By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 11:00 am:

I happened to stumble into a piece on MSNBC yesterday that was reporting on the health of the Summer concert business. It seems the groups doing the best were the ones they termed the Baby Boomer groups such as the Stones, Kiss, Neil Diamond, Cher, Billy Joel, Springsteen etc. They interviewed some editor from Billboard and he said that these groups were capable of delivering a great concert as opposed to some of the new groups that could only go out and do a concert of their " hit ". He also talked about the problem of record companies not taking the time to develop new acts and how a group would be dropped if nothing too exciting happened on a debut album. Also, because these new acts were so underdeveloped and " green " they were not seasoned enough to be capable of delivering a good show. Hmmmmm...does all this have a ring of familiarity? And who was just saying that the old veterans were not capable of filling up the arenas? Speaking of " Old Veterans " I caught the last of Kenny Loggins on the Today Show this moring. Another class act veteran.

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 11:20 am:

Sony records , when they were still CBS, had a great artist development division which was headed by Sandra Da Costa.
At that time the company took great pride in developing their acts and I was proud to have done a lot of work with them in tandem with Ms. Da Costa.
CBS was a well oiled machine at the time and they
had a top notch staff who really knew what they were doing.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:01 pm:

A couple of problems with concerts as I see it....
....include cost. I know it isn't 1970 any more, but the idea of $40 to $100 per ticket sends chills through my checkbook. Ad in dinner and a couple of drinks each for club shows, and one could very easily spend $2/300 for a night out for 2. Casino shows run in the $40-$60 range around here. I mean, $38.50 for Paul Revere and The Raiders? Come on, now.
The other one is the venues themselves. $50 at The Gorge at George--a major outdoor venue around here--gets you a first come seat on the lawn, where you run the risk of not watching an act, but a bunch of ants on stage. Not the intemate concert experience I'm really looking for.

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 03:36 pm:

Hey Ralph. Here - here! Thanks for this thread. Let's keep it going.

We oldies but goodies have to "Stand" up for ourselves - and especially - you and the others that were/are in the music industry - and most certainly give/gave of yourselves as you all contributed to it. The things that were given to the music industry by artists of our most treasured past are still living, and they remain a part of us, because we will that they still live.

This is what the younger generation needs to understand, IMO. They need to understand that many of us still choose to enjoy the artists of old - and not because they were around entertaining us when we were younger - but because they made the best, the classic, and the most timeless music ever made. Sometimes it is hard to convince some of the younger set to respect many things of the past, and let alone music. Yet hopefully - if we teach them an understanding of things that they know not about - then in some cases - the respect for these things will come.

Part of my post from another thread that speaks on what you also have conveyed Ralph:

"Someone posted that there is no older set audience out there - so the older singers and musicians might need to move on out of the way. I beg to differ w/this - because just like there are some baby boomers on this board, and out there all over the world, that would pay to see groups that were making music back in their era and day - there are singers and musicians living that are willing to put on the oldie type shows. Someone has to be showing up for these types of shows - or they wouldn't be.

We shouldn�t presume that we need to tell these older artists to sit down anywhere, because there certainly is an audience out there that would pay to see them."

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 03:58 pm:

SB,
Getting back to Kenny Loggins. When they interviewed him he was asked why it had been so long since he released an album. He said that after he had been listening to what was going on on the radio he was certain there was no more room for his music and perhaps he should retire. Fortunately at the prompting from his young son he held off on the retirement plans.

He did his show with a simple band. Basically a rhythm section. No dancin girls " backin' that thang up " and getting in the way. just a simple band of obviously seasoned " road dogs " delivering the goods with great musicianship and musical harmonies. From the looks of the faces in the audience young and old alike, they were pleasing everyone.

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

Ralph I hear 'ya. And - I too am glad that Kenny changed his mind. Did not the classic and standard type singers of old keep it going as long as they could? I.e., Sammy - Frank - and the like - and at least until their sixties.

Please read what Otis Williams wrote about the state of affairs last year in 2002.

http://groups.msn.com/MotownTheTemptingTemptations/yourwebpage2.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/MotownTheTemptingTemptations

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

Thanks for posting that SB. Otis speaks for all of us here.

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:20 pm:

You're welcome Ralph. Ironically - Otis sure did hit on what has been discussed here on this forum here lately. For every negative thing said about the artists and music of old - let's come back w/the quickness and post something positive.

By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

Eli: I loved what CBS (and WEA).. did at that time. They released some great music from some great up & coming artists (like guitarist Tom Coppola & wife Googie).....but they either didn't want to spend the promotional $$$ or didn't know how. In far too many cases, once the music hit the streets, the artists had to fend (promote) for themselves. Case in point: WEA signed Jerry "Swamp Dogg" Williams, Rickie Lee Jones, ZZ Top, Nicolette Larsen, Marilyn Scott, etc. during a signing frenzy. The company released albums on all...did measly promotion...but seemingly only kept the artist who had the biggest numbers from a sales perspective. A little thought and a few $$$, and WEA could have had several heavy hitters instead of one.

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:16 pm:

Ralph - in honor of the memories we hold dear - I found this site interesting.

Click on "The Tempts sing Smokey" album - and brace yourself - because the sweetest falsetto singer to eva live (along w/the greatest backup singers to eva harmonize) will give you a good 'ole fashion thrill. And click on the different decades to hear more music.

Click around the entire site - and especially - "The Start Here", page. Evidently - the author of this site met w/some kind of trouble. A pic of Curtis will pop up - and a pic of Barry White is shown on the home page.

Check out the pics from Motown.

http://www.soulwalking.co.uk/Sounds%20Of%20The%2060%27s.html

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:35 pm:

OMG - this man has that song by "The Controllers", where my cousin played lead guitar. "Somebody's Gotta Win" (Click on the seventies and listen to it) Most of the guys in the group were from the same home town as my cousin = Fairfield, AL. He knew them for years - although he was the young pup when he traveled w/them.

And check out Archie Bell & The Drells. "where will you go when the party is over? - archie bell & the drells (from the LP 'Where Will You Go When The Party Is Over? 1976)

LOL! Lordy - but the song sounds pretty kool. Archie sounds just like I remembered him sounding. I can see him now with that tambourine in his hand. (And also check out "Strategy" - by Archie) I'll say!

By SB (206.215.14.237) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:39 pm:

OMG - check out Aretha's - "Angel." Go to the F's of course - in the seventies.

OK = that's it - I'll calm down now, or I'll be here all night. LOL!

By Des (81.152.91.71) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:55 pm:

I just wrote a post to "Sorry,but I have 2 say it" and now I hit this thread.....so much crosses over here!!!
There are so many opinions that are tangential to the subject of a given thread and I feel that sometimes I'm reading input that is just too entrenched and defensive.
A lot of what we(I say "we" deliberately) want to see happen is,indeed,in process.
Some/most/all contemporary Artists have musicianly support(Producers,hired-in writers...whatever) and those people who sample a Chi-Lites horn line,for example,are helping get exposure to the music we know was great when first released......Now,I'm entering a prospectively dangerous area here ---- Who was behind the Horn Chart/arrangement in the first place????? Not the Chi-Lites themselves I'm willing to bet.Rather,it'll have been a writer/producer (or set thereof) that constructed the song and the Horn lines --- ok,correct me if I'm wrong.
My point being,that the Chi-Lites weren't any more musical - as far as I know - than Janet Jackson,Beyonce etc etc.
Their vocal group legacy is great...but it's their pipes and not their musicianship that is the real legacy.
Equally,I don't overlook the fact that there aren't too many good sets of "pipes" out there at the moment and,it's fair to say,that where the "pipes" are good,if they don't look good,they haven't much chance of Mass Success.......But is Mass Success really feasible for "old Skool"-type new Artist? No it ain't. No matter how we cut it up,you can't replicate the sociological circumstances that produced the "hitmakers" of their day.
Harry Connick is/was no Francis Albert....
Whitney is/was no Aretha.....
R Kelly is/was no Stevie and so on and so on.

We should be happy the music we feel is,indeed,"classic" does get recognised today.These Samples will (and do) help widen the younger audiences' understanding and respect for their "elders' and their music - WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG AND,LIKE THEM,RESENTFUL OF EVERYTHING THEIR PARENTS LIKED!!!
Des

By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:00 am:

Des: You are sooooooo wrong on several points !!
In most cases, sampling a line will not do anything WRT exposure to the original. 99% of the time the line in question has been manipulated so much that it is unrecognizable. (Exception would be like the case of Will Smith using the ENTIRE track of Patrice Rushen's "Forget Me Nots" for MIB 1) The "Shaft" soundtrack (every track) is one of the most popular sources for samples to date...but you will never "hear" it...and probably won't see it in the credits (the print is too fine) OR no credit is given IF the artist feels he can get over (no way they'll know where THIS comes from....***See latest lawsuit against Dr. Dre***)
The Chi-Lites ? Bad choice. Tom Tom 84 (One of THEE best) wrote many of their charts, true enough...but most of their hits were written by member Eugene Record (some with the great Barbara Acklin) who was also a skilled bassist. The choreography and costuming also were the responsibility of group members. Oh...and I've seen Marshall play a melodica on stage....so I know they are more musical than anyone you mentioned.
Des, you are not understanding the primary complaint(s) about the the current crop of artists. (1) If it's in the rap genre, it (far too often) contains lyrics that are offensive and degrading to women and (2) far too many artists are "manufactured" and "flavor of the month". They may have the right look...but they have no redeeming musical qualities..and if it weren't for studio technology they would sound like a craoss between "Wolfman Jack" and "Alvin & The Chipmunks". The artists discuss on this forum were "overnight successes" that were years in the making. They sang on street corners, played clubs they were too young to get in legally, worked the "chitlin circuit", and more...just to get a shot...and when that shot came...they were groomed professionals. The sociological circumstances of which you speak only affect the material that's written....it has NO bearing on talent and preparation.

By SB (205.187.255.166) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:49 pm:

Great Sunday Morning All,

Des � I don�t think most of us here resented our parents� music at all. We appreciated what they appreciated. Hearing what our parents listened to is how many of us learned how to appreciate what good and great music was, period. Plus � I don�t think we resent the music of today. Many of us here just don�t appreciate it � as in admire it.

IMO � many artists that were from the baby boomer generation got started in the business because of whom they saw and heard. They listened to and respected what they heard their parents listening to when they were very young, and whom they heard on the radio, street corners, or wherever else they may have seen and heard them. Many of the artists that went on to sing solo and/or in a group, admired (and some idolized) the ones that came before them � and they tried to emulate the ones that came before them. They had aspirations of becoming as good or better than them � and there was nothing-wrong w/that. And again - they certainly didn�t resent the ones that came before.

The hip-hop and rap artists of today are involved and joined in a genre of music that was borne not too long ago. The music they are into today didn�t really get big until the early eighties � so they really had no one to emulate. There were no artists that came from that genre. And that is not to say, that they don�t have the right to covet or love the music that appeals to them today. It is just that in some folks� minds � there is no range to it. Most of it sounds the same. And many of the artists that are into it are truly not talented, as it pertains to actually being a truly great singer, and this holds true for the men and women. What do they aspire to accomplish really? Many just talk of the �Bling-bling� � the rings and the riches it can bring them. How good and great do they want their VOICES to sound and be perceived down the line and for the ages? They aren�t yet known for having beautiful and soul stirring voices.

And if you read the Otis Williams� article � he sort of sums it up for me, as it pertains to Respect. I didn�t mean that these hip-hop and rap artist have to respect or love the ones that came before them. I am saying that they need to respect themselves and the opposite sex. Some can�t see how they degrade themselves w/all the cussing and the over the top, half and almost entire nakedness, and the explicit sexual simulations and what not they flaunt on stage and in videos. It really is sickening, and IMO � there is nothing classy about them and what they portray at all. And God is watching � don�t you know.

I, for one, don�t think this particular genre will last long. I just can�t see it happening � for there is no depth and sincerity being put forth from the masses that are involved in it. Some of it is good � and this is true � but the majority of it � just can�t last forever, IMO.

From the Otis Williams article:
Williams says he comes from an era when music was created to uplift and heal, not to denigrate. And he believes that still should be music's objective.

He doesn't buy the rationale that many of today's singers offer: that their lyrics are crude because they are reflecting their reality.

"Look," he says, "I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I come from Detroit's Black Bottom neighborhood. I know the truth.

"But music is supposed to be an ointment, soothing at times when people and the world are in upheaval. Today's music has stooped down so low with obscenities that the radio stations have to bleep out the lyrics."

I only got into this mix upon reading where some have taken on the nerve to tell the older singers and groups that they might need to get on out of the way. When - I first posted to this board � I quickly said that this is my daughter�s day, as it pertains to what music genre is hot on the airwaves and TV. And I said it to mainly point out, that what I loved and grew up on was no longer the rave, nor was it being played on the radio, and I conceded just that point.

Again - take what Otis spoke on above. The Tempts can no longer get any radio play � and that it a nutshell spells blatant disrespect in his and some folks� mind. I don�t think it is fair to say that the older entertainers/artists should grab a rocking chair somewhere � for to say that is like saying that they should just disappear from the face of the earth.

This world is big enough for all of the entertainers that make all types of music. Now if one wanted to say that they didn�t like or appreciate the music that I do � then that would be another story � for not everyone has the same tastes, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

In some folks� minds � the music being done up today is just not appealing, and this opinion is not just attributed the ones my age and older, but many of the younger set are gravitating toward the classic music of old, and they don�t buy in to what is out there today. How much would anyone like to bet that one day soon, there might be a bigger demand for the oldies but goodies? Something needs to be done and in a hurry.

I have tried to talk to my fourteen-year-old daughter about the visuals that she sees and the wordings that she hears - but I can't stop her from seeing and hearing it all. I used to forbid her to watch & listen to it on TV when she was younger - but I had to just let it go - because it is just too out there. I tell her to take it all w/a grain of salt, and garner no aspirations to dress like some of the females she sees on the tube - for I will not buy those types of clothes for her.

Class will always = classics. And there is nothing classy about what is being brought forth for our youth today. They spend too much time talking about champagne - sex - the cronic - cars - houses - and many more things that are nothing but materialistic things and stimulants. They offer up little or no substance.

What our classic artists of the past brought to the table - gave and talked about had meaning and was spiritual in nature. There is a big difference, and IMO - it is nothing if not sad but true.

By steve w (212.159.40.120) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:18 pm:

SB- bought "sombodys gotta win" on release on Juana records would you believe, be sure to thank your cousin, controllers are a great band, "For the Love of my woman" being another fave of mine and trying to keep on thread I bet they played a great live gig - no problem

By Des (217.42.15.147) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

1Wicked & SB - I apologise for any offence I may have caused.
I have tried to draft a response "point by point".
I honestly think I'm in a no-win position here and I feel frustrated about that.
I'm not in USA,I don't have a teenage daughter,I'm not from the music-biz and I haven't devoured music-writing(other than Mojo Mag) for 20 Years.....some or all of these factors may preclude me from passing a credible opinion for you.
I have,however,bought music since I was 12 (in 1970).
I will try and make bullet statements to focus-in on my own opinions and also where I feel what is sometimes expressed here seems insular and unbalanced:
1/ I think Sampling is increasingly being highlighted and generates respect for its' original source. Encouraging discovery of what is lauded on this Site.
I agree that this hasn't been the case since the get-go of Sampling,but it's getting better and people like u and me bolster whatever does get made public....
2/I regret the choice of Chi-Lites as an example of my opinion on Vocal Groups.
Anything I wrote earlier on this matter would be inflammatory.....I acknowledge that E.Record was involved in song-writing....how widely appreciated or successful is dependent on whether you read/seek out this kind of Site....
3/Rap's offensive? - (mostly)yes it is.
So was Little Richard/Elvis/Chuck Berry/JB.....tame by todays' standards,but controversial just the same....and the same old same old that happens with each and every generation.It's just more extreme cos there are so many more modern factors to take account of -- Internet/pornography/mainstream cinema pushing boundaries/more money in most everybody's hands/more and more freely available recreational drugs/increasing breakdown in trust of Govt,President(s) and Church/MTV.....
4/ "Flavour of the Month...etc" - I tackled that on a number of posts ("sorry I have 2 say it" among others...).There are good producers of music out there and it's not discussed here.It's rarely acknowledged at all and that is unbalanced.
5/Most young people do,indeed,resent their parents music - even if their parents music may be "classic soul" etc.....they just have to,it's the law.....I sure didn't and clearly,SB, you didn't but we're exceptions,not the norm.
If you don't accept that,you'll just have a potentially naive take on young people and their mindsets,IMO.
Other less musically serious parents will not encourage understanding - they'll just entrench themselves in the generational "gap" that sadly,again,is the norm.
6/ Rap and HipHop aren't "new" and the lack of original musical frameworks will,indeed,spell the decline of these genres...cos music will overcome,it always has and always will....
7/ Music doesn't have to "uplift and heal" and to say that's all it should do is too narrow and alienating to a younger mindset(and my own for that matter).
8/ SB's other items on morals etc,seem answerable by "parenting is very difficult in these modern times"....

I STILL think there's some good,young musicians of a different type and circumstance than those narrowly lauded here......I LOVE THESE ARTISTS,TOO.I JUST OBSERVE THAT ONE CAN GET TRAPPED IN THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" AND SEE NOTHING GOOD ABOUT TODAY.....THAT WOULD BE UNFORTUNATE,IMO.
I'm gonna stay quiet now....I'm feeling I'm about to be vilified pretty soon....sorry if I rambled...
Des

By SB (205.187.255.166) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:01 pm:

Hey Des. �Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Elvis may have been a little risqué� � but even back then - it was to a certain extent, and never ova the top.

And just because there is the raunchy, porno and common factors out here today � doesn�t mean that our young people should have to gravitate to it, love it or accept it. You have not answered the fundamental question as to why some of these artists think they have to get into the commonness of all things.

Why do they feel they NEED to go that a way? Why � oh why? What does it do for them? Where are the percentages in it for them?

And what is up w/the porno (Snoop Dog) types? Would he like his daughter to be compromised the way he compromises some of the girls in the �Girls Gone Wild�, videos? I am not saying he put a gun to their heads to get them to do what they do � but why is he into such a thing. It stinks to high heaven, and he appears to be a modern day pimp of sorts. I worked w/a man that swore that he would shoot Snoop if it were one of his daughters. Say what? Will Smith & jazzy Jeff would have no part of the raunchiness. That was their choice.

I love this quote by Otis Williams:

"We are losing our soul for the want of the almighty dollar. There should be some redeeming qualities in this business."

And yes � I will bring morality into this. Why would I, and why do I teach my daughter about morality, respect, decency and HONOR? Because I want her to know that there is still such a thing as right and wrong. You act like � just because your generation is doing these kinds of things � then that makes it all ok. Naught!

I suppose one may also need to look at the geographical locations � education levels and some more stuff as it pertains to some of these people that you and I don�t see eye to eye on, as it pertains to whom out of the younger crowd likes or dislikes what you are advocating and what I am treasuring. And yes � I have heard that most of the folks that buy the hip-hop and the rap music are middle class white youngsters and young adults, so I am not talking about classes here. And yes I know that there are plenty of folks from all races that buy that type of music also � but what really are we talking about here?

For instance � one artist sells 2M copies of a record. And the next artist sells 2M copies. Now don�t you think some of those same people are buying both artist's records? Not every young person or young adult in America is buying up all that type of music � �cause if they were � these artists would be selling 10/20M copies of one CD. Eminem � is the only artist out there that has about 5M in record sells - here lately, off of the 8 Mile CD right? There are what about 150M young people and young adults in America.

Ralph mentioned this bit to start this thread:

�They interviewed some editor from Billboard and he said that these groups were capable of delivering a great concert as opposed to some of the new groups that could only go out and do a concert of their " hit ".

Now � I think I�ve also read posts here by others that have stated that some of these older artist/groups are packing the houses, and that many in these audiences are younger folks. This tells me that many � many of these young folks do like the music of our not too distant yesterdays. I have seen several websites dedicated to the older artists that were developed by folks in their late twenties and early thirties.

You tell me that most of the younger generation resent their parents� music. I still don�t agree with you on that. Des � let�s agree on this. Some of the folks you are speaking about may resent their parents� music. And I say � that some of the ones I�m speaking about don�t. All right? Neither of us can speak for everyone.

If some of these folks in the hip-hop and rap industry don�t get real w/the quickness and try to find God or some kind of higher power in their lives � then they have nowhere to go but down. The way you make it sound - these same folks you speak on � should not have care about having any spirituality in their lives � and/or go to church, because that is just the way it is � and/or � the Internet has taken ova � the porn shops � the porn videos are all around them � and they are just �Too Weak To Fight�, it all. Scandalous.

Do you think that they shouldn�t be taught about good vs. bad � right vs. wrong � and so on? I am not saying that folks need go to church in order to believe in God/Higher Power � but if they don�t already believe in something spiritual � then they do need to do something in order to gain some type of guidance, in that area and in my book. They appear to be trying to live out the �Babylonia Dream� that they are mistaking for the �American Dream.� People still have choices? In other words - would they kill a person just because someone they hang with did it?

You wrote this:

�I JUST OBSERVE THAT ONE CAN GET TRAPPED IN THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" AND SEE NOTHING GOOD ABOUT TODAY.....THAT WOULD BE UNFORTUNATE,IMO.�

I am not trapped anywhere. Just like you choose to enjoy what you do � I do the same. I covet the music from generations ago. I even love the singers that sung the standards � like Sammy � Bing � Dean � Nat � and Frank. I love those guys. When hearing the music that I love to hear � at times - it takes me back to a time or place, and that is not to say, it is like that all the time. For the most part � I just know it and enjoy it. It will never get old to me � and it definitely does not entrap me � for if anything � it frees my mind, and gives me a feeling of freedom � well being � love and peace. Now what possibly could be wrong w/that?

I feel for you and the ones that don�t care for music that uplifts, heals and frees. This must really be the crux of this entire separation between the ages. Pray tell � what do you want music to do for you? I am not being smart � for I am truly curious now. And if you answer � will you be answering for just yourself and/or yourself and others?

I do understand what you are saying. You are saying that I, and others just need to look for something good about today�s music. I do see things good about today�s music. I am just not into the rap and the hip-hop. I also believe that evidently it is not meant for me to appreciate and admire the rap and the hip-hop or else I would. You see I believe that all things are meant to be or meant not to be. And in the case of whether I want to spend my money and my time on the hip-hop and the rap music � I don�t.

This one life we live here on earth is all we got � so we might as well live it the way that brings up the most joy and the most peace. I find a lot of my joy and peace from listening to music � and the oldies but goodies are in my blood and are a part of me. I couldn�t cut them out of my life if I tried � and especially in order to pick up some of the stuff being sung and made today. Thanks but no thanks � and thank God I have a CHOICE, and especially as it pertains to my morality.

Finally Des � I am not here to continually knock what you are saying or the music that we speak on as it relates to hip-hop and rap. I�ve had my say � and I�m done w/it. Plus - I've practically written a chapter here. LOL! May peace be upon you bro, and continue to �Live The Life You Love & Love The Life You Live.� I hope to do the same myself.

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:31 pm:

SB,
Good points.

As for being stuck in the "good old days," what you have to consider, Des, is that much of the music many of us relish isn't from OUR good old days, but from those of someone much older.

I speak of '50s jazz, and '40s big band, which my mother and father listened to, and also '50s pop and R&B music, which I learned to love when I was a kid in the '60s, when I heard it on the oldies station, or played as oldies on WKNR and WXYZ.

When I hear "I Only Have Eyes For You" by the Flamingos -- that song isn't reminding me of a great old memory because I didn't hear it the first time around, or if I did, it was in my crib and I was otherwise occupied.
That song created such a mood, it became a whole world in my mind as I first listened to it. Nothing to do with my generation -- it wasn't MY generation that bebopped to that song.

I liked my parents' music, and I find more in the younger generation appreciate music of the '50s, '60s and '70s. Whole bands are formed on the basis of it. I know a 22-year-old who's in two bands, a garage one, and another that's totally a '60s cover band. Where does she get that? The garage band sounds like a cross between the Shangri-Las and the Ramones.

She listens to oldies stations. And she's heard some of it from her parents' collection, although even her parents are too young to have experienced '60s music first-hand.

Today's oldies stations really are crap, which has given the whole genre a bad name ...I hope I live to see the day when there are good stations that play older music, that they aren't called "oldies" stations, that there's no pejorative term applied to its age (or lack thereof). For me, "I Only Have Eyes For You" is eternally young, those singers are always ardent young men singing of the most incredible love, even if in reality they're grandfathers or older.

To say that pop culture is going to get progressively rawer and more overtly sexual with every generation is sort of curious; I think pop culture runs more in cycles, or where would it end? With Jason and Christina having sex onstage? Nah, the pendulum will swing back to melody AND rhythm, not just rhythm, because I really believe hearing both is a human need.

Otis Williams had a great point about how there's always been a seamy side of life, and he saw a lot of it growing up, but you didn't see it reflected in the music necessarily. To say that young performers are only reflecting an increasingly violent, sexual world is to forget history.

Life was much rawer and scarier on the back streets of Detroit, New York, and I daresay London in the '30s and '40s than it is today. Some of the danger and social issues might have been reflected in the music in a subtle way, but it was grown-up and sensual, it wasn't gratuitous kiddie sex like it is today.

By Greg C. (207.103.134.185) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:43 pm:

Call them "fast food" and "throwaway" artists.

I'm at awe by all the anger and frustration that comes out of the "music" today. Hateful and hurtful lyrics that encourage one to destroy and berate. Nothing to truly inspire, put a smile on your face, and just make you happy.

You even have to look at the covers of the latest CD's that come out now. All of those scowls and angry looks hide the innermost souls of scared, insecure young people afraid of life and the future. All of that frontin' and posturing and for what? For whom? And the bottom line is it turns so many off that nobody cares! All of these young folks with these tremendous chips on their shoulders who don't have the life skills to cope with setbacks and adversity.

Makes you very concerned...

By SB (205.187.255.166) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:44 pm:

Sue - you pinned the tail on the donkey. I loved what you had to say, and especially this:

"For me, "I Only Have Eyes For You" is eternally young, those singers are always ardent young men singing of the most incredible love, even if in reality they're grandfathers or older."

"To say that pop culture is going to get progressively rawer and more overtly sexual with every generation is sort of curious; I think pop culture runs more in cycles, or where would it end? With Jason and Christina having sex onstage? Nah, the pendulum will swing back to melody AND rhythm, not just rhythm, because I really believe hearing both is a human need."

Priceless stuff indeed. Thanks.

By SB (205.187.255.166) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:09 pm:

Greg C. - you are right on also. You made some interesting points as it pertains to anger and frustration. Heck - all of what you wrote was right on time. You captured it by commenting on the Covers also.

What you spoke on kind of puts one one mind of that song that came out several years ago: "It's Like A Jungle Out Here - And I Think I'm Going Under", or something to that affect. I think that song truly messed w/some of these folks' minds - for some have not been the same since - and may haps they took the words to heart and quite literally.

Some must feel like the world is going to hell anyway - so they might as well get theirs - by enjoying the high life, sex and drugs and then they'll be ready to meet their Maker - but only after living on their terms, and in the way that means and proves to them that they know what so-called good living is. Besides - heaven is (should be - or I'll make my own) right here on earth after all.

Sorry - but I thought I was thru. It is just that this subject poses such a heartfelt and wrenching dilemma that we're all facing here. And We is the operative word. We have to care about the youth. Just like some of the singers we praise today did. The James Brown's and Curtis Mayfield's of the world - and so many more. They cared about the young people, and just like we do. That's why it hurts to think that the young people don't care about us.

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:38 pm:

Thanks Sue and SB for bringing to the discussion the fact that musicians and listeners of quote "our era" respected the musics of previous generations. I think this is hugely significant , not only from a sociological standpoint , but also because elements of older musics were incorporated into much of the music we discuss here. H-D-H or Lennon-McCartney , for example, wouldn't have created the music that they did without the influence of pop songwriters and composers of the 30's & 40's.

I also want to expound on the "stuck in the 'good old days'" nostalgia accusation we fossils are often on the receiving end of.

Are we just dinosaurs longing for days gone by ? Though some may be mired in that mindset, I've finally come to the conclusion that despite my resemblance to the pterodactyl, I am NOT a dinosaur. Here's how I figured that out:

My favorite era in music is approximately 1957 to maybe 1974/5 , with a special affection for stuff produced between 1964 and '70. This doesn't mean that I don't have many favorites from outside of that time frame -I do, but as a generality , that's my musical era. Now, do I feel that way about all aspects of life, or even pop culture ? No , I don't.

For example , my favorite novels ( Call It Sleep, New Grubb Street , Invisible Man , Catcher in the Rye ) are from the 1930's , 1890's , late 1940's. Though there are movies from many eras that I enjoy, if I had to break it down , I think the 1980's , surprisingly for some reason to me, may be my favorite ( Spinal Tap, Early Coen Bros., especially Woody Allen's 1983-89 output - he wrote and directed Zelig, Broadway Danny Rose, Purple Rose of Cairo, Hannah and her Sisters, Radio Days, September and Crimes & Misdemeanors in that time span; amazing. Even some 80 's blockbusters (Rainman ; Coming to America) are worthwhile.

As far as Television, despite the glut of crap today, I'd have to say that though there were always gems-amidst-the-dreck, (Twilight Zone, Playhouse 90 etc.), TV has never been better than it has the past few years (Law and Order, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Six Feet Under, Seinfeld, and quite a few others). Of course , percentage-wise, TV could be as bad as always, but the highs are certainly higher.

And I'm sure nobody reading this longs for the days of segregation, or the days when everybody's dad chucked their oil on the ground behind the garage when doing an oil change.

Anyway, if someone believes that EVERYTHING from one specific era is superior to EVERYTHING from another, the "Fogey pining for their lost yout' " charge may be true; however , if you see where I'm coming from with this lengthy rant, the next time someone tries to blame your arguments on nostalgia, tell 'em to stick to the facts.


SteveK

By SB (205.186.130.150) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:45 pm:

Well said SteveK. Now I am going to take these old and creaking bones upstairs partner.

So long. Now what in the world did Beav (Leave it to Beaver) and others mean by "So Long?" LOL! What kind of Adios was that? What was up w/that? How does the two words "So Long" = goodbye. LOL!

By Des (217.42.15.147) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

Dear SB/Sue et al....
I know you all probably don't mean it,but your selective point-making and diversion into the moral aspect is just too much - don't be angered by this statement,pls read on carefully.
I'm not the type to abandon a conversation in person,but my typing skills are slow and no matter what I say,I'm going to fail to persuade you that you can still love music from any bygone era and also enjoy and appreciate (and maybe sometime love) music from today.
I honestly believe there's music to enjoy out there.....but to dwell on whether "old skool" can sell big again is a waste of energy....it actually does sell when re-jigged by R Kelly/Musiq/R.Saadiq/R.Paterson.....
To then go on and get agitated about your mis-interpretation of what I wrote is,as I say,too much. I'm by no means advocating or justifying the moral decline in our Western societies - I observed this as a factor in influencing todays Rappers (alongside others).
To then choose to quote my UPPER CASE statement without the first part that says "I LOVE THESE (OLD SKOOL) ARTISTS,TOO...." is unfair.
I appreciate the tone of these messages is not aggressive or too confrontational.
Let me close this post by telling you I have as catholic a collection of recorded music as you're ever likely to find. I live my life with as much music in my day as I can manufacture.
I started a family late in life and have a boy who'll be 2 next month - he's going to enjoy music ----- but I won't guess whether it'll include everything his Dad likes (but I'm hoping so,of course,and will expose him to as wide a variety of music as I can manage).
This and other Old Skool Sites are fun for me,cos I find people whose taste crosses over with my own -- in this section of my music appreciation -- but I've learned my lesson now on other issues that I felt were reasonable to discuss and debate.
I'm outta here.....
Des

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

Des,
No reason to bow out because you're -- at the moment -- in the minority. There are a few hip hop fans around here who would pipe in eventually -- and as you say, we've been discussing in a friendly way.

You don't "know" us well yet so it isn't apparent but many of us do like new music. It's just that we pick and choose, and to say a lot of it holds up against music of the '60s just isn't something I could say and keep a straight face. Wishing it were true won't do it for me, either.

I think in music you CAN make an objective critique across generational lines; some music will last, and some won't, despite what era it's from.

No offense, but to compare Beyonce and the Chi-Lites -- well, I was going to jump in at that point but I'm glad I let others argue against that comparison. Much as I'd like Beyonce to do well, when I listen to her duet on "The Closer I Get To You" with Luther, I'm just marking time during her part until Luther pipes in again.

I talked to a young jazz singer a few weeks ago, Peter Cincotti (age 20) and he had a good point -- he said it baffles him why singers today are all good-looking. He pointed out that the great jazz singers of the past were of varying looks; the important thing was that they sang well. It's true, and when singers are chosen for their looks, why would we want to listen to their music when we can't see them?

By LTLFTC (12.210.76.205) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:35 pm:

I'd also like to state that my rant is in no way aligned with those that would dismiss hip-hop stuff out of hand. (I LOVE the 1st De La Soul album for example , but what was that - 1989?)

But year after year, in a quest to find something worthwhile to listen to, I would be sucked in to picking up some cd that was reciving RAVES. Arrested Developent comes to mind ; or Outkast a couple years back. Geez, I picked up a Village Voice and read about that cd - I was expecting the greatest thing I ever heard or something and what did I get? A pretty cool single , a less cool single and 50 minutes of same-old-shit. At inflated prices, at that. And all these crooners and rock bands that are all worked up about SOMETHING ( I wonder what, exactly)- it's like the agony derby or something.

Sue, thats a pretty profound point the young jazz singer had. Can you imagine Howlin' Wolf trying to get a deal with Sony or something ("Wolf, baby , we love ya, but ya gotta get those TEETH fixed"). Or Ella Fitzgerald - they'd make her LIVE on a Stairmaster before she'd be signed. Or Billie Holiday - they'd probably shoot her videos in a way that made her track marks STAND OUT. Her junkiness would be her SHTICK !! Or my boys, the Fugs - sheeeit, if they tried to GET IN the WEA building today , security would be called.....

SteveK

By SB (206.214.1.202) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:29 am:

Morning All,

Des - please don't leave on my account either. This board is big enough for the ones that appreciate all kinds of music. I apologize to you if you think I was questioning your morality or your defense of rap and hip-hop music.

I was just trying to reach you so that you understood why some folks don't appreciate that kind of music. I brought morality up because IMO - one can't separate it out from what some of these artists are saying in these songs - or the way they dress and act. It is almost like some of them flaunt their lack of morality and/or values.

What is that lady's name that started that campaign against some of these groups - because of the way the females are being portrayed in song and in visuals? And then you have the Russell Simmons types trying to defend and save this genre of music.

I see you as a Russell Simmons type. And IMO - you seem to have a tender heart. And you are doing nothing wrong in your defense - and in trying to get some of us to give this type of music a chance. So - don't fret about it. You are still loved and appreciated. It is just that some of us don't love and appreciate all of the rap and the hip-hop.

Ok my friend? "Stay", and have a great day.

By Des (81.152.238.42) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:00 am:

Hey everybody/ It's 3pm UK time and the day's been good business-wise for me.....
I've read the posts above and I'm more than happy to stay with SoulfulDetroit.com
Of course I felt differently in the wee small hours of last night/this morning BUT I'm not naturally negative......so here I am.
Thanks for the nice words.
Pls look out for my other posts on nostalgic topics now and in the future - then you'll see I'm a fan as well as someone who likes current artists who fondly use Old Skool stuff and make it contemporary and exciting to my ears....whilst I still enjoy the originals,of course !!!!
I just got a friend to bring me back from a biz trip to Tokyo,the first Syreeta solo album from 1972....it's great to hear as my Vinyl's been locked away for a coupla years now.It doesn't have the lovely "sunset-style" Mowest label -- they packaged it on Motown for the Japanese release I've now got......Stevie-W was hitting a run from Music of my Mind to Hotter Than July that'll probably never be equalled creatively....and this album with/for his then wife is just awesome......music can getcha where you need to be....
Thankyou - falettinme be mice elf agin
Des....slyly

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:53 am:

Des:
As the great Sly Stone once said, "different strokes for different folks."

BTW - I hate to beat a dead horse but in regards to the Chi-lites, here's how their songs developed (I know because Carl Davis & Tom Washington are my mentors):

1) Eugene Record would write the tune and record a demo consisting of his vocal, plus guitar & bass - which he would play on the demo. If drums were added, that was thanks to Quinton Joseph.

2) Once the demo was approved for release by Carl Davis (BRC's VP of A&R), the demo would be forwarded to an arranger. In the case of "Are You My Woman" Tom Washington (a/k/a Tom Tom 84) had the honors.

3) The band would cut the song - rhythm and horns. Then the Chi-lites added their vocals (the song was recorded on 16-track Ampex tape).

In time, Eugene would write his own arrangements - rhythm & horns - for the group's songs (i.e. - 1973's "Stoned Out Of My Mind"). He also played guitar & bass on the Chi-lites' #1 hit "Oh Girl" & their 1973 album "A Letter To Myself"
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:55 am:

Ralph & Company:
What you folks have said on this thread is what I've been championing on another. Therefore, there is no need for me to make any further comments here.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SB (205.186.130.219) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:12 pm:

steve w - thank you for mentioning that you like "The Controllers." My cousin didn't record the song w/them - but he perfomed locally and traveled with them once that particular album came out in 1977.

My mother went to Columbus, GA - last Thursday to stay w/her cousin. Her mother's side was having a good old family reunion in Eufala (sp?), AL. It is only about an hour and ten minutes from Columbus. Eufala is also right down the street from where Eddie Kendrick was born (In Union Springs) - and Eufala is where Martha Reeves & Katie Coric (The Today Show) are from. Anyway - this particular cousin also attended the reunion. He drove his mother down from Fairfield, AL.

My brother just told me on the phone that Mike (This cousin) and he, both showed their rears yesterday at cousin Ollie Ruth's house after attending a long day at church. The church mind you - is the one my great grandmother (and her offspring) used to attend. Big Ma Hattie was her name. She had a farm - the animals - the outhouse - and so on. (And red clay roads were the norm) We used to hate going to visit her when I was a young girl. LOL! She put you to work - and neva remembered anyone's name. She died at 88 or something like that - and was never sick a day in her life. (Or at least that is how the story goes)

Anyway - my brother and Mike ate like there was no tomorrow. He said, they threw down, and that Mike took about ten containers of food w/him last night - as he and my aunt traveled on to Dothan, AL to visit some of my mother and aunt's father's side of the family. LOL! I said - how scandalous. And that I wish I had been there for some of those peas and what not.

Des - I was glad to see your face all up in the place. Hang tough partner.

By stephanie (64.63.221.190) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:09 pm:

Des
Welcome Aboard to the Forum I enjoyed your comments and we love you baby,,
Stephanie

By FrankM (81.152.61.86) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 04:19 am:

Hey Des. �Little Richard, Chuck Berry and Elvis may have been a little risqué� � but even back then - it was to a certain extent, and never ova the top.

If one looks at contemporary media coverage the above artists caused great outrage, remember Elvis filmed from the waist up, Chuck Berry was jailed in soemwhat dubious circumstances, The FBI were investigating Rock'N'roll as being Unamerican and a communist front. There was a good deal of racism invested in some of teh criticism too. ASCAP were running a campaign that RoCk'n@roll was rubbish music only played on radio because the record companies paid for plays and it was keeping good songwriters in penury.

I have great fun watching musical shows with my sons sharing some of what they like and reserving the right of Dads everywhere to don rose tinted glasses and say we had it better. I also have taken on the mantle of my late dad and have a go at artists posturing, laughing at their clothes and wondering at inclusion of a DJ scratching records on the same stage as real musicians.

Small point in response to why artists are so good looking. well possibly the ratio of good lookers to less than avrage lookers with good voices has to do with the media. I heard songs from records, live cove bands, occasionally from Radio and rarely from TV. The visual media with non stop pop TV is where a lot of young people hear music today. The emphasis on good looks has always been there but one wonders who's the equivalent of say Bill Haley these days. Then again Frank Farian (was it?) who recorded the sound of Milli Vanilli and then hired some good lookers to tour the records.

The music business goes round and round as it always has.

By Common (209.2.55.171) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 11:39 am:

Hello everyone,

Speaking of older acts that keep it coming, The Queen is back!

http://www.eurweb.com/articles/headlines/07222003/headlines1065507222003.cfm

Peace!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 11:48 am:

Well....score one for the good guys. Thanks for posting Common.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 12:05 pm:

First, Earth Wind & Fire score a radio hit from their latest album.

Now, the Queen of Soul scores a Top Tenner on the Urban A/C chart....

Wow, what a summer it has been for the veterans!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SB (204.30.139.115) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:17 pm:

I found the below link interesting. I noticed on my MSN home page just now - that Oprah had been voted VH1's "Pop ICON" of the year or whatever - and then I clicked on Music. Check out the 50 Cent's "Pimp", video. Sad.

Now, I know that TPsTB (The Powers That Be) that are in the position to bring it to the people are the ones that provide a gateway for artists' and their wares - but.......

My brother cautioned me yesterday, as it pertains to keeping up with my daughter. He told me to never forget to show her how much I cared about and loved her. I told him - "I got this." She is the main reason I get up each day and carry on. She comes before anyone and anything for me.


http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=108293