What makes a song great, and why isn't happening more today?

SoulfulDetroit.com FORUM: Archive - After July 12, 2003: What makes a song great, and why isn't happening more today?
Top of pageBottom of page   By Bassn for God (24.158.71.34) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 09:12 pm:

I am just after some ideas. I am no song writer, but I have penned a verse or two. I would like to know what people look for in a song. Soul or R&B, any type of song.
Keep the bass line strong and your heart in the song.
Robert

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e2003 (66.73.11.195) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

..well, 2 me, I'm a lyric person. A song should have a meaning, maybe even a lesson, the vocalist or musician should have talent, B a part/N 2 the song...I mean U have 2 feel what U R singing or playing. Whne the musician/vocalist feels the song, then the audience &/or the surroundings feel it 2(Vibe)...Love songs 4 an example, if U have ever been N love or been hurt N love, then U can really put yourelf N2 the song no doubt. Nowadays, a lot of people just say or make noise doing anything & without experience, feeling, no talent there's nothing left 4 the imagination. They either yell or curse & swear, undress while under the influence of some kind of chemical, and so is their audience.
U can't even dance off the stuff they make now...and please don't mention lyrics*#@*#&^$%
N fact, I don't think 2days so=called musicians know anything about love & Romance...but I'm here 2 say, There's still such a thing called "Love"..yall know it...

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:55 pm:

As the great master would say (thats Jimmy not me, smile) the lyric should tell a story, true to life, then people can relate to it. The song has to speak to him or forget it, if he ain't feelin'it, he ain't recording it. Jimmy sings the life he's lived, of pain, sorrow,love, loss, ups & downs, the experiences of the well worn life he's lived. Ringing genuine emotion out of each lyric he sings. A point of veiw from someone who has sang on stages for over 60 years,
someone who has the ability to mesmerize audiences over & over again, an incredible man.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:01 pm:

Bassn for God (that is beautiful).
Gospel songs should tell you alot by just listening to them.

In case you didn't know who I was speaking of above He is: Legendary Jimmy Scott

Top of pageBottom of page   By Nish (170.224.224.102) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

When I think of a great song, there are so many I think of. I might think of "Stardust" or "Ooh Baby Baby" or "I Can't Wait Until I See My Baby's Face" or "Please Stay (If You Should Go Away)" or ANYTHING. But the central elements that make me like a song are the melody, powerful, memorable melodies. The lyrics, honest and eloquent. The arrangement needs to be well-suited to the artist and imaginative. Complexity of musical ideas is good. All of these things occur, I think, when some genuinely cares about the music and wants to think it out before releasing some crap.

Top of pageBottom of page   By MEL&THEN SOME (81.174.192.2) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:19 pm:

Soulsister
Mr Scott just sounds the type of guy that I
Would love to meet and listen to regards his past experiences.

When you told me about his times with one of my all time best ever female vocalists
Big Maybelle
and actually being around her just blew me away.

You cant beat the voice of experience
no matter what it relates too
the fact that a person was there beats any best selling novel.

Mind you if I did ever happen to meet him He would probably get you to throw me out for rambling on
hey
just like I am doing now.

Anyway if things cannot be done
then yes give me a novel anytime.

I know you will get my drift Soulsister.
I have been taking lessons from my Agent in how to talk in the relevent way.
Good old
Agent OO Soul.

Mel(dot,dot,dash,
dash,dot,dash)

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:20 pm:

Nish;
Good call! Especially about the arraingements needing to be well-suited to the artist. The musicians should be the frame while letting the vocalist be the picture. There are many parts to a puzzel as you so eloquently explained. You are going to make one hell-a-va entertainment lawyer for your lucky artistic clients.
Respectfully,
S.S.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:41 pm:

Well, thank you so much, S.S.! I hope I can represent artists well, seeing that I think I'm an unfulfilled or frustrated one myself! :-)

Oh yeah another thing, when it comes to music w/ VOCALS, good singers MATTER. I mean, when I listen to MY music, I remember that I'm listening to the greatest and/or most compelling voices in history. Singers who like singing as opposed to obliterating songs. Now that is a lil' harder to find these days!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:53 pm:

Melandthensome;
You are now a member of a large club from that statement. No joke. You just may get that chance if you come to Ronnie Scott's in London this coming January!

Big Maybelle was something else, her stage performances were acting out the lyrics too, and her impeccable phrasing on those ballads were the best in the female catagory bar none. Jimmy dug her in everyway, took her as a sister. I told you how they would trade off songs each night while touring together. The best voices in their tourchy style together wish I could have witnessed that firsthand!!!

Funny thing that reminded me of, one night while playing Birdland a couple of years ago some of the actors came to Jimmy's performance, Ethan Hawke, Uma Thurman, Quentin Tarrentino, Natashia Richardson, Marissa Tomai (sp.), a few others & of course Joe Pesci. (chuckle) one of the reporters in the audience from the N.Y.Times asked Ethan Hawke why they were all there to see Jimmy, Ethan replied "We're here to take acting lessons." The next day it was printed in the New York Times! We all had a big laugh over that even tho'it was the truth! Funny!
About throwing out, not Jimmy, he talks too much, I'm the one tossing people out so he & his voice can get some rest! For his own well-being there has to be a cut-off point or he'll never get the rest he needs. There's so many people wanting his attention that I have to set a time limit on most. Then alot of people are just happy to speak to him for a breif moment and get an autoghraph on their book, CD, or photo. Then there often needs to be a set time for privacy, and people pertaining to his career from all aspects. There is a whole other side to this too but don't feel like getting into it now. But sure you can meet & talk with him.
SoulguardingthedressingroomSister...I'm tired just thinking about it!

Top of pageBottom of page   By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 04:08 am:

Bassn...to me, it's combination of things that make a song great. First of all, the music has got to be ON POINT. I'm probably a little more critical in this area than others, being a musician. I prefer an actual band playing than that computerized stuff, and I can tell the difference. From the looks of your name you and I have something in common (I play the bass also), so you KNOW the bass line has got to be strong. And slow or fast, the song has got to SWING for me, make me feel it.
Secondly, the artist can't just be singing the song, trying to hit the right notes and stay on key and do all kinds of tricks( a few tricks are cool). They have to make me believe that they were MADE to sing this song, and vice versa. Good example: Can you imagine anyone alse but Al Green singing "For the Good Times" or "Let's Stay Together"??? I didn't think so...he was made for those songs and those songs were made for him.
Lastly, it's got to be one of those songs that (As Steve Harvey explained so well in "Kings of Comedy") I can recognize JUST from hearing the first few opening notes, whether I'm in the car, at home, sittin' in a restaurant...WHATEVER. Within 2 seconds of song coming on, I'm like, "Ooooh, that's my SONG!!!". Examples:

the afore mentioned "Let's Stay Together", Al Green
"We Both Deserve Each Other's Love", L.T.D
"Dancing in the Streets", Martha & the Vandellas
"It's a Shame", Spinners

...and so on, you get the idea...

...This has been JoB's "Definition of a great song", thank you for tuning in....

Top of pageBottom of page   By Allen (24.24.196.115) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 04:57 am:

The reason we don't have more great songs these days are numerous. I believe the leading candidates have to be the corporations who have a strangle hold on the music industry. Sony,BMG, EMI, WEA and Universal.

They have no real interest in music as an art form. They approach music from a strictly business pov. They only understand numbers. Faster and Cheaper are their leading motivations.

One of the main objectives has been to rid their artist rosters of competent, creative people who if allowed to live up to their potential as artist, would receive an escalating royalty rate that would eventually tip the scales of royalties, to the artist' favor.

That is not the way they want to conduct business. If the public knew that artist's gross less than ten cent... that's right. Less Than A Dime... from each dollar, they'd demand a better deal and the business could no longer be conducted the way it is and has been for far too long.

People have been conditioned to accept mediocrity. We're supposed to think groups like B2K, NSYNC and et. al. are on the same level as the Temptations, The OJays and The Spinners.

However, art is organic. It's course can't be directed for long. Eventually like the Mississippi River, it will make it's own course.

People don't miss their water till the well runs dry. Our musical well is damn near a dust bowl. Remember, Art is how mankind...(and womankind) expresses itself. If we are stagnated, we falter. That's against the laws of nature.

Allen

Top of pageBottom of page   By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 05:38 am:

IMO, many of today's R&B songs appear to have no discernible melody or structure, being instead simply a vehicle for often-unnecessary vocal pyrotechnics. Style has replaced substance.

As already suggested, much of the blame can be laid at the door of the music industry, who in many respects today mirrors the movie industry, choosing the "safe option" of sequels rather than taking the risk of creating something totally new. In the same way that Hollywood instantly considers X-Men 2 to be the perfect follow-up to X-Men, successful artists are cloned to produce soundalike imitators. So often these days I hear a new song from some current R&B artist, and am convinced I've already heard it. In reality I haven't - it's just a clone in the same style of one hundred others from the past 18 months. Similarly, past hits are re-recorded on new artists (with the almost-obligatory Rap) in the same way that Hollywood often takes the easy option of a glossy remake instead of a new production.

The argument against innovation is most likely to be, "with so much at stake, we can't afford to take risks." In truth, it's risk-taking that promotes innovation and originality. If, in 1959 Berry Gordy had thought, "no - setting up my own label is too big a risk to take" where would Motown-lovers be today?

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli (151.197.181.206) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 10:42 am:

Fortunately I was brought up in the era where the song was king.
We had great artists each with their own individualistic styles who would bring new life to an already great song.

In my opinion, you had to have a great singable melody that embraced a great heartfelt lyric performed by great artists.

I had a little test.
With a lot of the songs that we wrote we would try it in different genres ie, r&b , pop, country,
jazz, etc and if it worked in al genres than we knew that we had something.

Casting was very important, as you had to marry the right song with the right artist.

Dont get me started on the" music" of today and its "artists" and creators as it would take up too much space.
I'l just say that rap and its perpertrators sounded the death knell for great music as we know it.
Hopefully, maybe one day we will return to those days.

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e2003 (66.73.3.96) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 11:11 am:

Mr. Bobby Eli,
I have the same hopes of returning 2 the days of REAL Music, the kind that made people fall N love. The kind that made people even love themselves, without taking clothes off and BN disrespectful 2 themselves & eachother. The music Ndustry is 2 blame 4 allowing this mess that's going on 2day. N stead of having a message N the music, now it's money N the music...unfortunately...NO Talent is needed. Every time I hear a rap BN backed up by the 60's or 70's music I get pi----d off!!! These rappers R millionaires when some of the guys back N the day didn't even get recognition...ok, nuff said, I'moutta here!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli (151.197.181.206) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:00 pm:

There is a new female singer with Universal who has a big smash right now, who makes Ashanti sound like Aretha by comparison.
She is DREADFULLY out of tune and the entire cd is chock full of the most amateurish dribble that I have ever heard on record!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:17 pm:

I happened to switch on MTV this morning and they showed the new video by Monica - "So Gone." It was painful to listen to. The song had no real melodic structure that I could clearly hear - partly due to the material and partly due to Monica. I imagined the sheet music for the song looking like a repetetive string of descending quarter notes and half notes that if you squint your eyes would look like a series of waves drawn on a piece of lined paper....

I remember at the last Academy Awards when Eminem won for best song(?) with something from his movie 8Mile and I thought "Gee, I'd love to see the sheet music for that song."

I also find it a big shame that today's R&B music shuns anything uptempo and in a major key. Uptempo, major key sounds like happy music to me. Is everybody really that down and depressed??

I agree with Bobby Eli when he said that "rap and its perpertrators sounded the death knell for great music as we know it."

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli (151.197.181.206) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:30 pm:

Motownboy,

I too, often try to imagine the sheet music for some of these "tunes".
In fact, sometimes I visualize the "notes" and patterns in my head just for a lark.
Where do you start, though.
Just for the fun of it. I will try to transcribe a few to see and hear the results!!

I saw a group of parody musicians recently on the Conan show doing a "lounge " version of Snoops record "Beautiful" and it was hilarious.

I sometimes have discussions with rap and hip hop "producers" who try to do R&B records and they have no clue as to the musical lingo one must use to communicater with pro musicians and technicians, fet alone how to pronounce them.
Most of them cant even pronounce the word producer.

Puhhhleeeeeze, spare me!!!!1

Top of pageBottom of page   By Eli (151.197.181.206) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

Please excuse the typos!!

Evelyn Wood, I'm not.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

HEY BFG!!!...I HAVE A THEORY...AND IT BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO SONGWRITERS AND PRODUCERS GETTING AWAY FROM THE CONCEPT OF SIMPLICITY...TOWARDS MORE COMPLEX AND "SOPHISTICATED MATERIAL!!!...IN THE OLD DAYS...GROUPS BECAME IDENTIFIABLE WITH A SPECIFIC SOUND...WHICH YOU COULD COUNT ON HEARING THREE OR FOUR SONGS DEEP INTO THE DEBUT OF THEIR RECORDING CAREERS!!!...THOSE ARTISTS OR GROUPS THEN BECAME RECONGNIZABLE TO US ALL...THUS ALLOWING THEM AT SOME POINT TO BRANCH OUT IN THE TYPE OF MATERIAL THEY RECORDED!!!...A GOOD SONG...FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES SHOULD HAVE A SIMPLE...READILY RECOGNIZABLE "HOOK"...AND THE SIMPLIER THE BACKGROUND VOCALS AND INSTRUMENTATION...THE BETTER!!!...AS A BROADCASTER...I LEARNED A VERY SIMPLE LESSON...VERY EARLY ON!!!...DO YOUR REPORTING AS IF YOU ARE SPEAKING TO A "WELL EDUCATED" 12 YEAR OLD!!!...THAT WAY...IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE TO EVERYONE...AND THE MATERIAL WILL REMAIN CLEAR AND CONCISE!!!...THAT SAME FORMULA SHOULD HOLD TRUE IN POP MUSIC!!!...TODAY...MANY SONGWRITERS WANT TO BECOME SHAKESPEAR...POE...AND CARL SANDBURG ALL ROLLED INTO ONE...AND THE AVERAGE CONSUMER JUST ISN'T GOING TO GO THAT IN DEPTH INTO THE COMPOSITION BEFORE DECIDING IF THEY LIKE IT OR NOT!!!...WE LIVE IN AN INSTANTANIOUS SOCIETY...SO THE MORE COMPLEX THE MATERIAL...THE FEWER PEOPLE THAT WILL TAKE THE TIME TO DISSECT THE MESSAGE!!!...IN OTHER WORDS...*KISS*..."KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID"...AND QUIT TRYING TO COME UP WITH THE NEXT BEETHOVEN'S FIFTH (ALTHOUGH JOHN BELUSHI DID SHOW HOW THAT PARTICULAR COMPOSITION COULD BE TRANSLATED INTO "MY GIRL" AT THE DROP OF A HAT)!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.173) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

Im no musician but I think I can write songs. I think that a good song has to have a HOOK!!!! If its going to sell...like Baby Love. Now if you are looking for the classics then a good arrangement and good lyrics like our own Bobby Eli's Sideshow that song has definitely stood the test of time. Eli dont get mad at me for saying this but when I first heard that song I didnt think it was going to be the classic it became I thought of songs being classics like Bridge Over Troubled Water or the First Time Ever I Saw your Face.

I think as I get older that Sideshow lasted (and I was too young to see it then) first of all because of the imaginary beginning of the circus sound and it has a dreamlike quality. And songs about love have tendency to last much longer so I think that love songs anyone can relate to. I also think songs that have a message like Wake Up EveryBody . Backstabbers, Love Train and this is where Philly (IMO) surpassed Motown. Motown was great with the hooks but Philly was the master when it came to the messages and I thank God for both of these record labels. I dont think we saw messages coming out of Motown until Whats Going On
by Marvin Gaye and The Temps Cloud Nine and Pyschedelic Shack. I know when the Tops went to Dunhill they did Keeper of the Castle which is a great production by the way and a good message song and had they been given more message songs I think they could have rivaled the Ojays in that area. Good songs in my opinion tell a message or just to make sales have a hook but no matter how good the singer is if the music sucks the record isnt going anywhere. Im not talking about the crap today I mean good music.
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e2003 (66.73.3.96) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 05:52 pm:

Motown Boy!!!!!!!!

I just listened 2 that new tune "So Gone" and i have 2 say, that song need 2 B gone. Did they listen 2 the song B4 they released it???everyone seems 2 B vocalizing N their own key, which sounds very out of tune....I think someone should shut down the music Ndustry and re boot,
and/or take it back 2 an earlier date...like somewhere N the 60's and/or 70's..whatta ya think??? LOL!!!
P.S. Do they think they've made a hit or something? LMAO!!!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:06 pm:

Medusa,

What is really a shame is that stuff like this sells like crazy!!! Case and point is Beyonce's new album which is predicted to be the #1 selling album this week with something between 300,000 and 400,000 copies sold. I have heard several cuts on the CD and it "ain't nuthin' special."

I think that Beyonce does have some singing talent. Perhaps someone will give her some decent material and production and we can see more of what she is capable of. She was on the Today Show Friday morning performing. It was quite strange because there was a technical difficulty when they eanted to start the first song and they had to take an early commercial break to "fix" the problem. I think they were having trouble with the pre-recorded music track and getting it to start up on cue! She did sing live ("Crazy In Love") and there was a drummer hitting real drums, but it was nothing special.....

Also, I don't get what all the fuss is about R. Kelly either..... What he did for the Isley's new album was nothing special. It was certainly no "3 + 3" or "The Heat Is On." I just don't get it.......

Top of pageBottom of page   By Common (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:18 pm:

Speaking of Beyonce, does anyone noticed that the Chi-lites' "Are You My Woman" horn section is sampled for "Crazy In Love"? Just throwing out an observation.....

Peace!

Top of pageBottom of page   By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:27 pm:

Common -

Thank you, I was trying to figure out where that sample comes from.....!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Common (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:30 pm:

Motownboy,

You're welcome! :o) I played that Chi-lites 45 to death, so it wasn't hard to miss.

Peace!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Scratcher (65.238.127.94) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:36 pm:

"Are You My Woman" was the jam. What do you Detroiters think about your homeboy Uncle Kracker breaking out big time. He's Kid Rock's friend.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Scratcher (65.238.127.94) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 07:55 pm:

Just saw the "Crazy In Love" video with Beyonce and Jay Z on MTV; the horn sample is "Are You My Woman" but damn...Beyonce is hotter than July in that video. Lawd she's a beautiful woman.

Top of pageBottom of page   By medusa9e20032003 (66.73.15.124) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 09:34 pm:

I agree, I think she'd make a better Actress ..no offense...she's very beautiful!!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Greg C. (207.103.134.48) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 09:59 pm:

I think most of the folks on this thread have pretty much summed up the reasons why good songs just aren't happening. I think another reason is "sampling". I guess I sound "old" but there was a time if you came out and sang a song that sounded like a direct copy of someone else's, they'd boo your behind off the stage. Sampling is one of the worst things that EVER happened to black music!

I hear entire songs "lifted" (stolen) and new words placed to them and folks call that a new song? PLEASE! Talk about a lack of creativity.

It's just not about PURE TALENT anymore. The music business and I place a heavy emphasis on "BUSINESS" is about numbers and making bucks. It is not about creativity, career artists, or longevity anymore.

The irony is the suits at these companies have the audacity to be angry and annoyed that the music business is doing so poorly. DUH! It's about the product. Most of the stuff they're putting out there is so bad you can't give it away...

Top of pageBottom of page   By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 10:04 pm:

The best thing on Beyonce's new CD will probably be the duet with Luther Vandross on the Flack/Hathaway classic "The Closer I Get To You". (It also appears on his CD !) My reasoning, after hearing it, is since Luther The Meticulous produced it...he gave her better direction than those in the past and would not let her over sing. Thank God...none of her trademark (and unnecessary) vocal acrobatics. This one song makes me think that there may be hope for the girl.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

Greg C:
While I agree with you and Allen regarding industry, I have limited my commentary so I can focus on doing something about it and that is forming my own label (which I've mentioned numerous times out here on the Forum).

I'm happy though that my dear friend Eugene Record will have a Merry Christmas when he gets his royalty check (he wrote "Are You My Woman") as will the rest of the Chi-lites.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

KevGo,
Let me know when you plan to activate a record label, I can write all types of songs. Prior to that go to my music resume page and listen and give me your opinion of the songs. I do not write anything that is Rap, Gospel, or Political. I have written over 6,500 songs many Spinners (Phil Wynne vintage stuff), Stylistics, and a lot of authentic Doo Wop. I have great material for either of the two groups mentioned.

soulwalking.co.uk/Lonnie%20Cook.html is the url.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 07:20 pm:

Doowopsvoice:
Libra Records is my label and I'm still taking the baby steps needed to get going.
I would love to hear your songs. I'll check out your page later on today or tonight.
Thank you,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By stephanie (64.63.221.14) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 08:11 pm:

Common
Thank you so much!!!! That is the only hook IN that song and that is why its selling!!! I was trying SO HARD to figure out where I heard that hook before.....everybody I know young and old likes the horn part the best..
Stephanie

Top of pageBottom of page   By Diego (152.163.252.68) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 10:38 pm:

Kev--what is Eugene Record up to these days?

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 11:59 pm:

SPEAKING OF "THE HOOK"...I BELIEVE THAT IT IS BASICALLY ESSENTIAL FOR A NEW ARTIST TRYING TO BREAK OUT OF THE PACK!!!...THATS WHY A NEW ARTIST CAN AND OFTEN DOES BECOME ASSOCIATED FOR A LIFETIME WITH THAT FIRST "HOOK"...AND SINCE SUCCESS BREEDS SUCCESS...A FOLLOW UP SIMILAR TO THE FIRST!!!...THAT'S THE FORMULA (WITH CERTAIN OBVIOUS RARE EXCEPTIONS!!!...ONCE AN ARTIST ESTABLISHES HIM OR HERSELF...THEN THEY HAVE EARNED THE RIGHT TO EXPERIMENT MORE...AND THE AUDIENCE AND PATRONS WILL MOST LIKELY GIVE THEM THE SLACK TO TRY DIFFERENT THINGS!!!...GET "DA HOOK"...IF YOU WANT TO GET IT OFF THE GROUND!!!...STU(I DIDN'T SAY GET A "HOOKER")BASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:30 am:

Diego:
Eugene Record is alive and well in Chicago. He recorded a Gospel album years ago on his own label, Evergreen Records, that was arranged by William "Sonny" Sanders. He appeared with the Chi-lites when they received honors from the R&B Heritage Foundation a couple of years back.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 12:27 pm:

SONGS ARE STORIES OR POETRY SET TO MUSIC,SOMETIMES IT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAY,BUT HOW YOU SAY IT,MOST OF THE CLASSICS WE DISCUSS HERE ARE LOVE SONGS,BUT BECAUSE OF THE GREAT SONGWRITERS OF THE 50'S,60'S,70,80'S[SMOKEY,CURTIS,STEVIE,HOLLAND,DOZIER,HOLLAND,BOBBY ELI,THOM BELL,LINDA CREED ECT.]WE HAVE THESE CLASSICS BECAUSE OF THEIR BRILLIENT ENTERPRETATIONS WHEN EACH SONG WAS A STORY UNTO ITSELF,BUT IN THE LAST 20 YEARS OR SO IT SEEMS LIKE THE WELL HAS GONE DRY.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Common (209.2.55.169) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 12:41 pm:

Stephanie:

I was quite surprised that they(the producers) digged that far to find that Chi-Lites record. The only way they would've gotten that was out of their parents record collection. Ya think? Originality has long gone & buried!! BTW, there is a review in the current Vibe of Beyonce's CD, the sample is only mentioned as "An old Chi-lite song". You think they could've at least have the decency to put name of the song??? Why half-step like that?

Peace!

Top of pageBottom of page   By Diego (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

Kev, thanks for the Eugene Record update. Always loved that brother's singing and songwriting. The gospel hookup with Sonny Sanders must be a real collector's item. Is it available anywhere?

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

Common:
Vibe Magazine & its journalists write articles that is aimed at their audience, which is mainly the youth who buy hip-hop and what THEY call R&B.

When Brunswick Records was reactivated in 1995, Vibe Magazine was one of the first publications that was contacted regarding the label's resurgence. They were anything but responsive to any of our promo mailings and we finally gave up on them months later.

To see that they gave the Chi-lites ANY props is a surprise to me. But if Quincy & his crew thinks this is gonna win points, they should think again.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By RD (63.188.32.110) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 02:54 pm:

Songwriters and publishers love it when their songs are sampled. They make thousands of dollars. I know of some cases where the original releases didn't make any money to speak of, then a sample, and boon a check in the mailbox for thousands.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:03 pm:

Diego:
There was a site Eugene Record had that advertised his gospel CD but it's now under construction.

The next time I email Sonny Sanders I'll find out how to get the CD.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By Des (81.152.238.63) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 05:33 pm:

Hey,"R&B" -- The well hasn't run dry.Same to all previous Threads here that r down on the current music scene. If u have the time & money to stay on top of what does make it out these days there's still lotsa good things happening. It's just different to pioneering days in early 70's when Stevie/Marvin/Donny-H/Isleys were delivering high quality songs(involving all the aspects that make a good song - melody,production,lyric and heart) to make us "oldies" think like generations before us -- that it was so much better when we were kids !! HA - don't fall into that trap -- look to Saadiq/Musiq/Gerald Levert/Howard Hewett/Rahsaan Paterson/Teddy Riley/R Kelly to name but a few,who are gifted and exciting.
There may not be as much as there was in 70's - but remember that a lot of what is properly (and widely) acknowledged now to be "great" was often undervalued/ignored or,indeed,criticised on first release....Ya can't win sometimes.
All I'd say is,keep the joy in your heart that let you love the stuff you think was/is unassailable and listen closely to some of the newer guys/gals -- you'll get it again.

Top of pageBottom of page   By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 05:56 pm:

Des:
As someone who works in the industry and have been for several years, I wish I could share your optimism.

The artists you mentioned are indeed talented folks (throw in Detroit's Kem as well) but they are just a FEW that make it out of the gate with talent & musicality. And if they are lucky, the labels will promote & market their music as well.

Look at Raphael Saadiq - great talent, great album, barely sold a quarter-million and was DROPPED by Universal Music Group three weeks before he earned a Grammy for a track from the CD that got him booted from the label.

We may indeed "get it again" but it won't be from the majors, that's for sure. It may take a new revolution of independent labels using diffrent means to reach an audience (Internet, satellite radio, good ol' word of mouth) to make this happen.

I'm not expecting this from the soon-to-be-shrinking "Big 5", that's for sure.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

Top of pageBottom of page   By Des (81.152.238.63) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 06:57 pm:

KevGo/
Yr points are undoubtedly well made.These issues are complex and not easily resolved in a NetThread exchange...I guess I overlooked the part of this Thread that says "....and why isn't more happening today?".I would say that the circumstances (music biz and sociological) that saw Stevie/Marvin et al emerge, cannot be replicated.As a result,no more Stevie's/Marvins - same as "no more Beatles/Stones". This seems logical. So once the "Industry" learns from (and has exploited) the likes of Stevie/Marvin-types back in the 70's/80's and society moves on -- no more riots (be they Chicago or Brixton) and people have a little more money....and escapism is all that counts....and Dope fuels that escape....and there's violence in the urban and suburban air and this breeds aggression - and HipHop and Rap becomes the inarticulate/thuggish voice of many....man,there's a million things that make up the reasons why the Majors managed to control what we see and hear -- if we're disinclined to seek it out.
I'm over in UK (near London) and was a huge enjoyer(not "consumer") of music from 70's onwards (I have around 3000 albums and around 800 cd's) - the proverbial catholic taste.....and still buy - I have many of the albums/12"rs that influence the Raphaels and Musiq's of today and,with more limited time to "enjoy" my music these days,perhaps I don't feel the restrictions the Majors impose and,as a result,I'm one of those 40-something "consumers" who are fed a diet and don't complain.
By the way,I tripped over this Site 'cos I'm trying to ascertain if the Motown Chartbuster Boxsets on Spectrum Music are "good" remasters or poor repackages (thanks to our caring friends at Motown in the late 80's/early 90's) -- Kevgo,if u help there as well as set me straight re "the Majors" , I'll be most grateful.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Des (81.152.238.63) on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 07:40 pm:

KevGo/
After my last msg,I trawled down the Threads and caught yr exchange on June 11 re.Motown Chartbusters.
I loved those Compilations back in 70's -- particularly Vol.6 -- and I didn't realise they weren't released in the States in the same way!
Shame that no-one knows if they're remasters -- sure doesn't look like they are,which is a shame,I'd love to pick 'em up in a couple of boxes.
As I'm writing this,I'm thinking I'd read somewhere that they were remastered and released individually about a year or two ago -- and the old analogue cd's were reduced to @ 5 bucks here in UK to try and move 'em before the superior sounding cd's appeared.
If anyone can shed further light on these baby's I'd appreciates it.

Top of pageBottom of page   By hoz (216.24.66.185) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:53 pm:

Hello everyone--
I happened to stumble across this site while looking for something else--GREAT STUFF!, but wanted to add something about great songs, as I've been a writer for over twenty years.

A hit songwriter and I had a discussion where he felt the quality of a great song was 'timeliness'.

As in, a great song arriving at just the right time in history where it is needed by a bunch of people. (ex: "I am Woman", or "American Pie", "RESPECT", etc etc)

I felt great songs were based on the quality of
'timeless-ness', where no matter just when that song was written, it managed to endure for decades or even centuries, because it continued to be needed by succeeding generations ("Amazing Grace",most Motown stuff, etc.....).

While both of us were right in our own ways, perhaps the best definition of a great song is that it speaks the truth in both a timely and timeless fashion....putting words in the mouths of billions.

I hope I have added something worthwhile. Best wishes to all of you--keep the flame burning for the great ones!

hoz

Top of pageBottom of page   By Raph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:56 pm:

Hoz,
Welcome to the forum. Don't be a stranger. Nice post.

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:19 pm:

Hi Hoz;
Excellent point, welcome aboard.
Don't mind if we get a little silly sometimes i.g.STUBASS's Angels, sorry I get a liitle dilerious sometimes !
I agree 100% with your "timeless" theory.
Soul Sister

Top of pageBottom of page   By hoz (216.24.70.45) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:50 pm:

Thanks for the warm welcome...I'll try to drop in often. Although I'll warn you, I'm not the 'soul expert' all of you are........I simply love the music, and have for as long as I can remember. To me, the great music I heard was nurtured in the small fundamentalist churches in West Texas in the sixties....the region where I was born. I can remember at the age of six riding with my best friend in the back of her family's station wagon (all ten or so of us) across those tornado scraped plains to the next camp meeting and hearing the most fantastic music in the world. When Aretha and Marvin along with so many others came washing into my ears on some crackling am radio station, I found mother's milk of great music, honestly delivered. As a writer, I could never live up to those standards, but my writing life will be a noble attempt to do so.

Great music knows no boundries of race or gender or generation, it simply IS.

Hank Williams was as soulful as Marvin Gaye. Patsy Cline and Mahalia Jackson.

Soul is only that. And it is God's gift to this planet.

What makes my heart sad is that most of that honesty and love of pure music was lost in these current years because purity, fun of creativity and entrepraneurship (sp?) were replaced by greed and arrogance.

But I believe that great music is there, simply waiting to be discovered or re-discovered.

People still need great music.

That will never ever change.

Keep the faith--

hoz
(I'll hush now)

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:58 pm:

NICE ONE HOZ!!!...AND LISTEN...YOU'RE AS MUCH AN EXPERT AS ANYONE ELSE HERE AS TO WHAT YOU APPRECIATE ABOUT MUSIC!!!...AND YOU'RE RIGHT...GOOD MUSIC IS GOOD MUSIC...REGARDLESS OF ANY ARTIFICIAL BOUNDARIES CREATED BY RACE...RELIGION...REGION...OR NATIONALITY!!!...WELCOME!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:01 pm:

hoz;
I'm no music expert either just someone who loves and been around the music a long time.
S.S.

Top of pageBottom of page   By SoulangelSister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:05 pm:

STUBASS;
I thought you were watching the game? Or are you tracking good music? (chuckle).
S.S.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:25 pm:

NO GAMES SOUL SIS...UNLESS ONE WATCHES THE WNBA...AND I DON'T!!!...ACTUALLY...JUST WORKING...AND CAN'T GO HOME FOR ANOTHER HOUR!!!...STU

Top of pageBottom of page   By SoulangelSister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:47 pm:

STU;
AWWWKAY but don't work too hard. You know the all work & no play stuff, don't want to make STUBASS a dull boy.
S.A.S.

Top of pageBottom of page   By SoulangelSister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:54 pm:

STU;
You can see I'm bored today spent an hour on the phone with Vonnie & Bobby, while they were making pina coladas in N.Y.! They'll be coming out here end of August to make some by the barrier reef.(chuckle). Bobby will get with Jimmy and the music while Vonnie will give me the much needed help I need with the technology of my computer functions. Should be alot of laughs!
S.A.S.

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:03 pm:

WELL DAMN SOUL SISTER!!!...LOOKS LIKE I'M GONNA BE REAL DULL TONIGHT...CAUSE JUST AS I WAS GETTING READY TO LOCK THE DEALERSHIP...TWO CUSTOMERS SHOW UP WANTING TO BY ODYSSEY'S!!!..I WOULD BLOW THEM OUT...BUT STUBASS CARES ABOUT HIS EMPLOYEES...SO I'LL STAY TO SEE IF ONE OF MY GUYS CAN MAKE A COMMISSION!!!...STU(GOOD BOSS)BASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Sister (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:14 pm:

Thats a nice boss STUBASS, do help the employee and sell that car!!

I'm going to close and say goodnight. By the way do your employees know their boss is an Angel Daddy Master and plays on the SD Forum while on the job?? (he-he-he-).......

SoulcuriousSister

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:18 pm:

YEAH SOUL SISTER!!!...THEY ALL KNOW I'M SOME KINDA DADDY...AND ALSO KNOW I PLAY!!!...IT'S THE GM/VP THAT I HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT!!!...BUT ONE THING ABOUT "ANGEL DADDY"...HE'S ABLE TO BE THE BEST AT WHAT HE DOES...AND STILL TEND TO HIS "ANGELS"!!!...NITE NITE!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:27 pm:

WELL SIS!!!...WHEN I SAW THE CUSTOMER...I KNEW JUST WHAT I WAS DEALING WITH (STEREOTYPING ASIDE...BUT AFTER 20 YEARS...YOU LEARN CERTAIN THINGS)!!!...WHEN I SAW THE OFFER...I LAUGHED...TOLD THE SALESMAN TO SHOW THE CUSTOMER THE DOOR...THEN...WANTED TO RUN AFTER THE CUSTOMER...JUST TO THANK THEM FOR JERKING ME OFF FOR 30 MINUTES ON A SATURDAY NIGHT...BUT BEING THE PROFESSIONAL THAT I AM...I JUST THOUGHT IT!!!...STUBASS

Top of pageBottom of page   By Soul Angel (65.43.167.42) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:50 pm:

NITE NITE!!!...


Add a Message


Username:

  You must enter your name or nickname into the "Username" box.
Your e-mail address is optional.

E-mail: