By SB (206.214.1.115) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

I loved the way my main men used to sing the Standards. In retrospect - I think it was a smart move and great idea, as it relates to Berry & Berger requesting the Tempts do the "Mellow Mood" album, and sing other standards at some of their shows, and especially @ the Copa.

Below are the standards my fave group of all time could deliver. I loved them all. Was there another group that could have done as well as my babes?


**********************
Hey Girl
Your Wonderful Love
Who You Gonna Run To
Hello Young Lovers
Love Is A Hurtin� Thing
Ol� Man River
Somewhere
The Impossible Dream
Try To Remember
That�s Life (Who used to sing this one � Sammy, Frank, Dean or whom?)
What Now My Love
With These Hands
For Once In My Life

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:11 pm:

HEY SB!!!...I'D HAVE TO SAY THAT PAUL WILLIAMS RENDITION OF "FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE"...WAS AS AN EMOTIONAL PERFORMANCE OF THAT SONG AS COULD POSSIBLY BE PERFORMED BY ANYONE!!!...JUST IMAGINE IF PAUL...AS A SOLO ARTIST...HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO RELEASE THAT AS A SINGLE!!!...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:19 pm:

SB,
For some reason I was in the studio with them the night they put the vocals on Old Man River. My brother was engineering the date so maybe I was there to visit with him. At any rate it was a lucky break for me because I love the song and the Tempts were doing it proud that night.

By SB (206.214.1.115) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:22 pm:

I agree you two. But - ironically - I wasn't real sure the two you all mentioned were considered standards. "Ol' Man River" - was a dinosaur wasn't it? LOL!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

SB,
You must be rather young. What do you consider to be standard material?

By SB (206.214.1.115) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

"Somewhere" - Paul Williams = brilliant.
"The Impossible Dream" - Ditto & My - my!
"Try To Remember" - Sweet Eddie = Lovely.
"What Now My Love" - Ditto.
"For Once In My Life" - Paul Williams = Touching.

They sung "With A Whole Lot Of Soul", on the above. Too much!

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/temptsmusic/Tempts.html

By SB (206.214.1.115) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:49 pm:

Ralph - I remember hearing it in an old movie that was out in the 30's or 40's - right? After that, I didn't remember hearing it again until the Tempts sung it on their Live album.

I am not that young, but I'm still spry and young at heart. Btw - I've been meaning to correct something I posted last week in the post about being snatched back to another time and place. I said I was born in the middle of the 21st century. I meant the 20th. LOL! Now I got my centuries mixed up. If that don't tell you that I am getting up there Ralph - then I don't know what will. I think I'm catching the alzheimer's.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:59 pm:

SB,
When I was a young up and coming musician Standards were songs that were popular in the 20s, 30, and 40s and had stood the test of time. We would learn these songs from what were once refered to as " Bibles " or " Black Books " and today are called Fake Books. At the time the books were illegal ( talk about being guilty of aiding and abetting the pirates ) and were purchased " under the table " at all music stores. We learned to play a lot of really great old " standards " out of these books. It helped round us out as musicians for what was coming down the road.
By the way, don't sweat the Alzheimers. You're fine.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

RALPH AND SB!!!...THAT MUST HAVE BEEN QUITE A SESSION...MELVIN SINGING "OLD MAN RIVER"!!!...THAT SONG BECAME THE "STANDARD" AND STAPLE OF ANY ASPIRING BASS SINGER IN ANY SOUL GROUP DURING THAT ERA!!!...I GUARANTEE YOU THAT ANY BASS SINGER AUDITIONING FOR ANY GROUP...EITHER SELECTED...OR WAS ASKED TO SING..."OLD MAN RIVER"!!!...STU(STILL ROLLING ALONG)BASS

By SB (206.214.1.115) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

"What Now My Love" - Paul Williams - & not Sweet Eddie. My Bad.

By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:05 pm:

Ralph,

Fake books were probably the worst kept secret of all time, but amazingly, the good ones are still illegal and get sold "under the table".

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:05 pm:

Stu,
It was cool. Just one of those strokes of luck for me to show up at the studio that particular night.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

Steve,
Yeah it was funny. Everyone had them. They were invaluble to us at the time though because we were still playing a lot of weddings and dances etc. I wasn't aware that there were still some out there that were not legit.

By Common (209.2.55.172) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:28 pm:

Hello everyone,

"What Now My Love" was done with David & Melvin, who does doing the spoken parts.

Peace!

By SB (205.186.128.186) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:33 pm:

Ralph - you are really an old gumshoe, as it pertains to sittin' in on some whoopin' good and thrillin' times. Thank you for what you said.

Some more:

Moon River
Somewhere Over The Rainbow
Hello Dolly - (Btw did anyone read where Carol Channing admitted that her father was black?)

See - I get it.

I just love my homies Paul & Eddie. STUBASS - remember in Otis's book - where he told about the time the C5 were touring in B'ham, and they stopped in to visit Paul's family (And eat some great food - I thru that in)? Paul had been telling them that his father could sing bass as deep or deeper than Melvin. Otis admitted that Paul was right.

Someone should start a thread about the late and great Paul Williams. I start too many threads as it is. But I loved him just as much as I did Eddie - it is just that Eddie lived longer so I garnered more memories of him.

And how about the fact that many of these men's father were preachers or ministers?

I saw a bit on Marvin Gaye on VH1 or MTV last night. They were showing some sexy artists of the past. Ziggy Marley spoke on how much he dug Marvin - and why he decided to cover one of his songs.

I'll holla back. I gots to go cook before my daughter gets the "Jaws/J's", as in cops an attitude - gets mad or angry (mouth all poked out). The guys in Germany used to say that all the time. LOL! To be so thin - that girl can eat - and neva gains a pound. LOL!

By Eli (141.151.62.121) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:38 pm:

The original version Ol Man River was sung by the great Paul Robeson.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:47 pm:

Hey Folks:
First of all, a thank you to SB's Common - she lent me videotapes that contained several clips of TV appearances the Temptations did throughout their career.

Second of all, keep in mind that the Tempts performing "Ol' Man River" (which was sung, with equal dignity, by Paul Roberson & William Warfield) as well as "Swanee" (Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, 1967) was done with one goal in mind - to reach the mainstream adult MOR audience (the folks with the most cash to spend on music)and to ready them for gigs at the Copacabana, Cocoanut Grove, the casinos in Las Vegas, etc. These tunes were from Broadway musicals which were, at that time, at least 25 to 30 years old.

Finally, I gotta share this among the great performances of our dear Paul Williams - if anywone remembers the ABC-TV show "The Hollywood Palace" he sang lead on a swinging version of "The Best Things In Life Are For Free". Paul was killing the audience with his soulful lead vocal.

To Ralph:
Man...I wish I was a fly on the wall when you were there with the Tempts that night!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

PS - The TCB special is STILL the bomb! "For once in my life, I won't sorrow hurt meeee..."
- Paul Williams, 1968

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

Hey KevGo:

I'm glad you're enjoying the footage. My favorite Tempts performance is "Swanee". Their harmony is flawless on that performance.

Peace!

By Galactus (207.144.253.114) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:38 pm:

Yeah, I love those standards. Lots of groups from that period were trying the same thing.......many of those sorts of recordings seem to be forgotten, but so many of them are very, very good. Some of Jerry Butler's early stuff covers this ground and is well done.

Does anyone know what the deal is with the "Ol' Man River" recording? I have the Temptations' "Emperors of Soul" set......as well the "In A Mellow Mood" CD. But the recordings are slightly different. Two different takes? Or recorded at different times? Personally, I prefer the "In A Mellow Mood" version.....but both are fantastic of course.

By dvdmike (68.23.177.218) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:47 pm:

Does anyone know who did the individual arrangements for the "In A Mellow Mood" LP? I know Oliver Nelson arranged "Hello Young Lovers" and "A Taste Of Honey" and H.B. Barnum wrote the chart for "Ol' Man River." But what about the rest of the songs? And where was the album done. It certainly wasn't Hitsville Studio A.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

dvdmike:
Don Costa was also an arranger on the "In A Mellow Mood" album.
Maybe Russ & Ralph Terrana or HW can shed some light on where the instrumental tracks were recorded. Ralph did say that the Tempts cut the vocals for "Ol' Man River" at Hitsville (he was there when Russ was engineering the session).
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SB (205.186.128.186) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:49 pm:

KevGo - thanks for your run down - but why didn't you catch my error above?

I wrote this:

Who You Gonna Run To (Great Standard)

When I meant this:

Who Can I Turn To (When Nobody Needs Me)

LOL! You know how I be losing it sometimes.

No - but for real - couldn't Paul just make one fall out w/the feeling? There was no one like him. He put his everything into those type of songs, and he pulled it from deep w/i. IMO - he ranked right up there w/Sammy and the like when he sanged those type songs, and there is no question - in mine eyes. Lordy be!

And - after listening to " The Impossible Dream" again - I think that is the late great David Ruffin - singing - although - I do know that Paul had a rendition of it also. But....let's give David his props.

IMO - and in another time and place - Paul's "Don't Look Back" & Melvin's - "I Truly, Truly Believe", would have been standards, for real.

Welcome aboard the "Soulship Ahoy" - Galactus.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:18 pm:

Kev,
The vocals to Old Man River were done at Studio B ( Golden World ). I'm assuming the track was recorded at Studio A but I can't say for sure.

By Russ Terrana (198.178.8.81) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:31 pm:

I think the tracks for the album that "Ol Man River" was on was cut in New York. I could be wrong because it was alot of years ago. I do remember the night the vocals were put on. Melvin was such a gentelman and friend. There are many good bass singers, but nobody can do what Melvin did!

By SB (205.186.128.186) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:42 pm:

Hey Russ. I agree w/you - for Melvin was such a great "Gentle - Man." Back in the day - the folks I was around played his "I Truly, Truly Believe", like it was an anthem of some kind. We Truly, Truly loved it, and I'll always remember that and the song. And of course his "Ol' Man River", was sensational.

I forgot to mention "Yesterday."

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.11.195) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:56 pm:

I can't recall the Album/CD, but the one where the Temps performed
In This World
At Last
What A Difference A Day Make
I think some of those answer your ???.

By SB (205.186.128.186) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:57 pm:

I was waiting on this link. I'll just say!

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/temptsother/tvstills.html

By Des (217.42.9.42) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:58 pm:

People(I'm not sure of gender behind every name)/
I've got to ask a few questions on this thread,cos I never was tempted(no pun intended) to purchase "off-message" Motown music -- and until something persuades me it's worth seeking out and reappraising,I really always thought "What are the Tempts or any then-contemporary Black r&b group doing by dipping in to often cheesy songs(I thoroughly dislike some of the "Standards" selected to cover.....unhip,to say the least eg What Now,My Love/Impossible Dream) to which they(or should I say "their Arrangers/producers") did what??? Roughened or sweetened for a DinnerPlate audience???"
I never rated these cuts artistically and,honestly,don't "get them" at all.
I have more opinion,but I'd like to see what you guys that have posted here have to say on this (you will doubtless say "ill-informed") view.
To negate the need for the questions....I'm 45.Was heavily exposed to Francis Albert/Tony-B/Mel Torme...with a coupla albums of Billy-E in the house....alongside molto jazz (Miles/Gil-E/Gerry-M/Shorty Rogers/Stan Kenton/Stan-G(Pre-bossa).....
PS/ I'd think most would say Frank's "That's Life" was the definitive version - any nay sayers?
Des

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 08:39 pm:

RALPH - Could you explain a little more about those books? Why were they illegal?

Thanks, Sis

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:19 pm:

Sis,
The books were illegal because the song writers and publishers were not being paid any royalty for the sale of their music. Today it's a different deal and all proper fees are supposedly paid.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:54 pm:

HEY SB!!!...DIDN'T READ THE BOOK...JUST GLANCED AT IT...AS I WAS TOLD BY SOME THAT WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO KNOW THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF FICTION INVOLVED...BUT THATS ANOTHER STORY...BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT PAUL'S DAD COULD SING BASS LIKE THAT!!!...WE HAVE DISCUSSED PAUL TO SOME LENGTH HERE...AND TWO POSTERS ON THIS FORUM...KAS AND COMMON HAVE A PAUL WILLIAMS SITE THAT IS QUITE NICE!!!...I WAS FORTUNATE TO KNOW PAUL...AND WHAT A SUPER NICE PERSON HE WAS ABOVE AND BEYOND HIS UNIQUE TALENT!!!...STUBASS

By Nancy (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:56 pm:

Hey SB you are right they are one of the few groups that can really nail the standards and Stu I just got through reading Otis williams book on the Temptations he spoke about paul's rendition of for once in my life

By SB (205.186.133.7) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 10:29 pm:

Hey - STUBASS. I check back in and you tell me you knew Paul. What!!!??? Pray tell - what was ya'll's relationship like?

I remember my cousin calling out the name - "Baldwin Hills", now that you mention it. As soon as we came down that hill and within a mile of it, there was Magic Johnson's theater. You are so right. And it was sooooooo pretty and clean too.

You also mentioned that you heard Otis's book was fiction. Which part? His pre-Temptin' days - his Temptin' days - or the post CF and beyond Temptin' days? IMO - all that included when mentioning his realtionship with David - Paul - Eddie & Melvin (As a group) may have filled one chapter. The rest was pre and post his relationship w/them - IMO.

No one can call Otis a liar about many parts of the book. The man is writing about his life after all. I don't think anyone can tell him how he feels either. One can disagree about his take and recollection about people - places and things - and what not - but not about his life. Again - the entire book was not about his time spent w/the C5.

I am not here to defend Otis - but I would venture to say that some of what he wrote about his relationship w/the aforementioned was true. He first wrote the book in 1988. Eddie & David were still living. I have heard that they took issue w/some of what was written - so they should have busted his azz out about it. One or both of them should have wrote their side of the story/parts that had to do w/them.

For the most part and in my opinion - Otis could have told more secrets - if you will - than he exposed - but he didn't. I think he truly tried to just explain how they got together - some of their time shared - and why the C5 couldn't make it.

Yet.....I didn't appreciate all he wrote about and that is the truth - but over all - he was just trying to explain his tenure w/several men that sung in a singing group. None of them were kings or saints. They were just men that God knew would sin and were not perfect before they were even conceived, and to include Otis. I don't think commiting adultry is a great thing. What he admitted about himself & Paul was a sin. David's vice was an addiction - and what did he tell on Eddie where he committed a sin? I didn't appreciate his busting Paul out like that - but I forgave him - and I think he was just trying to be honest - yet.....

IMO - Otis praised Paul more than any other person in his entire book. Paul was Otis's mentor in many ways. He stated that Paul had an old SOUL - and I agree. Yet - some think he dogged Paul - to include Eddie. I have nothing but my perception to go on though - and I know in my heart that though I was and still am partial to Paul & Eddie's and their legacy - neither of them were perfect. Only God has a perfect Heart.

I love(d) Otis too - and was a little put out to learn that in Eddie's park in B'ham - there are statues of all the other C5/HOF6 Tempts - but him. I find that sad indeed. I loved them all.

Otherwise - tell me more.

I'll holla bacatcha' later though.

Nite.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 11:23 pm:

QUICK TAKE SB!!!...OBVIOUSLY...THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY OTIS...AND CERTAINLY WOULD INDICATE HIS OWN PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE THOUGHTS...AND THIS IS UNDERSTANDABLE!!!...THERE HAS BEEN SOME DISCUSSION AS TO JUST HOW FACTUAL MANY THINGS IN THE BOOK AND MOVIE WERE!!!...SOME THINGS IN THE MOVIE...OBVIOUSLY NOT CONNECTED TO REALITY... COULD BE PASSED OFF AS "LITERARY LICENSE"...TO PRESENT THE SUBJECT MATTER IN A MORE ENTERTAINING AND DRAMATIC LIGHT AS TO ENHANCE THE VIEWING EXPERIENCE...BUT THEN THAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED "ENTERTAINMENT"...AND NOT ANY SORT OF "FACTUAL" BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH!!!...OTHER ASPECTS IN THE BOOK...I HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE SOMEWHAT CLOSER TO THE SCENE THAN PERHAPS YOU OR I...HAVE STATED TO ME AND OTHERS...THAT MANY IMPRESSIONS GIVEN IN THE BOOK...WERE VIEWED MUCH DIFFERENTLY BY MANY OTHER PEOPLE...THEN OTIS'S PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS!!!...THATS ALL I CAN REALLY SAY ABOUT THAT!!!...AS FOR PAUL...I WAS FORTUNATE TO MEET HIM IN MY TEENS...AND MY OWN MUSIC PLAYING DAYS!!!...HE WAS ALWAYS FRIENDLY...ENCOURAGED MY BASS PLAYING...AND WOULD TAKE GOOD CARE OF ME AND SOME FRIENDS WHEN WE WENT TO TEMPTATIONS SHOWS!!!...SADLY...I RAN INTO PAUL AND HAD LUNCH WITH HIM SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH!!!...HE SOUNDED OPTIMISTIC AT THAT TIME...BUT I GUESS IN HINDSIGHT...PERHAPS SOMETHING WAS WRONG THAT I FAILED TO DETECT DURING THAT LUNCH!!!...BUT PAUL WAS ONE OF THE NICEST PEOPLE I'VE EVER MET!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:37 am:

RALPH - Thank you!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:33 am:

Des:
The Temptations' "In A Mellow Mood", along with the Four Tops "On Broadway" and the Supremes' "Sing Rodgers & Hart" albums all had one goal - to attract the older MOR (middle of the road) audience that had the dollars to spend for entertainment (among other things). The MOR audience was a powerful demographic in the eyes of advertisers and radio broadcasters.

The arrangements that were scored for these Motown recordings were done by the best in the business. For example, the Temptations "Mellow Mood" album employed three giants from the jazz/pop world - Oliver Nelson, Don Costa & H.B. Barnum. These men arranged for the best in the business at the time - Frank Sinatra, Nancy Wilson, Lou Rawls, Jimmy Smith, Wes Montgomery. So, this album was anything but cheesy.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:42 am:

I need to get a copy of "In A Mellow Mood". Is the Four Tops "On Broadway" available on album only?
I have the Supremes sing Rodgers & Hart (the complete sessions). I love that album because it put the ladies in a different light (vocally), and they did well.

By TonyRussi (68.210.2.160) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

Des, I think I Know what you mean and I agree with KevGos' response 100%.I never purchased those LPS in the 60's and I never liked it when "My" artist did "old folks music".I use to just cringe at the James Brown shows when he would do "If I Ruled The World".I can accept the "standards" a little better today.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 01:15 pm:

DES AND TONY!!!...IT ALL DEPENDS ON JUST WHAT ONE'S MUSICAL PERSPECTIVE WAS BACK IN THOSE DAYS!!!...WE GREW UP...LEARNING MANY OF THE STANDARDS DURING OUR PIANO LESSON DAYS...AND OF COURSE...MY BROTHER AND MYSELF PLAYED PARTIES AND BAR MITZVAS WHERE YOU HAD TO PLAY STANDARDS...AND UTILIZED THOSE "FAKE BOOKS" THAT RALPH HAS SPOKEN ABOUT!!!...ALSO...WITH JAZZ BEING A LARGE INFLUENCE ON US...IN ADDITION TO THE BE-BOP AND FUNK TYPES OF JAZZ...MANY OF THESE STANDARDS WERE FAMILIAR TO US WHEN THEY WERE PLAYED BY JAZZ ARTISTS OF THAT DAY!!!...THUS...WHEN THE TEMPTS...TOPS...OR SUPREMES DID AN ALBUM OF STANDARDS...THOSE TUNES WERE FAMILIAR TO US...AND WE HAD PERHAPS A GREATER APPRECIATION OF THOSE GROUPS INTERPRETATIONS OF THEM!!!...STUBASS

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

Tony:
Speaking of James Brown, do you remember his 1969 album "Soul On Top"? It was a big-band album James cut with Louis Bellson's Orchestra - Oliver Nelson was the arranger/conductor. The album consisted of standards, a Hank Wiliams classic ("Your Cheatin' Heart") and two JB hits done big band style - "It's A Man's Man's Man's World" & "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag". It's a real swinging album (unfortunately not reissued on CD!)and I used to play it on my jazz show when I did the college radio thang.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

w.r.t. SB's question about "That's Life". The fact that it is a "standard" usually means that everybody sings it, right? In this case, it was a big hit for Frank Sinatra (#4 Pop) in late 1966. It was one of his two or three biggest pop hits of the 60s, and, if my reference is correct, was one of only two instances where Sinatra charted R&B (the other was "High Hopes"). The Temptations version was released less than a year after Sinatra's, and was a perfect choice at the time for a pop/MOR crossover track.

Regards,
Ken

By Tony Russi (68.210.2.160) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:35 pm:

Hey Kevin, I just couldn't get into "Soul On Top" nor the LP JB did with the Dee Felice Trio...now today I could probably listen to it more open mindedly...Stubass, I understand where youre coming from...I just didn't appreciate that style at that time and never purchased those LPs.

By SB (205.186.131.228) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:50 pm:

TonyRussi - thanks for mentioning that song JB used to sing - "If I Ruled The World." I remember that one.

Livonia Ken - thanks for verifying for me that Frank Sinatra sang - "That's Life." And you are right - for that was a big hit for him.

STUBASS - thank you for your response - and Fair Enough. I hope you didn't think I was calling you out. You just prompted me to convey some of the things that I felt about Otis's book.

And of course - IMO - you had no way of knowing what was on Paul's mind when you had lunch w/him. And, you must know that his family has never been fully comfortable w/the official findings as it relates to his death. Ok - one of my fave cyber mates?

Anyway - in retrospect - I too - am glad my fave group of all time branched out. All it did ultimately and IMO - was enhance their careers, open up new avenues and help make many folks perceive them as all around singers. When has everybody in the world dug the same people, places and things that everyone else in the world did? To each it's own, but I was and still am impressed.

They are talkin' about Jimi Hendrix on CNN now. His fans called him the King of the guitar. He is making more money now, 30 years after his death. Some in the family are fighting over the proceeds being derived from all sorts of things being sold in his name. I'll say!

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

THE ONLY OTHER SOUL ARTIST THAT SEEM CONFORTABLE SINGING STANDARDS TO ME ARE[MARVIN,BILLY STEWART,THE FOUR TOPS]ALOT OF OTHER SOUL ARTIST SOUND UNCOMFORTABLE.

By TonyRussi (68.210.5.120) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

I loved Billy Stewarts "Summertime" and "Secret Love" which by definition are "standard" songs BUT the arrangements/productions vocal interpretation made them like new songs.I don't know if I'm explaining what I mean correctly but I think ya'll know what I mean.

By Des (81.152.238.59) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:49 pm:

Good evening everyone,I was nervous my input would be lonely and ignored (if not reviled).....thanks all who added to my line of conversation.
I'd reiterate here that it isn't for the hell of it and,having sampled the little snippets on the Tempts 'angelfire site' this afternoon,Kev,I'm not convinced that even thoroughbred Arrangers can do much with some of the tunes selected....coupled with what I would agree with Tony Russi to be an almost discernable discomfort with what they're doing.....or,having thought a little here,maybe it's my and Tony's discomfiture and not the Tempts', just cos I/we feel they had no valid "artistic" reason to be in this genre - just widening their listener/buyer base --- by entering the supperclub market. Nah,Kev it still just doesn't make it for me. I accept the rationale,but I can't espouse the quality of the product....I guess that last part is my view in a nutshell. Sorry,and I am willing to try again - promise.
Des

By Galactus (207.144.253.114) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:56 pm:

I know exactly what you mean, Tony.

In the 50s era, it's amazing how many hits were re-interpretations of older standards. The Platters were famous for this.

Perhaps the best example to illustrate your point that I can think of is "The Way You Look Tonight" (the B side of "A Little Bit Of Soap") by the Jarmels. If you had never heard that song before, you'd think their version was just another great soul song......and never guess that Sinatra and many other folks had recorded that one in a very different manner.

By irvmilne (81.152.139.149) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

hey stubass o wise one of soul musics great artists,your such a lucky person to have had lunch with the great under rated PAUL WILLIAMS my wife is soooooooooooo jealous of you ,his take on "once in my life" is stunning as is "last one out is broken hearted" which none of the greats that are mentioned on these pages could do better that is one hell of a song and performance and im a big ruffin fan even he would have to step aside and let PAUL take the mike

By irvmilne (81.152.139.149) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:15 pm:

you guys im coming over to detroit next thursday if you wanna say hi or take abite to eat i would be glad to meet up with you and have a soulful talk, irvin milne scotland

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:21 pm:

THANKS IRVMILNE!!!...I HAVE SHARED A FEW OF MY PAUL WILLIAMS EXPERIENCES ON THIS FORUM...SO NOT TO BORE ANYONE...BUT I CAN SAY AGAIN THAT PAUL WAS JUST AN EXCEPTIONALLY NICE PERSON...WHO SEEMED TO WANT ACCEPTANCE FROM EVERYBODY ELSE...AND WOULD DO WHATEVER HE COULD TO MAKE THOSE AROUND HIM COMFORTABLE IN HIS PRESENCE!!!...THE FIRST TIME I MET HIM...HE SPENT AT LEAST 45 MINUTES...AFTER A SHOW...TALKING WITH ME AND SOME FRIENDS ABOUT MUSIC AND THINGS IN GENERAL!!!...HE READILY OFFERRED UP HIS FRIENDSHIP...AND ALSO HAD A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR...BUT THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY A SERIOUS SIDE TO HIS NATURE AS WELL!!!...I NEVER REALLY APPRECIATED PAUL...AT THAT TIME...FOR HIS GREAT PERFORMING...AS DAVID AND EDDIE WERE MORE THE MAINSTAYS OUT IN FRONT OF THE GROUP...BUT YEARS LATER...I'VE LEARNED TO REALLY APPRECIATE JUST WHAT A TREMENDOUS TALENT HE WAS!!!...STUBASS

By irvmilne (81.152.139.149) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

stubass your not boring my wife she enjoys hearing about him as shes besoted by him not just as a singer as a person even though she was too young see him perform, just listening to him sing and the emotion that come out with each performance that he was allowed to sing on ,ive heard rumours from someone who has been in the motown vaults that there is thousands of tapes that we havent heard yet so lets hope theres more quality like the cellerful of motown that was released over in the uk this year, and a lot more temptations tracks with paul on..

By irvmilne (81.152.139.149) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:46 pm:

it just shows what kind of guy he was to take time out to speak to you ,it was like when edwin starr and martha reeves took time out to speak to myself and my daughter when they were in scotland last year once again true artists show up all these so called ""superstars" of today who wouldnt give you the time of day ,after that day my daughter was as high as a kite and was telling everyone who would listen who she had met that day ...

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:50 pm:

There is something magical to me about the voice of Paul Williams,each time i hear something by him that i've never heard seems like i'm hearing him for the first time,he's the only artist that has this effect on me,as i've stated before when the other Temps sang you danced and smiled,but when Paul sang you paid attention,i think mesmorized is the word!

By irvmilne (81.152.139.149) on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 05:18 pm:

r&b your so right i find that with a lot of temps songs wether it be david paul or eddie even other motown artists you just keep going over each song and find something different and you revalue it even other artists as well i get this , even OTIS'S LOVIN BY THE POUND thats another great record thats under rated .

By SB (206.214.2.19) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 05:39 pm:

Check out this ex jockey's tribute to Frank - Sammy & The Rat Pack.

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/2325/index.html

Scroll down and click this:
"Hear Frank Sing His 5 Best Hit Songs With Nancy."

Livonia Ken - Listen to Frank singing "That's Life." Classic, and it sent chills up my spine.

And please click on Tony's story. It is indeed a sad one. This man truly loved him some Frank Sinatra. He writes that his page gets 8000 hits per day.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 05:55 pm:

SB!!!...I JUST READ AN INTERESTING ARTICLE BY SINATRA'S EX-VALET/PERSONAL ASSISTANT...WHO JUST WROTE A BOOK ABOUT HIS 15 ODD YEARS WITH "OL BLUE EYE'S"!!!...HE SAYS SOME INTERESTING STUFF...INCLUDING HOW FRANK WOULD *NEVER* APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE...EVEN IF HE WAS WRONG...HE'D JUST SORT OF LOOK AT YOU LIKE HE KNOW HE WAS WRONG...BUT WOULDN'T VERBALIZE IT!!!...ALSO...THE GUY GOT FIRED AFTER WORD GOT BACK TO FRANK THAT THIS VALET WAS CAUGHT DANCING OR SOMETHING WITH FRANKS JUST ESTRANGED WIFE...MIA FARROW!!!...STUBASS

By SB (206.214.2.19) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:05 pm:

STUBASS - I might have to cop that book. I'm gone go broke w/all the music and books I'm a craving.

Btw - that site just went down. It'll be back up in an hour. LOL! I'll have to sign Tony's guestbook.

Paul sure could sing them standards. They was right up his alley. He was indeed a true showman. The word was that when Paul sang "Don't Look Back", he always brought the house down. Folks began screaming his name and hollering out and what not. And it has also been reported that Adam Clayton Powell once stood up to clap w/tears rolling down his cheeks - when watching Paul let loose on that song, and others even started crying.

By Des (81.152.238.33) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

STU/ I heard about this book,but haven't seen much in UK media about it yet.When was it published in USA?
The period this guy was with Frank is musically pretty damned sensational....and "socially" (avoiding more sexsational language),must have been equally awesome !!!!
Does this guy really say anything of major revelation....or is it sanitised. I agree that the "no apology" anecdote is interesting and supports the bad AND good side of Frank.....the fact that you knew HE knew is good......kinda like Brando's Godfather saying everything wid da eyes.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:14 pm:

ONE THING HE DID SAY WHICH SURPRISED ME DES AND SB...WAS THAT HE SAID HE NEVER FELT ANY TYPE OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION FROM FRANK...OR ANY OF FRANKS OTHER FRIENDS...*EXCEPT* SAMMY DAVIS JR...WHO HE SAID ALWAYS REMINDED HIM THAT HE WAS BLACK!!!...STU

By SB (206.214.2.19) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:22 pm:

STUBASS - that is interesting, and I wonder what that was about w/Sammy. Did he state that Sammy indeed discriminated against him, and if so - in what ways?

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

SB!!!...ACCORDING TO THE BOOK..."MR.S MY LIFE WITH FRANK SINATRA"...THE VALET...GEORGE JACOBS SEEMS TO IMPLY THAT SAMMY WAS JUST MORE INSENSITIVE TO HIM THAN THE OTHERS!!!...HE ALSO REPORTS THAT HE ONCE CAUGHT JFK AND PETER LAWFORD DOING LINES (COCAINE) IN A GUEST ROOM OF SINATRA'S ESTATE!!!...LAWFORD ALLEGEDLY WINKED AT JACOBS AND SAID..."DON'T TELL FRANK"!!!...HE ALSO TELLS A LOT ABOUT JFK'S WEIRD CURIOUSITIES...WHO WAS DOING WHOM...WHICH HOLLYWOOD STARS HAD "BLACK" LOVERS...ETC...ETC!!!...

By Des (81.152.238.33) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:47 pm:

SB/ Can't believe Sam performed a type of inverted racism.....I'd expect him to be "privately reminding" this guy of his blackness (and maybe even telling him how priveliged he was.......let's see what STU says).
Franks' lack of overt racism is in line with his appreciation of music irrespective of colour,creed etc etc --- Franks' conversion to Republicanism,however,is still a little painful to my sensibilities......and maybe undermines his colourless,classless,creedless attitudes up to that point.....seems he saw an"in" to the White House via the Kennedy's and when he was "dropped" he somehow changed politics.
Interesting to really find out about those times and Franks' part in them,but I really don't think we'll ever know the "truth" if such a definitive thing exists.
Des

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:58 pm:

DES!!!...FRANKS CONVERSION TO REPUBLICANISM WAS...IN MY OPINION...THE RESULT OF TWO FACTORS!!!...FIRST...HIS SNUB BY THE KENNEDY FAMILY...ESPECIALLY BOBBY WHEN JFK WAS NO LONGER AROUND...AND TWO...HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH THE REAGANS...PLUS...A POSSIBLE THIRD REASON...THE DEMOCRATS GOING "HIPPIE" IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!...CHICAGO "68" WAS DEFINITLY NOT SINATRA'S STYLE!!!...HE WAS BASICALLY A STATUS QUO KIND OF GUY...STRONG ON CIVIL RIGHTS...BUT WHEN THE PARTY WENT FAR LEFT...IT MOVED OUT OF FRANKS LEAGUE!!!...THE THING THAT IS REALLY SURPRISING WAS SAMMY SUPPORTING NIXON!!!...STUBASS

By SB (206.214.2.19) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 07:01 pm:

Thanks STUBASS. Maybe the valet wanted to rap w/Sam as a brotha - and Sam didn't want to go there. In Sam's eyes, perhaps he didn't feel he wanted to get to know Frank's valet better and on a one on one basis - for whatever reason. Who knows. At least he gave no direct examples.

Des - Frank fell out w/the Kennedy's over the Sammy slight, amongst other things I've heard. I have no take on why he decided to change his politics ultimately though. Maybe he learned and knew too many democratic secrets.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:28 pm:

SB!!!...ACTUALLY...THE SAMMY SLIGHT CAME MUCH EARLIER...DURING THE 1961 INAUGURATION!!!...IT WAS LATER...WHEN JFK...ON THE ADVICE OF HIS DAD...BROTHER BOBBY...AND OTHERS... CHANGED PLANS TO STAY AT FRANKS PALM SPRINGS ESTATE AT THE LAST MINUTE...DUE TO CONCERNS OVER SECURITY (EVEN THOUGH SINATRA SPENT A FORTUNE TO GET THE PLACE PREPARED)...AND MORE IMPORTANTLY "IMAGE"...NOT WANTING TO PUBLICLY TIE JFK INTO FRANKS WILD WAYS (ALTHOUGH WE NOW KNOW THAT JFK WAS RIGHT THERE WITH HIM)!!!...FRANK INSTEAD STAYED IN L.A. WITH BING CROSBY (A REPUBLICAN AT THAT)...AND SINATRA BLAMED PETER LAWFORD (KENNEDY IN-LAW) FOR THE WHOLE MESS...AND DETERIORATED FRANK AND PETERS FRIENDSHIP (POOR PETER WAS JUST THE MESSENGER) FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:19 am:

ERR...FRANK DIDN'T STAY IN L.A....HE STAYED IN THE DESERT TOTALLY PISSED OFF!!!...IT WAS JFK...OF COURSE...WHO STAYED WITH BING!!!...STUBASS

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:03 pm:

Stu:
One thing to consider when discussing Sammy Davis, Jr.

At that time, even though Sammy was part of the Rat Pack and endured some of the group's crude racial humor, Sammy was very much his own man when it came to the treatment of fellow Black Americans and himself. He threatened to picket Las Vegas casinos if they didn't allow Blacks to patronize (he won). Sammy was also rallying for Dr. King and the Civil Rights Movement as early as the late 1950s (much to Hollywood's consternation). Even in Sammy's autobiography, he wrote about finding his assistant George Rhodes crying in his hotel room because the bellhop called him "Sir" (and he was never called THAT before, according to the book).

Finally, the HBO film "The Rat Pack" (which gives a blow-by-blow account of Sinatra & company) showed Mr. Jacobs antagonizing Sammy when he was resting at Sinatra's estate (Mr. Jacobs presented Sammy with "breakfast from Mr. Sinatra" - a full-plate of spaghetti & meatsauce).

My point - maybe Sammy was thinking, "I'm busting my a-- to make life better for my fellow people of color and the best that [Mr. Jacobs] can do is be Sinatra's 'boy'?"

I'm with SB - Sammy may have wanted to say to Mr. Jacobs that he could do better than being Sinatra's valet because Sammy felt that all people of color could strive better than being subservant.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

YOU MAY BE RIGHT KEV!!!...I WAS JUST REPORTING WHAT I READ OF AN INTERVIEW WITH MR. JACOBS AND HIS TAKE ON THE SUBJECT!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

KevGo - Someone had to do the job. It may as well have been Mr. Jacobs. That was a respectable job, and he served, not as a non-paid slave, but as an employee. All of us are subservant to our employers.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

ACTUALLY...ONCE YOU LEARN TO DEAL WITH SINATRA'S SENSITIVITIES...IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOTALLY COOL GIG!!!...GOOD MONEY...JET SETTING ALL OVER...AND MEETING SOME OF THE MOST FAMOUS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD!!!...AND AS SIS SAID...SOMEONE WAS GOING TO DO IT!!!...BY THE WAY...GEORGE RHODES WAS MUCH MORE THAN SAMMY'S ASSISTANT...HE WAS HIS MUSIC DIRECTOR...AND A VERY WELL RESPECTED ONE AT THAT!!!...STUBASS

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

SisDetroit:
I'm not debating whether Mr. Jacobs' job was respectable or not. I'm just relaying what Sammy may have been thinking at that time.

Over the years I've read many books (from "Yes I Can" to "The Sammy Davis, Jr. Reader") and seen many interviews with SDJr. Sammy during the 1950s and 1960s was on a tear because of the horrible discrimination he endured in the Army and a determination to make life better for himself and his fellow race - even if meant questioning and challenging fellow Black Americans who, in his view, were still "jiving and grinning" to get by. For example, he attacked Louis Armstrong for sticking to enterntaining and not raising hell over the treatment of Black Americans. Granted, Sammy was dead wrong for doing so because Armstrong DID challenge President Eisenhower over the harrassment the Little Rock Nine endured but it didn't stop him from challenging other Blacks whom he thought were pandering to the lowest common denominator (Sammy felt that Ebony/Jet Magazine were giving him a bad rap for wanting to intergrate and told publisher John H. Johnson directly).

Therefore, Sammy probably thought it was bad enough that he endured Sinatra's humor but to see Mr. Jacobs getting in on the joke was probably seen by Sammy as "Black On Black Crime". Sammy was putting up with Sinatra's crap so that Mr. Jacobs wouldn't have to.

Finally, this is no means a knock towards those who had to take certain lines of work to make a living. My paternal and maternal grandfathers were housecleaners and janitors for the rich and wealthy of Pittsburgh and put up with a lot of bull---- so that my Mom & Dad didn't have to. So I'm not knocking Mr. Jacobs for the job he held within the Sinatra Organization - I'm just showing a possible view held by a man who was hell-bent on helping his race strive for upward mobility.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:51 am:

To get back to the thread of Temptations and standards. Alternate versions of "Ol' Man River." Not sure how many, but there are several. I suspect there were alternate versions of every song recorded, even "My Girl." The question might be how many alternate versions of each song were made. The question would be how many are left. I know they keep releasing alternate versions of songs as "never previously released."

I really like "Swanee" and wish the current Tempts would do it in their concert routine.

By R&B (138.238.41.215) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:14 am:

GOOD DISCUSSION,DID GEORGE MENTION THAT AFTER BEING FIRED BY FRANK,THAT HE TOOK EVERYTHING THAT FRANK HAD GIVEN HIM OVER THE YEARS AND BURNED THEM,ALSO IT WAS SAID THAT SINATRA DIDN'T FIRE HIM IN PERSON,BUT HAD SOMEONE ELSE DO THE DIRTY DEED.

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:27 pm:

SWANEE???THAT WOULD BE A BIT MUCH.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:40 pm:

R&B:
The Temptations performed "Swanee" in their shows at venues such as the Copacabana, Cocoanut Grove, Las Vegas casinos. It was mainly for the MOR (Middle-Of-The-Road) crowd.

They also performed "Swanee" along with their then-hot single "(I Know) I'm Losing You" on the Smothers Brothers TV show in 1967.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:42 pm:

And if you think that's a bit much - Jackie Wilson recorded a version of "My Yiddish Mome" on an album of "standards" in the early 1960s.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:45 pm:

HEY KEV!!!...I WONDER IF JACKIE WAS SINGING THAT TUNE WITH MY AUNT LENA IN MIND (SHE WAS ALMOST LIKE THE PROTOTYPE)???...STU

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:49 pm:

SWANEE[YUCK]!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:54 pm:

Stu:
Considering who Jackie's manager/producer was at that time, I wouldn't be surprised.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

I finally got my copy of the Tempts In A Mellow Mood...it is excellent!

P.S.-aretha does a nice cover of "That's Life", w/Erma & Carolyn in the background.


Handsome

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

Hansome - You are on the money. Mellow Mood was excellent when it was first released, and we gave them 150% credit without thinking of anything or anybody else, other than those classic voices and the ability in which they delivered to their fans.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 05:38 pm:

Thanks SisDetroit!

Handsome

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:03 pm:

Handsome:
The Mellow Mood album is indeed a classy album. My favorite tunes is the opening track "Hello Young Lovers" (which they performed on their "Live At The Copa" album), Paul Williams' heart-wrenching "For Once In My Life" and "A Taste Of Honey" which sounds like Kendricks, Ruffin & company were ready to take on the Rat Pack.

Have you heard the Tempts' 1995 CD "For Lovers Only"? Great standards and Broadway tunes and Ali-Ollie sounds great on "Some Enchanted Evening".

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:12 pm:

KevGo-I have For Lovers Only. I was at a party 3 or 4 years ago and heard Some Enchanted Evening, though I thought the name of the song was Never Let, Never Let her Go (which seemed like the hook). At any rate, I knew it was Ali, and just figured it was the Tempts, though I didn't think they had any new cd out. I found it the next day, and told some of my friends. Clubs & some radio stations play it for "Stepping Music".

That's for keeping me in the loop Kev!

Handsome

By Scratcher (65.238.127.54) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:21 pm:

The "For Lovers Only" album is an entirely different animal than the Mellow Moods album. Yea, they do standards on FLO but they don't do them MOR they do them with soul and are trying to appeal to the demographic that buys their recordings not some crowd 20+ that demographic. FLO is the best album the Tempts have done in years, it was much better than the more popular CD after it that had the hit "Stay" on it.

While I can appreciate the singing on Mellow Moods I knew the concept of a soul group doing standards had already been done by the Vibrations. In fact many of the songs the Tempts did on MM are carbon copies of what the Vibrations did on an earlier LP. It was cool to like MM during my teen years though many didn't care and ignored the album. I didn't buy it or any of the other campy, showtune, MOR albums the Tempts and other Motown acts recorded during that period except the Supremes at the Copa. I was given the Four Tops On Broadway by somebody who purchased it thinking it was a regular Four Tops album. (She was going to break it.) The only song on it I can listen to til this day is "Make Someone Happy."

And please don't you guys retort back that I can't appreciate the music and all that garbage. In my teens I started a large collection of jazz and not the Herbie Mann stuff (though I liked him), but Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders, Don Cherry, Sun Ra, Miles Davis and others. My grandfather like singers like Vic Damone, Joe Williams, Nat King Cole, Johnny Hartman, the Mills Brothers, etc. I heard MOR all the time growing up--at home. I just didn't appreciate the Temptations singing them at the time. Myself and other fans couldn't have care less if they ever played the Copa or the Catskills.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:35 pm:

Scratcher:
You grumpy old soul ...No one is gonna jump on you like it's a gangwar. Your opinion is your opinion.

I appreciate the Tempts singing standards no matter if it's from the Mellow Mood or the For Lovers Only albums. Is there a difference? Sure there is - one definitely reflected the MOR/jazz of its time (and I'm a big fan of Oliver Nelson's and H.B. Barnum's arrangements) and the other shows the Tempts doing standards there own way. Like I said, your opinion is your opinion and no one is here to say otherwise.

Kevin "In A Mellow Mood" Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.238.127.54) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:49 pm:

The Vibrations' rendition of "Misty" was kinda popular and it appeared on an album of standards they made that a neighbor had. When the Tempts came out with Mellow Moods I thought they were seriously copycating.

The Temptations was the finest group as far as slick moves and all. But it always amazed me why groups that were far more entertaining (the dancing groups) like the Vibrations, the Contours, The Five Dutones, the Olympics, etc. never became bigger than they did. When either of the groups I mentioned hit the stage it was instant excitement and your mind and eyes never wandered. All except the Vibrations (who would sing the ballad from time to time) was instant action and always in motion. The Jackson Five duplicated this excitement and then some later on.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:56 pm:

I haven't heard the Vibrations, but in the 60's I was also into jazz also. I loved jazz. I have never limited myself to one genre. I loved gospel also. I also loved blues.

By Des (217.42.9.37) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 07:23 pm:

Hey,Kev/S'funny how this aspect of the Tempts career can alienate some,don't you think?
I see you are,indeed, in mellow mood and we're not gonna get too heavy on the Forum for a while now I guess.....but I continue to be surprised at how you seem to find there to be some 'real' musical merit to this aspect of the Tempts career.Truly,I find the tunes selected,for the most part unhip and the performances/arrangements at best 'ordinary' (I'll try to avoid the 'cheesy' thing)....I said so already and I'd also say to yr assertion that the arrangements were by 'big guns' of the day (with references from Sinatra/Nancy Wilson etc) and somehow their c.v.'s validates their work on Mellow Mood --- nope,it doesn't.....To elaborate on my surprise - I've seen so many posts on the 'list' type Threads and thought 'this guy's very hip to a similarly wide selection of music that I love too'....and then comes Mellow Mood......as you say,to each his own --- but is there anything else in your memory banks that makes you like this particularly?
I'd like to know.
Des

By RD (65.150.228.141) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 07:52 pm:

"Misty" by the Vibrations was popular in Cleveland too. It's a MOR song and the Vibrations sings it straight but Ricky Owens' falsetto makes it sound like a natural tune for them. I actually think they were going after the sound the Flamingos accomplished on "I Only Have Eyes For You," which also sounds natural for them and not MOR ish--though it is.

The Temptations, however, on that album was definitely not trying to appeal to people who liked "Farewell My Love," "Paradise," "Beauty's Only Skin Deep" or "Since I Lost My Baby." It made older people who hadn't before appreciate their voices and singing skills do so, but they didn't necessarily run out and buy the LP or flock to Temptations' concerts. It sold to a portion of their core fans who bought anything with Temptations on it at the time; I've yet to see somebody 70 years old or older with Mellow Moods in their collection.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:02 pm:

I've borrowed "Misty" by the Vibrations from my brother. I'll give it a listen.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:07 pm:

Is that Ricky Owens on lead? Who hit that last note?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:11 pm:

I like Misty. It reminds me of the Platters.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:47 pm:

SisDetroit, Scratcher & company:
The Vibrations' "Misty" was released on Okeh Records and produced by Carl Davis.

I asked Carl about the song years ago and he said that was one of his most favorite sessions when he was the A&R chief at Okeh. Carl was trying to do with the Vibrations and Walter Jackson what Gordy later achieved with the Tempts' "Mellow Mood" - appeal to the adult MOR audience.

Des:
The only folks that seem "alienated" are those who have heard others do the same thing before with better effects. As for the "Mellow Mood" album, I dig the marrying of the Tempts vocals with the arrangements that could've been given to Nancy Wilson, Lou Rawls or Frank Sinatra for that matter. Some liked this particular twist, others didn't. Even the Tempts were somewhat hesitant to cut the album for fear that they would lose their core audience - but they didn't. It even did well on the album charts
(#1 R&B Album/#13 Pop Album, Billboard). Oliver Nelson, H.B. Barnum and Don Costa wrote some damned good charts and the Tempts showed their versatility to the max.

I asked my older brother James why did he buy three different Tempts albums all at once when he was a teen (Greatest Hits, Live!, Mellow Mood). He told me that each album offered something unique and special. Maybe that's why I like this album and some others do on the Forum as well. Those who don't, that's their opinion.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.150.228.141) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:59 pm:

KevGo, the point you are missing is that the Tempts never did appeal to MOR audiences. Sure they cut a MOR album but it didn't get much play on easy listening stations. If they had appealed to MOR audiences as you say they did they would have cut a Tempts in a Mellow Mood II, III or IV. A second album of Tempts' standards wouldn't have sold as well. The first was almost like a novelty.

Carl Davis indeed was going after the MOR crowd when he cut those songs on the Vibrations but he did it without sounding dare I say it "cheesey." "Misty" by the Vibrations does not sound contrived to me. Neither does "I Only Have Eyes For You" by the Flamingoes.

By Des (217.42.9.37) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:00 pm:

Hey,Kev/ I'm heading to bed....been on the Forum awhile tonight - can't sleep.
Thanks for takin' yet more time to address my question - I know you already pretty much covered it before.....and I hope you see where I'm coming from is only from that aspect of surprise - which is only in my mind and,clearly,a matter of individual taste.......I'm going to try again -- don't know if it's mentioned here,but save me time -- is Mellow Mood on cd?

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 10:25 pm:

rd,
The Temptations did appeal to the MOR crowd. Look at their audiences today. Attended recent concerts of just the Tempts alone with sell-out crowds plus waiting lines of people hoping to purchase last minute cancellations. Those crowds were diverse in every sense of the word, still the majority were undeniably MOR.

If you're thinking in terms of the music they sang then and that which they sing today, it's still a combination. Paul Williams claimed their music in the early '60's was more rock-and-roll than rhythm-and-blues. I feel he should know. So perhaps they never were 100% anything but excellent singers.

I go into the high scale ladies dress shop in town, and the same store in towns all over the U.S. and guess what they are playing-- Temptations. Not Frank Sinatra but Temptations. The music is good. Why shouldn't everyone want to hear it?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 10:49 pm:

I can't think of one song that the Classic Tempts recorded that I would consider rock N roll. Will someone name one for me?

By RD (65.150.228.141) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:03 pm:

Janesbe:

The Tempts audience today are the people who grew up with them from teenagers and are around the same age or 10 to 15 younger they the originals would be. They are not the people who were listening to MOR in the sixties.

The Temptations hit their stride around 1967 if the MOR crowd of that time was big fans of the Tempts than 70 and 80 year old people would populate Temptations' concerts and buy their recordings and that's not happening.

I was a teenager when the Temptations recorded In A Mellow Mood and as a teenage I didn't really appreciate it. You're speaking in retrospect about the album nearly 40 years later as an adult. Why is this point so hard for some of you to see?

By RD (65.150.228.141) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:09 pm:

Sis, I also would never classify anything the Temptations ever made as Rock n' Roll. Maybe Paul was sauced when he said that. The early Temptations stuff was a combination of R&B and doo wop that by the 1963 had hybrid into what we now know as soul music.

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:11 am:

Another thing I enjoyed about this Mellow Mood cd (and Motown) was how they could take a cover or even a Motown song among the artists and change the arrangements, producing another rendition, yet it was the same song.

Examples (from Mellow Mood):

For Once in my Life (Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves & Four Tops)

Somewhere (the Supremes)

I'm Ready for Love (Martha Reeves & The Vandellas)

What Now My Love (Barbara McNair, Four Tops)

The Impossible Dream (Diana Ross & The Supremes w/The Tempts)

They are many other examples, but I'll stick to the thread at hand.

Handsome

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:24 am:

RD,
I think people have a tendency to believe that if they like a certain singer or group, then that singer's or group's fans stem from their personal age group and whatever other identities that they have. E.G. if I become a fan of X group at the age of 16, then the base of X group's fandom all started around the age of 16.

Go to a Temptations concert and you find people from age four to 90 something. At one recent sell-out crowd, a woman of 70 was looking for a ticket to buy because she had decided to bring along her granddaughter, age 8, who also loved the Temptations. Go back to the 1960's, and the people who loved the Temptations were of all ages. All fans don't necessarily go to concerts nor do artists perform in every town in America. But they could hear them on the radio and television. But people do respond to great music, and all Americans began to love the Temptations and the Motown sound, not just young America.

And these people of all ages did not think of the Motown sound as Rhythm and Blues or Soul music, just as American music, so very American. I suspect there were people who didn't even know the Temptations were black, just loved the sound of their voices harmonizing. I mentioned the Temptations to a woman in her 90's last year, and she immediately began to sing "My Girl" and knew every word. Now she was white and she would have been in her 50's in the 1960's, a long way from a teenager. But she loved the Temptations and their music.

Personally I hate labels. I think they instill limitations. Music is constantly evolving. It never stays the same. What's jazz? The jazz of today is sooo different from the jazz of the 20's, the 30's, the 50's, etc. When anyone is talking about jazz, it is probably a good idea to clarify the period. To further complicate music, instruments change. New instruments come into existence. And music composed 200 years ago will probably sound quite different played today.

Take language. Language is constantly evolving. Language changes daily. If you try to freeze a language, the language dies. Look at Latin. One's main problem with language is trying to keep up with it so communication is possible.

By RD (65.150.229.15) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:33 am:

Janesbe the demographic of people attending Temptations' concerts is not 70+. Because you see some at their concerts doesn't make that the norm. The 50 and 60+ fans you see at their concerts have been fans of the group since the sixties when they began. When 50 and 60 year old fans were listening to the Temptations in the sixties MOR fans were at least 15 years older then they were, those fans would be 80 to 100 now. Do you see many of them at a Temptations' concert?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:41 am:

RD:
My parents, uncles & aunts were part of that MOR crowd that bought records in the 1960s and they absolutely dug the Temptations' "Mellow Mood" album (which not only my then-teenaged brother purchased but our older uncles had the album as well).

The album along with their #1 TCB album with the Supremes must've appealed to a great number of people otherwise it would not have charted on Billboard at all. The majority of folks who purchased albums in the 1950s and 1960s were adults because of the price-points ($3.98 to $5.98 per album wasn't cheap in the 1960s)and the fact that most adults owned hi-fi equipment then. Therefore it did appeal to many adults and kids even if it didn't appeal to you or your friends when you were young.

MOR radio may have shunned the efforts of the Temptations and the Supremes because they were seen as Soul groups, not MOR as the Mills Brothers or Johnny Mathis. That did not mean there wasn't an audience, which is why Berry Gordy used television to promote these efforts, from Ed Sullivan to the Smothers Brothers to the Hollywood Palace. The success of TCB is the best example of Gordy's effort.

Also, in regards to concerts - the MOR crowd then didn't attend the Temptations concerts that were more youth-geared. They went to supper clubs, night clubs and the "big rooms" found in five-star hotels, which is where the Tempts peformed for the MOR crowd. The Copacabana, Cocoanut Grove, Manhattan's Waldorf-Astoria, the Fountainbleu, the casinos of Las Vegas & Atlantic City - that's where the Tempts performed for the MOR crowd one day and at the Apollo, Uptown, Eastman Theatre and college campuses for the young crowd the next day.

Des:
Yes - Mellow Mood is on CD. It was remastered & re-released in 1998.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.150.229.15) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:53 am:

Kevgo:

As I said in a previous post we can all cite exceptions to a demographic but exceptions are not the norm. Most of the people that purchased the Temptations in the Mellow Mood were some of the same fans that purchased their previous LPs. Motown knew that anything with Temptations on it would sell a certain amount of copies. They were not then (the sixties) and are not now supported by people who were fans of MOR in the sixties.

I don't understand your point about the MOR venues in the sixties at all. Motown was definitely trying to get their acts more gigs in those venues because they paid more than the theaters on the chitlin' circuit like Leo's Casino. Motown had direct financial interest in doing this because they had management and booking contracts on their artists. The fact is Motown was never able to penetrate the lucrative MOR club market with the Tempts like they wanted to. When acts like the Tempts became bigger the point became moot because they were then able to fill bigger venues than clubs (chitlin' or MOR).

I get my info from people in the business, first hand, I don't take much stock in Motown books except as guides. Much of the stuff you read in Motown books was derived from Motown's PR department in the sixties run by Al Abrams and simply can't be taken as gospel.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:56 am:

RD:
You misunderstood Janebse's post. She never said the demographic of the Temptations was 70+ - she said that the audience can range from 4 to 90 and that she spoke to a woman who was 70.

You and your friends then weren't the only ones on the planet who liked the Temptations and bought their records. The Tempts appealed to a wide number of people young and old. Granted, "Mellow Mood" and other MOR efforts didn't appeal to you, that's fine. It didn't mean the efforts failed - chart positions don't lie, especially since they are based on sales.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 12:05 pm:

RD:
I don't just look at the books. One of my colleague/mentors here in NYC did publicity for Motown in the 1960s and helped promote the Supremes' appearance at the Copacabana among other gigs. When I started my career in record retail I worked alongside record distribution salesmen who had Motown as their account in the 1960s and 1970s. I don't believe everything I read and never did (number one rule in journalism).

You have your information, I have mine. We can agree to disagree but no one out here is the utmost authority. You have your perspective based on your sources, I have my perspective based on my sources. And it's all good.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.150.229.15) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

Kevgo, you obviously only respect the concept of "demographic" when it fits your argument. When It doesn't you throw it to the wind and cite examples outside of the norm.

Janesbe did imply that because a 70 year old woman (which by the way isn't that far from the Temptations' fan base since Otis is plus 60) was some type of proof that a significant amount of people that age attended their concerts.

The Temptations and Motown's MOR efforts doesn't appeal to most of the northern soul and rare collectors who frequent this cite but for some reason they remained silent (you know who you are). It's what gave Motown the diss of producing white pop soul while masquerading as black owned soul label. Those MOR albums you and others talk so highly about on this forum were putdown and ragged on in every northern soul zine.

Chart positions don't tell the whole story either. It depends on if the sales justified the money put into the project. You can sell four million CDs like Michael Jackson did and the company still loses money if they promoted it to sell 10 million.

By Des (81.152.238.39) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 01:45 pm:

Hey RD/
Scratcher and I,to a lesser informed degree,have commented - possibly a little disingenuously - along the lines of your last post.
I'd say some posters just enjoy Mellow Mood for what it is and some,like Kev,are attaching some additional musical credibility to that project.
This isn't something I think Kev's gonna suddenly say "Oh yeah,of course,what you're saying is true and despite me telling you I like this album musically - and have described some rationale behind the project as I understand it - you're right --- it sucks".
You know he won't say that.Nor should you expect it.
I reckon this exchange has reached saturation point,huh?
Let's agree to disagree amiably on this one.
Des

By RD (65.150.228.6) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 02:09 pm:

Des,

I agree. But if he keeps coming back with this retrospective 40 years after the fact bullcrap I'll continue to defend my position. You may be trying to make friends here; I'm not. I just don't want history to be revised and twisted. Some of us, like myself, was there Des and know the true stories.

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:01 pm:

Well - I'll say this. My favorite group made the "Mellow Mood", album. It was done in 1967. That was 33 years ago. Some like(d) it and some didn't/don't. I loved it. And I am proud of the fact that my favorite group did it. Even if they weren't sure it was the best move for them at the time - they did it.

Of course - they didn't follow up w/another one - because they had more or less covered all of the best standards on the aforementioned album. And besides all that - five years later - three of the original members were no longer there. Plus - many of the singers whose standards they sung - had other folks besides the Tempts singing them, and almost in a way to pay tribute.

Someone mentioned - "For Once In My Life." I loved the way Sammy sung it, although I did love Stevie's version also. Perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea to sing a song that was sung by Sammy and the like - because these cats could sing. Just because some didn't appreciate - Sammy - Bing - Dean - Frank - Nat - Tony - and others - doesn't mean that everybody didn't. I loved them (Men) all - and enjoyed hearing my fave group singing their songs, because they were familiar to me and I loved them.

I think MY bottom line is that they tried it. I don't know how successful the MM album was commercially - internationally or any other - ally - I was impressed by it, because they were my fave froup of all time.

And to say that the Tempts were trying to please a pop audience - cross ova or whatever - so what? Many folks to include Ella Fitzgerald and the like would sing sungs that were made by someone else.

Whateva makes my boat float - may not work for someone else - and this is why it is best to always remember to learn how to float on and alone if necessary.

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

Excuse me - that was 36 years ago.

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:08 pm:

Excuse me - that was 36 years ago. Wow!

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

I hear ya SB!

Handsome

By SB (205.186.128.67) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

Also excuse my spelling errors. I can spell better than the above - usually.

Btw - from Otis's account, Paul was the main one that didn't want to make the MM album and pander to the crossova audiences - sort of speak. LOL! I'll have to take Otis's word for it - yet look how it all turned out - for Paul sung many of the standards - and he reveled in the experience.

That was my homeboy - and he would light the joint up w/them. LOL!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:22 pm:

RD:
You have your memories and information - I have mine, and one is not greater than the other. It's all information.

If anyone is revising and twisting it is you, not me. I didn't revise or twist Janebse's post about demographics, you did. I didn't take what the Northern Soul gang say is good or not, you have. If anyone is starting any "bullcrap" out here, it isn't me. There are many sides to a tale and somewhere hopefully in the middle is the truth - that's why I not only speak to the artists and producers but do my research and reach out to the executives who were there.

As I may have said before why not make sure these folks are taken care of today for what what they took care of in the past. We can make a list and dwell on who got robbed in this industry until this site crashes. I would rather focus on finding a solution to make sure these folks get their due and the next guy doesn't get burned.

If you don't want history to be twisted, make your point but this "I'm not here to make friends" attitude is only going to result in folks being turned off from the point you're trying to make.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.238.127.74) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:52 pm:

KevGo:

I agree with your thought about finding a solution to rectify the problems of the past in regards to artists getting their proper compensation. But it's never going to happened until the horror stories come out and people realize that most of the artists they love and revere were robbed blind. Some are under the false assumption these artists are sitting back and living comfortably off their royalties when the facts are most of them have never seen a royalty check.

By Des (81.152.238.36) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:58 pm:

RD - Ouch !!!
Not entirely called for,I think,but I appreciate you feel strongly and I'll stay out your way on this.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:08 pm:

RD:
If I may suggest this, since we are both about seeking justice for those who didn't get their propers - let's work on getting these folks together and getting their histories on tape. Then present these histories in some published form. Keep in mind that most journals won't publish these histories without having "all sides" investigated for the sake of balance but for the most part the artist who got screwed is seen in the more positive light.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.238.127.74) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:22 pm:

Kevin:

I'm convinced that the only way to make changes is through legislation. You can get some bulldog lawyer after some company for some artist until the cows come home and it'll only benefit that artist (maybe). While settling with said artist the company won't feel any need to settle with the 40 or so other artists he's robbing. Only the sqeeky wheel gets greased.