By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:29 am:

We are both from Kansas City, He dated my oldest sister (in the fifties), was a lead singer in a doo wop group, but left there a few years before I did. I came out here in 1962 and found that he was the most sought after drummer on Black sessions. As I will also do a website on him when the time is right I would like to hear about some of your experiences with him. Here's something I bet only a few of you know. He only released one song as a single (45)that he thought would be a big hit and he only did it to dare someone to sue him. The song had the exact melody as a song he had written (had to be close to a million seller) but got no credit for. The company the second one was on was from Memphis(I think). I know the label but do not remember the name of the song. I do know the song that the melody came from. He actually sang lead on the original but got no credit for that either. When they play the record nowadays they say another person sang it. Ain't the music business a mess? Do not think he has ever gotten over that. Any pictures and stories on James Gadson. Great Drummer. Hal Davis used him a lot.

By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:35 am:

Few people actually realize that Gadson was the vocalist on the Charles Wright & The Watts 103rd St.Rhythm Band's "Love Land". Since Charles Wright's name was featured and he sang lead on "Express Yourself"...people thought *he* sang "Love Land" too...unless you saw them perform the dong.
And BTW...Paul Humphrey was probably in demand as a session drummer almost to the same extent at that time !

By WaltB (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 06:50 am:

I loved his production of "Love Seasons" for the group Zoom

By RD (65.150.228.127) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:05 am:

"Love Seasons" is a great record. That it didn't hit bigger must have really discouraged Gadson and Zoom. Zoom made an album but I never ran across it. One of Zoom is from Cleveland and recently returned home after years of trying to make it in Los Angeles.

By PhillyGroove (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:21 am:

1Wicked,

Thanks for the info on Gadson's lead on "Love Land." Has to be one of my favorites. Was he the session and live drummer for Chas. Wright and the 103rd Street band?

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:25 am:

Actually Zoom recorded two LP's the second was on MCA and had a picture on the cover that appeared to be a shuttle being launched. One thing unique about the lead on "Love Seasons" is that the high lead part and the low part (in natural voice) is the same person. Nolan Semien (Dr. Simco) does all the lead. James put a high pitched note that picked up where the high tenor left off and it sounds like the lead carried that note longer than he actually did. Nolan has refused to sign with anyone since because nothing within their music industry experience went right. I talked to him until I was blue in the face trying to convinve him that he is wasting a great talent. He has spent the better part of his life gigging at bars and clubs, here in L.A., for little of nothing. Truly talented, though.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:29 am:

James was a member of the group
Watts 103rd St. Band (Yes , the drummer) He is in all their photo shots.

By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:34 am:

1Wicked
You were dead on "Loveland" was the song I talked about. He went on to record the other on the Cream label , ever hear it. I do not recall the title. I will try to call him later today and find out what it was.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:16 am:

I have the 45 of "Love Land" on the Warner Brothers label ("Sorry Charlie" was the b-side) - I had no idea James Gadson was the singer on the record.
The song was a smoker! Then again, I'm preaching to the choir on this one!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:24 am:

I had the pleasure of working with James Gadson in 1978 on some sessions that Bobby Martin was producing in L.A. I believe one of them was with John Handy.

By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:26 am:

BTW...The sessions were at Total Experience Studios.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:59 am:

Eli,
Did you know that James Gadson also coproduced both Poet lp's with Bobby Womack. James was the one that talked Patti LaBelle into doing the duet.

Here's another case where folks could have quit the business because of the label treatment. Since neither one of them (Bobby or James)got paid Bobby refused to finish the second lp. It was three or four years before they resolved the problem in court. In the meantime Beverly Glen owner Otis Smith erased whatever vocals Bobby had recorded and put Johnny Taylor's voice on the tracks and that is why the poet #2 became Johnny Taylor's one and only BG lp. After the resolution Bobby recorded the second Poet #2.
Don't you just love the music biz?

By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

Unbelievable Lonnie!!

Whatever happened to Otis Smith??
I wonder if Anita Baker has stuff in the can??

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 01:04 pm:

Eli:
Elektra bought the rights to Anita's Beverly Glen album "The Songstress" in the early 1990s. They reissued the album on CD around 1992 or 1993.

I remember selling quite a few copies of "The Songstress" on CD during my record store manager years.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (172.133.42.47) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

I just wondered if there were any "lost sessions" kind of things floating around.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:40 pm:

obby,
If Otis Smith were not deceased I would not mention his name. His record deals were so onesided that noone recorded with him twice in succession. He ran all of his great acts away.And ironically he is the guy that engineered the deal that the Natural Four had with ABC, another one album fiasco. They (ABC & MCA) haven't paid me in 33 years.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:43 pm:

Right today my song is on 14 cd's that I know of.

By bassland (64.169.107.154) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:23 pm:

HERE is a picture I took of James Gadson at a recent gig we were both on in Leimert Park in L.A.

By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:24 pm:

I never saw a Natural Four album on ABC !! I thought they were Curtom...and OUT !

By BassLand (64.169.107.154) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:30 pm:

By RD (65.150.229.252) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:32 pm:

The Natural Four recorded for Boola Boola, ABC and Chess Records prior to Curtom.

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:59 pm:

Hi everyone. I did a lot of sessions with James Gadson when I lived in LA. He is a good drummer. I used him on my Instant Coffey Album. We also did a lot of sessions together at Mowest. I think he also worked with Bill Withers back then.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 05:41 pm:

I do not see a picture, but I would like to. Did Was James aware of the fact that it was being taken?

You can see the ABC lp cover on my music page at www,soulwalking.co.uk/Lonnie%20Cook.html the name was "Good Vibes". The Curtom Group was the original lead (Chris James) and three new guys. The original other three were Al Bowden, Allen Richardson, and John January. The song that I wrote for them "I Thought you were mine" was their very first recording.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 05:48 pm:

I see it now, that is James.

Do you know if he still has the studio behind his house? We were supposed to coproduce Bobby McClure there. That is where the Zoom album was recorded.

By RD (65.150.229.252) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

The Natural Four on Curtom were Chris James, Steve Striplin, Daryl Cannady and Delmos Whitely.

"I Thought You Were Mine" is a nice song. Did they re-record the song for ABC or use the same track that originally came out on Boola Boola? I heard the song for the first time years after it came out cause we knew nothing about TNF in Cleveland until their Curtom recordings.

Lonnie, is there some reason why your songs, except three, are not logged on either B.M.I. or ASCAP? On the B.M.I. site it indicates you're not a member. Or the bulk on them on ASCAP and I just couldn't find them? What's the story behind this?

Believe me I understand and sympathize with your plight of not getting paid any mechanicals for your song for 33 years. Some people are under the impression that songwriters are paid mechanicals almost automatically. I know for a fact, however, that this is not true in many cases. Often the publishing concern never pays the writer. Usually, all the writer has to look forward to is some performance income provided their tune is played a lot on radio or television.

Nolan Semien was one of the singers a Cleveland group called Puzzle People referenced after returning from Los Angeles after an unsuccessful bid to get a recording deal in the '70s. All they managed was some studio background work. One member of PP said the competition was more than they expected and that some guys out there (talking about Nolan) sang like birds.

By WaltB (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:28 pm:

RD: Was Nolan Semien the one from Cleveland? I promoted Zoom, and had regular rotation everywhere in my region except in Cleveland, where I could only get dayparted airplay. I'll check to see if I have a second copy of Zoom if you're still interested in acquiring a copy.

By WaltB (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:31 pm:

RD: Better yet. Which one was from Cleveland?

By RD (65.150.229.252) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 07:46 pm:

CORRECTION: Tease ("Firestarter") is the group that had a member from Cleveland that has returned home not Zoom. However, the Puzzle People guys were referring to Nolan of Zoom who I knew nothing about at the time.

And you're right about it not being played much in Cleveland. I never heard it here. I heard it at night on CKLW in Windsor; I use to tune in to listen to that song.

I have "Love Seasons" on a various artist compilation CD. I knew of the album with the song on it but never saw it. I only heard that one song by them.

By WaltB (152.163.252.68) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:23 pm:

RD: Perhaps your speaking of one of the Organ brothers?

By RD (65.150.228.197) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 09:36 pm:

Don't think so Walt, but I can't remember his name. I didn't know him. I heard him on WERE on somebody's show talking about his being in Tease and living in L.A. for awhile. I don't even know if he's an original member.

By JSmith (195.93.50.10) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:17 am:

I was in touch with James G about 10 years back and wrote an article on his career that was published in a UK fanzine.
The number of seesions he played on in the 70's (Motown & others) was unbelievable.
He was (is) a really nice guy and helped me a lot with my research into his work.
He (with a few others) quit the Watts 103rd after disputes with Charles Wright over composers credit, etc. He and the other 'rebels' went off to back Bill Withers I seem to remember. They toured with Bill (including UK gigs) and were on his live album released at that time.
He had his own back yard studio during / after the time he worked with Bobby Womack and produced the last recordings by the likes of Bobby McClure.

By Lonnie Cook (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 01:58 am:

I think maybe Kipper was the guy from Tease.

Cannot talk to much about it but I caught BMI in their collusion with the companies that have been ripping me off and they immediately terminated my affiliation. They still have me listed as an affiliate publisher, though. Bunch of smooth criminals in the music biz.

By Lonnie Cook (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 02:07 am:

When I originally wrote "I thought you were mine" it was a song the pace of "Choosey Beggar" . The Producer went in the studio without me and doubled the speed. I did not recognize my own song, that was Boola Boola. When it was rerecorded at ABC the same producer (prompted by Otis Smith) doubled the speed again. I really hated that move but that was the Northern Soul choice at the time.

By FrankM (81.152.61.80) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:06 am:

He and the other 'rebels' went off to back Bill Withers I seem to remember. They toured with Bill (including UK gigs) and were on his live album released at that time.

There is a clip of Bill Wither from that tour recorded for The Old Gray Whistle test played on BBC occasionally and James gadson is to the forefront of the band.

I heard Bobby Womack tell this tale in an inteview but I still think it's apocraphyl. Bobby claimed that to get out of his Beverley Glenn contract he told Moses Smith he was going blind. According to Bobby the next thng he knew was that Stevie Wonder was on the phone offering to do a benefit gig.

Of course this was the same interview that Womack claimed the original title for his country album BW does C&W should have been "Move over Charlie Pride and give another N*** a chance in the saddle."

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 09:36 am:

Frank M
With circumstances varying and reason on vacation many of the musically gifted have made statements that belie their frustrations. Sounds like Bobby was ascribing power to Charlie that Charlie has never ever had. There is only so much assigned room at the top but that ain't Charlie's doing. Where can I find that interview? url???

Everyone
Thanks, a couple of you guys have answered a question I had about when it was that James and Bobby worked together for a prolonged period so as to realize their collaborative potential. All I was aware of is what James and Clarence Mc had told me about those days but Bobby had never been mentioned.

What is Clarence McDonald doing? Last I heard he was on staff at NBC.

Reminder, Folks:
I would like to have copies of any video or pix of James.

RD
I meant to tell you that many times what we say is misread because of lack of or misuse of punctuation. When we go back and review, at times we cannot follow our own trend of thought.
(right Heikki)

By FRANCIS T (195.92.67.71) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

There is a nice mid paced 45 on James Gadson called Go by whats in your heart.Label UNITED Artist.Produced by JJ Jackson&Sonny Burke.Quite collectable now in the UK
Re I thought you were mine both takes are good .I did not realise the speeded up version was influenced by the northern scene as the scene did not really exist in December 69 when the abc cut was recorded.I hope the writer appreciates the northern scene is not guilty this time.We just love the tune.

By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.110) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

Lonnie
please forgive my ignorance
is the Otis Smith that you refer to the same one that also recorded for the Perception record Label as well?
Regards the Natural 4
I have always loved there version of 'I thought you were mine'cut on the Boola Boola Label(no.2082)better than the ABC(no.11253)although theres not a lot in it.
I also like there other 45 on Boola Boola(no.1001)'hanging on to a lie/12 months of the year'.
Although a 70s cut not bad,
always recall the first time of hearing there manic stomping dancer way back in 1975ish of there Chess(no.2119) recording of 'the devil made me do it'
As you say Lonnie
the Boola Boola cut was the choice on the all-nighter scene.
A great record though that still demands a high price today as does the ABC cut and the other track I mentioned on Boola Boola(1001).

Thanks for giving us a masterful
song that still gets played today and still does the buisness.

Did you write the other tracks Lonnie as well as the ones above but theres another 45 on Boola Boola(no.6084)
titled 'why should we stop now/you did this for me'.

regards
mel.

By Lonnie Cook (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 08:24 pm:

Francis
ABC forced the Producer, Willie Hoskins, to speed it up but I do not think it had anything to do with any possible acceptance in your neck of the woods.

Are you coming over here in March 2004? See
www.togethernessonline.com for details.

Mel
The only song I wrote for them was the one you know about. Their manager was Fred Ivey and I worked at his record shop. When I overheard him tell someone that he had a group that he wanted to record but had no song I told him that I could do it. I spent about twelve hours with the group and the producer getting all of the parts learned and dictating the arrangement. After I left that room (1968)I never saw any of those people again until last year (2002) when I went to visit Chris James in Oakland. He is married to John Lee Hooker's daughter, Zakia.

Thank you all for your approval of the song and all the stories that I have heard about it's influence. I am humbled, accordingly.

By JSmith (195.93.50.10) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 12:52 am:

RE: James Gadson; He also had 2 good 45's issued on Cream. One (can't recall the title at present) is a popular item with UK MS fans (other has same title as an old BeachBoys track but is a different song -- "Good Vibrations"?).
LAST ALBUM JAMES PLAYED ON (to my knowledge)...
Vernon Garrett's "When Something Is Wrong With My Baby" on Leon Haywoods Evejim label about a year ago (title track is a duet with Jerry Butlers old singing partner Brenda Lee Eager).

By Lonnie CooK (198.81.26.170) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 02:40 pm:

JSmith
Even today James is much in demand so his last studio gig was probably sometime within the last week.

The picture above is a good depiction of his zeal for his craft. See the expression on his face, they caught him unawares.

Noone has told me the name of the song that James sang when he was daring Charles to sue him, It was the first one on Cream. I do not remember the title, seems like it was "Let me belong..." or something close to that. I will call and ask.

By FRANCIS T (195.92.168.175) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 02:25 pm:

Thanks for your response re speed up.I take your point.I will be in LA with the Togetherness trip next year.I hope we will meet up.
BEST WISHES

FRANCIS T

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:07 pm:

Frances T
Do you know who Hal Davis is? I just made the mistake of posting a note for you on the thread Hal Davis / West Coast Motown, perhaps you were meant to mosy over ther and get an eyeful. Do you participate in the allnighter weekend dances? I hear that one has to be quite athletic to do so, cannot wait to see you guys on the floor. Yeah, I could have told you what I said there but then you would have no need to be inquisitive.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:09 pm:

Francis T., that is!!!

By Frankm (81.152.61.80) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:18 pm:

M
With circumstances varying and reason on vacation many of the musically gifted have made statements that belie their frustrations. Sounds like Bobby was ascribing power to Charlie that Charlie has never ever had. There is only so much assigned room at the top but that ain't Charlie's doing. Where can I find that interview? url???


Hi Lonnie,

This was a
Radio interview from quite a few years ago now possibly ten years. You could tell from the tone of his voice and his laughter that he was probably spinning yarns and enjoying himself. However it's quoted on this written interview http://www.cosmoetica.com/OO4-MT1.htm

By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 01:22 pm:

Someone earlier stated that the Womacks never sang doo wop but as the Program Director at 103.9 in 1962, in Los Angeles, we all considered the Valentinos to be a doo wop group. Our format was doo wop and R&B and we played all their stuff to death. I had Bobby scheduled to go on my show "Doo Wop Always Doo Wop" (on the internet)as a former doowoper and he never denied having sung it. Obviously he considered what they did doo wop. The problem with genre classification stems from the fact that doo wop morphed into what we now call soul. Some of the Miracles early sixties records were doo wop most were not. Most of the R&B groups gradually got away from doo wop. One of the greatest reasons for change was the addition of heavy orchestration, replete with strings, from 1959 on.

By RD (65.150.229.224) on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:49 pm:

Doowopsvoice I was the one who said the Valentinos (Womack Brothers) never sang doo wop and I speak from knowing them via attending the same junior and senior high schools with the some of the brothers and a sibling attending school with and knowing Friendly and Bobby personally.

They never sang doowop or any other type of secular music whist growing up in Cleveland. Ms. Ross' talent shows were very popular affairs at East Technical High School where I and the Womack Brothers attended and no one can remember them ever being on the shows. They never sang at cabarets or bars in the city. Their only singing was at churches and church events. They were strictly a gospel group. The first secular song anybody that knows them heard them sing was "Looking For A Love"; and it, like all their material, has a gospel feel, not a doo wop feel.

Because he appeared on a doo wop show doesn't mean the Valentinos started out singing doo wop cause in fact they didn't and never did to my knowledge and I was there. Some people relate the term doo wop to any group from the sixties and fifties just like some journalist use the word Motown as a generic term for soul music.

Even if you don't know their history only their recordings it's impossible to fathom how you can hear anything doo wop ish in anything they ever made.

By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 02:53 pm:

RD
Tell Bobby he never sang Doo Wop!!!

By RD (65.150.229.64) on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

Dude, I will if i ever see him. You give me one example of a doowop song the Valentinos or Bobby Womack ever recorded? You don't know what you're talking about.

By Lonnie Cook (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:58 am:

Just found the name of the Gadson song I couldn't remember it was "Got to find my Baby" on the Cream label the lyrics are to be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/9769/rb/_art-g/james_gadson.html

The melody is exactly the same as "Loveland".