESSED "GURU"...WHO...ACCORDING TO HIMSELF...IS CAPABLE OF TELLING EVERYONE WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY *THINKING*...ALL...OF COURSE...TO FURTHER HIS OWN PHILOSOPICAL AGENDA!!!...THIS IDIOT...AND I DON'T LIKE NAME CALLING...BUT THIS MORON REALLY DESERVES IT...NEVER LEARNED TO "FADE GRACEFULLY"...AND IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE ADDAGE..."YOU CAN ONLY BE THOUGHT OF AS A FOOL IF YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT...BUT WHEN YOU OPEN IT...YOU REMOVE ANY REASONABLE SHADOW OF A DOUBT"...AND HE SHOULD HAVE REALLY KEPT HIS PIEHOLE SHUT...OR OFFERED UP APOLOGIES!!!...THIS IS THE TYPE OF PERSON...WHO RELISHES CAUSING SHIT BETWEEN PEOPLE...BECAUSE HE IS UNCOMFORTABLE INSIDE HIS OWN SKIN...AND ONLY STIRS THE POT OF INTOLORANCE AND MISUNDERSTANDING!!!...ISAIAH MY MAN!!!...GROW THE F&*$ UP AND PUT YOUR MISPLACED ENERGY INTO HELPING PEOPLE GET ALONG AND FURTHER UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER!!!...YOU'LL BE A LOT LESS BITTER PERSON...I PROMISE!!!...STUBASS

By the count (69.14.113.157) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:59 pm:

Hey Isaiah,Save your breath,you'll need it to blow up your date this week-end.
"COUNT"

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

AND TO THINK I POSTED MY LAST REMARKS *BEFORE* I READ THIS LAST PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!...JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO USE A DICTONARY DUDE...DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE PROSE YOU WRITE MAKE ANY SENSE!!!...FIRST OF ALL...THIS IS PRIMARILY A *MUSIC* FORUM...AND WHILE I AGREE THAT SOCIETAL ISSUES OF THE DAY WHICH RELATE TO THE TOPIC OF *MUSIC* ARE APPROPRIATE...THEY MUST MAKE SENSE AND ENLIGHTEN...NOT JUST OVERSTATING THE OBVIOUS (NO-ONE KNEW THAT BLACK PEOPLE CREATED SOUL MUSIC...TOOK A GENIUS TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT)BUT USING THAT INITIAL PREMISE TO SPEW VENOM AND HATE!!!...THERE ARE PLENTY OF WEBSITES THAT ARE GEARED TOWARDS THE SOCIOLOGICAL ISSUES OF THE DAY...BUT I FEEL THAT YOU'D BE JUST AS OBNOXIOUS ON THOSE SITES AS YOU HAVE IN MY OPINION BEEN ON THIS ONE!!!...YOU CERTAINLY DON'T KNOW ME...AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO "ASSUME" WHAT YOU WOULD TAKE PLEASURE IN ME BEING...SO THATS YOUR PROBLEM BUBBA!!!...LIKE I SAID...GROW THE F&#* UP!!!...STUBASS

By Isaiah (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

Kev-Go, that's what you are there for, to get the names right... I only know from what Mrs. Wilson conveyed to the audience during that radiothon. I have no reason to believe she was lying... Now, if you will be forthright and audacious enough to address the historical facts of our music being called Jungle Music, and the music of savages, and now everybody and their mama is laying claim to it... Be as fastidious with those facts, my brother... And as for your riffs on SB, brother, that was uncalled for... No one, least of all me, questions your Blackness, man - unless you do yourself... So that is completely diversionary, because she happened to agree with SOME of my points... I think we all as African Americans need to keep perspective, and refrain from this nihilistic feeding on one another while massa laughs at us all... That is not what this discussion was supposed to be about... As you said to me, you do not agree with me on all of my points, but you respect my love for the culture... well, brother, if it means anything to you, I'm fine with that... Peace Go with You, Kev...

Isaiah

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:15 pm:

WillieLynchAJobWellDone.

By Smokeyfan (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:20 pm:

So come on, Isaiah,

You're ignoring Smokey's poem. Why? Does it make you "uncomfortable"?

By Observing This Mess (172.154.60.74) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:35 pm:

STUBASS WHAT IS YOU AND YOUR CHEERLEADERS MAJOR MALFUNCTION? YOU ACCUSE ME OF HAVING ADS WHEN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK IN ANY MIRROR AND SEE THE REAL ADS SUFFERER. YOU CALL ME NAMES! I NEVER CALLED YOU A NAME. FROM YOUR POSTS I STATED MY OPINION OF YOUR POLITICAL LEANING, WHICH I FEEL IS FAR RIGHT OF LESTER MADDOX'S. YOU'RE A STAUNCH BUSH SUPPORTER, A WAR HAWK, MY COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG GUY. NOW WE'RE SUPPOSE TO BELIEVE YOU MARCHED DURING THE CIVIL WAR PROTESTS? PU-LEEZ! ON WHOSE SIDE DID YOU MARCH?

By HEAD CHEERLEADER (198.81.26.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:52 pm:

You go BOY BASS!!

By Edgar (200.46.132.103) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:58 pm:

Stubass, I think you are obnoxious too. Long ago when we discussed about the war in Irak you "spew (neo-fascist) venom"... since then I decided not to read your posts, even if they are called funny.

By Messy Mess (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:05 am:

Isaiah really did not enlighten anyone here..
not a bit.....

he's a shit disturber

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:11 am:

IT'S YOUR THING EDGAR..."DO WHAT YOU WANNA DO"!!!...AT LEAST YOU DIDN'T ACCUSE ME OF ATTRIBUTING STATEMENTS TO YOU THAT YOU NEVER MADE...SO "ROCK ON" AND ENJOY!!!...AS ARISTOTLE ONCE OBSERVED..."FUN IS FUN TO HAVE"!!..BY THE WAY...IT'S IRAQ...NOT IRAK (AS IN WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU LOSE A GAME OF POOL)!!!...THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO EXPRESS YOUR THOUGHTS!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:24 am:

OBSERVER!!!...IT MAY SURPRISE YOU...AND IT'S REALLY NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS...BUT MY VOTE WENT TO GORE IN 2000. I HAVE BEEN A LIFELONG DEMOCRAT...AND HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC SOLUTIONS!!!...I DO HOWEVER...SUPPORT WHAT BUSH HAS DONE IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND THE IRAQ SITUATION...LIKE IT OR NOT...WHILE MY DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS TURNED INTO A BUNCH OF WHINEY...CHEESE EATIN...ISOLATIONISTS...CERTAINLY NOT WHAT JFK HAD IN MIND!!!...THAT ASIDE...SINCE YOU'RE DEAD WRONG ABOUT MY POLITICS...IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU'RE DEAD WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE YOU'VE STATED???...AS SOCRATES ONCE STATED..."GET A LIFE"!!!...STUBASS

By Score Keeper (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:36 am:

The Score of The hour:

Bass 1

Others 0


why the personal attacks on Bass Ya'll???
He's not the enemy here people..

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.29) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:52 am:

Talk about a perfect example of how we got into this stupid Iraq mess...

We have a choice. We can identify with who we ARE which includes each of The One God's children or we can limit our identity to who we think we ARE NOT and be isolated and at war with our brothers and sisters because Satin's lie tells us we occupy a fictitious moral high-ground.

The degree to which I can identify with all of who I am, INCLUDING evil is the degree to which I can own it and then rid humanity of it rather than giving power to evil by closing my eyes to a part of who I really am.

Because God is great, peace is power. May peace be with us all!

By HORSE (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 03:25 pm:

Isaiah,

Once you take a minute to stop revelling in all your blackness and come to the realization that a man IS A MAN, first and foremost, before he is a black man, white man, red man or yellow man. THEN ONLY will you be able to communicate effectively without looking through the eye of one who continues to promote segregation.

HORSE

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

Horse:
Thank you for the wise words. That's all I will say for now.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By R&B (138.238.41.30) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 03:59 pm:

THE BUNNY RABBITS WANNA KNOW IS IT SAFE TO COME OUT NOW?

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

Carrots for all.

By ONE LOVE (64.236.243.31) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 04:15 pm:

Hores is The big winner today
Kudos to Horse..

ONE LOVE YA'LL

By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.10) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 04:15 pm:

Isaiah:

If there's a problem here, I think that it has to do with generalities. You have a big thing about being a 'people'. I respect individuals for what they do and who they are. I have no truck with generalities and no particular affinity for someone because he or she is a colour. I don't think of classical music having been created by 'white' people. I know a huge number of white people who couldn't create a thought. I did think we'd come some way from thinking in these terms. People of African origin have been short-changed on their real achievements in Europe and the States. I can see how that would make all this important. If white Europeans clung together because of some kind of physical similarity, we'd be holding hands with Hitler and Stalin.

Forty years ago America was the cradle of a movement for peace and brotherhood across the races, regardless of creed and origins. I'm hanging on to that.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

R&B:
Ehhh....(chomp-chomp)..What's up, doc?
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By R&B (138.238.41.30) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 07:41 am:

HEY KEV,WHAT'S UP BUDDY,MAN IT WAS GETTIN HOT ROUND HERE THE OTHER DAY,I THOUGHT I HAD FOUND THE JERRY SPRINGER SIGHT,THE BUNNY RABBITS WERE READY TO [HOP}ON THE FIRST THING SMOKIN BACK TO THE CABBAGE PATCH!WHEW!!

By Larry (68.164.130.243) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:04 am:

I wrote the following days ago, but didn�t post it. Now I feel compelled to if only to make my small voice known.

1) I see nothing wrong with Pride. I understand and am sensitive to anyone who might say things like �these are my people you�re all talking about, my heritage, my race, my culture.� �Your career or love was built upon this�. �Your talent (while all yours) was inspired by it or maybe copied directly from it�. �So while you grab props and speak your mind, remember to give it back to the Originals too�. �Better to give than receive�.

2) This is a White led world and those with utmost power will keep it that way. When we replace love of G-d with love of Money is Power creates Segregation is evil. For multi-millions the seduction of money is complete and that�s sad.

3) I�m white. My life would be harder if I weren�t.

4) Only someone who�s black can really talk about the black experience.

5) I see nothing wrong with Pride.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 02:08 pm:

R&B - This is not a joke. Additionally, to compare someone's honest opinion in this sensitive subject to that of Jerry Springer is disrespect.

By Isaiah (205.188.209.109) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:06 pm:

Larry, you deserve props not so much for being able to SEE things from the perspective of others, but for doing something few folks did during this discussion, and that is you took the time to THINK about what I, and many others were saying... Mad Proper Respect to you, Larry, and all of those of all ethnic backgrounds who Think before they open their mouths, or pick up a pen, to harrass, harangue, repress people and ideas they do not understand...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:10 pm:

HEY SIS I APOLOGISE,BUT WHAT I MEANT WAS TEMPERS WERE FLARING LIKE I HAVE NEVER SEEN HERE I MADE A COMPARISON TO SPRINGER,AGAIN MY APOLOGIES TO ANY WHO WERE OFFENDED.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:16 pm:

Thanks R&B. Apologies accepted. PEACE!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:24 pm:

R&B:
I got what you meant. No offense taken.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By JB (63.88.160.101) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:26 pm:

SOUL MUSIC, is it a polka, yes to the polish people,klazmeric yes to the eastern jews Opera yes to the people of Italy, R&B to the blacks yes,
We all have a spot in our harts and soul for different tpyes of music, but on this forum we like"old School R&B".The people who made the music,were all colors, SO Isiah relax and enjoys the music thats what its all about
P.S."we all stole the same 7 notes from Bethoven" Biily Joel

By Isaiah (205.188.209.109) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

Larry, the ultimate respect is due you based on the fact that do did something few involved in this discusion did, and that was THINK! Many of the dissenting responses to this thread were based on the responder's resistance to the whole idea I would Dare to express the notion that African American Culture, not only, produced and nurtured this baby from infancy to adulthood, and beyond, but has far more to offer than soul music, or funk music, or any other kind of music... The notion of culture entails more than a people's folk music, but is the entirety of their life's experiences, their life's story, and many of the White folks at this board don't want to hear about that... "...just make the music, and shut the fuck up boy", right Stu Bass..? "Smilin' Faces Sometimes pretend to be your friend..."

Well, inspite all of the pious patronising and profane harangue that went on it this thread, I will remember the thoughtful insights of you, Larry, SB, Medusa, Common, Sis Detroit, LostinSoul, and Bankhouse Dave, and continue to post when the feeling moves me... I will never let a screaming mob intimidate me, nor should anyone at this site fear the mobsters and gangsters, whom life has taught me, are punks when they're all alone in room wit'cha,(smile!)... To All Posters, Speak your Mind, no matter how hysterical and frenzied these cowards get... Know that a Great Fighter always keeps a cool head... Thank you, Larry, SB, Medusa, Common, Sis Detroit, Edgar, SmokeyFan (I Dug da Poem, I dug it, SmokeyFan!) and others for, both, your critcism and support...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:37 pm:

HEY LARRY!!!...APPRECIATE YOUR WELL THOUGHT OUT AND SINCERE FEELINGS...HOWEVER...I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR PREMISE THAT MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!!!...IN TRUTH...*LACK OF MONEY* IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL (SORRY REV IKE)!!!...YOU CAME FROM THE SAME GENERATION AS ME...AND WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE WE LOOKED UP TO DURING THAT ERA!!...JERRY RUBIN...TOM HEYDEN...BOBBY SEALE...JESSEE JACKSON!!!...AND WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE...WHO TOLD US THAT MONEY SUCKED!!!...THEY ARE NOW "WALL STREET JERRY"...TOM (RICH CAT LIVIN IN SANTA MONICA OFF EX-WIFE JANES CASH) HEYDEN...MEGAMILLIONAIRE JESSIE (WHO RUNS TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET WHEN TWO OR THREE BLACK YOUTH APPROACH AT NIGHT)...BOBBY (MAKE GOOGLES OF CASH WITH YOUR COOKBOOKS) SEALE!!!...QUESTION...WERE THEY PIMPIN US THEN...OR ARE THEY PIMPIN US NOW...OR DID THEY JUST GROW UP???...I WORK DAMN HARD FOR MY MONEY...AND IT'S NOBODYS BUSINESS TO TELL ME I SHOULD MOVE FROM MY THREE STORY TOWNHOME TO TWO STORIES...TRADE IN MY CONVERTIBLE ROADSTER FOR SOME ECONOBOX...OR BUY MY CLOTHES AT SEARS INSTEAD OF MY TAILOR J DAVID!!!...ITS USUALLY PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE SHIT...THAT LIKE TO TELL THOSE WHO DO HAVE SHIT...HOW TO SPEND THEIR SHIT...UNTIL THOSE PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE SHIT...GET SOME SHIT...AND DON'T WANT ANYONE TO TELL THEM HOW TO SPEND THEIR SHIT!!!...I PAY MY TAXES... ANBD GIVE TO CHARITY...ONLY STIPULATION...*I* PICK THE CHARITY!!!...IF EVERY PARENT WOULD INSIST THAT THEIR KIDS SPEND AT LEAST TWO AND A HALF HOURS STUDYING AND DOING HOMEWORK...THEN ANY KID ALIVE TODAY COULD HAVE WHAT I HAVE AND WANT!!!...SO PLEASE LET ME HAVE MY TOYS!!!...I WORK DAMN HARD FOR THEM!!!...THANKS...STUBASS

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:39 pm:

BY THE WAY...SINCE I ONLY GAVE MEN AS EXAMPLES...LETS NOT FORGET THE WOMEN OF THAT ERA AND CULTURE!!!...WHILE THE CULTURE MAY CONTINUE...BIRKINSTOCKS AND VOLVO'S AIN'T CHEAP!!!...STU

By Des (81.152.238.36) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:41 pm:

You ever heard Marlena Shaws' version of "Go Away Little Boy"?......

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:56 pm:

YO DES!!!...WHO/YOU???...STU(RHYMIN SIMON)BASS

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 07:27 pm:

PS TO ISAIAH!!!...I NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WOULD CALL YOU "BOY" SO LONG AS YOU'RE OVER 18!!!...IDIOT IS MORE LIKE IT!!!...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:26 pm:

Isaiah,
I may regret later on what I think I'm about to say, but I need to step out of my moderator's shoes for a moment and speak to you from my heart.

You sanctimonious son of a bitch! You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Oh, you're real good at all your peace and love bull-shit, but the reality I read is your a miserable asshole with too much time to think about things you don't have a real clue on.

Do you think you are the only one who has ever experienced a little discrimination? In spite of all the rhetotic of our contributions, Italians carry around a little grief also. If you're a Sicilian add 10% to some of the grief.

My grand parents came here to seek a better life for their families and were welcomd with a lot of hostility and distrust. Everyone " knew " Sicilians carried knives.
forget all the great Italian artists and musicians and the Enrico Fermis, hell...we're all " connected ".

I had my own experiences a couple of times with the families of a couple of girls I was interested in through my life. I was a little " dark ". But you know something Isaiah? Life goes on. I know it's a cliche pal, but we're all in this together. I resent your insulting, patronizing attitude to the good people of this forum. I had mentioned earlier that I thought you would be best served on a forum dealing with these issues that you're all hung up about. I invite you to PLEASE go to these other forums and leave us to do what we like doing, in the spirit of harmony that exists at Soulful Detroit. Please Isaiah. just leave.

My apologies to any forum members I have offended with my language and attitude. I do have my breaking points and I needed to vent.

Ralph

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:06 pm:

OK GUYS, I'VE HAD IT WITH THIS DISCUSSION.....
....i've just spent an hour reading this thing top to bottom. One thing I love about this place is that people generally respect one another, and it's not happening here. Ralph, would you consider closing this thread? It's degenerated into name calling with very little educational,informational or entertainment value.

Doug Shirk

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

I APPRECIATE RALPH...AS DOES...I'M SURE ALL FORUM MEMBERS OF ALL RACES AND CREEDS!!!...WHILE THE HORRIBLE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY WAS GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY...TO WHICH THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE ASHAMED...MY ANCESTERS WERE IN RUSSIA...LIVING AS PEASANTS (MAYBE A COUPLE OF POTATOS A DAY)...AND FALLING VICTIM TO "PROGROMS"!!!...TO THE UNINITIATED...PROGROMS WERE WHEN THE MAJORITY RUSSIAN SOCIETY WENT ON KILLING RAMPAGES AGAINST ANY AND ALL JEWS LIVING IN THEIR PORTION OF RUSSIA!!!...MY UNCLE...WHEN MY GRANDPARENTS CAME TO THIS COUNTRY...WAS HELD BACK IN THE SECOND GRADE...BECAUSE YIDDISH WAS SPOKEN IN THEIR HOME...AND MY UNCLE COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WELL ENOUGH!!!...NO BI-LINGUAL EDUCATION...NO COURTESY PASSING 2ND GRADE...HE LEARNED TO SPEAK ENGLISH...AND BY HIGH SCHOOL...WAS ABLE TO SPEAK AND COMMUNICATE AS WELL AS ANYONE ELSE!!!...WE SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER THE SUFFERING OF OUR ANCESTERS...BUT LET'S ALL GET OVER IT...FOR THE SAKE OF OUR CHILDRENS FUTURES...AND NOT LET THESE KIDS WALK AROUND WITH A SCARLET LETTER ON THEIR CHEST WHICH ONLY SERVE TO HOLD THEM BACK!!!...THANKS AGAIN RALPH!!!...STUBASS

By mhc (172.148.191.254) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:44 pm:

What a fucking mess.. While I was waiting 10 hours for this thread to load in, I read Isaiah's original post, and I think that it was carefully and sensitively written. He expressed concern in the third paragraph that Black culture isn't taken seriously; I think that, as a reader, when you read the posts on this forum you have to decide which ones you personally do or do not take seriously. There may be a few air-heads here (there are..), but I think that by and large, most people who post on this forum know that Soul Music, at it's heart, is Black music. My own study and research of American Popular Music tells me that in the 20th Century, African-American energy and creativity set the pace and called the tune. To me, that's just the reality of it; some people are capable of accepting and realizing that, others, FUCK 'EM. As far as all the bitching and lashing out on this thread goes, people, you really need to get out of the house, or get out of town, once in awhile..

By bob (209.87.128.124) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:56 pm:

Forum Members: I think if we looked closely the
Jewish contribution to soul music would be easily recognized.

bob

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:22 am:

YES BOB!!!...MANY ETHNIC GROUPS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO WHAT WE CALL SOUL MUSIC...HOWEVER...AS ISAIAH INITIALLY STATED...IN HIS FIRST PARAGRAPH...SOUL MUSIC EVOLVED OUT OF THE SO CALLED "BLACK EXPERIENCE" IN THIS COUNTRY...AND WITHOUT BLACK PEOPLE...THERE WOULD BE NO SOUL MUSIC...AND THE MANY OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE MADE TO OUR CULTURE!!!...THIS CAN NEVER BE DENIED...NOR SHOULD IT BE!!!...THE PROBLEM AROSE IN ISAIAH'S SECOND PARAGRAPH...HIS MISGUIDED ASSERTION THAT WHITE PEOPLE "HIJACKED" SOUL MUSIC AS THEIR OWN!!!...YEAH...WHITE KIDS...AS WELL AS BLACK KIDS...AND KIDS FROM ALL OTHER ETHNIC SPECTRUMS "HIJACKED" THEIR PARENTS CARS TO RUSH DOWN TO THE RECORD STORES TO BUY THIS MUSIC...WITHOUT WHOM...SOUL MUSIC AS WE KNOW IT...WOULD NOT HAVE BECOME THE COMMERCIAL SUCCESS IT DID BECOME!!!...AS KEVGO ARTICULATED...WHEN I SEE PICTURES OF ANDRE WATTS CONDUCTING A SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA...I DON'T THINK...THERE GOES A BLACK GUY CONDUCTING WHITE PEOPLES MUSIC!!!...I SEE A MAN CONDUCTING GREAT MUSIC WHICH EVOLVED FROM THE WORLD OF MUSIC THAT IS THERE FOR US ALL TO ENJOY AND APPRECIATE!!!...STUBASS

By Soulaholic (68.41.47.183) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:31 am:

To all in this post:

A quote from Doctor Martin Luther King�s Speech:
"Where Do We Go From Here?" Given to the 11th Convention of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference
16 August 1967 - Atlanta, Georgia

�And I say to you, I have also decided to stick with love, for I know that love is ultimately the only answer to mankind's problems. (Yes) And I'm going to talk about it everywhere I go. I know it isn't popular to talk about it in some circles today. (No) And I'm not talking about emotional bosh when I talk about love; I'm talking about a strong, demanding love. (Yes) For I have seen too much hate. (Yes) I've seen too much hate on the faces of sheriffs in the South. (Yeah) I've seen hate on the faces of too many Klansmen and too many White Citizens Councilors in the South to want to hate, myself, because every time I see it, I know that it does something to their faces and their personalities, and I say to myself that hate is too great a burden to bear. (Yes, That�s right) I have decided to love. If you are seeking the highest good, I think you can find it through love. And the beautiful thing is that we aren't moving wrong when we do it, because John was right, God is love. (Yes) He who hates does not know God, but he who loves has the key that unlocks the door to the meaning of ultimate reality."

It's time to make peace and move on from this.

By Larry (68.164.129.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:06 am:

Soulaholic. You're right, but, I spent time writing a response to Stu, so allow me a brief moment.
********************************************

Wow Stu. You really jumped off the cliff with that Money is cool anthem. You seem very proud of your possessions and abilities, however, when I said �I see nothing wrong with Pride� I wasn�t talking about materialism, I was talking about culture, which is what (I thought) Isaiah�s first post was about.

You called me out, so I�ll speak to you about me. My POV comes from an ingrained sense of fairness. I guess I�m a Socialist at heart. There�s a part of me that thinks, �if we can�t all get there together, we shouldn�t go. I�m not naïve, but, I am one for the underdog (no reference to anyone in this thread). Also, I work and have toys too, but, to air them out here? I don�t know why you �went there� man, but, obviously you had a compelling reason.

Here�s a personal story in exchange for yours. I proudly drive an 86 Dodge Aries Wagon. She�s yellow and ugly but the body�s straight! Often I experience a mild form of prejudice on the road. People either rush around me or don�t see me at all. Some actually point fingers and laugh. I�m not insecure so I just observe it and move along. Honestly, I could afford an upgrade, but, to me it�s like a badge and a test of humanity. Imagine to see everyday how one can be treated differently, rudely or ignored because of the car they drive. It�s funny and sick at the same time!

One other thing Stu, it would show respect to many SD family members who�ve mentioned this CAPS THING.
It really is hard to read. At work my eyes get so googly over it that I miss a lot of your insights, plus in cyberspace (I know I know you know) it means �yelling�. I know old habits are hard to break. Don�t worry though, it would show respect, and not loss of power by changing it up. If you can�t, I�ll try harder to read your posts.

Isaiah, thank you for thanking me. Man, you pissed some people off bigtime. Or, maybe they pissed themselves off. Honestly, I'm not sure now. I sense though that you have a good spirit. Yes, some anger, but, hell, we all have that as this thread has shown.

Viva Soulful Detroit and funk-soul brothers �n� sisters everywhere!

By StingBeeLee (68.43.130.52) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:19 am:

I must, I must, I must stand with the person who is from my 'hood, Stubass. Anyone who grew up in Detroit knows what I'm talking about. It would take a wild stretch of my imagination to think that Stubass is a racist, as it would almost be impossible to be an overt racist in my neighborhood (Stubass would have had his ass kicked constantly if he was a racist). I don't know Stubass personally, but I've talked to people who knew him and not once did they say he is/was a racist. Sorry Stubass for stepping up, but this is a Pasteur Elementary thing.
In my opinion, I believe that practically all of the people who post here are not racially inclined, as most people here are involved in music, or musically inclined, or love music. The more I read and study about rock and roll, blues, jazz, country, the more I am inclinded to believe that those people involved in music in some form or fashion are much less racially inclined than the general population. When I look at Grand Ole Opry pictures from the '30's and I see (I belive) the Delmore? brothers standing with the white people, no, not in back; no, not carrying shovels, but carrying instruments, and I look at old jazz records and see the same thing; and I read that musicians from the sixties didn't care who they played with, they just wanted the best, or someone who shared their vision; I began to think that these people probably weren't racists. But I still get mad when I see TV shows or articles that proclaim Elvis as the inventor of rock and roll and give short snippets of Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, as if to say Elvis taught them; or don't give proper due where it should be given.

By Larry (68.164.129.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:26 am:

Stu,

Now I see what ticked you off. I think of my Armenian friend who's a nice, well educated guy. But on the topic the Armenian holocaust and the lack of world recognition? Watch out. He's so upset about it, that when the holocaust is brought up, he can empathize, but, not without some reluctance. That's where he's at in his life.
I can hardly blame him.

Maybe we should've let Isaiah be where he's at in his life at this moment. How could we deny it? Many of you tried. He wouldn't let you. Some of you had to have known going in he wouldn't back down on his POV. Now I wonder if folks through fuel on Isaiah's fire. The man was set-straight-adamant from the getgo. I had to respect his conviction. Plus, I found nothing offensive in his first post.

I've said everything I can. I feel I've taken up everyone's space. Adieu!

By forgetful Larry (68.164.129.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 03:31 am:

Soulaholic,

Thank you for posting Dr. King's quote.

By B. Foster (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 05:16 am:

Isaiah,

I commend you for confronting some difficult issues head on, despite the fact that things have turned a bit ugly. It's all too easy to sugar coat, or just sidestep the issues you address. I do respect your right to lay claim to what is yours, and to have that claim recognized in something other than a superficial way, although I think you are preaching to a choir that has voluntarily assembled here because they agree with your basic proposition. I would think that this forum is one of the highly sensitized places imaginable with respect to the origins of R&B, funk, Soul Music, Black Music or whatever name you wish to call it. I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to bait what would otherwise be a highly sympathetic crowd that is multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-national, yet inclusive and respectful.

I must take issue with you on a key point. You have become engaged in a rather nasty scrap with stubass. If you were to point out that stu can be an extremely irritating poster who feels the need to constantly draw attention to himself, trivializing nearly every thread with his sycophantic name dropping, his unique brand of "humor free" wit, his compulsion to crow about his material posessions, or his irritating ALL CAPS style, I would emphatically agree with you, and I don't think I would be the only one to do so. However, you have called him out as a patronizing "Lester Maddox" style racist, and that is serious charge that just isn't borne out by his behavior on the forum. Thus, I find myself in the curious position of defending a guy who I think is a complete idiot, and that really pisses me off!

As far as discussions of culture or race on this forum, just start the damn threads and discuss whatever you like. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people willing, and even anxious to participate. Or not - some threads fly, some don't. That's how things work here for everyone else. Why can't that work for you?

B. Foster

By Isaiah (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 06:32 am:

B. Foster, I said I would not respond to anymore posts, just read and analyze, but you say that I called Stu Bass a "Lester Maddox-Style racist", and I most certainly did not..." Those were the words of another poster, not mine... I have used my own real name in all of my posts, as I feel no need to conceal the real me - whatever the posters at this site, or anyone else, feels about me... Did I call Stu Bass some other things? Yes, sir, I unflinchingly admit to having done so, but I will not accept other's words being attributed to me... Do I believe that Stu Bass is an unsavory cat, I absolutely do, and so do a lot of you, apparently... I asked for a discussion on the Culture of African Americans, and got a lot of pent-up racism and angst, and professions of ignorance about what I wanted to discuss... Man, it is as I told SB, all of the other ascribed issues were straw issues to divert the discussion - which is why it took a downward turn... My final question is, if so many folk find this clown Stu Bass so irritating, why not call him out, as you and Larry have done, B.Foster..? A profane knucklehead like this should not be allowed to dominate ANY discussion at this forum...

Peace and Blessings!
Isaiah

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 06:54 am:

all i know is you guys need to stop talkin bout
daddy and angel and continue with the subject
at hand. how did we get from african american
music to lester maddox is beyond me. i'm born
the the south lester is not a very good
conversation piece. anyways back to the subject.
you really can't put a color to music because
that's the one thing people of all colors share.
i was born in the late 50's and the earlier
music you did not see the artist on the album
colors (art) so it was hard to tell the color
of the artist. i saw on a pbs special white
artist that i mistook for black and vise
versa. so we can't grab r&b or soul and say
it's only african american because there's
a lot of soul in different nationalities.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.106.8) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 07:01 am:

Ralph,I can tell your from Detroit.
I like your style.

By Kenyatta (172.142.216.131) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 07:08 am:

I agree with Isaiah 100 percent when he says Stubass is a profane knucklehead.

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 07:48 am:

anyway i would like to take the time to say that
there are so many different people in this forum
to learn from, that even the people we may
disagree with have brought their ideas to the table.stubass was always had my back even when
the others called my ideas stupid, so stubass
you always got my respect till i go to that
great elite angel kingdom in the sky. there are
even people that i have learned from or
has brought up ideas that i enjoy reading
that may not be from the top wheels of
the forum that everybody continues to make
into heroes but the little humble ones.thank all of you for this learning experience from the
so called top wheels to the record buyers thank
all of you.

By Galactus (68.171.125.218) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:45 am:

Let me just say, as a guy from Columbia, South Carolina and currently living on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina.....and as a guy who's biggest claim to ethnic heritage would probably be my olive skin and some Cherokee Indian on my great grand-maternal side (common in these parts) but otherwise white....I've been a huge soul/r&b fan all my life.

But then again, I was an oddball kid. I never cared about my peers or what they were interested in. I never have cared what people thought, because I enjoy doing my own thing too much. Life is much better that way. You can't worry about what people think......

I never went with the grain, and have to admit that, musically, I had much more in common with my black friends than I did my white friends. I knew no white kids who had my musical tastes. Then again, most black guys my age didn't like EXACTLY what I liked either.......I was born in '65 and had more in common with the older black audience I guess (say, those born in 1955-60). Recently worked with a white guy from Indiana and he couldn't believe my musical tastes. We used to argue about it all the time. He'd say things to piss me off like "Marvin Gaye sucked" and I come back with "The Beatles were overrated" or some such nonsense.

On the other hand, I've also known some black guys who loved hard rock music.....and white guys who enjoyed some of the stuff I do...... Never forget that Beach music played a big role in South Carolina, particularly on the coast, and r&b does have it's audience here. They just tend to be older than my age group in a lot of cases.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that music is universal......and in my opinion soul music is living proof of that. That's why it's got it all over rock or country......when I'm listening to it race never enters my mind. I'm too busy grooving to really care about anything trivial, nor care about what others think.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:26 am:

OK, I'm willing to close this thread if that is the general feeling of the group. I don't think it is serving any real purpose to Soulful Detroit. Initially I thought Isaiah posted a thought provoking piece but things have definitely deteriorated now. Shall I shut it down??

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:14 am:

Yes, please. What started out as an interesting and thought provoking discussion of the "black experience" has degenerated into a name calling, race baiting tyrade more suitable for Discuss Detroit, where that sort of thing goes on all the time.....

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:15 am:

THANKS RALPH!!!...MY FINAL...IN THAT I'VE SORT OF ENJOYED THIS DIALOGUE (IN A WEIRD SORT OF WAY)!!!...ISAIAH'S THREE POINTS!!!...
1. BLACK PEOPLE CREATED WHAT WE KNOW AS SOUL MUSIC!!!...I CERTAINLY AGREE...ALTHOUGH I AM SURE THAT MANY SOULFUL DETROIT POSTERS THOUGHT IT WAS ACTUALLY HANK WILLIAMS...ROY ACUFF...AND MINNIE PEARL...SO THANKS ISAIAH FOR STRAIGHTENING THESE PEOPLE OUT!!!...
2. WHITE FOLKS HAVE HIJACKED SOUL MUSIC!!!...WELL...IF LARRY BIRD HIJACKED THE NBA...ROCKEY MARCIANO HIJACKED BOXING...AND ALLAN SLUTSKY HIJACKED THE "FUNK BROTHERS"...THEN I GUESS HE HAS A POINT...BUT I DOUBT IT!!!...
3. "NORTHERN SOUL" IS A FRAUD...IN THAT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT "SOUL MUSIC" WAS FROM THE SOUTH!!!...WELL...IF ISAIAH HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO LEARN WHAT "NORTHERN SOUL" AS REFERREED TO ON THIS FORUM WAS...AS WAS TOLD TO HIM THE FIRST TIME HE POSTED HERE...HE WOULDN'T HAVE MADE SUCH AN OBVIOUS ERROR TO EXPRESS A MAJOR POINT!!!...
AT BEST...ONE OUT OF THREE...AND THOSE ODDS DON'T GET YOU VERY FAR IN LIFE (AND THE ONE WAS A "BLOOP SINGLE")!!!...AN ARGUMENT TOTALLY BASED ON MISINFORMATION...BUT AS ADOLPH HITLER SAID..."IF YOU TELL A LIE OFTEN ENOUGH...SOME PEOPLE WILL START TO BELIEVE IT!!!...NUFF SAID...PEACE TO ALL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS...BLACK AND WHITE AND ALL OTHERS!!!...THANKS FOR DEFENDING ME BFOSTER (I THINK)...AND OTHERS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED YOUR OPINIONS...PRO OR CON!!!...STU(NOT TRYING TO IRRITATE ANYONE...WELL MAYBE JUST A LITTLE)BASS

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:23 am:

PS TO LARRY!!!...YOU NEED A NEW CAR DUDE!!!...PLEASE COME AND SEE ME!!!...I'LL GET YOU INTO A SAFER MORE UP TO DATE AND EFFICIENT (LOW EMISSION) MODEL...AND PROMISE I WON'T MAKE A DIME ON YOU!!!...STU

By VONNIE (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:29 pm:

CLOSE THIS SUCKER DOWN RALPH,

IT HAS GOTTEN TO BE OLD TIRED "KAKA".

VONNIE

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

Other than the anger of a couple posters, this thread is a revelation for some. I don't think it should be shut down. DON'T SWEEP IT UNDER THE RUG. Just let Lowell put it in the archives when it's time.

By LUCY (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

GOD ALMIGHTY,PEOPLE.I HAVE READ ALL OF YOUR POSTS.YES,THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I FEEL I CAN'T SPEAK ON MANY OF THESE SUBJECTS.ALL OF YOU ARE VERY,VERY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE.STUBASS,YOU AMAZE ME.I HAVE LEARNED SOOO MUCH FROM ALL OF YOU.
I AM WHITE,BUT I HAVE LOVED SOUL,AND RHYTHM AND BLUES MUSIC ALL OF MY LIFE.IT IS ALL I LISTEN TO,BECAUSE I LOVE IT.SOUL TO ME,IS A FEELING THAT COMES FROM INSIDE.IT IS OF NO RACE OR COLOR.IT IS A FEELING.AS STRANGER STATED IN ANOTHER THREAD,
"WHAT IS SOUL MUSIC TO YOU",IT IS LEVI SINGING
"I BELIEVE IN YOU AND ME".TO ME IT'S LEVI SINGING ANYTHING!!!!! I LOVE THE MAN.I ALSO LOVE ALL OF YOU,AND I BELIEVE WE CAN DISCUSS AND DISAGREE
CIVILLY AT THE SAME TIME.
I ALSO PRAY THAT IN THIS YEAR 2003,WE HAVE COME WAY BEYOND THIS SO CALLED "BLACK AND WHITE" ISSUE.
WE ARE ALL THE SAME,NO MATTER WHAT COLOR WE ARE.

By B. Foster (209.219.207.3) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

Isaiah,

A few brief points:

1) You are right. You did not actually call stubass a "Lester Maddox style racist". You did refer to his "redneck ass" and some other good stuff, but hey, why quibble? You made your point.

2) Despite the many other stubass transgressions I listed in my previous post, I don't believe that he ever posted anything profane until this thread, where clearly, he felt he was being baited.

3) We certainly agree on one thing - what a knucklehead! That defense of materialism post (like we really needed to hear about the 3 story townhouse / roadster / personal tailor) was the weirdest damn thing I've ever read on this forum!

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:58 pm:

LUCY - It will not be in our life time. Give it another 300 years before we won't think of color or race. They will then just disagree on religion. Wars on religion will cause the turmoil.

Suffice it to say, right now we have the love of soul music in common.

By Edgar (200.46.12.82) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:22 pm:

Ralph, don't close it. Let it be... We are getting to know each other, that's all. In any case, some persons can avoid any thread started by Isaiah... who by the way has the name of a major Jewish prophet (is that how you translate "profeta mayor" in English, as opposed to the lesser knowns?)

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:30 pm:

This thread has been divisive, and pit friend against friend. I like Smokey's poem, but I doubt that many here really really listened to his words. One Love and Vonnie have it right.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

SINCE IT'S CONTINUING!!!...I GUESS THAT IF I CAN GET EVERY WACKO ON THE FAR FAR LEFT TO HATE ME...*AND* GET EVERY NUTBALL ON THE FAR FAR RIGHT TO HATE ME...THEN I HAVE INDEED A VICTORY...AND STAND TALL AND PROUD!!!...PS TO THOSE WHO HAVE E-MAILED ME!!!...IT'S ALL COOL...AND A FEW OF YOU WHO HAVE EXPRESSED RESERVATIONS IN EXPRESSING YOUR OPINION...FOR FEAR OF BEING UNFAIRLY BRANDED A RACIST...UNCLE TOM...OR SELLOUT...I UNDERSTAND...BUT FOR ME...TRUTH IS TRUTH!!!...STU

By SB (199.183.163.87) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:49 pm:

I wanted to leave this topic - and in a way I feel that maybe it should be pulled. On the other hand - I think it should be left alone if others feel strongly that is should stay open, for what/who is it hurting except maybe someone's sensibilities? I am torn about it.

In some ways it might seem divisive, but so are a lot of other things in this world and in America. Sis is right, in that it will be a long time before race and color doesn't matter. Folks will never agree about race and color - religion and war - and in this is why we truly need to understand where the topic will lead.

I'll tell you all right now - that I have strong feelings and passions about war and religion. If this thread is kept open - I might have to jump back in here on them.

For instance - I don't appreciate Bush or Blair - and might want to give my thoughts about it - yet - I wouldn't want to get into it w/anyone as it pertains to my feelings.

Finally - what is a Democrat and a Republican? Doesn't what those words represent stand for and spells divisiveness in the worst way? God could care less what a man/woman on this earth call themselves. (He will ultimately Judge one's heart - and that will be it) They are just words - yet they are a major divide in this society and the words bring out the worst in people - IMO. There are too many things in America/World that divides, which can be named here - and opinions are just one of these things.

So - I don't know.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 03:01 pm:

SB....
....my feelings as that of yours in your first paragraph are pretty much the same. I'm torn.

When I yelled last night (I'm sorry, by the way--I don't treat people that way and don't like to be treated so) I was irritated that a very interesting discussion had decentrigated into a name calling cat fight. I will happily widthdraw my objection to this thread IF and only if the people involved remember that other people have deeply held feelings and convictions, and that name calling and race baiting only reinforces stereotypes and hatred.
Fair enough?

By RALPH (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

Ok...notice I started a new thread. This one was taking forever to load. Let's see if we can use the new thread to our mutual benifit.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED...CLOSED....CLOSED...CLOSED

By medusa (66.73.8.192) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:56 am:

Oh Really??? hahaha