By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:14 pm:

Hey Folks:
I know we are covering this in other threads but let's hear from some of our experts (Ralph, David, StuBass, Bobby Eli, Weldon, Clay, Dennis Coffey,etc) out there as well as you SD Forum folks on what can be done to make sure the industry is serving us grown-up music fans (who are growing in numbers) and (this is for the industry gang) what are YOU going to do about it.

Mike McLean brought up an interesting analogy as to how music becomes popular. I do believe a certain dreamer named Berry Gordy used this model to some degree.

Mike McLean said:
"1. A distrust exists among the current youth.

2. A musical noise is made.

3. A man with a big cigar takes notice.

4. The act is signed.

5. A record company releases, and promotes, the song.

6. The public listens to the radio and hears the song.

What is wrong with this picture?

I ask for answers.

Annie and I ask for opinions about why the great old system won't work any more."

I feel this is a fine way to start the discussion. Fire away, folks!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:23 pm:

Problem is Kevin, the formula has been somewhat altered to look something like...

1. Distrust with the youth...OK...we still have that.

2. Just plain noise is made.

3. A man with a bag of coke thinks he takes notice.

4. Contracts are still signed.

5. The record company does indeed promote the crap ( the noise that was made ).

6. The unsuspecting public hears the crap on the radio and is led to believe that the crap is good, hence dumbing down the entire operation.

By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:24 pm:

The man with the big cigar is usually ONLY interested in $$$..........

The music itself becomes secondary or worse!!!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:35 pm:

Ralph:
Great response...which highlights the problems indeed!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:53 pm:

INTERESTING TOPIC...AND FUNNY!!!...I JUST (2 MINUTES AGO)...INTERVIEWED A GUY WHO PLAYED IN A GRAMMY AWARD NOMINATED...OR WINNING BAND FOR A LARGE LABEL...WHO NOW WANT'S OUT OF THE MUSIC BUSINESS...AND WANTS TO SETTLE DOWN...RAISE A FAMILY...AND GET INTO AUTOMOTIVE SALES!!!...INTERESTING...BUT PERHAPS A SYMPTOM OF WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE MUSIC BUSINESS TODAY!!!...IT'S HARD TO DO IT FOR TOO LONG A TIME...WITHOUT SUCCUMBING TO SOME OF THE NEGATIVE SIDES OF THE BUSINESS!!!...THE THINGS RALPH MENTIONS...I WOULD SUSPECT...ARE STILL A FACT OF LIFE IN THE BUSINESS!!!...AND ALTHOUGH I'M SURE THAT HE MISSES IT TO SOME EXTENT...PERHAPS THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MY VERY TALENTED BROTHER...WAS TO BECOME A SUCCESSFUL TELEVISION MUSIC COMPOSER...AND NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ALL THE B.S. IN THE RECORDING BUSINESS!!!...DO THE "LOW'S" OUTWEIGH THE "HIGH'S" IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS???...I DON'T KNOW...AND I SUPPOSE TO SOME EXTENT...IT DEPENDS ON WHAT A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL POSSESSES DEEP INSIDE!!!...I DON'T THINK I'VE ANSWERED ANY QUESTIONS HERE...JUST THROWING OUT SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS!!!...STUBASS

By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:26 am:

MY two cents you ask??? :o)
Here it is:

This may not directly answer the question originally being asked, but, I think that the increasing popularity of music VIDEOS may have a little something to do with the decreased focus on MUSIC in the "music"...fact is, IMO, that you need at least three of the following in your video to make it successful (in terms of getting the most viewers, nowadays), which will in turn lead to airplay, which will turn into sales and radio play. Let's face it, the producers for TV video shows like BET's "106th and Park" and MTV's "Total Request Live" have the power in their hands equivalent to that of radio DJ's of the 60's, if not more. And from what I've been seeing lately, if your a male singer, you need in your video:

really beautiful, thin, mostly light-skinned, looooong haired (or least a decent weave), scantily clad women shaking something, rubbing you(or in some videos each other), and pledging their undevoted love for you despite your letting them know that you'll be a "player for life"
(For female singers, you have to BE that beautiful, thin, long haired....)

Big cars, platinum, SOME form of blingedness going on...

Do a collaboration with a hip-hop star/singer/rapper/producer, etc.

And of course, at least 2 or 3 things from the top fashion designers (whether it be clothes, accesories, the fabric on the seats of your car)..you know, Burberry, Fendi, Gucci, etc.

I mean really, I know I'm not the only one who thinks that maybe if great artists like Jill Scott were a size 6, or India Arie were light-skinned with silky hair, they would be getting twice as much video/radio play than they currently get (in others words, ALL of Ashanti's, 'IMO' undeserved video/radio play)...

And one more thing, about the long hair thing, has anyone else noticed that (at least w/ female artists), the longer their hair/weave grows over the years, the worse their music gets?? Look at Toni Braxton, for example. When she first came onto the scene, she was IT. She looked great, sounded good...it was something fresh and new and everybody (OK most of us) loved it. Seen any of her new videos lately? Bad songs, bad weave, bad sales...you get the picture. Or even Monica...same story. I just PRAY that that "HAVE to have long hair to look good and sell records" syndrome doesn't get ahold of Anita Baker when she comes back. I think that'd be the last straw for me. A friend of mine said she read somewhere that it's actually and ego thing (with the hair). When an artist first tastes success, it does a little something to their ego, and larger it grows, the larger the hair (or longer, in some cases). And when I thought about it, it made perfect sense! Look at Diana Ross (perfect example), how her hair has grown bigger and bigger and bigger over the years, even before she left the Supremes. Beyonce of Destiny's Child, Christina Aguilera, (Michael Jackson??), maybe even Tamyra Gray of American Idol...remember the first few months she had that short little fro?

Well once again, I have successfully strayed completely away from the original topic of discussion...Sorry, but I really did set out to just answer your question, Kev :o)

By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:04 am:

It's all about the money, not about art. The business today is run by attorneys and CPA's who wouldn't creativity if it bit them in their collective butts. It's also too trendy, when something gets hot, everyone else tries to clone it. There are too many people with minimal or no talent getting all of the success, while the more talented and creative are getting shut out. Plus many of the "songs" that are hits today are total crap.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:10 am:

I must confess, I started to lose interest in the music business, when the industry's priorities switched from "music" to "business".

By TonyRussi (68.18.39.39) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:39 am:

Radio playlist are controlled by just a few media giants like Clear Channel, who have attained legalized PAYOLA therefore squashing any competetion.There is no independent distribution and as everyone acknowledges the Business aspect has destroyed the artistry.

By Nancy (24.156.108.159) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:08 am:

Remember the Days when Berry Gordy used to have his quality control meetings, that is what we are missing the quality control. Someone said to me that if you cannot look good in a music video these days no matter how good your music is your music is going to go no where. its a case of dress it up and maybe we won't notice how bad the music is. and the comments that I hear from some of the younger kid is did you see that video wasn't it cool, they are not commenting on the song or the performance it is just the video. When you look at the quality of motown at its best there is hardly a song that someone was not humming to during their day at work, but look at what happened they got interested in making movies and doing other things but paying attention to the music, so without rambling on to much more I agree with what everyone is saying the business is taking the artistry out of the music

By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:18 am:

KevGO,

Got your email and it makes all the sense in the world. It's on the right path. I will talk with you of line soon. However, The problem with the Music business is simple. Cheap product....Big Price. If they only provide garbage to the people...Then the People will only pick the best of the garbage. Not an avenue for the creation of greatness is it? Someone said it right in a previuos thread. Provide us with good music for the price and chances are we will purchase the product. Todays product is lame. It has no natural groove which inturn can not tug at the heart. In majority of the cases, It has no B-section coming out of a verse to create enough tension to have a release at the hook which in turn gives you that great feeling of emotions. Today...everyone is singing about getting some or giving some and how they are going to do you or me or everyone's momma better than anybody else. Music is about emotion. Good song writing tells a tale both lyrically and musically. As I have said before. In the pop/soul world the hook has to be satisfying and everything leading up to it has to carry the listener to that release. It's about "Feel Good". I could go on about the concept of writing, however, if that kind of product was available it would raise the bar for the active and future product. In my opinion, without intending to create an issue within this one, The current country market is one if last markets to still use this approach. They have a loyal fan base which is hugh. They still have GREAT players laying down tracks which are coming out of Nashville. And in the overall product, all that "Feel Good" shows in the Artist and the audience. The big record execs could learn quite a bit from the country scene. Todays, R&B, Pop and Rock scenes are governed by inexperience individuals which has been the result of shitty product. What do we do...? We take individuals like Eli, Ralph, Babbitt, Pete and yourself (sorry if I missed other greats on the forum) who have been there and know what's truely happening and create great product for the adult base. Believe me when I say the younger audience will fall in line when they are moved. Bottom line is a great Groove and hook will do it everytime. It just has to be provided. A lot of great successful artists and writiers have been waiting for the current status of music to come to an end. What needs to happen is they are the ones who need to create the change of direction. That's what I meant by stating in a previous thread that I am ready to do exactly that with any individual on this forum who get its and is ready to bust ass. There are great musical resources on this forum that have the experience and ability to make that happen. I'm through preaching. But the answer is quite simple.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:12 am:

A generation or so ago a group of movie stars got fed up with being dictated to by the powerful companies. The so called " studio system " called the tune and all were expected to dance to it. So this daring group of stars formed their own company, United Artists, and the rest is history. I suppose what we have today is a similar situation. A select group of companies controls the show, and the show is not all that good. It may be possible for, as Kevin suggests, some of us to unite and form our own company in order to surpass the powers that be. I think it would be an extremely complex undertaking with many, many detais to be addressed and worked out. Not an impossible task though. It's something we need to be thinking about

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:24 am:

Exactly Right On The Money Ralph. It will be very complex but can and should be accomplished. Do you feel like being a record exec..?

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:29 am:

Like I said Horse, we would need to figure a lot of things out. Not an easy task considering the geography of the situation.

By Common (209.2.55.168) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:29 am:

Hello everyone,

Basically, everyone covered all the bases as it pertains to why music isn't what it used to be. But just to add to what JoB said, I think that videos could've been effective had they been used in more "constructive" manner. What I mean is, is that it is a great marketing tool but it's being used in the wrong way. Most of these videos have the same theme. These videos look more like personal statements(about wealth, jewelry females, etc) that say "I got it & you don't". It doesn't offer a message or any kind of imagination. Music with substance & the visual could work together well hand & hand but with the current state of talent, unfortunately, video is relied on heavily as a promotional tool. The music has always been about business but with advent of corporate takeovers, merges & technology, the musical aspect is taking a beating.

But more importantly, I would have to say that some adults have dropped the ball, when it comes to passing down the music of yesteryear. We don't teach kids to appreciate music & to expand upon it. When music & art funding is cut, what do you expect? The lack of music programs has hurt alot of communities, especially, urban. So with that, you are going to get kids who don't have a clue about the whats, whys, & hows of the music but are more interested in sampling a slammin beat from their mom & dad's record collection.

Peace!

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:19 pm:

OK!!!...STUBASS ON THE "DEVILS ADVOCATE" PATH HERE JUST FOR A MOMENT...SINCE THIS DISCUSSION IS PERHAPS BECOMING A BIT TOO "HOMOGONIZED"!!!...MY QUESTION TO ALL IS...WHAT THE F&#$ IS WRONG WITH MAKING MONEY???...I GET THE IMPRESSION THAT SOME OF MY FRIENDS HERE ARE SAYING THAT "MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"...AND TO THAT...I WOULD HAVE TO COP TO REVEREND IKE...WHO SAY'S..."*LACK* OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!!!...ARTISTRY...SCHMARTISTRY!!!...IF YOU CAN'T PAY YOUR BILLS...FEED YOUR FAMILY...PUT SOME DUCKETS DOWN FOR THE FUTURE...THEN WHAT GOOD IS ALL THE BEAUTIFUL MUSIC ONE CAN MAKE IN THEIR LIFETIME GONNA DO THEM...OTHER THAN TO PERHAPS LEAVE A GREAT LEGACY...DIE BROKE...AND HAVE A STATUE BUILT OF YOURSELF IN SOME PARK AFTER YOU'RE DEAD THAT PIDGEONS WILL JUST CRAP ALL OVER!!!...A WISE PERSON ONCE SAID THAT THE *KEY TO LIFE* IS..."TO FIND SOMETHING YOU LIKE TO DO...AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET SOMEONE TO *PAY* YOU TO DO IT"!!!...SO ALL I'M SAYING HERE IS... LETS NOT GET DOWN ON PEOPLE WHO LOOK TO MAKE MONEY...HELL..EVEN GET RICH OFF THE MUSIC BUSINESS...SO LONG AS IT'S DONE IN A LEGITIMATE...MORAL...AND ETHICAL WAY...AND SOMETIMES...WHO THE HELL IS TO SAY JUST WHAT IS LEGITIMATE...MORAL...AND ETHICAL...AND I'M NOT SURE THAT THE ARBITOR OF THAT DECISION SHOULD BE SOME BITTER PERSON WHO TRIED AND FAILED...AND NOW LIKES TO TELL EVERYONE ELSE THE WAY IT *SHOULD * BE DONE...BECAUSE THEY CAN'T COMPETE IN THE WAY THAT IT *IS* DONE!!!...OR AS JERRY BUTLER SAID..."ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE"!!!...SORRY FOR BEING SO TOUGH HERE...BUT THE REALITY IS...AT LEAST TO ME...IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE WANTS...THEY WILL PAY YOU FOR IT...AND YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH CALL THE SHOTS!!!...IF YOU DON'T...THEN IT'S "HASTA LAVISTA BABY"!!!...STU (WATCHIN THE BOTTOM LINE)BASS

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:01 pm:

Stu:
Your point was and is well made. The late Billy Eckstine made a similar commentary in many interviews during his life and career.

Ralph:
Is there any way you and I can talk directly about the label venture we've been discussing. Horse raised some damned good points and I understand your concern about it being a serious undertaking (by the way, I re-read the Tera Shirma Story which inspired me to create this thread - I know you still have that "fire in the soul" from when you had the TS Studio). I'll email my direct phone number to your attention.

Horse:
Hey man - great to see you again! Please, let's get this thing rolling. I expect to hear from you soon.

To Everyone:
Great comments from you folks! I'm learning quite a bit from your comments and concerns. Hopefully, those of us who are in the business can & will take this ifno to heart and mind & turn out talented singers, groups and music.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

One thing nobody's seemed to mention yet (or maybe they did, and I'm just blind) is the rise of "independent" web based distribution, where a group cuts a CD, distributes and promotes it themselves, and does pretty good at it. There was an article a while back about They Might Be Giants who use that form of distribution, and have had fairly good sucuess with the concept. I would assume labels like Norton do basically the same thing. Can someone in the biz comment on the concept?

By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:14 pm:

Stu,

There is nothing wrong with making money. And you're right. If you have something that somebody wants to pay for you will probably able to call the shots. People want drugs and will pay for them. People want other people knocked off and will pay for that too. I don't think morals or legitimacy is what's in question here. Berry made a lot of money too. However, he made it from selling good product. I'm just saying there is a great market for great music as an alternative to the selection available today. Money is not the root of all evil. People are the root of all evil. However, great amounts of money in the wrong hands can contribute immensely to the creation of GARBAGE. Would you enjoy playing bass behind the likes of David Ruffin and Marvin or some gang bang rap artist with a shitty drum loop? We just crave a good groove and hook with a quality vocal and can't get it from the current record biz. HELP..!

By Michael/cleoharve (160.79.83.208) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:23 pm:

I think that the industry has become more and more geared to one specific market and that has narrowed what we are hearing. The record companies are basically putting out music for teenagers. To some extent they have always done that but now it seems epidemic and other groups are being ignored. It seems really strange for record sales reports show that Cher, The Beatles, James Taylor, The Dixie Chicks, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Elton John, Rod Stewart Bruce Springsteen, Yolanda Adams, Josh Groban, Isley Brothers, Norah Jones, Santana et al are selling millions of records (Cher's recently released album has outsold Madonna's 2-1) and the "older" audience is where the companies should be placing more emphasis. Somehow the record companies don't seem to get it. There is a place for hip-hop, rap, country, and "older skewed" music. The emphasis should not be on one market.

On the music specifically, there is a lack of melody and some of the worst engineering I have ever heard. When I am watching BET, MTV, VH-1, I have to turn up the television to actually hear what is being sung or said, really terrible!!! I tend to compare a great ballad to a song like Ashford & Simpsons "Is It Still Good to Ya" or a great uptemp to Whitfield/Strong/Temptations "I Can't Get Next to You for the effect they had on me when I first heard them. There is nothing being produced like that, or there is, we are not hearing them.

By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:45 pm:

Michael,

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the one market thing. As far as engineering. That is due to a lack of good ears and experience which goes hand in hand with a quality song. Inexperience on the part of the execs also contributes to the poor quality approach and ignoring the additional markets. You can produce a much better product if you have the ability and knowledge regarding how to use the tools regardless of what the product is. Too much instant gradification going on which doesn't leave much for the next generation of creators. FOUNDATION is the key.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:51 pm:

HEY HORSE (MY MAN)!!!...I DID SAY "LEGITIMATE...MORAL...AND ETHICAL"...SO FOR THE DRUG DEALING...AND GANGLAND STYLE "HITS"...I THINK THAT BY MOST ANYONES SENSE OF VALUES...THOSE THINGS ARE "OFF THE SCALE"...ALTHOUGH IT'S QUITE INTERESTING THAT THIS WEEK...NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE HAS A STORY ON THE "LEGITIMIZING" OF THE PORN INDUSTRY!!!...PORN KINGS ARE SENDING THEIR KIDS TO THE SAME PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN L.A. AS ANDY GARCIA...AND MANY SO CALLED "LEGITIMATE" INDUSTRY FAMILIES!!!...AND THEY ARE BEING ACCEPTED WITHIN THESE CIRCLES...SO CERTAINLY THE BAR RISES AND LOWERS BASED ON CULTURAL MORES OF THE TIMES!!!...ANOTHER INTERESTING TIDBIT...JUST OFF THE WIRES!!!...APPARENTLY JENNIFER LOPEZ (J-LO) IS SUING HER MANAGER-AGENT...BENNY MEDINA...FOR ILLEGALLY ACTING AS BOTH HER MANAGER AND AGENT...AND NOW WANTS ALL THE MONEY BACK THAT SHE PAID BENNY OVER THE YEARS!!!...THATS GRATITUDE FOR YOU!!!...I SUPPOSE THAT *SHE* WOULD THEN BE WILLING TO RETURN ALL THE FAME AND FORTUNE THAT SHE AQUIRED OVER THE YEARS WITH BENNY AT THE HELM???...RIGHT!!!...UNFORTUNATLY...THE MARKETPLACE DECIDES WHAT SELLS AND DOESN'T...AT LEAST IN OUR CULTURE!!!...OTHER CULTURES...LIKE THE FORMER SOVIET UNION...CHINA...CUBA...AND MANY OTHER CLOSED SOCIETIES HAVE DECIDED FOR THEIR CITIZENS JUST WHAT SHOULD BE POPULAR...AND THAT THEN BECOMES THE CHOICE THAT THE POPULACE IS ALLOWED TO BE EXPOSED TO!!!... I...FOR ONE...DON'T WANT ANY "CULTURAL POLICE FORCE" DECIDING FOR ME JUST WHAT IS APPROPRIATE TO LISTEN TO....SO AS MUCH AS WE CHAGRIN OVER THE POPULARITY OF CERTAIN ART FORMS...THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS...AND SO LONG AS PEOPLE CHOOSE TO PLUNK THEIR MONEY DOWN FOR CERTAIN (LEGITIMATE) PRODUCTS THAT WE MAY NOT APPRECIATE...WE MUST THEN ASK OURSELVES THE QUESTION... WHY DOES THE SPERM WHALE...THE LARGEST MAMMAL KNOWN ON THE ENTIRE PLANET...HAVE AN ESPHOGOUS SMALLER THAN THE SIZE OF A QUARTER???...AND THE ANSWER...OF COURSE... BECOMES...*BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT IS*!!!...STUBASS

By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:05 pm:

Right on my theological friend. But you never said who you rather gig with...! And which gender of whale had the small throat....!

ps. Remember what Bruce Hornsby said about "That's Just The Way It Is"....!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:23 pm:

Geez Kevin. I would think that after re-reading the Tera Shirma story you would be discouraged from trying anything.

By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:24 pm:

Not a music industry person, just a fan, of course. But the health of this industry concerns me, so...

1. I think artists who are earnest about their art need to also actively cultivate their understanding of the business side, or at least embrace the role of "creative facilitator" a la Jerry Butler and his Writers' Workshop (I would love to see something like that occur - having a panel like Eli, Ralph, the Funk Bros, Mr. McMurray, Mr. McDougal, Bunny Sigler, and other giants of the industry just sit down and teach budding writers, instrumentalists, artists, engineers, etc. the tricks of the trade, so they at least have a foundation to work with). This happens a lot in jazz informally, old cats teaching the "young lions" the way it's done. That solves the creative side, just providing a rich musical palette for young people starting out, show them the importance of melodies, creative song styles, originality, etc.

2. From an image perspective - the wrong image is promoted, as everyone here has mentioned before. There are a few artists out there in recent years who are making great music, but their music wasn't promoted well - Adriana Evans comes to my mind. What can be done to make great musicians competitive in the marketplace in the world of Ashanti's and Britneys? Well, the only thing I can think of is having some of our music business aces taking over somehow. I have no particular plan in mind, just a coup d'etat, perhaps! :-)

3. RECORD THE CLASSIC ARTISTS, PLEAAASE!!!! This is more personal preference. You don't know how happy I am when I play my Bunny Sigler CD or my Betty Lavette CD. Reissues are nice, but if I have a chance to support great artists current material, I jump. I crave the day when I can hear new material from Ruth Brown or Billy Griffin or Darlene Love.

4. If the business is run by attorneys and CPAs, at least find attorneys and CPAs who care about the art. As a future atty (Lord willin'), I want to make career decisions that promote the health of the music industry and the artist. I KNOW there are lawyers out there practicing right now who feel that way. Use them, so when you want to undertake a great musical venture, someone is in your corner who has both the legal acumen necessary for the business, and the passion for the music ensuring that s/he will negotiate persuasively enough to keep your original artistic vision intact.


JoB - LOL @ your expert "long on weave, short on talent" theory!
That's about all I would say on it.

By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:33 pm:

Another sage piece of advice my Jerry Butler gave me - "It's called SHOW BUSINESS, and if artists were smart, they'd put the business before the show."

Making money is fine (oh believe me, it is), I just have utter faith in the fact that the music the pros on this board have it in them to make music that will make money if it is promoted correctly. And that's what I'd like to see, some sort of power shift in the industry enabling real artists to make real money for their work. The classic soul labels we all love made tons of money, they also produced musical masterpieces. I don't think the notions of commercialism and creativity clashes unless you have some sort of a disconnect (i.e., lawyers and CEOs who know nothing about art, and artists who know nothing about business). If the business movers and shakers were as artistically minded as BG, Al Bell, etc., we wouldn't see the gaping divide we see today in the music business between creativity and commerce.

By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

Right On Nish..!

By TonyRussi (68.18.39.39) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:40 pm:

Hey KevGo,How is Maalaco Records doing ? As far as I know they were Independent and one of the last "Soul" labels producing new music.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:45 pm:

Ralph:
C'mon! You were at the right place at the right time with the right business. As you said, when the music industry went ga-ga over the West Coast, many cities suffered and Detroit was near the top of the list.

Everytime I listen to my now-worn-out copy of Isaac's "Hot Buttered Soul" I can now picture the recording session because of the Tera Shirma thread. It was records like Isaac's that made me want to be in this business.

I would like to know more about Powerhouse Productions as well.

From your experience, Ralph, I've learned what made TS a success. That's what's inspiring to me.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

Tony:
Malaco Music is still alive and well from what I gather. Check out their website.

www.malaco.com

Nish:
Your point is well made but keep in mind that SHOW and BUSINESS must be balanced equally.

When it's mainly SHOW the business can get neglected to the point where an artist or executive can lose whatever they have. Look at the artists who have money or tax problems - some of these folks leave the "business" to people they hire to handle this aspect and turn a blind eye. Or in the case of Al Bell, he was tight with his artists on Stax/Volt Records but negotiated a bad distribution deal with CBS Records where they advanced him a lot of money and hit him with a high interest rate for repayment (a manuever that some companies use in the hopes of "buying out" that label).

At the same time if it's mostly BUSINESS and not show the artistry can & will suffer to the point where the artist may feel burned out after grinding out record after record, performance after performance. Then, when they collapse the whole machine falls apart. We discussed this many months ago when Mariah Carey did her interview with NBC'S Dateline.

As long as there is a balance - like Jerry Butler has done successfully (music publishing, label owner - Fountain Records, promoter of his own releases when he was on Mercury) - there will be quality music that will make money.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:27 pm:

I appreciate the kind words and good thoughts Kev.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

HEY HORSE!!!...THATS EASY...YOU AND ME BUD...LAYIN DOWN A MEAN BEAT AND GETTIN IN A GROOVE "ALL DAY LONG"!!!...AS FOR THE WHALE...I DUNNO THE SEX OF THE WHALE...NOR DO I CARE TO HAVE SEX WITH A WHALE!!!...STUBASS

By Scratcher (65.238.127.7) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:10 pm:

Malaco Records still puts out great southern soul recordings but they don't sell many copies cause they do little promotion. The owner, however, has been very successful in copyright infringement cases winning monies and royalties for his publishing company and the writers' of the songs, which is often the first money the writers ever received. One particular case is amazing cause even after repeated listening, I can't hear the sample.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:31 pm:

HEY NISH!!!...BUT LET'S NOT FORGET THAT SOME ARTISTS DON'T CARE WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO HEAR...ONLY WHAT THEY CARE TO PRODUCE...AND CAN ATTAIN A CERTAIN LEVEL OF STUBBORN EGOTISM!!!...SOME OF THE ARTISTS (A SMALL PERCENTAGE) DISCOVER A "LOOPHOLE" IN THE POPULAR TRENDS OF THE DAY...AND SUCCEED BY BREAKING AWAY FROM THE PACK!!!...BUT MORE OFTEN...MOST OF THE PEOPLE WITH THIS ATTITUDE END UP BROKE...BITTER...AND UNAPPRECIATED!!!...SOME...GAIN RECOGNITION AFTER THEY ARE LONG GONE...GOOD FOR THEIR HEIRS...BAD FOR THEM!!!...IF WE DO NOT KEEP A CLOSE EAR TO THE PULSE OF SOCIETY...UNFORTUNALTY...WE USUALLY WILL NOT SUCCEED...AT LEAST COMMERCIALLY!!!...IF ONE CHOOSES TO BUCK THE TRENDS...THATS CERTAINLY OK WITH ME...SO LONG AS THEY REALIZE THAT THEIR MUSIC WILL PROBABLY NEVER MAKE IT OUT OF THEIR BASEMENT!!!...THE PUBLIC MAY NOT BE TALENTED...BUT THEY'RE NOT STUPID EITHER...AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY LIKE!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:35 pm:

PS TO THAT LAST THOUGHT!!!...I USED TO THINK THAT YOU SHOULD TREAT PEOPLE THE WAY THAT *YOU* WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED!!!...THAT CONCEPT WAS HAMMERED INTO MY HEAD FROM AN EARLY AGE!!!...PROBLEM IS...IT'S WRONG!!!...I HAVE LEARNED...THROUGH THE YEARS...THAT YOU SHOULD TREAT PEOPLE THEY WAY THAT *THEY* WANT TO BE TREATED!!!...WORKS A LOT BETTER...SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE PERCEPTION TO FIGURE IT OUT!!!...STUBASS

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:34 pm:

Veteran record man Jehryl Busby, formerly of Motown, MCA, Casablanca and Dreamworks is running Def Jam Classics in L.A. and is interested in signing only classic veteran acts and that is a GOOD thing.
Patti Labele is his first signing and he is after some more classic acts who are labelless.
Kudos to Jehryl B.!!

By Fred (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:11 pm:

When music became "product," marketing became more important than creation, and that started the death spiral. Music videos accelerated the degeneration, but are no longer as important a marketing tool because there is nowhere to see many of them anymore, especially for new acts.

The majors labels are almost proud of the claim (just from the number of times they repeat it) that only one of ten releases make a profit, but if you believe ANY number the labels quote you are already playing a losing hand. In any other walk of life, you bat .100 and you are out of business. This mindset, however much it is based on creative accounting, requires that the label executives focus on finding the "next" Britney or 'NSync, and if they sound and look like the original, they figure the odds of success are better. So we get cookie cutter acts, who have to be a big hit out of the box or they are gone.

The first key to revitalizing the music business is in rediscovering the concept of artist development. Let a kid or a band fail the first time on CD, and maybe even a second, but if they are touring and finding an audience who will stick with them, there can be long term growth.
Love it or hate it, the rap labels seem to understand this better than the rock and pop guys, which is why the genre remains vital.

The second key is redefining "success" of a release. There is just not enough disposable income among consumers for even half of the released records to go platinum (which is essentially what is necessary for a major label release to break even these days). Cut back the budgets, including the humongous advances that doom 95% acts to swim in red ink on royalty statements forever. Enter into a true partnership with the talent, including ownership of the master recordings. Forget royalties entirely and simply split the profits, even if this includes the label getting a share of live performance fees. The old relationships are tied to a system that is sinking under its own weight.

The third key is simply going back to the well: SINGLES, SINGLES, SINGLES. i-Tunes and the other available (if illegal) options are proving that single track downloads predominate. It is also no coincidence that the majors started slipping more quickly when they stopped producing singles.
Singles are cheap to produce, compared to a full length CD, and appropriately priced, can bring a whole generation of consumers back to the market they have abandoned. Combine singles by compatible artists into low priced compilations.

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:04 am:

And now Artists are pulling out of I-Tunes refusing to sell individual tracks as it destroys their "artistic vision" of a whole concept L.P.
What art?What vision?What concept?

Me thinks the corporate giants don't like the idea of singles as it doesn't allow them to wrap a single around a dozen other tracks of crap and charge $20 for it as opposed to $1 downloads.They seem to be after margin instead of volume and longevity.

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:18 pm:

I was reading an article in Dub magazine where several "artists" including Missy Elliott claim that the rims on their vehicles are more important than anything else, the bigger and flashier the better.

Let me just say this. The people with the real money are just as happy driving a pickup truck as Sam Walton of wal- Mart did.
The real moneyed folks have no need to flaunt the "how ya like me now" personna and IMO I will bet that a very large majority of the rap community will be slinging burgers or worse five years from now.

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:21 pm:

Also, another predictionis that the dealerships will be inundated with used Bentleys and Lamborghinis and the pawn shops will be overflowing with "the bling".

By M.McLeanTech (66.159.217.198) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 05:21 pm:

Ralph,

Regarding your post: Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:12 am:

It was a whole lot more then, as you state: "A generation ago..." that United Artists Films was formed by Douglas Fairbanks Sr., his wife Mary Pickford, D.W Griffith, and Charlie Chaplin.

I believe that it was about 1929, and they built a huge movie lot near the corner of Santa Monica Blvd. and La Brea, in Hollywood.

Later, Samuel Goldwyn bought out the original owners, and the lot became known as "The Samuel Goldwyn Studios." The sound track for the original "Star Wars" was mixed there.

Berry Gordy Jr.'s "Mowest" studios were a block away, under the direction of Guy Costa, right behind the "Boy's Market" on Santa Monica Blvd.

After Samuel Goldwyn died, Warner Bros. purchased the lot, and it became known as "Warner Hollywood
Studios." I worked there for a couple of years around the time of "Operation Desert Storm," the so called "Gulf War." At that time, I spent many nights working on a film called "Glory," about the Civil War, starring Denzel Washington.

I hope that this clears up this matter.

By the way, I am totally blown away by the fantastic response that has been posted on this thread. Where else could you ask a simple question and get such a fantastic answer?

Many times in the past, simple questions about technology have resulted in fantastic answers from me. What a pleasure to be on the other end of the pipe. I ask the simple question, and all these wonderful experts flood me with answers.

I just can't tell all you nice folks how much I appreciate all your excellent responses.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I am so utterly moved that I am going to reconsider my opinion about the forum from the ground up. Perhaps it actually has some value!

Sincerely,

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.159.217.198) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 06:06 pm:

Fred, Regarding your post: Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:12 am:

This is simply a hum-dinger! There is no doubt in my mind that you know what you are talking about!

By Fred (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 12:20 am:

Thanks, Mike.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 01:32 am:

HEY MIKE!!!...I'M GETTIN HUNGRY!!!...LOOK FORWARD TO CHOWIN (NOT MY DOG) DOWN WITH YOU!!!...STUBASS

By WaltBaby (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:43 am:

Music once was about hearing a great tune and letting your IMAGINATION take you away on an out -of-body experience. Back then all that mattered was how well you could deliver a song. When the video came along, you no longer had to use your IMAGINATION anymore. They gave you the image that they wanted you to see and what really mattered wasn't how well the song was delivered but what you saw.
Now it has been said that if you can control what you see, what you hear, what you smell and what you taste: You can not only control how they think, predict how they will react. THIS IS PSYCHOLOGY Ladies & Gentlemen!
Lastly, these companies have developed a product (compact disc) that costs less in raw materials to manufacture than a vinyl album and doubled the price.

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:43 am:

The is a young female named Lumidee who has a hit right now who makes Ashanti sound like Aretha.
She is by far the most out of tune person I have ever heard and the people who buy this crap have got to be tone deaf.
Is this where we are headed?? Ouch !!!!!!!!

By JoB (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:08 pm:

...ooooh my Goooood Eli....I thought I was the only one who noticed!!! I have no words to express how little talent she seems to posess...it really IS sad because her song is actually on the BET's "106th and Park" top ten list ( on their daily countdown). Like I said earlier from my first post on this thread, she has exactly what it takes to make it in today's music industry...the right look, long hair, and a collaboration with at least one (in this song's case two) hip-hop artist...but absolutely NO ability to sing. It's sad, because yes, she DOES make Ashanti sound good...

By Mr. Magic (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 08:24 pm:

What I have come to notice is that my generation is so stuck on music videos. If a fan doesn't see your video on tv, most likely your CD won't sell as much. Todays music has no meaning because so many artist are corrupting young minds. Today's songs talk about sex & revenge, but they have no meaning.

For some reason, that type of music is selling big. One of the reasons why I want to become a record producer is to show people that music is just not about just putting a few words together, but have a message and a sign of hope for people who are listening.

Years from now, most of these rap and hip hop artist will be older and wiser. But just watch and see how many will get a lifetime achievement award for there work in the industry. What you never see is many rap/hip hop artist get honored, but you do see more R&B/Soul singers get more recognition.

I may be putting my generation of music artist down, but it is well deserved. I have a plan for the music industry, and by the grace of GOD, it shall work.


Raymon
(And hello to Mike)

By hoz (216.24.66.185) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 08:48 pm:

Hello everyone-- I've enjoyed reading your posts very much. I've been writing songs for around twenty years,and am active in the fight for writer's royalties being KEPT by the writers (what a concept!) which might (tho I doubt it, judging by the roster) qualify me for a small addition to the words of the ones on this site I've been learning from. I'll try to keep it short.

While Napster (and others) have certainly robbed many deserving R&B artists and others of their rightful royalties, there might be a diamond in the manure of the music business yet to be found.

When people aren't getting what they want, they go looking.

They went looking, and Napster was waiting. The glass houses of the Industry were strewn with rock holes and glass shards. Writers wept and shook their fists. Heads are still rolling. (i.e./ Sony Nashville, etc)

Now, with the popularity of Steve Job's venture with 99cent downloads (and others who are reinventing music marketing), there might be hope for some of the artists of yore as well as good new artists to either get some long overdue money or find a hole in the brick wall to emerge as the fresh new stars of tomorrow.

And as twisted as it may seem, that punk who started Napster might ironically end up being the angel who saves us from the eternal hell of mediocrity.

Go figure.

Best wishes to all--and thanks to the administrators for a great site

hoz

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.60.216) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 06:35 pm:

Hoz,

You hit it right on the head! The 10 inch 78, and later, the vinyl 45, combined with radio and the "record shop listening booth" to create a comfortable environment for music lovers to purchase popular tunes (songs.)

The demand of the public will rise again. Indeed, you have put your finger on exactly the kind of point where the correction will start!

When it comes, the hunger for musical quality will result in a landslide. It will be the 50's and 60's all over again!

What a thrill this thread is!!!

Mike McLean

By Des (81.152.235.231) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 07:19 pm:

Man, do I agree with Hoz and MikeMcLean !!!!
I hope KevGo catches this thread,I hope he'd agree with the essence of Hoz's point that "the market" will seek out quality and new talent will get "sold" or,more prosaically,find it's niche and provide joy to its' listeners.
I failed to articulate this earlier last week and,like Mike-M,am delighted by Hoz's post - it's logical and optimistic.
This really is a great Site !!!!

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.41.152) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 08:34 pm:

Des,

Thank you for your appreciation of the fantastic, and powerful, reality that Hoz posted.

Don't forget that without Kevin Goins, this wonderful thread would not exist.

I dispise phonyness. I had given up on the forum until, out of the blue, I met Keven in Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA.

We had a few drinks in his Motel-6 room. I had all but one. Kevin is like a man devoted to Jesus, when it comes to his love of soul music. I was overwhelmed by his serious dedication.

Another poor soul who has been misunderstood is "Mr. Magic." He may be awkward in the way he presents his ideas, but he has a heart of gold. I am going to seek his friendship on my next trip back to Philadelphia, to be with my dear Annie.

Mr. Magic had made me feel more understanding toward StuBass. He can't help the fact that he uses all CAPS, and almost never uses a paragraph break. Just because such things make his ideas easier to read, it has nothing to do with reality.

I feel that we (now that I am convinced that the forum is worth while) should all try to use the tools of proper writing to make our presentation less difficult to read.

Love,

Mike McLean

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.41.152) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 09:03 pm:

I would like to add a thought:

I feel that the success of the music business, on 78 and 45 records, has proven beyond a doubt that pure music has a proper place in the mind of all blue collar, "popular" human beings that love music.

This is a time of great opportunity: A new world of pop tunes is coming. Kevin is right. We, who love popular music, are off the road with our locomotive, in the mud filled ditch. We may rise without steam, but there is no question that we will rise.

Boredom is coming to the current "sensation" formula. If there was any real desire for it to move in a further direction, there would be letters to law makers requesting that stars of videos take off their tops and panties.

Where would we be if the love process was deprived of the sense of allure?

The blue collar public knows this, and when they get tired of Burlesque: The desire for good music will suddenly seem like an astonishing novelty.

Mike McLean

By Des (81.152.235.231) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 09:23 pm:

Mike/ I'm with you on all counts.The feeling I was trying to put over re.Kev was that I,personally,thought that he was,that day perhaps,a little too "down" on the future prospects of good music finding its' way to the ears,hearts and minds of those that do not accept the vacuous "style over content" that is,regrettably,the mass-market forum of today (not only in Soul/Dance/R&B -- but also in the Rock/Pop world,too,of course).I'm sure Kev and others may have reservations about how optimistic we all can be here,but I am delighted to read a well expressed,logical overview that leaves you feeling positive.
Des

By Clay (68.73.57.65) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 03:42 am:

Hi Guys,
I feel that the great music,musicians,writers,producers and various successful labels were like first class restaurants
and niteclubs.

You had to know the difference between good & bad service, dress accordingly to enter one as they greeted you with respect and a menue that gave you a list of well prepared choices of food and entertainment to choose from. The chefs and musicicans were well trained masters of their trade and took pride in serving you with their very best.

Today, they've all become bad fast food joints and
the clubs have become showcases for anyone who has the nerve to get on the stage with little or no real talent to speak of. I'm not sure why it all got loss other than the fact that once the BIG record companies got rid of the independents like
Motown, Philly International,Stax,HDH,Whitfield, Sussex,Scepter,20th Century and a few others that dominated the charts for years with classy multi-hit records, they sought to find a cheaper more controlled method of directing the industry by
allowing kids who had little knowledge of real music(music 101 in the schools was eliminated) and contract small print(I can make beats and I don't need an old lawyer telling me what to do) It allowed the average person to make a cheap record
in the streets and basements of America without going thru the musicians unions,arrangers,music publishers,and producers that they had to deal with according to the real rules that were previously established. It became a quick way to spend $20,000
to make $20,000,000 and not have to deal with the
dominating independents who could one day make the Majors obselete. They used their Big bucks and politics to control distribution,radio,marketing and promotions. R&B as we knew it became Urban,Neo-Soul,Old School and several other names that I don't care to mention.

The people that once gave you real R&B music with hit after hit became relics who could no longer provide the new industry with their once lucritive ideas and talent that made one music publishing company worth a BILLION dollars before it was split up and sold in pieces.

The state of the industry today is SAD to say the least,the covers have been pulled off of the big labels and the real interior is being exposed to the current artist as well as the public. The airways play the same 60-100 records at every main
stream station in America without allowing any room
for the real R&B and POP music that paved the way for those in power. Sure, they play oldies but a lot of the acts are still making new records that no one will ever here (A real lack of respect). It's true that everyting must change,but it does'nt
mean elimate the true history of the music business

Greed,lies and A&R stupidity have destroyed the music business,not the internet or free downloading
The industry is finally getting what it deserves,a
BIG KICK in the ASS. It's time for those who are able and ready to change things to get together and
create the independent labels and distributors once
more,why...? because we know it works.

Peace

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:06 pm:

Hey Gang:

First of all, I want to thank Mike McLean for providing the question that helped launch this thread.

FRED � I agree wholeheartedly with your post. There is too much emphasis on �product� & not enough on �artist development� (singles can help develop an artist). I hear that Queen Latifah�s new record label is following along the formula you mentioned in the second paragraph of your post (split the profits & ownership of masters).

RE: NAPSTER � Napster was the shape of things that later came. The major labels called it a threat to (their) artists� royalties when it was really the Robin Hood to music lovers. Like I said before, if the majors hadn�t raised CD prices to damn near $17.98 a pop, music buyers would not have turned to sources such as Napster (and now Steve Jobs) for their music.

CLAY � The reason why I started Libra Records is because of my desire to develop artists and music for an adult audience that has been neglected by the major labels� ongoing mining of the youth market. My inspiration (besides Gordy & the vets who contribute to Soulful Detroit) � Gamble & Huff, Florence Greenberg (Scepter/Wand), Herb Alpert & Jerry Moss, Carl Davis, Thom Bell, James Brown, Al Bell, Jim Stewart & Estelle Axton, Ahmet Ertegun, Jerry Wexler, Arif Mardin. These folks among others developed artists and surrounded them with the best material and musicians possible.
I also volunteer my time to public schools to show kids the history of music (past/present/future) because I know all too well about cutbacks (Sport programs �no! Music studies � cut away!)

Now, how many of you besides folks such as Clay, Bobby Eli, Ralph, Weldon and others are going to do something about what is right/wrong with the music industry? And WHAT exactly are you going to do? That�s the next issue!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Common (209.2.55.169) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

Hello everyone,

Kevin: You took the question outta my head. J What can we, the public do to get involved and support the artists who are trying to bring back the "art of music"? Some of us don't know what to do or how to get involved.

Peace!

By TONE DEF (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

Whoever signed that "Lumidee" person to Universal ought to be shot at a firing squad.
It is the most atrocious record ever with a voice that is both sharp and flat at the same time!!

Is this the shape of things to come, I ask you??????

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

Common:
There are things that the consumer can do -
1)If you have a computer and internet capability, surf the net for artists you love and see if they have anything available. Order the music directly from them if possible or go to your nearby record store and order their recordings.

2)Go see these folks perform live if they are touring. I had a chance to see Barry White years ago on his "Icon Is Love" tour and kick myself for not taking up the opportunity.

3)Folks like Clay McMurray are still making music (see prior posts of PREE). Buy his CDs. Note to Ralph Terrana - press up a few hundred Teddie Morrow CDs and sell 'em. I've had folks offer money for my Libra Records sampler (which I refuse to accept for reasons I'll share later)and they haven't heard a single note of music!

4) Support community radio stations that broadcast the music you love hearing. Felix Hernandez helps WBGO-FM raise tons of money because his Rhythm Revue show is probably the hottest program the station has.

This is just for starters, Common. I hope this helps.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Mr. Magic (64.12.97.7) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 05:40 pm:

Even though I am young now, I plan to show people my age and younger the real essence of music. Everything now is being downloaded or people can't just sing, but I want to help produce real artist.

Whenever I start my mission after college, I want everything I use to be real. No voice enhancers, no digital beats, no electronice nothing.

I feel if you go back to what music really sounds like, it sounds a whole lot better when played with the real instrument instead of using a lot of electronics for musical sounds.

There was an articel in the Detroit Free Press yesterday about Ashanti, and they really told the truth about her.. We all now what we hear today in the music industry, and a lot of it is not what we want.

What we need to do is revisit the golden days of music, and show the world that it takes more than just a beat machine to make fine music. It takes hard work, commitment, and a stable mind to produce qulaity music.

By hoz (216.24.70.17) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:04 pm:

Mr. Magic--

You just made my whole day.

hoz

By Dennis Coffey (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:20 pm:

Hello everyone. I think it is about the creation of music and delivering it to the consumer. The record company that understands this basic concept and looks for new ways to reach the consumer is going to win. You do this by eliminating some of the unneccessary things in between. It is also the responsibility of both the record company and the artistic community to educate the consumer and introduce them to new music and creative ideas. It is the responsibility of the record company to treat the artistic community fairly. Rap is not music. It is the spoken word backed by samples or some music. Rap is part of the record business. The consumer also needs to understand that music is not free. The sale of music to the consumer should be an exchange of services for a reasonable fee like most other services. Videos should be live concerts, not an art form that has now become big business and adds to the cost of marketing music. The record business as we know it will have to change or it may not economically survive. Music however, will survive because it is one of the things that makes us human.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:27 pm:

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU'VE SAID REAGRDING THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INDUSTRY TO THE ARTISTS AND THE CONSUMERS...DENNIS!!!...YOU WOULD CERTAINLY KNOW THESE FACTS BETTER THAN MOST!!!...AS FOR THE VIDEO'S...HOWEVER...I AGREE THAT VIDEO'S OF LIVE PERFORMANCES WOULD ENHANCE THE CULTURAL VIABILITY OF THE PRODUCT...BUT ON THE OTHER HAND...TODAY'S CONSUMER'S APPEAR TO ENJOY THESE MUSIC VIDEO'S...AND WHILE I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF MOST OF THEM...I THINK THAT THESE VIDEO'S ARE BASICALLY A HYBRIDIZATION OF THE FILM AND MUSIC INDUSTRY...AND THEREFORE HAVE SOME MERIT...ALTHOUGH I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED UNDER THE GENERAL HEADING OF MUSIC!!!...STUBASS

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 07:10 am:

Hey Stubass. The record business needs to cut costs in order to survive. The videos began as marketing support for CDs with the record companies absorbing the cost. We can only hope they will evolve into an art form that can be shown in the theaters or into full length musicals or TV specials so the movie goers or advertisers can pay all or part of the cost. These videos are not part of the creative musical process and new artists should not be signed for how they will look in a video. The consumers are paying for these videos with higher prices and CDs with filler songs they don't want. Maybe someone should ask them. I would rather see that money spent on developing and signing new artists, lowering prices, and making great music again.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:07 am:

HEY DENNIS!!!...I THINK ANOTHER PART OF THE PROBLEM YOU SPEAK OF IS THE NEED FOR TODAYS YOUTH TO BE CONSTANTLY STIMULATED!!!...THE "MTV GENERATION" COULD NEVER DO WHAT OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS DID...SIT AROUND A RADIO...TRANSFIXED BY JUST AN AUDIO STIMULUS!!!...THESE KIDS ARE USED TO "MULTIMEDIA" PRESENTATIONS...AND IF THEY'RE GETTING THEIR MUSIC APPRECIATION OUT OF A THREE INCH TELEVISION SPEAKER...ACCOMPANIED BY THE VISUAL PROCESS OF A "MUSIC-VIDEO"...THEN...SO BE IT!!!...THEY ARE FAILING TO APPRECIATE THE MUSIC FOR THE MUSIC'S SAKE...AND LISTENING TO THE MUSIC AS A BYPRODUCT OF THE VIDEO!!!...STU

By Dennis Coffey (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 01:22 pm:

Hey Stubass. You are correct. The record business has created a monster and they don't know how to stop the train. And we wonder where the quality of the music went and why record companies sign so few new artists. These same kids also pay good money to see artists perform so they do realize where the music really comes from and are willing to support live talent. I think we will see some significant changes in the music business in the years to come.

By medua9e2003 (66.73.13.225) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 04:35 pm:

OK, here it goes, I might B N trouble AGAIN after this one, but~~~~~~
Music is a BUSINESS now and they have ROBOTS carrying out the orders~~~NO Talent needed~
almost EVERY female N the business look alike, and a LOT of the men (Bald) 4 no reason, tatooed up, sagging pants,,oooh nooo, I know I'm gonna get it 4 this but..I have no plans of leaving this time, so B it~~~~~~~~~~~~~~bring it on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~LOL!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 04:52 pm:

Kind of hard to get on your case Medusa when you're telling it like it is.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 05:22 pm:

Medusa:
How would you like to work across the street from a music "factory" where folks fit your description to a "T" (except for our dear Harry Weinger - he's the only "long-hair" in the building!).

That's why I keep my "afro" and my goatee as well as wear shirts,jeans and a occasional blazer - I don't need to - nor want to - "fit in" with the rest of the bald-headed "pin-dots".

By the way, on another note - according to the Album Network, the new Earth Wind & Fire tune "All In The Way" (from their recent CD "The Promise")is the most popular tune on what the industry calls "Urban Adult Contemporary" radio(I call it "R&B Radio For Grown-Ups"). Jeffrey Osbourne's new single is in second place. Both CDs were released independently (Maurice White's Kalimba Records & Osborne's Jay Ozz label).

I guess there's hope on the horizon.......

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 06:42 pm:

Hello all,

I am reading this thread and there is one thing missing in what to be done in the current music situation:

Where is the support for the younger generation that wants to record and do R&B?

I have tried my best to get people in the R&B world motivated to show the younger generation how it is done and I get more "no shows" than the young people that want to learn how to do R&B.

There was a Community Music Day that was held on 5th and Olney earlier this summer and it was amazing to see the young generation playing "Watermelon Man" and all of these other jazz standards. Now, granted they werent hittin all of the notes, but at least they were trying!!

Not every kid watches rap videos and wants to shake their ass. It would be nice if the people here and everywhere in the world would stop patting themselves on the back and TEACH the next two generations how to play an instrument. Drums, Piano, Bass, Guitar whatever.

The music business has ALWAYS been a backbiting , greedy, moneymaking machine. That wont change. But what is not changing is the attitude that kids dont want to learn how to play an instrument. That is where it starts.

If you dont believe me, go into a music store and see how many kids are in there looking at instruments and not having the money to buy it.

No disrespect to anyone out there, but you guys and girls have a responsibility to put your talents on the line too. If you dont all of what you did will be lost.

I have artists that have shown up at my home with the desire to learn engineering and I will show them anything that I can. No charge. I know that this may spur them to get into it.

This is all I will say on the matter.

Daren Metz
Sony Music

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 06:54 pm:

Daren:
Thank you for your post.

There are "mentors" out there that may (and will) teach you what they know - as a way of passing down to the next generation their knowledge and wisdom.

Then there are those who give lip service and don't deliver unless there is a dollar sign attached.

Then there are those who want to reach out to the next generation & don't know how or fear they may be rebuffed.

I'd be more than happy to offer my services to you & your students, Daren. No charge. Just tell me the time & place and we'll make it happen.

This is a good place to start, Daren. There are plenty of veterans out here from Ralph Terrana to Clay McMurray, Bobby Eli (who, along with his dear Ms. Vonnie, took me out to dinner last night and talked music)& Dennis Coffey, Weldon MacDougal to Allen McGrier & Mike McLean who would probably love to give you a hand in any way shape or form.

This is why I volunteer my time to high school music students - so that I can pass on what I know (and what I'm still learning!) to the next generation.

Don't give up, Daren. Feel free to email me directly so we can come up with a plan (kevingoins@juno.com)

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.118.232) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 07:01 pm:

Absolutely Mr. Drums, I will be more than glad to.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

Mr. Magic:
I have not forgotten the Jackie Wilson CD I owe you. It's on the way.

Please do not wait until after college to "get busy" with your dream - START NOW! I didn't wait until I earned my degree before I started producing music - I got right to it during my junior & senior years. Granted, the machinery my college had left a lot to be desired but I accomplished my goal and produced a "pop ballad" by a college band that actually got radio play in Central New York.

I understand the stress of studies and academics but you should at least intern at a recording studio - hell, United Sound in Detroit will be reopening under new management so that would be a damn good place to start. Also, folks such as Clay McMurray & Dennis Coffey are still producing new music - and they are right in Detroit! Hook up with one or both of them - let 'em teach you the ropes.

The opportunity is now, my friend. Grab that brass ring and pull!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 07:14 pm:

Thank you Mr Kev!!

I am stuck between two worlds - I am in my 30's and grew up on Motown ( a lot of people dont know this but I used to go to Hitsville every summer with my uncle and spend hours in the "Snakepit"! I was only 14 and did not understand what it was but I could "feel" the music!! I remember looking behind the drum baffle and imagine what it would have been like to watch music being recorded in that space!!! I think that spurred me on to play drums the way that I did!!!

If it wasnt for my uncle telling me what "Hitsville" even was, I would not be in music the way I am today. I love playing drums and Bobby Eli will tell you about how passionate that I am about the history of drums and music.

The problem that exists is that the generation before me wont show me what they did or how they did it. It is like some great mystery!! On this very forum, I asked Jim Vitti who I have looked up to since I have been a teen to let me fly to Ohio to sit in and watch his technique! And do you know what I got as a response - NOTHING!!!

I give up. Not on all, but I would welcome any help that would bring back the music that I enjoyed as a child and before the current crop of so called music invaded our minds.

If the people on this board really want to make a change, lets do it now. Put the cards on the table. Here is my email and phone number darenmetz@netscape.net (610)279-1805. Let us have a forum for both generations and bridge the gap. I will fly anywhere at anytime to get it going. Who is with me.

Daren Metz
Sony Music

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 07:54 pm:

Daren and all,
I'm not sure if it's a question of having somebody show the younger generation how to do things. I think it's something that they need to find within themselves by digging deep and studying what has already been done. I'm sure I speak for most of the seasoned musicians and producers here that that is how we did it. I listened to Jimmy Reed and early Ray Charles. Definitely Little Richard.
And by listening to these great artists we took our first tentative steps into the world of music by trying to emulate them. Oh, it wasn't real pretty at first, but if the desire remains strong things will get figured out and improvements will be made. The possibility of running across someone who is happy to share their knowledge and experience always exists and these people will come into the lives of these young musicians as they make their way. However, ultimately they must show individual initiative and get out there and learn what it's all about.

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:02 pm:

Hi Ralph,

I agree with you. I am only talking about what the young generation sees as "their" Jimmy Reed or Ray Charles. I dont think that they have too many musical influences to look up to. I only found this site by accident when doing a college term paper on the History of Motown.

I only want real music on the radio again. I miss the days of going to a real live concert where music is actually played by instruments and not by a turntable. It is changing and their are kids out there that want to learn how to play an instrument but dont have the resources to learn.

I hate to see what the "oldies" station will be playing in 2029....

Daren

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:05 pm:

PS. The video shoot was great!!

And the Norah Jones CD is giving me hope that people are starting to get the point of the value of real music!

Daren

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:07 pm:

Ralph:
You're right as rain about self-initiative and emulation being the first chapter in developing one's own style and way of doing things. I've been down that road as a radio broadcaster and now a music executive.

At the same time, there are folks like Daren and Mr. Magic who would love to learn how "the masters" did it - even if it's through anecdotes and storytelling. When Berry Gordy wrote "To Be Loved" I don't know whether he realized it but he basically explained how Motown was built, from the theatre draperies Raynoma purchased for the recording studio to the Ampex reel to reel machine that was used. That created a blueprint in my mind as to how "The Man" did it when he started.

Even your Tera Shirma thread showed me how to build a recording studio that will achieve the maximum sound possible.

I find that with the folks I've met here and in the industry (including the Funks' Joe Hunter & Jack Ashford), there is knowledge they are willing to part with. Like you said, it's up to the recipient to act on it.

And if Daren wants or needs one of "us" to help him out, I'd be glad to throw my hat into the ring.

Kevin Goins - KevGo
(PS - Do you have a website for Powerhouse Studios? I would love to check out your facility!)

By Musicchef (68.104.25.189) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:10 pm:

Just when I thought that this site couldn't get any better, I see this kind of feedback on a topic that has been in the back of my mind for the last 20 years. I just wished that I could add more than a few vintage images and the occasional line of text.

Da Chef

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:11 pm:

Hi Darin,
That is my point. If the younger generation is truly interested they can still go to Jimmy Reed, Ray Charles and Little Richard. Plus a zillion other great artists out there representing all styles of music. From what I understand, much of the younger generation is plugged into the Oldies radio stations anyway. There is a multitude of teachers just waiting to be used. In a sense they are better off than I was when I was just getting started. Rock and Roll was new and R&B was " Race Music " so my options were, comparitively speaking, somewhat limited.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:16 pm:

Chef,
You're doing just fine here pal. You are a welcome addition to the family and we are glad you made the scene.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:26 pm:

Kevin,
There is no web-site for Powerhouse Productions. At least not my Powerhouse. The studio is not like Tera Shirma. It exists in a converted one car garage. I think the term Recording Suite is more appropriate. It is 24 track Adat. The board is a Mackie 32-8. Naturally there are the related "toys " to accompany this. The studio is comfortable to work in and has an array of colored lights to set the mood. I have a habit of taking pictures during sessions and the walls are " wallpapered " with these pictures. On one wall is a clock that has the Motown label as it's face. It was given to me by the owner of a local tobacco shop.

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:27 pm:

Hi again Mr. Ralph!

I agree with you too. I hear Beyonce's "Crazy inLove song, and all I hear are the ChiLites!! But you ask the younger generation and they all say "Man that Beyonce is a great artist!! " LOL

Anyway, I do have the feeling that music will make its come back. Because the current generation (except for a few)is really lost....


Daren

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

I also have built a "recording suite" at home. I went with the Pro Control 24 and Pro Tools (I know, I know!! Pro Tools, bleah )

But I am used to working with it and I NEVER do the drastic editing thing!!! I do use SampleTank, Pro 52, Stylus, Trilogy and a bunch of other virtual keyboards off of a Mac. But they sound good!

Daren

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:37 pm:

Daren,
That's great. The important thing is how to use these tools and it seems you have a good handle on that issue. Keep working.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:47 pm:

Daren:
All I hear in Beyonce's hit is the Chi-lites' "Are You My Woman (Tell Me So)" myself.

God bless Eugene Record!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Ralph:
Sounds like a great set up you have (colored lights, eh? Sounds like Tera Shirma to me ..).

Would love to check it out when I come to Cali!

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By drums (216.178.85.78) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Hey Mr. Kev!!

Ill be up in NYC in August. I hope that you can fit me in your busy schedule when I figure which day is good for me!!!

Email me your number and I will call you up!!

Daren

PS. To all out in Soulful Detroit land my rant is not personal towards anyone, I just miss real live music being played and I am sick of being bombarded by what is being called music today. I am listening to Everything except what is played on BET these days.

Daren

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 08:53 pm:

You got it, Daren!
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (151.197.118.232) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 09:30 pm:

Daren,

IF YOU WANT TO SCREAM AND PULL YOUR HAIR OUT, CHECK OUT NEVER LEAVE(THE UH OOH SONG)
BY LUMIDEE.
IT IS DESTINED TO BE THE HIT OF THE SUMMER.....
FOR THE TONALLY CHALLENGED.
UNIVERSAL DESERVRES THE TIN EAR AWARD OF THE CENTURY FOR SINING THIS GEM.

By drums (68.80.23.97) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 09:57 pm:

Hi Bobby!!!

They play that damned song every 15 minutes!! It is definitely a hair puller!!! And they use the same drumbeat on the Sean Paul Record!! Damn!! Even the drumbeats are recycled!!

Daren

By Eli (151.197.118.232) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 10:01 pm:

Beyonce has that Diwali Riddem on one of her new gems as well!!!!@#$%^&*()_+

By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 12:04 am:

I received a call from a guy wanting to sample-record real instruments for his online GigaStudio library.

He wanted to book the best scoring stage and a good recording engineer.

Now we all know that its all business but nonetheless I felt real funny about giving him information about where to go in LA to get this done.

But it seems that even a top singing group like Take 6 have their own sounds captured on the Kurzweil platform....Their oohs and ahhs and trombone sounds etc... I actually played these voices at a NAMM show a few years ago and it was really done well!

So now we have all these power tools now but I am hard pressed to hear real music come from all this killer technology!
And no keyboard will play what Take 6 can sing.

to be continued... : - )

By M.McLeanTech (66.159.217.223) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 12:49 am:

I started this thread with a drunken, but sincere and intelligent question.

Now I am forgotten.

Even Ralph did not respond to my post about when United Artists was formed.

I think I am going to go play "Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right" sung by Barrett Strong.

I still am waiting to go to lunch with StuBass.

Mike McLean

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 11:09 am:

OK MIKE!!!...I WILL CLEAR MY SCHEDULE FOR NEXT FRIDAY (BEFORE GOLF)...SO PERHAPS WE CAN MEET UP AT AROUND NOON!!!...GIVE ME SOME DETAILS!!!...IS IT STILL DR HOGGLY WOGGLY'S???...YOU BUY LUNCH...I'LL LEAVE THE TIP!!!...WE WILL CORRECT THE CURRENT STATE OF THE RECORDING BUSINESS AT THAT TIME!!!...FAIR ENOUGH???...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 11:16 am:

Mike,
I apologize for not responding to your UA post. To moderate this forum I must do quite a bit of reading and there are times my time is short. I meant no disrespect. In all honesty I was surprised UA was formed that early. For some reason I always thought it was a late 30's venture. Thanks for enlightening me. Are we still buddies?

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 12:51 pm:

During the heyday of the music that we all love and cherish,no pyrotechnics, booty shaking hoochie mamas, hype men, or props of any kind were needed to fortify an act's prescence.
The only "prop" was the Tempts' multi-mike stand.
Acts exuded class, individuality and professionalism in their performance along with songs that stood the test of time with memorable MELODIES and lyrics which reached deep in to the depths of your soul.

Sadly, none of the above exist anymore.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.122) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 07:40 pm:

Daren has touched on an important point.

I think we need to rebuild our entire musical infrastructure. A band-aid on one part of the industry will not be enough, it has to be addressed globally. This includes live venues, record stores, journalism and the means of exposure including DJs. And before anybody gets depressed by this thought, remember that today's pop music industry was built FROM THE GROUND UP by a bunch of independent labels during the early 1950s.

The worst bottomfeeding of all has been at the entry level. "Back in the day," young artists had places they could perform and get paid enough to continue performing. Today a music career, with the exception of RAP, has become a rich person's avocation. Great artists have always been the best of the best. Our problem is that today's talent pool only produces the best of the rich. You can't have a stellar major league without a thriving minor league of performers. We must find a way to restore the minor league of music. In the process, we can expose a new generation to musical joy rather than just the "shock and awe" musical fast food that they are being served.

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 08:19 pm:

Well said Bob!!

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.122) on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

It's this bug of loving music that Mike McLean infected me with years ago!

Great music shouldn't NEED a million bucks worth of marketing and videos. The music business is not the movie business. People escape into movies while they bring music into their lives. This is fundamental yet it seems to be overlooked.

And Darin, I'll give you a call!

By Fred (64.12.97.7) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 01:53 am:

Bob,

I am going to disagree with you on one point of your otherwise dead-on assessment of the current music environment.

There is a thriving music "minor league" out there. I was at SXSW in March, and there were over 400 bands in town looking for exposure. Less than a quarter of them were signed to any label, and once you excluded Willie Nelson, Lucinda Williams and Joe Jackson, those who had record deals were with either small indies or self-produced.

There wasn't a whole lot of what you would call soul (although there was a 21st Century garage-band version of the MGs called "The Diplomats of Solid Sound" who could really hit and hold a groove), but the town was filled to near overflowing with solid professionals looking to move up.

The greatest thing about all the music I heard that week was I really couldn't classify most of it, because it didn't sound like any reference point I had. There were influences all over the place, from Joni Mitchell to Led Zep to Rocky Burnette, but everything got mixed together and a lot of it sounded fresh and new and exciting. It was an extraordinarily energizing week for me.

The second greatest thing was that all these were working bands. I think a lot of the players still had day jobs, for sure, but they were all pros. You know the future is in good hands when you hear the 9-year old drummer from the Trachtenberg Family Slideshow Players (a wonderfully bizzare act that actually knows what melodies are, even if their lyrics are purely weird. They do get extra credit for rhyming "Garfunkle" with "drunk uncle," but that gives you some idea of the strange field they are plowing) ask for more vocals on her monitor, and mean it.

What has changed is that one barrier to the "major leagues" has been almost completely destroyed, while another one has been raised much higher. Anybody can record a CD now. That's no longer in the hands of the favored few with access to an established studio. 95% of the results should never be heard outside the immediate family of the performers, but that 5% that's left still represents thousands of CDs every year that could reach a greater audience.

They don't because of the second barrier; the consolidation of radio. There are no regional hits any more. No localized play lists, no interest in promoting local talent. Maybe Internet radio can start to fill the void, but I think that is years away from widespread impact, and somehow someone has to develop the marketing and promotional tools to go with it. It's tough to break an act when there is no "where" to break it.

The music business at the major label these days survives on finding the "next big thing" because nothing else makes money. In time, that "big" thing will show up, but, just like rap, grunge, metal and punk, it won't come from the top down, and it probably won't be playing close enough to the bar for the current crop of A&R guys to hear.

The music is out there, and probably no more than 10 miles from your door.

By drums (155.91.6.71) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 08:15 am:

Good Morning All!!


Thanks for the kind words Bob!! I agree with all that the current musical landscape needs some type of injection of musical ideas and ALL of us needs to put our heads together to bring back the music that we would like to hear. I wish that I had the resources to hire

The Funk Brothers
The Sound of Philadelphia (TSOP)
The Muscle Shoals Band

To create something that has never been heard before!! (It might sound like a train wreck but ya never know!! )

I would also like to put together a forum that would bridge the gap between the generations so we could learn from each other and keep the "traditions" as well as "Keep it Real!" (Bad English, I know!)

But as long as both sides keep their backs turned, we wont get anywhere.

Thanks for the call again Bob Ohlssen!!! You really made my whole year!!! You are OUTSTANDING!!

Daren Metz
Sony Music

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 10:35 am:

Fred,
You make many valid points and I agree with much of what you are saying. however, and unless I'm reading Bob wrong, the " minor league " issue exists on a much more fundamental level. There simply isn't any, or too few at least, clubs for bands and performers to hone their skills. When I was playing clubs in the 60's along with Dennis Coffey and Babbitt, we played six nights a week. After a while that adds up to a lot of " chops ". Today bands have to pay for the privelage of playing just one set in the L.A. clubs. A local singer in town brought her band to L.A. recently and had to pay $250.00 just to do an eight song set. It's one thing to practice, practice, practice in some garage, but if you can't perform in front of a real audience on some consistent basis it's pretty tough to get seasoned.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 11:03 am:

Good Morning, Gang...
I hear what Fred is saying about South By Southwest...it's a great place for an act to get exposure.

At the same time, I'm with Ralph & Bob about the "minor league" system. Here in NYC there are several clubs but it's hard for a new band to crack into the club system unless they have a track record elsewhere or a portfolio/press kit that has been approved by the club mananger. I understand why this is done - the club wants to draw the biggest audience possible to pay the bills - which is why the clubs book the same bands every month. There is a need for clubs to at least have a couple nights a month devoted to new and upcoming talent (Le Bar Bat here in NYC has a "new band" night once a month).

Also, with the consolidation of commercial radio eliminating the "local playlist" system, that's why I'm a big supporter of community radio. There's a much larger chance an up & coming act can develop a listener base through this system. For example, years ago a dear friend of mine who worked at WBAI-FM here in NYC interviewed singer Martha Wash for his radio show. Granted, it was an overnight program (the interview segment was pre-taped)but his show drew a faithful audience weekly. The result - Martha received exposure for her single and local retail reported a spike in sales that week.

What needs to be done is finding other creative ways to expose real talent besides the system the majors have in place. I believe that a new crop of independent labels combined with community radio and other sources (internet, satellite)can be successful within the next few years.

Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.85.19) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

Ralph,

That's exactly what I mean. Almost nobody today realizes how MUCH great live music was available in the US during '50s and '60s. I've come to realize that this difference is a fundamental problem. I probably hear more "as good as" young talent than ever before but I hear almost nothing at the "Oh My God!" no-brainer level that can create a market rather than needing to hitch a ride on an existing one. The number of yesterday's icons who I know perfectly well could never have AFFORDED to have a music career today scares me.

Kevin,

I probably made Martha Wash's first recording when she sang with Donnell Hickman in San Francisco in the early '70s! As I've said elsewhere, the answers CAN NOT have any connection with Wall Street. We must get local and build.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

Bob:
I received your email this morning. I will get in touch with you before I leave for my business trip next week.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Brandi1978 (205.188.209.109) on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

It's too many idiots in the music business,no originality or creativity. too much sampling of REAL MUSIC. the business is a mess right now..I truly hope that we as consumers of music that are sick and tired of the bull..shut them down.
They let too many non talented people get credit for computer work and airbrush. they can't sing and the airbrush images giving people negative images on what they percieve that people should look like. they are all fake so them telling anybody to look like that is a joke.

By History Buff (63.88.160.101) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 09:48 am:

Nothing is wrong with the music business today,All the same comments that you have stated have been said 30 years ago, and 30 years before that. Music is going to hell with this rock and roll, give a big band any time, think back to what your parents said when you were growing up. How can you listen to that crap Said mom and dad, thats not music" Your tastes in music are old school R&B and thats fine, but all things change and new R&B, rap, hip hop is the new school.Things change and if you don:t change with them your left behind. What were headline acts now play small bars and open shopping centers.Things change nothing stays the same

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:15 am:

History Buff:
Granted, what you may be hearing is what parents have said in prior generations about pop music, however you miss a few vital points.

The acts of "way back when" were willing to expand their palate and incoporate outside genres of music. From the Beatles to Mandrill, Supremes to En Vogue, Marvin Gaye to Jaheim - these acts stretched their musical talents beyond expectation. The "new R&B", other than Jaheim and R. Kelly, hasn't done that because most of the productions are hung up on technology and how many notes one can sing in a run yet devoid of passion and feeling.

Also, if you read other threads here in the Forum, you will see where I made comments about rap & hip-hop (which, my friend, are as old school as they are new) - that I listened to both until it became too much about violence and material things. I still marvel at the creative storytelling of a Spoonie Gee and the rhymes of Grandmaster Caz yet the only rap I would listen to today is by Common, Mos Def and maybe the Wu-Tang Clan.

Finally, your line about headline acts now playing small bars and open shopping centers is pretty insulting. Earth Wind & Fire played the Beacon Theatre here in NYC to a standing-room only crowd and Anita Baker did two sold-out shows at Westbury Music Fair in Long Island, NY. These aren't small bars or shopping centers that's for sure.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.106.8) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:19 am:

History buffs saying the same things I heard when I first started playing rock in the late 50s and even through the 60s from older musicians that couldn't stand rock and roll,blues or rhythim and blues.

I might change history buffs last sentence to:
Things may change but people as they age tend to stay the same and get very opinionated about what they like.

Whether we like the music that's played now days or not has nothing to do with what my grand-kids like to hear.They're going to listen to what they want no matter if we tell them it's shit or not. The only thing you can do is crank up the volume on your favorite jam and drown out the thump-thump of the car next to you.

I wonder if Paul Whitemans band caught hell from the classical musicians of his day.LOL

P.S. They do get an education on the Spanials,Jimmy Reed,Nolan Strong,Cannonball Adderly,ECT. when they drive anywhere in my car. That's when I have a captive audience.
Lynn

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:24 am:

Lynn:
You & my Dad must've traded notes! When I was a kid, my father would allow us to play our tapes on the car stereo but we had to listen to what he had as well.

That's how I learned about Jimmy Smith, Houston Person, Wes Montgomery, Cannonball Adderly, Sam Cooke & the Soul Stirrers....

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (205.185.125.9) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

I agree with History Buff. These same arguments have been going on since I've started listening to music and long before I was born.

The Beacon Theater is a far cry and a big step down from the arenas and colliseums that Earth, Wind & Fire headlined at in the seventies. About a year ago EWF played at the Convocation Center in Cleveland (the home of the Cleveland State Basketball Team), which is a smaller than Gund Arena (where the Cleveland Cavaliers play) and still didn't sell the place out...and the Isley Brothers and the hometown favorites O'Jays were on the show too.

As for the artists expanding their horizons more, the Temptations didn't want to record the the Mellow Mood album the idea was forced on them by Motown who were seeking a wider audience. The producers and shot callers at Motown were generally around 10 years older than most of the artists and had different perspectives.

No company is trying to get 50 Cents or Snoop Dogg into Copa like clubs and Las Vegas show places because they're playing bigger venues and making more money than they would if they were playing supper clubs; this wasn't the case in the sixties when supper club work was considered more lucrative as well as safer in regards to getting paid. Easy listening was the most popular radio format in the sixties and people were trying to cut into the market with their soul acts by making them more appealing to that market.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.83.207) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 12:37 pm:

I bought into the idea that I had been suffering "old fartdom" for around ten years until I had a few experiences outside of the usual genres of music I had been hanging out with.

There are fundamental relationships between the organization of sounds and how the body responds to them that have been observed for thousands of years. This isn't about style, it's about physics and biology. A LOT of current pop music does not employ the most basic principles of harmony and rhythm that make music appealing.

Many folks seem to have become seriously lost in their intellect about music production, "hipness," and originality today.

By history buff (63.88.160.101) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

As you get older it:s hard to see your self in the total picture,you tune in a P.B.S oldies show , you close your eyes and remember what great music you grew up with, then you look at the act and they all look so old,My god I:am old too.Lets face the facts old school will always have fans but the group is getting smaller and smaller througt death. Look at the groups 2 or 3 new members and one orginal, the orginal looks like their grandfather.Seeing the age of the performer bring you back to reality and your mortality,but close your eyes and now your young .
All people listen to what they like ,but when you are talking maybee I can Find "MY MUSIC" on satilite radio because no one plays in any more on standerd radio.All things cahnge nothing stays the same.Look at the Great Sanatna, changed his style, combined with new singers and is riding on top of the charts. AS to Kevgo ,the truth about filling clubs not great halls hurts but its true, they had their run 30 or 40 years ago.it:s time to bow out with grace, do not beat a dead horse

By lynnbruce (68.41.106.8) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 03:20 pm:

KevGo,my father was a big band fan and hit all the venues around Detroit to hear and dance to them in the thirties and forties.I wouldn't have been caught dead listening to them when I was a teen-ager in the late fifties.
Once I hit about thirty, all of a sudden I started buying a lot of the old big band albums.
The same with Spike Jones,once I got older I realized how much talent it took to play some of his arrangements.

Once the kids of today get older they may listen to the songs they liked in school just for nostalgia,but they'll migrate to better music like we all do.

Bob Olhsson: I agree about the organization of certain sounds: Amazing Grace, La Bamba, Guantaramera, it seems people are magicaly drawn to songs like these.There's something that hits us in the heart when we hear certain chords. Maybe we need to start a metaphysical music thread.LOL

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

History Buff:
As long as there are young folks who are exposed to older music - and this happens everyday - the "old school" will not have a need to bow out period. And please don't try to argue otherwise - I've sold enough classic soul, jazz, blues & rock to folks younger than me during my record retail years here in NYC to know this as fact.

Also, unlike Santana, many of these groups that still sell records - from Earth Wind & Fire to our beloved Supremes - do not have to adjust their acts and are attracting a younger audience. Granted, in smaller venues, but they are attracting these audiences in large amounts. How do I know? - I was outside the Beacon Theatre the night EW&F were playing and there was a huge throng of folks - young & old - waiting to meet the group backstage, blocking the street next to the venue.

The truth about these old schoolers still making music must really bug you, History Buff. I think it's great that they are out there doing their thing. Would you dismiss the "old school" if Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Barry White or Skip Scarborough were still alive and doing shows? Think about it....

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 04:12 pm:

RD:
The Tempts may not have liked cutting "In A Mellow Mood" nor did they dig playing the Copacabana. But, on a up note, they wouldn't be commanding the amount of money and playing quality venues today if they didn't make that move 35 years ago to record standards. And there certainly would not have been a movie about their lives and career if it weren't for this "mainstream move".

Will 50 Cent & Snoop Dogg be able to play larger venues and command big bucks 20-30 years from now. Even Snoop Dogg realizes that the rap music game doesn't last forever which is why he expanded his scope into television, movies, clothing and endorsements. Jay-Z and Damon Dash knew this from the git-go which is why Roc-A-Fella is both a label and a brand of clothing.

No matter how you cut it, it's all about broadening the horizons.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 04:46 pm:

When I was in L.A. in April to see the Funks, the Wiltern Theatre was packed to the rafters. What impressed me the most about this was the predominantly young audience.

By RD (65.150.229.173) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 04:48 pm:

Kevgo, I disagree with you on your assertions in the first paragraph in its entirety. The easy listening push was a waste of time. Very few of their songs were played on easy listening or MOR stations in the sixties. Berry wanted this airplay because those songs made more performance money but it never happened. When the seventies came they abandoned the nonsense altogether.

No, 50 Cents, Snoop or any body else that is popular today won't be playing large venues 20 to 30 years from now. That was History Buff's point--things change. If some are still performing they'll be playing much smaller venues. I doubt, however, if many will still be hanging on because they won't have to in order to live. They make far more money now.

Most acts of 20 to 30 years ago don't have contracts with majors. The Temptations are the exception and I suspect Universal keep repackaging their material to keep them in the red so as to not pay them any royalties. It's an old trick, Kevgo. Put something else out and pad the expense account with inflated and phoney expenditures.

Companies aren't spending any money on these older acts. This was brought to light when I tried to buy the Temptations "new" Pyschedellic Soul CD. The entire Best Buy chain of Northeast Ohio, encompassing about 7 stores, has ordered less than 15 copies. Circuit City had never heard of it, neither had Coconuts, it wasn't on either of these chains radar screens. The CD is still not in Cleveland.

There was a good article about a fledging independent record company in Cleveland in Sundays' Cleveland Plain Dealer. I would post it but they didn't put the whole story online, just the sidebars. There were some interesting quotes from Lynn Tolliver and the guys that recorded Wild Cherry. The independent record company has two chances: zero and none.

They can't get played on the radio even if they pay because they're not paying enough. The owner in question wanted to get a record on one of Radio One's 50,000 watt stations here, either WENZ or WZAK; and was willing to go through the independent promotion process. Never got a call back. Why? He only wanted to spend $5,000 to get the song included on one of the stations. There were other companies willing to spend $25,000 to have their song played on more stations owned by Radio One and others serviced by the independent promotion company. The big money won out like it does every time.

Unless you catch them (independent promoters) in a slow period, the going rate now is $25,000 to get a song included on the playlists of about five to eight major market stations.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

RD:
The Temptations "In A Mellow Mood" charted #1 R&B and #13 Pop on Billboard's respective album charts. Being that there were two Jobete compositions on the entire album, I doubt that Gordy had performance money on his mind when he released this album. What he was trying to do was aim the Tempts at a broader audience. Looking at the chart positions, Gordy & the Tempts achieved this goal.

I have no problem with what you or History Buff has said regarding the cycles of the music biz. What I don't agree with is the attitude of dismissing these classic genres like they were yesterday's news. The same mistake was made with the blues and almost with jazz. Now look what has happened - a renaissance has occurred with both genres where a larger audience appreciates the music and those who dismissed it are not invited to the party.

Also I disagree vehemently with your assertion that folks such as Universal/Motown reissue these collections to keep their artists in the red. If anything, they reissue the music so that they could put money in their pockets and try to satisfy an audience that has been demanding this music. I'm sure Universal/Motown's Harry Weinger - who visits this Forum quite often and works closely with the Motown acts on reissuing their music - would not only take issue but show you what he has to go through to please the artist, UMG and the audience. As a compilation producer myself, the labels I've worked for have made sure royalties have been paid for reissues and costs are absorbed by the companies.

As for retailers not having the Psychedelic Soul CD, stores such as Coconuts, Best Buy and Circuit City are not catalog-intensive stores like Tower, Virgin, HMV and Coconut's sister store FYE. If you walked into a Tower Records (like I have), you would see at least five copies of Psychedelic Soul. The stores you have mentioned carry the latest hits and budget line CDs yet very few "catalog" items.

Finally, regarding the indie label in Cleveland - as I mentioned in another thread indies have to be more creative in getting their music to the public without dealing with the monoliths of the Clear Channels or the politically-challenged Radio One. There's passing out samplers outside record stores (or inside record stores), community and college radio, flyers, gigging and the internet. These forces, if used en masse, can create the buzz an indie label needs to promote their music. Not too long ago, Master P was selling No Limit's records from the trunk of his car as well as his own record store. Where is he now? Universal Music Group.

The days of "padding expenses" and keeping artists in the red may not have completely disappeared but the labels know that it's a practice they know better than to execute without backing up the reasoning.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By SB (206.214.2.243) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 05:35 pm:

I might not know as much as some of you as it pertains to this topic - but I've decided, that some of the music that is out here today (and was out the last 15 years or so) has nowhere to go but down. Think about it. Just like music changes - so will an educated audience.

Someone posted that there is no older set audience out there - so the older singers and musicians might need to move on out of the way. I beg to differ w/this - because just like there are some baby boomers on this board, and out there all over the world, that would pay to see groups that were making music back in their era and day - there are singers and musicians living that are willing to put on the oldie type shows. Someone has to be showing up for these types of shows - or they wouldn't be. We shouldn�t presume that we need to tell these older artists to sit down anywhere, because there certainly is an audience out there that would pay to see them.

We must also take in consideration, that in some cultures "The Elders� will always have something to say and share. One can learn from their elders and the ones that have been around the block a few times. That holds true in the music industry - just like in other walks of life.

Maybe it will take someone(s) w/a particular vision to realize that there still is an audience out there that would pay to see acts/artists of old, and that would frequent clubs - bars and lounges that play the oldies but goodies. I know here in the DC area - they have a club or two where they cater to an older audience. All it will ultimately take will be the vision and the funds. Folks like Tom Joyner - Steve Harvey and the like might be open to the idea of creating a network of patrons and artists that would see this type of enterprise as lucrative and if not that - then most certainly satisfying.

For some "Powers That Be", in the music industry, their problem is that they care too much about quantity and not quality. They care too much about the "'Ole Mighty Dollar", instead of "The Riches" that = 'ole fashion "Joy."

Lastly - I don't care which artists are raking up the big bucks now. The bottom line question still is and will always be - "Is Their Music - Timeless", in nature? And the answer is "NO!" Now if that shouldn't wake some folks up to what good and great music is for real, within the music industry/business on the whole - then nothing ever will.

The word, "Timeless", is why most of us are here. The name "SOULFUL DETROIT", by itself - signifies "Timeless." We wouldn't be HERE - if the music we speak on - admire and cover was not - "Timeless."

Thank God for all the wonderful artists and music that most of us have heard - learned and loved. There will never be days like all of our spendid yesterdays, as it pertains to music - but the music from those days will always stay brand new - fresh and - "Timeless." And that is indeed a blessing and a gift from God.

"Amen."

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 05:38 pm:

SB:
To paraphrase Marvin Gaye and H-D-H, you've got yourself a witness.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.150.228.122) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 06:00 pm:

Kevgo:

1. Berry was trying to reach a broad audience alright, the lucrative--at the time--MOR radio market. He was looking for a ripple effect in regards to airplay. You get in the habit of playing the Temptations or the Supremes and you'll play their other stuff too.

2. Blues and jazz has never been big selling genres. Columbia Records virtually subsidized Miles Davis because they thought he was artistic and creative. Classic genres are yesterday news; that may hurt; but that's what they are.

3. You can disagree vehemently with my assertion that Universal/Motown and other companies reissue stuff as a means to keep artists royalties accounts in the red all you like but it's a fact. Ask some of the artists and see if they're getting paid, don't take my word for it.

3A. Since Harry Weinger has nothing to do with aritsts' accounts or the paying of royalties it was kind of lame of you to drag him into this. He's doing his designated job, which isn't seeing if artists' get paid.

4. I guess all Cleveland record shops are catalog intensive because you can't find the CD in the city and until I inquired about it, nobody knew it existed.

5. As for your Master P take. Master P would still be selling CDs from the trunk of his car if he was recording '60s and '70s music.

6. If you think the days of padding expenses are over I got some ocean front property I'll sell you real cheap in the downtown Cleveland area. To fight padded expenses and unpaid royalties takes big money and few artists can afford the expense.

You fail to realize that artists particularly from the '50s, '60s and '70s were people without much means. You had to be in bad shape to sign one of those ridiculus contracts in the first place. Nobody in their right mind with any education would have unless they were adapt at pimping the label like Miles Davis was. I know some great voices that went unheard by the masses because they wouldn't sign any of those bullshit contracts. They knew which way was up.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.106.8) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 06:23 pm:

Rd,your last paragragh speaks volumes.Thats why we signed those rip-off contracts,we wanted to record and at that time we had very little choice. Those were the early years of rock and soul and unless your father ran the company you were going to get ripped off.

We weren't in bad shape,just young and innocent and wanted to play music for a living.

If we wouln't have signed them we would have been like those very great voices that you said no one ever heard of.

By RD (65.150.229.94) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 06:45 pm:

Lynn, I understand that it was the only game in town (or in the country) but that didn't keep many people from refusing to sign obviously bad contracts.

You might not have been in bad shape but history and biographies tell us that many were. Like the lottery it was their ticket to suburban life.

Many who signed were young and singing in a group was just a lark for them anyway. When no monies resulted from their few releases, even hits, most got out of the business.

Maybe if more had balked and brought attention to these New York Standard Contracts the deal would have improved. Who knows? All I know is that I've refused to sign many contracts for various things that were ridiculously in the other person's favor and don't feel I've missed out by doing so.

If I was a singer there is no way I could sign a contract that stated I'll get 1.7 cent per record and from that all the expenses in making the record comes out of that 1.7 before I start earning any royalties. And on top of that be tied to the company for seven years among other inane clauses. Not in this lifetime. The only way I would go for this if I I got a big upfront advance that I could do with as I pleased.

And to add insult to injury, most companies didn't even honor these horribly bad contracts.

Check this link out, the classic ripoff:
http://www.jagshouse.com/music/billnelson.html

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 06:53 pm:

RD:
First of all, you have misread a few points I made.

I never said blues and jazz were big money-making genres. I said these genres were damn near abandoned by the audience that invested in these genres for years yet was later accepted by a wider mainstream audience here and overseas.

Second of all, I've worked for two reissue labels and have been a colleague of Universal Music's reissue staff (as well as Sony Music & those who have reissued music for EMI & BMG). These labels have since redrafted contracts to make sure artists get paid for their works past and reissued (want evidence? - read Etta James' autobiography "Rage To Survive"; she's getting royalties for her Chess catalog, which is owned by UMG).

Third of all, go back to my last paragraph - I did say that the days of "padding contracts" may not have completely gone away. I'm admitting that these things may unfortunately still exist yet not so blatantly. You can keep your ocean front property in Downtown Cleveland - I already have Coney Island here in NYC.

Also, regarding the Temptations CD - I called the FYE Store - Tower City location in Cleveland just now (6:50pm est). They have the CD in stock. If you call them now (216-736-7676)I'm sure they would be happy to reserve it for you.

Finally, I understand artists of yesteryear were ripped off and cheated of monies they rightfully earned. The main reason why I work in reissues in the first place is to shed light on these artists' trials & tribulations. I've written liner notes about artists not getting paid and getting burned by a cheating record executive or manager, from Joe Barry (who had a hit in 1961 with "I'm A Fool To Care") to George Perkins (who wasn't paid for his 1970 Top 30 R&B hit "Cryin' In The Streets" until the reissue label released his CD a year ago). I'd be more than happy to send you copies of these CDs at no charge if you want proof.

As for the talented voices that went unheard because they wouldn't sign any "b.s." contracts, again not all labels were bad. If these artists really wanted their music out there, they could've pressed up the records themselves and sell them. I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck - just making a point.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By RD (65.150.229.94) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 07:17 pm:

KevGo, thanks for the tip, but I'm not going downtown and pay for parking to buy a CD that cost about five bucks more than it would at Best Buy. Unlike New York most people here drive to where they go and downtown, particularly Public Square, is a hard ride for a CD. Did you find it at any other stores? I shop at either BestBuy, Circuit City, Coconuts, The Record Exchange or order online. Did you call Doll Rapids Creations, call Kermit and see if he has it?

KevGo, the contracts were bad and some people simply refused to go along with the game. If they had wanted their voices heard that bad I guess they would have signed. If they had the means to record and press their records I'm sure they would have done so. Being a recording artist is similar to aspiring to be a sports star or a Hollywood actress in that you don't find many Rhode Scholars let alone many with the know-all to run a recording company. And BTW I know some who did record and press their own records only to find them being played and sold 10 years later in England Northern Soul Clubs when they know they only pressed 500, and often less, copies.

And I misread, you did say padding might be still around.

But for every artist you cite that is getting paid I can name 10 that aren't. Is Fantasy Records paying anybody anything?

By musicchef (68.104.25.189) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 08:17 pm:

Hey Kev... How do I get on that mailing list ??? You should do the "KevGo" music club ala Oprah... I'll sign up !!

Da Chef

By stephanie (64.63.221.237) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 09:11 pm:

RD
I agree with some of the things that you have said but I have to side with KevGo on one thing when it comes to the rap for instance Beyonce and many more they are sampling the OLDSTUFF!!!
When I hear people talk about Beyonce's new record Crazy For Love everybody and their mom likes the horn part and its the only part they like!!!!!

When it comes to the commercials we see for teens and older people they are playing the OLD STUFF!!
I dont hear that much rap music in commercials to be honest with you Im hearing Journey and Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell and Diana Ross and KC and the Sunshine Band and Donna Summer. Eminem sampled to DEATH Dream On by Aerosmith in one of his hits!!! Janet Jackson sampled the beginning of Someday Well Be Together and some other song I
cant think of right now. Everyone is wondering where those horns in Beyonce's song is coming from and when I tell them they have a hard time believing me. When you sample the old stuff it flies off of the shelves.

Im telling you that old sound sells and it has to get back on the radio. Im not against videos but when it comes to why kids are buying junk they are being fed junk. I agree with you in the fact that people in the 50s and 60s and 70s and even now are coming up with these shady contracts and unfortunately they are at the mercy of the record company. There is no doubt in my mind that if they were to rerelease some of these songs or have some of these older artists do them they would sell.

Remember Rob Base when he sampled Lyn Collins (James Browns Protege) It takes two to make a thing go right and when Vanilla Ice sampled Queens Under Pressure it flew off of the roof!!!!
Even DJ Jazzy Jeff and Will Smith Girls of the world Aint Nothing but Trouble took the theme of I Dream Of Jeannie and Will Smith the Wild Wild West came from Kool Moe Dee....Im telling you this old stuff sells when its sampled!!! And it makes the record I dont think anyone on this board would disagree with me.

Im not saying get rid of rap Im saying lets bring back some of the old stuff to the radio. I will tell you where some of the good music is listen to some of the country music stations and you will hear some really good music and that industry is BOOMING right now if you dont believe me ask someone in the music industry and those guys play their own instruments. KISS sells out to stadiums to young and old and the Eagles are doing bang up business on their tour right now.
Im not saying bring people out of the grave but listen to how people responded to Alicia Keys and Norah Jones and India Arie!!!! I know we need people like Lil Bow Wow but if another Michael Jackson comes along watch out. All we need is a young person who can sing and dance and forget the dancers and the pyrotechnics. I have to give it to the hard rock people at least they still play their instruments. Its a shame to see what rap has done to black music its really a shame.
My proof of the pudding is Boys to Men they came out when rap was hot and they sold through the roof!!!! Oh there is definitely a market out there for people who can play instruments. I heard Barry White all over the radio the last couple of days and people are eating it up!!!!
If there was only some way to bring this sound back..big band is still going but not as big as rap. Even the stray cat guy Brian Setzer came out with the Brian Setzer Orchestra and people were flocking to see HIM!!! Swing is big in some places and look at that Momma Mia thing the play based on Abba's songs!!! There are a lot of young people who are buying this stuff and going to Tower records and the Internet to get it.

I heard Lou Christie and Tommy James say they couldnt believe the number of people in their teens coming to their concerts!!! Granted its because of their parents playing the music but it says something to me when you see that many young people flocking to hear this stuff!!! Yes Brittany and Beyonce and Backstreet Boys and people like that may have an audience for a while but if we can get some folks playing instruments again I promise you that there will be longevity again like it was for Cher and Tina Turner. These girls could only wish they would have that kind of longevity. TIffany and Debbie Gibson (although Debbie is doing well on Broadway now) couldnt get half of the audience Diana Ross and Tina Turner and Patti Labelle can get. I think Celine Dion could quit right now and have an audience 20 years from now even Miss Whitney Houston because of the classic music they have.
I can promise you if Alicia Keys puts out maybe 5 or 6 more good albums she will always have an audience. Im no big Tracy Chatmon fan but she made some good music even Macy Grey had good music and I dont care much for her voice. Some of those country guys like George Strait and Brooks and Dunn and Glen Campbell can get huge audiences because they play music. I would have more respect for the rap industry if they played some music and stopped talking about shaking booties and slamming breasts and things like that.
The one thing I do like about Eminem is his album the Eminem show was great!!!! He didnt sample on Cleaning out my Closet and the song Eight Mile and it was a lot better than that Slim Shady Crap.
Im not Eminem sympathizer but he is one of the best white rappers I have ever heard and if he continues to be original he will be in the likes of Kool Moe Dee and others. The boy can rap I would like to see him get some instruments behind him,,,
Stephanie

By Charmedes (142.165.97.59) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 09:28 pm:

Speaking of "timelessness;" here's a brief, different but perhaps related, commentary to this very stimulating conversation featuring a very old man:

"Cheered by the conversation, I began to ask my mentor, i.e. Eumolpus,...about the age of the pictures and the subject of some of the obscure ones, at the same time pressing him for the reasons for the present decadence, when the loveliest of the arts were dying out, not the least painting, which had vanished without the slightest trace.

'Financial greed has caused this revolution. In former days when mere merit was still sufficient, the liberal arts flourished and there was great competition to bring to light anything of benefit to posterity...

...Myron, who almost captured the souls of men and animals in his bronzes left no heir. But we, besotted with drink and whoring, daren't study even arts with a tradition. Attacking the past instead, we acquire and pass on only vices.

What has happened to dialectic? Astronomy? Or the beaten road to wisdom? Who has ever gone into a temple and prayed to become eloquent - or to approach the fountainhead of philosophy?

People do not even ask for a sound mind or body, but before they touch the threshold one man immediately promises an offering if he can arrange the funeral of a rich relation, another if he can dig us some treasure, another if he can come up with a safe thirty million...

...so don't be surprised that painting is on the decline when a lump of gold seems more beautiful to everbody, gods and men than anything...

...some of the people walking about in the colonnades interrupted Eumolpus' recitation with a shower of stones..."

*Satyricon by Petronius circa A.D. 66

By SB (206.215.11.222) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 10:16 pm:

Stephanie - you made some good points girl. Right on time.

Charmedes - OMG - thank you sooooooo much for that piece you posted. I loved it - for it was right up my alley. I saved it in a word file too - and it is so fitting and spot on.

I'm just blown away. It reminds me of one of the Bible & Koran stories, as it pertains to why God brought an end to the old world (Babylon). I won't elaborate - but some can imagine what I am inferring too.

I'll just say!

By Charmedes (142.165.109.172) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 10:39 pm:

Thanks, SB; glad you enjoyed it. I never meant to preach, but simply thought the "old man" might have a point relative to this discussion. Continue to check out the classics!

Goodnight!

By history buff (68.41.196.236) on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:29 pm:

to Kev go, you can have 100% of a shrinking market and you will go under slowly.Thats what your talking about, reissue recoards. Oldies ect.Its time life late nite ads 3 C.D.s for 19.05 plus S&H. Any co. must fill the wants of it customers,recoard co.s put out what the masses want or they go under,radio programs for the market share not what some people think is great music, this has always been the case, Street conner Do Wop, old school r b is now rap.Things change get used to it .Why did motown go down as a power in the music business It did not change with the times you cannot stand still,change in business, fashion cars, ect.As generations change so does their taste in music

By RD (65.150.242.102) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 04:04 am:

Stephanie, producers and writers in the sixties and seventies sampled earlier copyrights they just did it on the sly and didn't give credit unless they were forced to via legal action.

Hank Ballad's "The Twist" was derived from an old Drifter's tune "Whatcha Gonna Do." KevGo mentioned the Impressions' "I Can't Satisfy," which was derived from HDH's "This Old Heart of Mine." Smokey Robinson's "Track of My Tears" melody was ripped and modified from a Harry Belefonte tune, a Satintones' song infringed on a Shirelles' song...and on and on. At least the rappers give credit and make huge sums of money for songwriters when they sampled or use part of a previous copyright.

As for longevity, most recording artists careers are shorter than the average NFL player for various reasons, many that have been gone into before on this forum. Many recording artists from the inception of popular recordings have not exactly been entertainers or bust. A good number of the artists you mentioned that have hung around for 20 or 30 years would have done so whether they had hit records or not because they're entertainers first and recording artists second. There are singers that have been singing in clubs for 30 and 40 years without ever having one single record release; many because the contracts and the ripoffs they heard about from other singers scared them off.

I'm from the old school but I recognize change and evolution as being as natural as caterpillars changing into butterflies (or is it vice versa), which I've always thought was fascinating.

By drums (155.91.6.71) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 08:07 am:

Hi Steph!!!

Thanks for the great phone call!! And guess who was behind the sampling for Rob Base'"It Takes Two"?

You give up?

Ok Ill tell you. It was:

Teddy Riley

Daren Metz
Sony/Studio 4

By stephanie (64.63.221.138) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 08:27 am:

RD said
Hank Ballad's "The Twist" was derived from an old Drifter's tune "Whatcha Gonna Do." KevGo mentioned the Impressions' "I Can't Satisfy," which was derived from HDH's "This Old Heart of Mine." Smokey Robinson's "Track of My Tears" melody was ripped and modified from a Harry Belefonte tune, a Satintones' song infringed on a Shirelles' song...and on and on. At least the rappers give credit and make huge sums of money for songwriters when they sampled or use part of a previous copyright. >>>>>>

Well I learned something new today thanks for the info RD thats one thing I didnt know!!! I have to agree with you that now the artists are getting paid for the sampling and sampling does bring the old stuff to the ears of the young no doubt..

I totally agree with you on change RD but when we went from Bach and Beethoven to jazz to swing to soul and so on and so forth instruments were STILL being played. I have no problem with your views on change and Im all for it but I just wish they could still play instruments and this is where I dont feel that we on the forum are beating a dead horse. RD do you think there is anyway we can change and still keep the instruments intact?
Stephanie

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 11:28 am:

RD, Stephanie & Charmedes:
You all have made excellent points. There is an market for the classic stuff while music will always be evolutionary.

BTW - Two of NYC's radio stations have been playing the Chi-lites "Are You My Woman" back to back with Beyonce's "Crazy In Love". Kudos to Hal Jackson @ WBLS-FM and the folks at WRKS-FM for the spins.

Music-Chef:
"The KevGo Music Club" does have a nice ring to it...

History Buff:
As Paul Simon once wrote, "A man hears only what he wants to hear & disregards the rest." You choose to be that way, fine. It's obvious that you either haven't read my posts completely or choose to ignore certain points to justify your existence. What a sad waste of time & effort.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By PhillySOULman (172.144.221.15) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

I may have stated earlier that Jehryl Busby, formerly of MCA, Motown and Casablanca records was given a label by Def Jam called Def Jam Classics for the SOUL purpose of signing classic acts, the first signing being none other than Patti Labelle with some other surprises on the horizon!!
So you see....there IS a light at the end of the tunnel!!!!!!!

By history Buff (63.88.160.101) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 02:46 pm:

Kev Go do you realy think that becausea radio station plays a oldie back to back is big news? How many station are their in N.Y. and what market share does WBLS have? is it in the top 5 or 10 or 20? I have read your posts and agree that your knowledge about music is vast, but business is business,100% of a market that is shrinking or 10% of a market that is growing which would you rather have?Acts that filled 25000 seat venues now fill 2500seat venues. Yes sold out but how big is the house and what is the gross take? What are the ticket prices? Business is business music cars, dog food ect. forty years Carlings Black Label beer was the largest sellin beer in the world,IT WENT UNDER: IT DID NOT CHANGE WITH THE TIMES:

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

History Buff (or should I say History BLUFF):
Your posts border on the insulting which is why I deal with you with great patience.

Please spare me the "business is business" line because the information I posted is all related to business. I wouldn't be in the music business if I didn't keep one foot in the "music" and the other in the "business". Once again, you have not read my prior posts where I address the business part of the industry, which indeed shows your ignorance.

Also, both radio stations I mentioned are in the Top Ten with regards to their prospective target audiences - WRKS ranks higher than WBLS. Yet, once again, you pick on the lower ranked station to prove your point. You certainly need a lesson in seeing the big picture.

Finally, where do YOU base your evidence on? Do you read the trades? Do you even go to concerts? Do you even go to a record store to see what sells and what sits? I do all of that and more, thank you.

Like I said to you before, you read what you want and disregard the rest - which sadly shows your ignorance.

Keep bluffing, my friend....

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By History Buff (68.41.196.236) on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 10:47 pm:

To Kev GO yes I read the trades R&R Billboard, Drudge report, Arbitron. ect. It helps when your an investor. You have done every thing in the music business but prosper, Retail sales,college radio, lines notes on reissue c.d. that are so small that you need a 20X lens to read them. As for business how much do you have invested in stock in recoard companies,? I have a lot, how the hell did you pass econ 101?

By Eli (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 12:46 am:

RD,
Regarding your post of July 16th at 4:04 am,
there were no samplers in the decades which you mentioned.
"Sampling", is an electronic medium whereby a portion of audio is "lifted" from a source such as a record or any sound source and used in another song or audio source sometimes a a loop, a snippet or a whole track as in U cant touch this by Hammer.
The first samplers, the Emulator 1 and the Fairlight did not hit the market until early in 1981 so it was virtually impossible to "sample" any music before the eighties.

By RD (65.150.229.152) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 12:58 am:

Eli, call it sampling or copyright infringement to many it's the same damn thing. You're talking about some electronic device use to lift a portion of a song and I understand that, I was stating the usage of notes or elements of existing songs into new ones, which was indeed done without credit given.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:04 am:

History Buff:
I've prospered quite well in my career, otherwise I would not be here.

I've produced CD compilations, oversee the tape vault of one of soul music's legendary labels, founded a live music production company that turned a profit within the first year of operation, written liner notes for artists from the Midnight Movers to Earth Wind & Fire and acquired music catalogs on behalf of a NYC-based reissue label. Hell, I pay the rent just with one of these jobs alone.

Like you, I read the trades daily as well and gather info from the internet.

BTW - My grade is Business Economics 101 was a B+, thank you.

The basic difference between you and me is that old cliche of a half-glass of water - is it half-empty or half-full. I look at things as half-full and see if there is any growth.

Enjoy your half-empty glass...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:06 am:

PS to History B(l)uff:
Have I invested stock in a record company - yes, my own (Libra Records).

Keep sipping your water...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By History Buff (63.88.160.101) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:22 pm:

To kev go I have read you posts you were looking for a 55 dollar a nite room in detroit. and traveling by gray hound,as to owning a recoard co,$ 500. for a chapter S Corp.And $100 for a assumed name, now your in business.

By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:33 pm:

Nicely said Kev...my hat is off to you mu bro!!!

RD, yes you are absolutely right.
In our biz there has always been very blatant thievery among creative people and the powers that be(or were)
In the days of Cameo/Parkway, Kal Mann, Dave Appel and Bernie would come into the office with a stack of the latest records and copy the songs just short of the "illegal" limit that one would decipher as plageristic.
Listen to Please Mr. Postman and then listen to Mashed Potato Time.
Listen to Every day of the week by the Students and then listen to the Bristol Stomp.

To me that was blatant plagerism.

In the current world of "sampling' in the electronic or the interpolative sense, a deal is supposed to be struck between the issuing record company and the publishing company who owns the song to be sampled or interpolated.
The percentages can vary from 25% to 100% depending on the lenght of the sample or the whim of the publisher.
Sometimes a publisher will not grant a clearance as in the Beatles catalog.

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Histry Buff,
Please don't misinterperate Mr Goins search for accomodations with resonable price tags. It's just smart business. I was a producer at Motown ( a reasonably affluent label ) as well as running the studios. I always flew Coach when traveling for the company and was generally lodged in a Holiday Inn or someplace similar. As I said..it's good business.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

Eli:
Thanks, amigo!

History Buff:
Been there and done that with the clerk filing and the LLC thing. As for the Detroit thing, that's ancient history - I've posted several times before & since (ask anybody out here, they'll tell you).

Now can we be friends or what?

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Jim Vitti (69.14.79.211) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:44 am:

Hello Darin,

First of all,I would like to respond to your post on July 08 - 07:14 pm. You stated that you offered to sit in on a session with me in Ohio, and that I never responded to your request. I assume you were referring to a comment I made to you on a previous post,concerning a possible recording session with Bootsy, at his studio. Trust me Darin, my lack of response was in no way meant to be disrespectful on my part. Bootsy is a very busy guy, and so am I. We have spoken on several occasions since then , and still have not reached a definite date as to when this will take place. I hope you understand that this business is not an exact science - if you get my drift!!? If and when this session takes place - I have no qualms whatsoever about you sitting in. Anyone who really knows me, can tell you that I am always willing to share my knowledge and help any individual attain a level of confidence about recording techniques and concepts.
In the early 70's, I was an Insructor for the Recording Institute of America (RIA), here in Detroit. The classes were held in studio "A" at United Sound. Many of my students went on to become recording engineers in their own right. So, your statement - that us "old school" guys want to keep our knowledge of recording a "great mystery" is erroneous!
Darin - I sincerely apologize for not replying promptly to your request. I hope you understand.

Now can we still be friends??? I can't afford to lose any more fans -- I've only a few left!!!

Best Regards, Jim

By Jim Vitti (69.14.79.211) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:57 am:

Daren --- I also apologize for spelling your name wrong!! I got it now - - Daren.

See - there is hope for me yet!!!


Jim

By musicchef (68.104.25.189) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 04:59 am:

Looks like this discussion has erupted into a battle royal. God bless the music industry !

Da Chef
(hiding under the mixing board until the storms blow over)

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:08 am:

Nah Chef, This is just a gentle breeze.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:56 am:

Hey Chef!
Don't worry, my friend! This is just a friendly, healthy debate that is tempered with great patience (along with deep breathing, counting to ten, taking a walk to the water cooler & push-ups under the desk!).
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

I recently was talking to a friend of mine here in NYC who has an indie label/distrib/production co.,who signed a local rap act and they are causing him grief because they want to know where the big advance, the Bentleys and the Escalades are!!!
They had the audacity to tell him "yo, dis is da way dat we roll where we from son. you be layin back and relaxin while we be out dere scufflin an we got to survive"
So I suppose that is their criteria for damanding the bentleys and the Escalades.

Truly a sad state, huh????

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:37 pm:

Eli:
If I were your colleague I would drop those losers in a heartbeat.

They sadly have bought into the "bling-bling" of wanting what they cannot afford to have without working hard for it.

They want to "roll" with this material crap and they probably still live with their parents.

Like I said, Bobby - tell your friend to drop 'em like a hot potato and let 'em go to one of these big majors where they will get what they want only to be used and discarded quicker than a box of tissue paper. And let this rap group cry about getting used and burned - they will get no sympathy from those who really went through hell in the 1950s through 1970s so that these young 'uns wouldn't experience that misery.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By drums (155.91.6.71) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:42 pm:

Hi Mr Jim !!

I apologize too! I have just been very frustrated with the lack of communication between the music generations. I have listened and looked up to you and you dont even know who I am. And I do appreciate all of the kind words and the history that you and all of the rest hold in your heads.

I am one of the few people in the music industry that want to learn from you and all of the rest that are here. That way there will be NO excuses about the quality of music that will be released this year on my part.

You, Ralph, Kev, Bobby, and the rest here hold the key to probably fixing the current state of music and I am a little guy on the totem pole. I miss listening to radio and I want you guys to get music crackin again (ebonics )!

Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. I dont really care about which recording session that I watch you throw down on, as long as I get to watch how you record and get more insight into my up an coming career. (That goes for you too Bobby Eli! ) Thats right I am callin you out man!! (More ebonics )

Thanks to all!

Daren Metz
Sony Music/Studio 4

By Eli (172.133.42.47) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

Kev..
I listened to their stuff and it is not hit material, at all.
Of course, they think it is.

So many kids today are so misinformed that they think that the money, if any is made instantaneously.

Also, pretty soon all you will see rolling down the streets will be giant "rims".
No car, just rims with occupants inside spinning around like an amusement park ride!!
Hey, yo..How ya like me now???(lol)

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:57 pm:

Eli:
Who is your colleague here in NYC? Hell, if he's looking for talent that sells, he should give me a call....

Regarding the "talent" of the rappers your friend signed, as I said in the Anti-Ashanti thread, "Someone out there will like it & buy it..." Just throw up some posters on lamp-posts near the nightclubs here and the buzz will begin..

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Fred (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 11:26 pm:

"You want to know what's wrong with the music business? Not enough four minute songs with two minute bass solos." - Dave Pomoroy, after leading the All Bass Ensemble (nine, count 'em, nine bass players) featuring Bob Babbitt in a phenomenal version of "Scorpio" at the Blue Sky Court, Nashville, July 19, 2003.

Babbitt also joined the group for "War" and "Superstition." They really rocked the joint.

By medusa9e2003 (66.73.2.57) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:17 am:

Well..I guess Mr. Ruben Studdard was very Lucky 2 B selected as 'American Idol'..is that Y he's STILL haveing a lot of Post competitious remarks/
criticisms...(STILL)??? I mean he's not thin, and he's not light skinned..."BUT" he does have a great voice...was that it (just) this time, the voice?..well 'thanx 2 someone 4 using good sense and a good ear 4 talented vocals.
P.S. joB, I definately agreee with U about the
video image. (If Jill Scott was a size 6 and India Arie had silky long hair)...that's the way of the world.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.84.141) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 03:43 pm:

He rocked the joint indeed! Ellen and I sat front and center.

By Fred (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:27 pm:

Hey Bob! I read today that the "Blue Sky Court" is among the ten best dance clubs in Nashville. I would hate to see #11.