By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:47 am:

have any of you heard a group or
singer that in your opinions had a
unusal voice or couldn't sing.yet
can produce hit songs?
here is my example, Cher,anita baker(unusual
voice)charles wright

By Wonder B (81.50.171.45) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 06:37 am:

Anita Baker can't sing??????????????
This is some serious accusation!!! LOL
I'd say ASHANTI is on top of the list of the worst singers...(live)

Wonder B

By hindsight (65.238.91.197) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 07:21 am:

Can't sing.....the list is too long these days!!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:27 am:

HAS ANYONE OUT THERE HEARD THE NEW ASIAN ARTIST..."WING"???...CD IS SELLING LIKE HOT CAKES!!!...MRS. MILLER AND TINY TIM ALL ROLLED INTO ONE (BUT MORE OFF KEY)!!!...STUBASS

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.5.254) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:39 am:

Anita Ward~Ring My Bell

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.5.254) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:42 am:

R U speaking of the Charles Wright of the 103rd Watts St. Rhythm Band? The guy who sang 'Love Land' & "Express Yourself"?
Out of curiosity, what's bad about his sound, if I may ask?

By MaryEllenRodgers (65.238.115.192) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:12 am:

Ashanti and Usher. TLC was cute, but, couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. It's amazing how thin, whiney and off key voices are today. Thank God for the older recordings!!

By Eli (141.152.255.17) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:19 am:

Number one would be Lumidee with that dreadfull Uh Oh song and Ashanti is a very close runner up.

In the case of Anita Baker, to me she sounds like a foghorn, although she is a "stylist" and I never could undestand the attraction.

By dvdmike (68.72.92.152) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:40 am:

Charles Wright was not the lead singer on "Love Land", that was James Gadson. That was Charles on "Do Your Thing", "Till You Get Enough" and "Express Yourself."

By dvdmike (68.72.92.152) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:44 am:

Nat King Cole once said, "I can't sing, I just have a style," When Frank Sinatra heard what Nat had said about himself, he said, "Oh, I think he was really underrating himself. I liked the quality of his voice, his tonation was always true." I totally agree. Nat is one of the very few male singers who gives me goose bumps.

By Eli (141.152.255.17) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 11:53 am:

IMO, Nat was the Luther of his day with a voice fashioed of the finest, pure woven silk!!
His voice and style transcend the test of time and beyond.

His music is the perfect accompaniment for a night of passionate lovemeking.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:16 pm:

I HAD GOOSEBUMPS ONCE,DIDN'T LIKE EM SO I TOOK EM BACK AND GOT CHICKENPOX,DIDN'T LIKE THOSE EITHER BUT I LOST MY RECIEPT AND THE MAN AT THE BIRD STORE WOULDN'T TAKE EM BACK!

By dvdmike (68.72.92.152) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

Hee-hee-hee, ho-ho-ho

By Jim Feliciano in Detroit. (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:27 pm:

The very name 'Biz Markee' is synonimous with this thread with his dreaded "You Got What I Need', and his 'God-awful' live redition of Elton John's "Benny And The Jets", found on the "Beastie Boys Anthology" CD.

Let's we forget, that we are reminded again that he really couldn't sing....:o{

By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 02:15 am:

..to present a little friendly opposition, I happen to love Anita Baker's style of singing, and her "Compositions" album is on my Top Ten list of all time favorites...

To respond to the original topic, I have to agree that about Ashanti and Lumidee not being able to sing (very well, at least) good enough to sell as many albums as they do, hell, I could give them a run for their money and I flat out CAN'T SING and don't try. To add to that list, once I heard Mary J Blige singing live in concert, I've come to the conclusion that the woman is absolutely tone deaf, and technology must be great nowadays to make her sound good on her albums. I think that the singers Mya and J.Lo as well as the singer named Musiq are dreadfully plain and ordinary sounding, no feeling whatsoever in their music. And goodness don't get me started on Britney Spears.
There is also a singer out named Kelis, who has a very unusual sounding voice, very Anita Baker-like.

That's all....for now... :o)

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

i think after scrolling up i said
anita baker has a unusual voice.but
it was my opinion that she sounds
like something is in her mouth same
as cher. toni braxton can sing, but
i have trouble understanding the lyrics
of her song.

By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 05:59 pm:

I concur with Cher and Anita Baker. Andrea True can't really sing. As for these modern acts - ASHANTI tops my list. Britney Spears is the biggest fraud ever with her non-singing self. J. Lo, too

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.10.229) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:04 pm:

Sorry ...dvdmike.

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

One of the problems is that there are not many "record men" left who not tone deaf.
Just like we are attuned to hearing in tune, a lot of the current crop of "pros" are thrown off by hearing propper pitch and I can bear witness to that.
take some of those remixes where the music is in one key and the vocals in another.

Most of them do not even know how to communicate in musical terms.

I feel so sorry for the young people of today who know nothing of our rich musical history, only the crap that they are bombarded with on the radio and in the horrendous booty shakin videos
with all the vid-e-hos.

Melody....whats that I ask?????

By dvdmike (68.72.94.14) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 07:05 pm:

Sorry? For what?

By motownboy (67.117.46.217) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:08 am:

Mary J. Blige........ Although I've never met her, she seems like a really nice sincere person. But who told her she could sing?????

She wouldn't have made the final 10 on American Idol...

By supremeross (64.245.39.99) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:46 am:

Lets not forget Madonna.

By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:56 am:

Yes Madonna cannot sing in or out of tune and she kinda looks like she belongs in another remake of the Adams Family.

If it weren't for Auto Tune.....

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:45 pm:

I have never seen Phil Collins get through an entire song in a live television appearance without hitting a clunker or two. On the plus side, he never struck me as a guy who thinks of himself as the world's greatest singer so much as a drummer who accidentally won the pop-star lottery.

Hey Eli, combining thoughts from your previous two posts, I have heard tales recently of an epidemic of bigwig producer/executive types who will not believe anything is in tune unless they see it graphically, and will Auto-Tune the holy heck out of anything and everything regardless of how it actually sounds.

Regards,
Ken

By Stephanie (64.63.221.176) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:57 pm:

I respect the opinions of many here but if you listen to Gypsies Tramps and Thieves, Dark Lady,
You Better Sit Down Kids, The Way of Love..I dont know where I hear so many people get off saying Cher cant sing,,that lady is a belter. I really like her voice except for that mundane song Take Me Home!!!! YUCK!!!

Now for non singers who have become hits Ashanti, is first on the list and then comes that god awful voice of Vicki Lawrence but it WORKED on thats the night the Lights went Out in Georgia. I think Charlene cant sing either "Ive Never Been to Me"!!! Xtown knows I cant stand that song!!! Anita Baker can sing she is a stylist but Im not all that crazy about her voice but its good for her songs....to this day after
Ashanti the next one is Macy Grey she sounds like Marge Simpson and I dont know how that fluke worked..LOL

Most of these chicks today cant sing but Brittany Spears can carry a tune Ill give it to her and Beyonce. I cant sing as well as Ashanti on record but I think I sound better than she does!!!
I know Im going to get some flack I NEVER thought Barbara Mason could sing but she sounds so little girlish that it works for her but she sings a lot better than most of the girls out here today. She was 17 when she did Yes Im Ready and helped to write it so I cant really fault her at all. NOW the third worst is Rosie Hamlin of Rosie and the Originals but she gets my props because she was one of the first hispanics to break big so she paved the way for the others along with Jose Feliciano and Tito Puente but her
Oooohhhhhh on Angel Baby is one of the most piercing things my ears have ever heard..
Stephanie

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 03:36 pm:

stephanie no offense, but cher sounds like
her tongue is too big. but she got style
i give her that

By Charmedes (142.165.104.23) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:12 pm:

I'll simply say my least favorites are Cher, Freda and Sherrie Payne.

By irvmilne (81.152.210.46) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:23 pm:

your lucky in the states youve only mentioned 3 or 4 in the uk we have lots ie the cheeky girls,atomic kitten,sugababes,so solid crew,888,busted,i could go but dont want to take the standard of the site down oh yes also pop idols as well so if you have the missfortune to tune it the bbc's radio 1 by mistake this is the sort of rubbish you will hear,beware of simon cowell and simon fuller they are trying to take over americas radio and tv

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:33 pm:

Charmedes:
Whoa! What is there NOT to like about Freda Payne's singing, which I think is quite good.

Fayette:
I'd rather listen to Cher, especially from the time she recorded "Gypsies Tramps & Thieves" to "Believe", than to listen to a lot of these new "singers" that are out there.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 05:42 pm:

kevin to each his own

By Charmedes (142.165.109.7) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 08:48 pm:

Kevin: It's simply an "individual" thing having to do with appreciation of the tone an individual produces. One can be very beautiful in person, be in possession of great material and really belt it out. but ultimately its the tonal quality that wins me over. That can sometimes be overlooked to some degree, however, if the singer is capable of expressing a depth of feeling powerful enough to move one emotionally. I think of Dorothy Moore's "Misty Blue," sung simply yet resulting in a very moving presentation.

Pyrotechnics, glamour, flash and dash often aren't enough.

Just a note: I often wondered what Flo Ballard would have sounded like if HDH would have given her Freda's hits, "Band of Gold" and "Deeper and Deeper".

By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:08 am:

...Charmedes...good point about Flo Ballard. From the little material I have actually heard from her, she sounds pretty good ("Buttered Popcorn", moments in Supremes songs where she got to sing a line or two), the only exception to that being a sound clip I heard on another website of a song from her solo career (post-Supremes)...I can't remember the name of it, but she didn't sound too good in it.

Stephanie...have to disagree witcha on the Cher and the Britney thing...to me, Britney sounds like she's just talking in different notes, no singing involved. But I can't really hound you about Cher that much though, she just doesn't do anything for me. I'll look at it like this---I love Anita Baker's music, but there are those (who shall remain nameless :o) who thinks she sounds, and I quote, "like a foghorn"...and really don't care for her singing. So I guess it's all about personal tastes...no two people hear the same thing, it's what makes the world go round.

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:29 am:

i think anita baker had style so does
dionne warrick. but she does have a
something in my mouth sound.don't
own anything by anita but i know there's
people out there that loves her music,
it's all about indivdual taste,just like
for the life of me i don't understand
what people see in mike jagger.

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:58 am:

Interesting points about stylists vs singers, but whatever Nat King Cole was, he was a classic, just timeless.

By fayette (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:18 am:

nat king cole's voice was like velvet.never seen
another like him

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:21 am:

I always thought Nat King Cole was the personification of class.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:26 am:

Fayette:
You mean Mick Jagger?
Simply put - he & the Rolling Stones were seen by many as the perfect polar opposites of the Beatles (the Beatles were clean cut and well groomed, the Stones looked like they needed a barber & a tailor) which is what initially made them somewhat attractive to teens.

In reality, Mick & the Stones were die-hard blues & soul fans who wanted to play the music they grew up listening to(from Robert Johnson to Howlin' Wolf). They even recorded some of their hits and album tracks at the Chess Records studio in the 1960s (their song "2120 South Michigan Avenue" was the band's salute to Chess Records).

As for Dionne Warwick (Warrick is her real last name - Warwick was a misspelling that she accepted), she can do no wrong. Same with Anita. As you & Charmedes said, it's all about personal taste.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:30 am:

Nat "King" Cole, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Billy Eckstine, Roy Hamilton, Jackie Wilson, Dionne Warwick, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Johnny Mathis, Marvin Gaye, the Four Tops, Temptations, Supremes - all of these folks epitomized grace and class in my book.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

Kevin
This thread proves a lot of things that are not generally accepted or admitted.
1. People that cannot sing might like anyone with any degree of talent so anything can sell.
2. Nonmusicians do not know how to evaluate what they don't know but sometimes will voice their opinions as fact, anyway.
3.Smoke and mirrors have been around forever.

I will not take up the space needed to explain all of that but I will discuss the smoke and mirrors aspect. Nat Cole was mentioned and lauded (I for one loved almost everything he did) but not a thing was said about the 40,s Nat Cole. The fifties Nat Cole borrowed his style from another vocalist that eventually abandoned his singing career because of it. He developed a mostly instrumental career. In the forties most Black male vocalists were trying to sound like the guy that was most popular (sound contemporary), Charles Brown. Listen to Nat and Ray Charles in the forties and you will not recognize them. They both had to change to somehting else. Nat found a guy that was a little known but great vocalist and copied him until the other guy gave up. When you see the movie "Imitation of Life" you hear the other guy but everyone thought it was Nat. His name was Earl Grant. Nothing new in the music business.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:34 pm:

Lonnie:
I'm quite familiar with Charles Brown - the label I work for own the rights to his Swing Time-related recordings with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers.

Ray Charles is the first to admit that Brown influenced his early vocal style. I've heard Ray's Swing Time recordings and there is absolutely no hint of what he later did on Atlantic Records.

We're all influenced by someone and these legends were no exception.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

Boz Skags (really can't sing, but I digs his style)

Donald Fagin of Steely Dan (same deal)

Tina Tuner (an acquired taste, I've since acquired);-)

Tom Waites (poetic growler, but not a singer)

Most of the cats from New Edition (w/ the exception of Johnny Gill)

By Eli (172.129.3.165) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:55 pm:

Lonnie,

I always that Earl Grant borrowed Nat's style, as in the song "The End" recorded in the late fifties.
I guess that I was wrong, huh?

By lonnie cook (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:15 pm:

Bobby,
In the new thread Nat Cole (Jr)I state that the son was the one that convinced his father to listen to Earl because he had a sound fit to be copied.

By Lonnie cook (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:18 pm:

Hey Kev,
The saying is that there is nothing new under the sun (only variations).

By Eli (172.129.3.165) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

In the late seventies I had the distinct pleasure
of producing and writing/arranging for an album on Lola Falana.

The great minds of the powers that were at WMOT somehow convinced Atlantic to give them a budget for Lola to be recorded.

Rehearsals were soon scheduled, mainly at my home in NJ at the time, with Charles Collins, Sugar Bear, Dennis Harris, Larry Washington etc.
It was a lot of fun!!

When it came time to record, well....all I can say is ..Lola is one helluva dancer and a lovely person.

Needless to say, Atlantic scrapped the project.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:37 pm:

I would have to say Michael Franks, but I still like his music.

By fayette (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:43 pm:

so eli you saying lola couldn't sing. to me
lola singing and dianne carroll was similar,
nothing exciting but enough to say they sing too.

By Eli (172.129.3.165) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

Hi Fayette,

I enjoyed doing the Lola project insofar as the "fun" aspect was concerned.
We would hang sometimes and go grab a Philly Cheesesteak or something.
She was a very hard worker in the studio and I will give her an E for effort.
She did not sing out of tune but she had that "legit"type voice devoid of any style, per se.
It worked for her within the contexed of her vegas act while doing choreography because all eyes were focused on that aspect, otherwise,
forget it!!

We even custom tailored some songs especially for her which I played for her when we met in Vegas.
She had just split from Butch Tavares and two of the songs "hit home" and I think that they "clenched the deal" so to speak.

In the words of JFK..."at leased we tried"

By Des (81.152.238.57) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:08 pm:

Handsome/ I know we exchanged pleasantries about mutually shared love of certain artists....and I see that you "still enjoy Michael Franks' music".....I would take some issue with placing MF in "can't sing" category.He's a jazz-oriented stylist with a limited vocal range but he's better than "can't sing" surely???
I love his songwriting and,99percent of the time , I enjoy his delivery.......Y'know as I write this I'm realising I'm trying to defend a favourite Artist of mine and in my heart of hearts I know you're right......he's not a good singer........but the music,the lyrics,the intelligence,the evocative nature of his songs as a whole -- I love the guy.He must be due a new cd,it's been at least 4 years since Barefoot On The Beach.
I'm rambling.
Handsome - we gotta talk.I'll send you an email soon.
Des

By Jim G (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:48 pm:

Lonnie Cook, I think Nat Cole in the 40s sounds like Nat Cole. Compare "Nature Boy" or "Mona Lisa" with some of his ballads from the 40s, i.e., "Sweet Lorraine". It's the same guy, just a little bit jazzier.
The big difference is that Nat's piano playing was more to the fore in his early days. And he was a terrific pianist. Along with Clarence Profit, Cole pioneered on record the piano-bass-guitar instrumentation. Cole's trio, its repertoire, and his piano playing had a helluva impact on small groups.

Cole in his later years was Nat Cole, the singer. His beautiful sound was presented in a lush and beautiful setting.
Nat, like Louis Armstrong, became better known as a singer.

I'm really surprised by your revelation of Cole 'stealing' someone else's sound. Earl Grant?
I honestly can't remember what he sounded like, I recall his organ playing isn't too hip. But to say Nat consciously stole anyone's vocal style? When Nat had a fully developed sound of his own?

There's a lot I don't know, Lonnie, please school me. Gimme some examples, or sources, to back up what you say. I really dig Nat Cole, esp. his piano playing, and I want to learn more about him.

By lonnie cook (198.81.26.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:21 am:

The account of what Nat borrowed from Earl Grant was related to me by his son, and the son said that it was his (the son's) idea. I am a visionary and a hopeless dreamer but I fabricate not.

Two songs were previously mentioned, in this thread, that meet your requirement of examples of Earl's vocalizing, "The End" and "Imitation of Life". Most people, to this day, hear them and think that Nat is singing because it is very hard for the layman to differentiate. Earl abandoned his vocal career after Nat became the icon that he did, but the sound is unmistakable.

Someone also mentioned that Ray Charles admits to trying to sound like Charles Brown, Nat admitted it too. The reference was in some liner notes on some lp he recorded, if I remember which one i'll post it. Most of the Black male vocalists, at that time, tried to sound like Charles Brown.

Also, remember that I loved Nat's sound as much as the next person but truth is truth. Sorry to step on so many toes with it.

I'll bet most of you do not know that Elvis stole his whole act, gyrations and all, from a Black man that, prior to Brown, was even more popular. Elvis even covered one of his biggest hits. Guess who that was??????

By skeptic (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:11 am:

Uh Lonnie, don't you think you should describe this guy as his "alleged son." Can you offer us proof that he's any relation to Nat King Cole?

Didn't think so.

By Jim G (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:28 am:

I don't question your Charles Brown statements, in fact I agree with you. Brown was a very influential singer whose sound was the basis for many others.

And you didn't 'step on toes', at least not mine. I hadn't heard about the Earl Grant connection. I'll try and find those numbers you've cited.
Could it be the other way around? Was Grant influenced by Nat?

From what I've read about Nat (the Epstein bio + assorted articles) there wasn't ever a slump in his popularity: he always had a rec deal with Capitol, and later he had a TV show.
That's why "I Wonder" (remember Cecil Gant?) why he felt the need to copy a fairly obscure singer.

I know you may not have the answers to these questions, Lonnie.
You've brought up an intriguing topic.

By CaliMan (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:36 am:

Come on Lonnie, tell us who Elvis copied his styled from, the suspense is killing me. You the man Lonnie.

By Lonnie cook (198.81.26.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:50 am:

http://freespace.virgin.net/j.hobday/biog.html

When Elvis Presley chose 'Good Rockin' tonight' as his second Sun record Harris was assured his place in Rock history(It was in fact Roy Brown who recorded the song first but the earlier version failed by comparison), however Harris would have been a major influence regardless. His outrageous clothes, his slicked hair, his dancing and his overt sexuality were all copied by Elvis et al making Harris the first true Rock n' Roller.

Wynonie Harris was born in Omaha, Nebraska on 24th Auguat 1915. As a young man he developed a reputation as a dancer, comedian and MC at the local clubs. But inspired by his heros, Jimmy Rushing (long term vovalist with Count Basie) and Big Joe Turner, he headed for Los Angeles where he secured the lucrative position of MC at the popular Club Alabam.


1. Wynonie "Mr Blues" Harris

Nobody Rocked like Mr Blues - 10 years before Elvis walked into Sun Studios in Memphis, Wynonie Harris was rocking and rolling and living the ultimate rock lifestyle. His influence on 50's rock n' roll cannot be measured. Everything from his music to his dancing to his clothes were copied by the bobby sox generation. But Harris along with many of the other R&B originators were never to recieve the cross over success of their younger, whiter, counterparts. Harris died in 1969 relatively unkown. This is the real rock n' roll swindle. The man who gave the world 'Good Rocking Tonight' and a string of R&B classics - the man Presley went to see as a youngster - has only recently started to recieve the plaudits he so richly deserved.

By CaliMan (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:53 am:

Elvis was a thief!

By Jim G (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:09 am:

On one of his King sessions Wynonie was backed by Todd Rhodes' band.
Like almost everyone else, Wynonie played the Flame Show Bar in Detroit.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.106.8) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:11 am:

A few years ago I read Ray Charles autobiography.
In it he speaks of how he copied Charles Browns style when he first started giging.
Most musicians copy their favorite musician when they're starting out(or try to). You listen to their records over and over till you can do some of their licks just like them.
As you get more experienced,you develop your own style,sometimes still sounding like your hero,other times just(borrowing) a few of your favorite licks.(look at guitar players and Chuck Berry)
I don,t think there's to many musicians that didn't start out trying to sound like someone else that they admired.

Jim G. I have a Nat King Cole c.d.(anthology type) and your right about him going from a slightly more jazzy style in the forties to a smoother style as his career progressed.The man CAN play.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:43 am:

This comes from an Ace Records release. It does not come right out and make the statement that Cole tried to copy Brown but it gives proof of why he was put in position to try to emulate him.
I will isolate the relevant statements.


As we all know, Charles Brown has enjoyed something of a renaissance in recent years with new recordings on labels like Bullseye Blues, Muse and Gitanes Jazz which have been received very well by jazz and blues critics alike - even those who had previously dismissed him as a marginally funkier clone of Nat Cole.

(They are saying here that 40 years after the fact he was accused of being a Cole clone, to disprove this false assumption what transpired in the next paragraph occurred)


This has led to pleasingly comprehensive trawlings of the vaults for vintage material, culminating in 1994's Mosaic box of the complete Philo/ Aladdin recordings and this neat package of the entire Modern Records' sessions from 1945-46. Unfortunately the Biharis, much more so than the Mesners at Aladdin or the Renes at Exclusive, cast Brown and the Blazers as their answer to Cole and his trio (and we're talking 1946 Cole here of "For Sentimental Reasons" fame, not the hip and bouncy trio of the early 40s), resulting in a legacy top-heavy with ballads.

(Here in Los Angeles they were in direct competition. The researchers went back and compared the releases of both Brown and Cole and found that Nat Cole did not have any hits in his future style until Brown came along and proved to be a formidable musical foe)

Not blues ballads but Tin Pan Alley standards, although like Billie, Dinah and Ella Johnson, the Three Blazers were always able to infuse with the blues. Happily, there are exceptions; the two original bona fide blues "Travelin'" and "Sail On", a bright 'n' breezy boppy instrumental "Nutmeg", an unusual, but ultimately dreary party piece in "Warsaw Concerto" (which, bizarrely became the Blazers' theme tune), and a handful of interesting jazz covers that must have influenced the young Charles Brown - Buddy Johnson's superb 1940 Decca hit "You Won't Let Me Go", Ella Fitzgerald's "You Showed Me the Way" (1937), "What Do You Know About Love?" (1938) and "So Long" (1940), and "I'll Get Along Somehow" which was a hit in 1937 for Andy Kirk with vocal by Charles' idol Pha Terrell.


Most surprisingly, there are no standards associated with King Cole at this time, except for "It Had to be You", but Cole had recorded that in 1942 as an instrumental.
(Brown made him change his musical direction)

We are treated too, to a brace of previously unissued tracks; the historically interesting "You Are My First Love", a song that Charles had crafted well before hooking up with Johnny Moore, and the decidedly lo-fi, but appealingly unpolished "Copyright on Your Love", with Charles playing what sounds like a detuned piano and Johnny Moore taking a purely rhythmic role.

Apart from this last mentioned track, however, Johnny's instrumental contribution is extensive and peerless. Thank you Ace! I like this CD, but I'm a CB freak and a partisan of the jazzy west coast trio style. Other like-minded wimps (are there any? I sometimes think I'm in a minority of one!) can buy without giving it a second thought, whereas all you macho hard blues fans had best wait for Night Train's CD of Exclusive material for your fixes of "Merry Christmas Baby" etc.

Dave Penny

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Lonnie cook (198.81.26.170) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:53 am:

Thanks for not beating up on me (as some have the cutom), I am a researcher and I find all sorts of interesting and unbelieveable things that go against what is commonly thought to be true.

By fayette (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:52 pm:

lonnie i find you delightful, not about
to beat up on you. thanks for joining us

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

Hi Des.

I didn't mean to offend you about Michael Franks :o). I agree with your comments, but he's just not a great singer, though I have several cds & cassettes by him. Fortunately, I can move past some of these singers voices and enjoy the music & vibe (Not Ashanti, ha ha!). Mike's music puts me in a very comfortable, layed back mode, which I appreciate his music for...Someone get me a cocktail!

Des, you can catch me at darren.hobson@infores.com

Darren
aka
Handsome

By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:15 am:

JimG
Did you isolate (in your mind)the answer to the question you posed and posted.
(This is from your post)
From what I've read about Nat (the Epstein bio + assorted articles) there wasn't ever a slump in his popularity:

(JimG, This is correct, but the head to head, everyday in L.A., confrontation with Charles Brown made him change his musical horses midstream. Everytime he hit the street people would be talking bout Charles this and Charles that, it gets to one)

he always had a rec deal with Capitol, and later he had a TV show. That's why "I Wonder" (remember Cecil Gant?) why he felt the need to copy a fairly obscure singer.


(Gant just happened to have come along around the time of that fight for fans. His promoters did something that sticks in my head to this day. They sent out "I Wonder" (great allusion, by the way, I am sure you befuddled a lot of folks by putting it in so strategically)as an orange wax, super flexible 78 (you could fold it up). If this was not enough to make an everlasting impression they also mailed it to (at least) every Negro household known to man. Gant was in the Army at the time and they had a picture of him on the record in uniform. In retrospect I see that as one of the greatest ad campaigns in memory. We were segregationally position by things like that)


I know you may not have the answers to these questions, Lonnie.


(Noone ever has all the answers but I am one of those crazies that will try to find them)


You've brought up an intriguing topic.
(Thanks)

By SB (199.183.170.110) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

On my way to work this morning - and as soon as I turned on the radio - Al B. Sure was singing.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~prism/pages/albrown.htm

After the song ended - Tom Joyner praised Al all ova the place. He told Jay & Sybil and them to cop Al's greatest hits CD. He stated that he had forgotten how many hits Al had made.

I tried to pick out the song from the site above - but I'm not sure what the title was. But.....it is the song where he says, "What's up with that," and then he says something about = "Soap on a rope." LOL! Someone will know the title.

On my way home - I heard his "Nite and Day", and as God is my witness. I couldn't believe that I heard one of his songs coming and going. I used to love that record - and of course - his other hits.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 04:58 pm:

SB-The name of that song is Off On Your Own (Girl).

Where are you located SB (City & State)?

By SB (199.183.170.110) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

Oh I found it. The song was "Off On Your Own Girrrrl", and he said "Dope on a rope." LOL!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:04 pm:

Al B. Sure!'s album "In Effect Mode" contains both "Night & Day" and "Off On Your Own (Girl)". The CD is still available (I still have my "Night & Day" 45 and LP from my college radio days).

Al co-produced Jodeci's early hits in the 1990s, including "Come & Talk To Me", and guest-starred on the title track of David Bowie's "Black Tie White Noise".

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SB (199.183.170.110) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:05 pm:

Hey Handsome. I live in Northern VA, and near Springfield - and not far from DC. How about you?

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

SB-I'm in Chicago...Windy City.

I guess Tom Joyner's broadcast is ALL Over, ha ha!

Anybody remember that song AL B. did with Diana Ross? The title escapes me (No Matter what You do, I think is the title), but I remember one time on the radio the Disc Jockey was kidding around about the small dialogue on the record between the 2 artists, Diana saying, Don't tease me Al, I'm old enough to be your Grandmother, stop teasing me!

By Wonder B (80.15.129.102) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:23 pm:

So I see this topic went out of the boundaries of soul music...
In this case I have to name one much revered artist whom I have NEVER (ever) heard sing on key....
Ladies and gentlemen I bring you....
Robert Zimmermann aka Bob Dylan... Mind you I have tried... I even paid three times to see him live... his voice is juts God awful... off key, nasal and you can add to that...

Michael Franks is no Michael McDonald but his voice is very appropriate with what he sings and his genius doesn't lie with the technical side of singing but rather in his phrasing... you need many listenings to be able to sing in the same timing as he does...

Now for good blue eyed soul singers one guy rarely mentioned (but who should) is Gino Vanelli... I think his NIGHTWALKER set is just a classic from beginning to end...

Wonder B

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:28 pm:

Wonder B:
I mentioned Gino Vannelli quite a bit in other posts. His albums I've always enjoyed, especially "Pauper In Paradise", "Powerful People" and his hit record "Living Inside Myself".

I saw him perform at the Supper Club in NYC in the spring of 2000. He completely rearranged his hit songs and did newer jazz-oriented material. He was marvelous and I met him afterward. A gentleman and a class act.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Des (217.42.9.37) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:13 pm:

I picked up on Gino Vannelli on the release of Storm At Sunup @ 1975 -- I think that remains my favourite -- and bought every release (Gist of Gemini,Pauper In Paradise,Brother To Brother,Nightwalker and Black Cars). Now y'all no matter how much I loved the guy there were some awful lyrics,way over the top arrangements and heaps of cheese everywhere......I cannot exactly tell you why I could/can overlook those aspects,but simply put,when he and Joe got it right,they REALLY got it right.And the percentage of what they got right was high !!!
I never knew until recently he is based(living?) in Canada and has some new album just coming (or is already out) -- I'm gonna check before buying,cos I did think he'd burned out by Black Cars.
There you go,Kev,I called something I like 'cheesy' - it's a great day,ain't it?
Dairylea Des

By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:37 am:

Jimi Hendrix started singing because he reasoned that if Bob Dylan could go so far on a lousy voice, why couldn't he.

By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:39 am:

Bring back Mrs. Miller and have her do a Missy Elliott/Mary J. Blige kinda thing.

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 03:13 pm:

Thanks KevGo. I hadn't heard a peep about or out of Patti in years. I used to love the hit she had "Baby Come To Me." I read up and see she is Quincy's Goddaughter - and also Dinah Washington's. Boy - Quincy's name sure is popping up a lot here lately.

I would love to meet him.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 03:15 pm:

SB-Hi!

I bought Patti' Austin's album on Quest and fell in love with the song, "The Island". I believe she had a previous release on CTI, which I don't have. I love her voice also.

Handsome

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

Hey Handsome - you handsome thing you. Are you really all that handsome btw? LOL!

Tom Joyner is all ova the place - and his popularity has hit an all time high. I'm happy for him and his crew.

They used to be on the Howard University radio station until about two years ago. Now they are on 102.3.

Yes I agree that - Patti sings very well. I read up that she is immensly popular in Europe & Japan, so she spends a lot of her time over there. Isn't that something?

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:35 pm:

I hold my own (as far being Handsome)..I'm a beautiful person inside & out!

I also loved her duets w/James Ingram- Baby, Come To Me, & How Do you keep The Music Playing. Remember Razzamatazz & Betcha Wouldn't Hurt me (Stevie Wonder tune-from Quincy Jones-The Dude)?

Handsome

By 1Wicked (66.27.27.22) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

SB: I scrolled the entire thread & didn't see anything Kevgo posted re: Patti Austin, but....she has found a whole "new" market (Japanese fans both here AND in Japan) and she's putting forth a lot of energy in building that relationship. Though she does have an American fan base (though relatively small)....the stardom that has escaped her here via American fans is being realized through the Japanese. A recent article mentioned her appearing in San Francisco with one of Japan's best known "jazz" vocalists.....with Patti in the process of learning Japanese for a planned series of shows in Japan.


Oh...I dig Michaelo Franks too...and he had such popularity in Texas that a Jazz club in Dallas was named after one of his songs (Popsicle Toes).

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:42 pm:

OMG - I remember - "How Do You Keep The Music Playing", w/Patti & James. I absolutley love(d) that song. Where is my boy James - btw? And I love(d) - "Razzamatazz." On the site I visited they didn't list those two songs. Thanks Hand "I Hold My Own & I'm A Beautiful Person In And Out" Some. LOL!

Last I heard of James, was when he was on the MJ special singing w/Gloria Estaban (sp?). I'm gonna have to watch the MJ special this weekend I see.

I also see that Liza & David have ventured to Splitsville.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:56 pm:

1Wicked:
I posted on another thread that Patti Austin is still alive and well & that she recently received an honorary doctorate from a university this year.

I love her CTI albums "Say You Love Me" and "Havana Candy" as well as a rare single she cut for United Artists "The Family Tree". She also appeared in the Isley Brothers concert film "It's Our Thing" that was held at Yankee Stadium in 1969.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:05 pm:

KevGo-I forgot about that single on CTI-"Do you love me", that was the cut!

SB-What about Patti on "Moody's Mood For Love w/ George Benson (from the Give Me The Night Album) That was a good album by the way!

Handsome

By Des (81.152.238.36) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:07 pm:

There were some good albums from her in the 80's (some Jam&Lewis productions on at least one of those "the heat of heat"????).....ironically,Kev,she did an album of Standards (if my memory isn't too bad) -- a very 80's sounding album of tracks like "They can't take that away from me" --- v.possibly synth horns....but an album I recall liking.....
My wife's going to kill me , but with all my vinyl of the stuff we often talk about here being up in the loft,I'm gonna have to get it down and make it available for referencing purposes....I'm going to blame soulfuldetroit ......or my Cyber Mistress as my wife now calls it....
Des

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:16 pm:

What's Up Des!

I forgot about Heat of Heat, and she did do an album of standards, which I have (can't remember the title). One of the songs is "Till there was You". Patti is alos featured on the Handels' Soulful Celebration cd, on the song Who May abide or something to that effect

Handsome

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

Oops - 1Wicked - that was my bad. I posed the question about Patti on the other thread "They Really Can Sing." My Bad. Ya'll know how mixed up I gets (Gets & gots is AL talk) sometimes. LOL!

Yeah - I don't blame Patti - but I find it astonishing that she decided to cater to the Japanese fans. I also read an article recently - where many Japanese are starting to appreciate the black singers and folk more these days - so she must be in a hot spot. Good on her - and good luck to her. I mean - she is learning Japanese? Wow!

Handsome - I'm not sure I recall the tunes you mentioned. Can you hum a few bars? What was that Tempt' song w/Hum Along in it? LOL!-

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:34 pm:

SB- I just realized I help you mix threads (Patti Autin), but it's all good, ha ha!

Like the Temptations song Hum ALong & Dance..I can dance & sing (really)!

Handsome

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:39 pm:

But can you do both at the same time Handsome?

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:42 pm:

Like A Pro!

Handsome

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:47 pm:

May haps as a background pro - 'eh Handsome?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:50 pm:

Handsome - I have never listen to the Temptations song "Hum Along & Dance." It's on a couple cd's I have. Maybe one day I will.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:05 pm:

SB-Seriously I can sing...I've been doing it for for 24 years now.

Hey SisDetroit-I have that "LP", and haven't played it in a while myself...Time to pull out some vinyls!

Handsome

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:05 pm:

Des:
I have the albums "The Heat Of Heat" (Jam & Lewis) and "The Real Me" (standards). I enjoyed both - especially "Honey For The Bees" from "The Heat Of Heat" album (a tune that was originally recorded by Allison Moyet).

SB:
The Japanese are digging R&B/soul/funk like there's no tomorrow. The label I work for has sold funk reissues on vinyl by the pound to Japanese importers (literally hundreds of records). I see Japanese customers in my record store wearing afros & dashikis! I never thought I'd see the day....

SisDetroit:
The Tempts "Hum Along & Dance" is a funky toe-tapper with only one verse - "There's no words to this song/All you have to is dance and hum along."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:23 pm:

Street of Dreams is the cd I have by Patti w/ some standards on them.

Handsome

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:39 pm:

Handsome:
Check out the CD "The Real Me" which was Patti's last album with Qwest Records. It's full of standards (such as "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes") that she sings so passionately. The album was released in 1987.

In 1989, she singed with GRP Records and made some fine albums including "Through The Test Of Time."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Des (81.152.238.36) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 06:48 pm:

Funnily enough I'm listening to "Love Is Gonna Getcha" right now with "Through The Test Of Time" on it -- that's the last album I have of hers (and the only one on cd)
Scary,Huh???

By 1Wicked (66.27.27.22) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 07:00 pm:

SB: Patti didn't go out looking for THAT audience...they came looking for HER !! (LOL) Soooo...I'm sure she feels that she may as well cultivate it & let it grow. To learn the language (to any degree) and the culture could pay big dividends.

By Heikki (62.71.79.239) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 04:29 am:

Hi!
Patti has released many cd's in the 90s and 00s, including
- Jukebox Dreams (Pony Canyon)
- In & Out Of Love (Concord Vista)
- Street Of Dreams (Platinum Ent.)
- On The Way To Love (Warner Bros.)
- For Ella (Concord/Playboy Jazz)

She was recently here in Finland and performed with a BBC jazz orchestra and did her "tribute to Ella" thing.
She also mentioned that her grandmother was born in a Finnish town called Vaasa, so practically she's a Finn.

Best regards
Heikki

By Heikki (62.71.79.239) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:38 pm:

Hi!
As an addition to the above, I still think that her best album was her first one for CTI, The End Of A Rainbow.
Best regards
Heikki

By Mark Speck (198.211.138.52) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:33 pm:

Surprised that no one mentioned Ringo Starr!

I had to laugh at a quote from a local reviewer who did a piece on Macy Gray's latest CD. He said that her voice was a cross between Billie Holliday and Daffy Duck!

Best,

Mark

By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 04:43 am:

...LOL Mark S...yea, I'd say he just about hit that one on the nose...

By thecritic (144.170.81.8) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 08:28 am:

People who can't sing:
The Spice Girls
Mick Jagger
Paul McCartney
John Lennon
Eric Clapton (really sucks live)
Shitanny Bears (oops, I mean Britanny Spears!)
Shakira

How you know when they can't sing:

If a singer never gives a live performance or they lip sync when they do then you know that they cannot sing and are being marketed by looks alone! Some even lip sync and still sound bad! Many of your fresh faced, white boy groups fall into this category.

The music business is not about music, it's about image, looks, marketing and $$$ MONEY!!!

By longgonelover (65.238.58.19) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 09:08 am:

Can't sing: Any of the Jacksons
Ashanti
Michael Bolton (dental drill!)
Usher (has he any concept of "notes"?)
Kelly Rowland (too bad, she's so pretty).
Sting (don't get me started on Mr. 2 notes!)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:53 am:

thecritic:
Have you seen any of the Beatles performances from the Ed Sullivan Show? Their live concert film from Shea Stadium? The live album recorded at the Hollywood Bowl in 1964 AND 1965 (now available on the The Beatles Anthology Vol. 2).
The Rolling Stones appearances on Ed Sullivan, Shindig, the TAMI Show film, the Music Scene TV series and their recent tours? Eric Clapton with Cream at Royal Albert Hall in 1968 or live in concert at Madison Square Garden during the 1990s? Or seen any of these acts in concert at all?

These folks did NOT lip-synch during any of these gigs and gave more live performances than most bands combined. Want proof? Rent any Ed Sullivan Show featuring the Beatles or the Stones, the Rolling Stones concert film Gimmie Shelter or Eric Clapton's appearance on MTV's Unplugged from your local video store.

The music business is a combination of all things you mentioned with the music being the root of it.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Steve LItos (209.100.86.4) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 04:10 pm:

The Critic: From the fall of 1960 to about the fall/winter of 1963, the Beatles were a "working" rock n' roll band. They performed live shows virtually everyday during that span. When they were in Liverpool, sometimes they performed a lunchtime session, an afternoon session, & an evening performance all in the same day. When they went to Hamburg, it was a house band situation & they were required to play 7 hours a night. If they couldn't sing, they would starve (or have to get real jobs). After they got really big, they were limited by the sound systems of the day. They couldn't be heard by the screaming masses nor could they hear themselves sing.
In their solo careers both John & George were reluctant performers, but Paul has always had more of a Mr. Showbiz attittude. I've seen him in concert 4 times & I think he sounded better in 2002 than in either 1989 or 1990. Paul's voice isn't what it once was, but he has always been able to sing. Check out the Wings live version of "Maybe I'm Amazed" from 1976. It's great & it went top 10 in 1976.

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 06:49 pm:

Ditto Steve.

It's quite amazing that McCartney has retained most of his range -- it's the tenors who have the most problems keeping their voices intact, I understand.

At 60something, he's singing songs he first did when he was a very young man, and still hitting the notes. Excellent vocalist, then and now.

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:10 pm:

Hey Sue

I hear you, and totally agree on the state of McCartney's vocals. This cat hasn't lost a bit of his chops. Always thought he could be a very soulful *sanga*, when he chose to be (like those times when he channels his inner Little Richard). His ab-lib on "Hey Jude" is another prime example. Also, his 80s duet w/ Sir Stevie (Not "Ebony & Ivory" but ) a cut entitled "I Like What You Do To Me"-- man! He blew me away on that one. Actually had me guessing at times, like: McCartney can get down like that? It was hard to tell which one was which? The mutual vamping was just that strong. No need to remind the folks on planet Earth, not just any singer can hang note for note & hold they own beside Sir Stevie. Yeah, Paulie's still got the pipes. I don't own much of his music, but like his classic song goes just "maybe I'm amazed."

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:33 pm:

Great post, moanman ...

Yeah some of those early Beatles songs when McCartney was channeling his inner Little Richard as you say, were the bomb. Like the breakdown on "I'm Down" ...
I love too that he always gives total props to James Jamerson as a bassist, and the whole Motown stable.

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:28 am:

Sue,

I find it interesting that White English performers tend to be far more soulful singers, noteefor note, than their American counterparts. Many proudly acknowledge & give (proper) due to the Black artists that came before them. I've read so many interviews by people like McCartney, Gabriel, Jagger, Sting, Winwood, Annie Lennox, Lisa Stansfield, etc, that glorify Black R & B artists in way that is worshipful. Thus, when they emulate them, it becomes less a rip-off, and more an homage.

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:12 am:

It's interesting, MM.

Someone like Annie Lennox, I think, is tapping into a Celtic soul thing. Some of those old Scottish folk songs are pretty sad and scary.

But I wouldn't discount the American blue-eyed soul brothers and sisters; the Righteous Brothers, Daryl Hall, Mitch Ryder. A very unappreciated guy from Detroit, Scotty Morgan of the Rationals. They cut a version of Otis' "Respect" and released it before Aretha's came out.

A Detroit native radio friend in Orlando played the Rationals' "Respect" for another Florida radio guy recently -- the second guy was blown away and played it on his station, that caters to 20 and 30somethings. The phones rang off the hook.

Scott's one of the great "shoulda been a contender" stories out of Detroit.

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:09 pm:

Unfortunately, I never hear of Scott. My loss, I'm sure.

And I wouldn't discount the blue-eyed soul cats & jammer kids, at all. They definitely have their place. With the exception of the Righteous Brothers, while many them adapted a "Black sound", none of them "sounded black" in a that goosebumping way, that surprises you when you discover they're not. The first time I heard, say Lisa Stansfield, oh my damn! I just KNEW that was a Sister. My bad.

Mind you, I'm not saying a White artist should/must/or has to sound Black, for me or other Black folks to dig them. George Micheal comes to mind, here. Never thought he sounded Black, but Black folks surely dug his sound.

I think my personal record, tape CD collection probably does contain more Brit than American folks of that ilk, tho. Person preference, maybe.

On Annie, she is a musical triple-threat to my ear: a Songtress, Stylist & Belter, whenever the mood hits, & that's why I love her. Who could forget her duet with Aretha "Sisters Are Doin It For Themselves"? Much like McCartney ( & the aforementioned G.M.), you just don't team with an artist of the Stevie/Aretha caliber unless you *know* you can hang & bring something to the table. Otherwise, it's an embarrassment.

Yes, some of those Irish ( & Scottish) lads & lassies can blow. Sinead & Bono ain't no slouches either. Nor the Welsh crooners, i.e. Tom Jones.

Peace

By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:40 pm:

Moanman,
The common thread in those Irish, Scottish and Welsh singers is the Celtic thing. I think there's something to the innate soulfulness of those folks. Van Morrison doesn't sound black of course, but he grew up loving black American music and is an extremely soulful Irish singer ...

Of course I'm speaking as someone of Scots-Irish descent (laugh) ...

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

Sue

Cool. Way to be proud of your heritage & the folks who have been performing & putting the music down something righteous & propa for years.

I've always held a behalf of a certain cross-pollination (if you will) between Irish/Scottish/Welsh Celtic cultures and that of the African-American. How else would you explain the wealth of singers who belt from the gut of their tattered histories & leave goosebumps of *knowing* & *feelin* on the skin? How else who one explain Irish clogging & Af-Am tap-dancing?

Finally, how do you explain how a Black cat like me ( who can't speak any other tongues), can mimic a perfect Irish/Scottish accent with ease & aplomb???

Coincidence? I think not. ;-)

By Des (217.42.15.152) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 01:47 pm:

Hey David Meikle (and others) -- is there any way of getting a Moanman Soundclip on the Forum?
His modest claims of 'perfect' mimicry should be proven and enjoyed by all interested Members/Contributors - what do you think??!!!!
I feel a Shrek imitation comin' on -- would that be accurate Moanman ???
Ah huvnae goat much hope fur an akkurit Glaswegian accent.....
See yeez later,n'that.
Des

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 02:24 pm:

Hey, I never meant to generalize in my post, as if all Irish/Scottish/Welsh people sound alike. That's as ridic as saying all Black folks sound alike. Cleary we don't. I'm also well aware of changes, inflections & regional dialects. So, with that consideration, actually my using the word "perfect" was just a tad, a tid-bit, a smidgeon of hyperbole, Des. Aiight?

Not backin down, tho. I have bartended at many a pub in my day, count several Irish cats as friends & buddies, & have a kanck for a touch of verbal osmosis. As my friend Robby said of my linguistic skillz, "it's a bit a Jamaican spice mixed a dash of Ryan's Hope, but keep workin on it."

Aiight, lads & lassies?!

Peace

By Des (81.152.91.64) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 04:19 pm:

Hey,Moanman - absolutely no offence taken.
I was just messin' with you.
I'm sure it would be fun,though,to hear your repertoire.....
Take care
Des

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

Hey Des-

No offense here, either. I just realize how cold words can appear on a screen, and people can't see or hear the jest implied in such statements.
And yes, the "repertoire" be bangin'. ; - )

Also, for the Sue-woman ( & that's a little nick I tend add to folks names depending on one's gender), I hope you didn't take my words as a harsh generalization, or some cultural ignorance, either.

As Digable Planets rapped: "I'm Peace Like Dat"

"I'm out, I'm out, I'm out..."
Moanman

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

Oh no Moanman, I didn't see anything you posted I disagreed with ...interesting food for thought. I think there is some cosmic Celtic-African-American linkage. The parallels between clogging and tap-dancing -- good point!

Annie Lennox was on the Charlie Rose show not long ago, talking about the strain of sadness/soulfulness in Celtic music, it was interesting ...

By moanman (24.44.218.110) on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 09:13 pm:

Cool Sue-woman...

Sorry I missed Annie's interview. Charle Rose is good at getting an artist to come out of their shell. There so much about Ms. Lennox I don't know. Her mystery is still intriguing though.
I hope she comes out of that sadness/depression/alcohol thing. She's someone I want to stay around for a long time.

peace

By Conrad72 (63.97.240.1) on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 02:18 pm:

Probably been addressed above, but what's with the "artist" doing the "Whoo Oooh Wah Oooh" scales while the cast of 1000 screaming extras are the ones carrying the tune & singing the chorus??? Arrrrggghhhh!