By dvdmike (68.23.176.41) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:56 pm:| By dvdmike (68.23.176.41) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:56 pm: |
Buddy Miles was the drummer on the The Jaynetts' 1963 hit ,"Sally Go 'Round The Roses"
Jeffrey Osborne was the drummer on Smokey Robinson's 1974 album, "Pure Smokey" that included "Virgin Man"
Johnny Carter of The Dells was an original member of The Flamingos. That was Johnny doing the falsetto obligatos on 1959's "I Only Have Eyes For You"
The bass vocal on Jackie Wilson's 1962 R&B hit, "I Just Can't Help It" was sung by Jimmy Jones of The Dixie Hummingbirds. Not the same person as Jimmy "Handy Man" Jones
Prince played keyboards and sang background on "Super Hero", a track from Earth, Wind & Fire's 1993 Millenium" LP. He also wrote and co-arrange the track.
At the time Valerie Simpson was writing and producing (with Nick Ashford) at Motown, she was doubling as a New York session singer, appearing on hits like "1-2-3-" by Len Barry and "Sunny" by Bobby Hebb as well as some Quincy Jones jazz LPs.
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:11 pm: |
Johnny Carter and Jackie Wilson were the only two mentions I heard about. I think I heard that about Valerie Simpson but didn't know behind who.
Good info. dvdmike, thanks for giving us the 411.
S.S.
| By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:54 pm: |
Val Simpson and Nick Ashford apparently did some backgrounds behind Carol Jackson as the "Sapphires" when she did some NY sessions.
| By Nish (66.119.33.135) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:01 am: |
"Johnny Carter of The Dells was an original member of The Flamingos. That was Johnny doing the falsetto obligatos on 1959's "I Only Have Eyes For You."
Actually, Johnny Carter was an original member of the Flamingos. He was in the group from 1953-1957, he recorded on the early Chicago sides on Chess and the Chance sides. J.C.'s awesome falsetto is really best heard on "Golden Teardrops" and "If I Can't Have You." he was one of the great doo-wop falsettos.
By the time "I Only Have Eyes For You" was recorded, J.C. was replaced by Terry Johnson, who is the falsetto on that song (Tommy Hunt also came over from the Five Echoes, too, which happens to be Johnnie Taylor's old Chicago group).
On another did you know point - Nate Nelson (the DREAMY lead on "I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU") had a single with a Flamingos soundalike group called the Starglows with "Let's Be Lovers."
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:14 am: |
Hey Nish;
Good research. The first time I saw the Flamingos live was in 1965, their guitar player was playing with his toungue & teeth. He also played in the play "Hair" about 5 years later.
S.S.
| By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.118) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:54 am: |
How about T-Bone walker and many like him playing the guitar behind his head and probably with his toes and teeth etc
way before the likes of Jimi Hendrix etc.
I have a great pic of T-Bone walker with a massive guitar behind his head playing it,
now I am not a guitar expert but this gee-tar
sure looks big.
A great guitarist(andthensome)
mel(strumming outtahere0
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:15 am: |
It's funny, but in the early days of Rock and Roll it was fashionable for guitar players to play the guitar behind there head. My brother Russ did it when the guitar was nearly as big as he was.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
dvdmike & others:
Valerie Simpson also sang background on Dionne Warwick's "I Say A Little Prayer" and along with Nick Ashford & Melba Moore were the background singers on Jay & the Techniques' hits ("Apples Peaches Pumpkin Pie", "Keep The Ball Rolling").
Barbara Acklin wrote "Whispers (Gettin' Louder)" with future Chi-lite member David Scott. "Whispers" was Jackie Wilson's comeback hit in 1966.
The Dells are the featured background singers on the Players' 1966 hit "He'll Be Back". They also sang backup on Barbara Lewis' "Hello Stranger" two years prior.
Kenny Loggins co-wrote "What A Fool Believes" with Michael McDonald. After it became a Grammy-award winning hit, Michael returned the favor by singing background on Kenny's hit "This Is It."
The Chi-lites' "Living In The Footsteps Of Another Man" was written by Tony Drake (of "Let's Play House" and "Suddenly" fame). He wrote it under his real name Samuel Garner.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
Did you know...Dee Dee Sharp is part of the
backing chorus on Jackie Wilson's "Higher &
Higher"
Marlena Davis of the Orlons is the female voice
on the Tymes' "So Much In Love"
Rod Stewart plays the harmonica solo on Millie
Small's "My Boy Lollipop"???
| By TonyRussi (68.18.39.39) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:29 am: |
Its always interesting to find out the background or behind the scenes info on recordings...I would have never guessed that Buddy Miles was the drummer on those Jaynettes recordings..."Whispers(Getting Louder)" is one of Jackie Wilsons' greatest to me, Barbara Acklin was a very good writer.Thanks for the information everyone...thats what makes Soulfuldetroit so cool!
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
Tony:
Barbara Acklin's gifts were her singing and writing, as well as being one of the sweetest people in the world.
Producer Carl Davis was going to save "Whispers" for the Artistics but Jackie insisted on recording the song. They cut it at Columbia Records' Chicago studio (on McClurg Court) and it became Jackie's first Top 20 pop hit in two years.
Barbara went on to write several tunes with Eugene Record including the classic "Have You Seen Her." Her solo career gave her hits like "Love Makes A Woman" and the classic "Am I The Same Girl" (a/k/a "Soulful Strut").
Barbara was a lovely woman and a dear friend who passed in November 1998. I miss her.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.234) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:44 am: |
It's been written for years that Buddy Miles played on "Sally Go Round the Roses" but it's never been documented. Nobody who was on the session including the singers have been documented. It's been rumored that Baby Washington and Lezlie Valentine sang on the session, along with: Johnnie Louise Richardson, Ethel Davis, Mary Sue Wells, Yvonne Bushnell, and Ada Ray; nobody but Zell Sanders and producer Abner Spector know for sure and both are deceased. Spector wanted to use the Hearts behind Johnnie L. Richardson's lead but some Jaynettes may be on the session as well. The session supposedly cost an astronomical (for 1963) $60,000 and had many takes; even the participants are unsure if what they did made the final cut.
| By Common (209.2.55.170) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:46 am: |
Hello everyone,
Speaking of Barbara Acklin, I have a 45 she did called "I'm Living With A Memory" b/w "I Did It". Was this cut featured on any album & which side was the hit? I love both of these songs & was wondering if she was also backed by the Chi-Lites on these songs.
Peace!
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
Hey Common:
If I may..."I Did It" was the A-side, charted #28 R&B/#121 Pop (Billboard). It was the title track of Barbara's fourth Brunswick album.
The Chi-lites sang background on "I Did It"/"I'm Living With A Memory" and many other Barbara Acklin tunes including her hit "Love Makes A Woman" and the classic "Am I The Same Girl."
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By TonyRussi (68.18.39.39) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
Hey Kevin, I saw Barbara Acklin in the late 70's, she was one of the opening acts for Millie Jackson along with the Moments(if my memory is correct). She was very good and sounded just like her records.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
Tony:
Wow...you were lucky to see Barbara in concert. From what she told me prior to her death she rarely toured or appeared on television.
I'm glad you have fond memories of her performance.
Opening for Millie Jackson...talk about going from sweet to salty! 
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By MEL&THEN SOME (217.14.178.20) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:50 pm: |
Barbara appeared over here at a uk all-nighter(s)
around the mid to late 1980's
blew me away when she did
"love makes a woman"
still a great sound and I even have the instrumental to it by young holt unlimited which is also the real deal.
I have a huge calender with a big pic of Barbara right in the middle of it on stage at a venue.
always remembered
mel
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 01:12 pm: |
Did you know that Luther Dixon was married to
Inez Foxx and that she and he wrote the Platters'
hit "I Love You 1,000 Times"?
| By stephanie (64.63.221.20) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 02:45 pm: |
Did you know that KevGo is really Berry Gordy in disguise?
Did you know that STUBASS is the brother of Eddie Levert?
Did you know that Bobby Eli really owns Philadelphia International?
Did you know that Scratcher is the pen name for
Quincy Jones?
Did you know that Nish is Ralph and Russ Terrana's (the terrible Terrana Twins Lawyer)?
Did you know that Sue owns the Detroit Free Press?
Did you know that MelandthenSome wrote the lovely ballad Endless Love and he gave Lionel Ritchie the credit because he was down and out?
Did you know that Holland Dozier Holland are fake names for Marshall Crenshaw and John Barry Sheffield and Medusa?
Did you know that Fayette and Vonnie and Sisdetroit did the voices for Destiny's Child and like Milli Vanilli the public doesnt know until I revealed it in the National Enquirer last week?
Oh finally dont let KevGo fool you he owns just about every Sam Goody and amazon.com in the US he hides behind that facade of managing a record store so no one will know. He wants to see what is selling so he can concoct a new marketing scheme
.........Just wanted to play
Stephanie
A (truthtellingSTUBASS LEVERT) STUBASS Angel
| By stephanie (64.63.221.20) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 02:47 pm: |
Did you know that the Angels were the backup singers on Lou Christie's Lightning Strikes and some of his other hits?
Did you know that Randy Jackson is the cousin of Samuel L Jackson? Randy Jackson is one of the judges on American Idol.......and these are truths by the way.
Stephanie
| By mel (217.14.178.121) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 02:50 pm: |
Did you know that heinz had 57 varieties.
can anyone name them.
mel(because beanz meanz heinz)
| By Bong-Man (63.148.123.161) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 02:59 pm: |
Did you know that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin played guitar on:
It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones
My Love - Petula Clarke
Can't Explain - The Who
...and many more?
That Neil Young was a session player for Motown for a very short time...along with his buddy Rick (super-freak) James ?
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 05:53 pm: |
Stephanie:
If I was really Berry Gordy in disguise, my family would've loaned me the money to start Libra Records a lonnnnnnnngggg time ago!
In fact, by now Bobby Eli & I would've merged companies to create one big conglomerate and hired Ralph Terrana to be the front man! Nish would be our legal affairs director and David Meikle the chief of security!
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:01 pm: |
Kevin
Do you know anything about these 3 Jackie Wilson tracks?
"Because of you", "Just be sincere" and "My heart is calling".
I take it they were recorded in Brunswick's studio on South Michigan.
Who would be in the band, background vocals etc.
Fabulous, fabulous music.
| By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:17 pm: |
Doo Wop Hall of Fame says that Johnny Carter went into the Army in 1956 and was not accepted back into the Flamingos when he got out in 1958, so he sang no voice with them in 1959. At the time of the release of "I only have eyes for you" he was a member of the Dells.
| By dvdmike (68.72.111.85) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:23 pm: |
Randy, that was not Dee Dee Sharp on "Higher And Higher". The female voices on the track were Motown's Andantes.
David, "Just Be Sincere" and "My Heart Is Calling" were cut at Columbia on McClurg Court between Ohio and Ontario streets inside the WBBM-TV building. "Just Be Sincere was recorded on August 8, 1966 and "My Heart Is Calling" on October 10 of the same year. WBBM is Chicago's CBS affiliate. "Because Of You" was cut at either Brunswick or Universal, I don't know which. I don't know that Jackie did much cutting at Brunswick. But I do know that Carl Davis flew down James Jamerson, Joe Hunter, Earl Van Dyke and Eddie "Bongo" Brown to play on the sessions.
| By dvdmike (68.72.111.85) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:25 pm: |
Johnny Carter himself told me years ago that he sang on "I Only Have Eyes For You." And he didn't join the Dells until Johnny Funches' departure in 1960. "I Only Have Eyes For You" was recorded at Regent Sound Studios in NYC on October 31, 1958.
| By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 06:26 pm: |
Joe Rock was the manager and cowriter with the Skyliners for all of his lifetime in music. He was interviewed for the Doo Wop Hall of Fame before he died and was asked about a single on Atco by the Skyliners, "I'd Die". He told us that there were actually two songs he had slated to record on them that day but Atco bigwigs told him that the second song was not suited for the group. So Joe said he had the Flamingos record it (under a fake group name)to keep from wasting the studio date. It was a spur of the moment thing. The interview is on tape and will be published sometime in the future.
| By doowopsvoice (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 07:06 pm: |
DvdMike;
Someone is embellishing their history, a portion of what you said has to be true. When I interviewed them only Johnny and Marvin would sit down with me, the others went out for the day. The time was 1995 at the R&B foundation awards and the Carey Bros. would not sit at the same table with Johnny because the resentment over their refusal to take him back still persisted.That year they had to sing together to recieve the award but, they were not on speaking terms. Marvin and Johnny told me the story of how he became a Dells member but the timeline was obfuscated because there was the matter of an auto accident that Marvin said was so bad that the group actually broke up for a year, he said. During that time Chuck sang as one of the Moonglows with Marvin Gaye and Harvey. The problem is why would Johnny consent to sing anything with them when they refused to take him back? Finally, Johnny said that someone masquerades as him even to this day.
| By David Meikle (81.130.211.124) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 05:02 am: |
Thanks dvdmike, much appreciated.
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:35 am: |
dvdmike, according to DEE DEE SHARP herself it
is HER on Jackie Wilson's "Higher & Higher"
along with some others--not the Andantes!
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:50 am: |
Just spoke to Dee Dee Sharp and she can't remember
the names of all the other women, but they were
older women who did backgrounds and she does
remember one was named Helen. DeeDee just happened to be at the session so she joined in.
She had also, years earlier before she was famous,
sang backgrounds on Lloyd Price's "Personality".
| By Heikki (62.71.79.239) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 09:03 am: |
Hi!
A few quotes from the Dells boys:
Michael McGill: "November the 21st, 1958, we had a car accident on the Ohio turnpike, and I was in the hospital in Berea, Ohio, which is near Cleveland, for approximately five and a half - six months...we had the car turned over three times, and they had to cut me out of the car with the fire department...
...We got disbanded. I started to work, I think, in November '59, and worked for like two years. We really didn't want to sing, but after we worked for a couple of years, we started trying to sing again..."
Verne Allison: "After the accident we disbanded for awhile. We all had jobs. Mick went to Kaiser Aluminium, Chuck had the job driving the cab, Marvin worked in a steel mill and also Johnny was in the steel mill. I worked at the hospital. I was an orderly."
Chuck Barksdale: "That was in '59 when I hooked back up with Harvey Fuqua, who had just brought another group to Chicago called the Marquees. In that group was Marvin Gaye, Chester Simmons, who was also a bass singer, James Nolan and Reese Palmer. They were then called the New Moonglows. That was what kept my feet based inside of show business..."
Michael: "Chuck, Marvin, Verne, myself and Johnny Funches, we auditioned for Dinah Washington in '61...We passed the audition. When it was time for us to leave, Funches said that he didn't want to leave his job and he couldn't go back on the road and get back into show business. And it just so happened that I had seen Johnny Carter one day and I happened to get his number. He wasn't with the Flamingos any longer, but had a 9-to-5 job..."
Marvin Junior: "We put Johnny in the car and drove around the block. We hit a little harmony, he put his tenor in and it fit, so we took him with us."
Johnny Carter: "The group (the Flamingos) came out of church. There were two sets of cousins. Paul Wilson and I were cousins, and Zeke and Jake Carey were cousins. We had all been playing in church together. I was on all those early recordings - Golden Teardrops, Ko Ko Mo, I'll Be Home - up till I Only Have Eyes For You, and I arranged all of those songs."
(Soul Express; the Dells Story)
Best regards
Heikki
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 09:16 am: |
Did you know Phil Spector plays guitar on the
Drifters' hit "On Broadway" (which he originally
produced on the Crystals for their first album)
Did you know one of Neil Diamond's very first
songs to be recorded was by the Rocky Fellers
(Santa Santa on Scepter, Dec. 1962)
Did you know the musician calling out "What key,
What key?" on Fingertips by Little Stevie Wonder
is Mary Wells' bass player? (She was next on the
bill and he had come on stage & plugged in when
they went for another encore--I heard he said
a lot of other things, but the band drowned it
out)
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 09:28 am: |
Did you know the woman who is today assisting
Phil Spector, Michelle Blaine, is the daughter
of drummer Hal Blaine and was named after
Shelley Fabares? Hal Blaine played drums on
most of Shelley's recordings.
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 01:00 pm: |
dvdmike & David:
"Because Of You" was cut at Universal and mixed by Bruce Swedien at Brunswick's in-house studio on South Michigan Avenue in the building that Vee-Jay Records occupied.
The Columbia Records studios on McClurg Court was also where Carl Davis cut his now-legendary Okeh sessions.
I spoke to Carl on the phone the other day about the Funks - he did use James Jamerson & Richard "Pistol" Allen on Jackie Wilson's sessions from the "Whispers" album to the single "Since You Showed Me How To Be Happy".
I also spoke to Joe Hunter & he didn't play on Jackie's sessions - Johnny Griffith was the pianist.
Randy:
Sorry, friend - Louvain Demps & the Andantes sang background on Jackie's "Higher & Higher" - this is according to my discussions with Carl Davis & William "Sonny" Sanders, the producer & arranger on the session.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 01:01 pm: |
PS - Joe Hunter & Benny Benjamin played on the session for Mary Wells' "Dear Lover", which was produced by Carl Davis.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 01:35 pm: |
KevGo, I am going by what Dee Dee Sharp says.
I'll relay your info. to her.
Randy
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 02:49 pm: |
Did you know that Dusty Springfield recorded the original vocal track for Jackie Moore's early 1970s minor hit "Sweet Charlie Babe" (on the same multitrack tape) in 1970? The tape with Dusty's vocal was never mixed down and Dusty's vocal was erased and Jackie's recorded over it?
Also, the multitrack tape that was used for the MFSB song "Something For Nothing" (from their first PIR LP "MFSB" - 1973) was actually from the same sessions in 1970 as "Sweet Charlie Babe." Her vocal version was finally released on the Rhino CD compilation "Dusty Springfield Love Songs" in 2001?
| By dvdmike (68.72.91.184) on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:14 pm: |
Kev, I didn't think Jackie did much cutting at Brunswick. It was a rather small room and they would have had to do several overdubbing sessions to accomodate all of the instrumentation. Studio A in Universal however was quite large. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, at one point Universal had about 10 rooms. I mean the location on Walton & Rush Streets, their home for almost 40 years.
| By publicimageltd. (65.142.87.93) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 12:24 am: |
1. Neil Young was NOT a session player for Motown. Along with Rick James, they had a band called the Mynia Birds (sic) which was signed to Motown, but never released any material. They broke up when James, i believe, was drafted.
2. Jimmy Page played with EVERYBODY of any note in England in the mid-60's. This was how he not only learned his guitar technique, but his abilities as a producer.
3. Luther Vandross got his big break as a backing vocalist for David Bowie. Vandross does most of the vocal arrangements on Bowie's "Young Americans" album. The song "Facination" is a re-working of Vandross' "Funky Music (It's a Part of Me)that appears on this first album "Luther"
Vandross also toured with Bowie during his Philly Dogs tour of late 74. They played 6 nights and the old Michigan Theatre (Palace). The band also included David Sanborn and Harlem Guitarist Carlos Alomar, who would become Bowie's musical arranger and work with many other big name British acts.
4. Alomar did one session with James Brown which turned out to be a bust, because Alomar missed a "hit me " que and had half his pay docked. Brown would later (uncredited) use Alomar's riff from Bowie's "Fame" in "Hot (I Need to be Loved, Loved, Loved)."
5.Because of the success of "Fame" in America. Bowie became the first white performer on "Soul Train." He would appear once again performing "Golden Years." Although liped, I would love to see how coked out Bowie is in those clips.
6. I have a live bootleg recording of Todd Rundgren that was recorded in London in 75 or 76 in which Vandross does the backing vocals on "Sons of 1984."
gordon
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 07:27 am: |
motownboy,
did you know that you are totally wrong on both accounts.
thank you.
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 08:37 am: |
Even if she didn't sing on Higher & Higher, could the "Helen" mentioned be Helen Way, whose singers supplied the vocal backups on Buddy Holly's (and Bobby Darin's) Early In The Morning..? Both songs were incidentally cut for Brunswick/Coral.
| By RD (63.188.32.212) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 09:53 am: |
Interesting comment on the background singing on "Higher and Higher."
2. Higher and higher Jackie Wilson '67
I would have chosen this soul / R & B classic as my #1, but for its one glaring shortcoming: the insipid, almost nauseating "white choir" in the background. Wilson's small record label Brunswick would have done well to hire some Motown singers () for the session. An unsurpassed vocal and wonderfully funky guitar, bass, drums and horns, as in Soul Man. This song can't fail to inspire and raise one's spirits. Too bad Jackie Wilson wasn't a songwriter. He was one of the greatest vocal stylists ever. My tastes in music are already evident, I fear :-).
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ384.HTM
| By dvdmike (68.72.108.131) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
The Helen Way Singers provided background vocals for Buddy Holly's "Early In The Morning" in 1958. One of the members of the Helen Way Singers was Theresa Merritt, best known for playing the title role in the '70's sitcom, "That's My Mama" and Aunt Em in the film version of "The Wiz."
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:22 am: |
Love hearing about the Jaynettes record "Sally Go 'Round the Roses," one of my favorites of that era.
Are we listening to the same "Higher and Higher"?
It was Jackie's earlier records like "Lonely Teardrops" that used those excruciatingly unhip Mitch Miller-ish white singers. The female voices on "Higher and Higher" are much more soulful, whatever color they may be.
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:23 am: |
RD;
Jackie and Alonzo Tucker wrote songs they never got credit for , his manager Nat Turnapol put his own name down for writer's credits, and you,I'm sure heard the stories about him.
S.S.
My favorite from that album was "Ï Don't Need You Around".
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:24 am: |
p.s. Stephanie, that's Detroit NEWS ...dunno that other paper you mentioned (laugh)
| By dvdmike (68.72.108.131) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:25 am: |
Billy Preston played the organ solo on Sam Cooke's 1963 hit "Little Red Rooster". The piano player was Ray Johnson, brother of tenor sax specialist Plas Johnson
The tenor sax work on Henry Mancini's "Pink Panther Theme" was by Plas Johnson
The tenor sax solo on Chuck Willis' 1958 hit, "C.C. Rider" was played by Gene Barge aka Daddy G, also the sax man on "A Night With Daddy G" by The Church Street Five and "Quarter To Three" by Gary U.S. Bonds, both from 1961
Ray Charles did the arrangement on Slim Harpo's "The Things I Used To Do" from 1953
The bass voice on Clyde McPhatter's 1958 hit, "A Lover's Question" was a guy named Nigel Hopkins. The song was written by Brook Benton, Clyde Otis and Jimmy Williams
When The Supremes recorded their first Motown single, "I Want A Guy", there were four members. The fourth was Barbara Martin, who left shortly after the session which was recorded either in December 1960 or January 1961.
The late Barbara Randolph, Motown recording artist and one-time Platter, also had a small role in the 1967 film, "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner." She played Isabel Sanford's niece, the young lady seen dancing to the delivery truck.
| By RD (63.188.32.212) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:42 am: |
Sue, I never made a comment about who's singing background on "Higher and Higher" I merely pasted a commentary that someone else made that I thought would be interesting. I even provided the link to the source of the pasted comment.
| By RD (63.188.32.212) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
Soul Sister the practice of others claiming songwriting credits for songs they didn't write has been going on for years, people like Alan Freed made it a second vocation, and some people he did it to, i.e. Harvey Fuqua and others followed suit, learning from the master. It still goes on today. I never say so and so wrote a song unless I'm absolutely sure, I always say the song is credited to...
Another common practice occur with producers with a lot of projects to do buying songs outright from writers and claiming the writer and publishing credit.
BTW Soul Sister the House of Blues is coming to Cleveland this Fall. It will be located in the old Woolworths Five an Dime on Euclid Avenue, the L-Shaped building that also has an entrance on 4th Street. They plan on booking 200 shows a year. You and Jimmy might be leaving town to soon. Also, 9th Street is being renamed Rock N Roll Blvd.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
Ah, upon closer reading I see, RD.
What do you think, though? That's a common beef about Jackie's early recordings, but I don't hear it on "Higher and Higher" ...
| By Marvel (65.42.85.96) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:58 am: |
The Background vocalist on "Higher and Higher " are none other than Marlene Barrow, Jackie Hicks and Pat Lewis the Andantes. They had been threatened by Motown that they should NEVER EVER lend there vocals to any other project outside of Motown. But per Marlene since Motown wasn't paying much, they had to do what they had to do. Louvain Demps was the only one who took heed to Gordy's warning and so she was left behind. Pat Lewis and Telma Hopkins were session singers on the same lable as Jackie Wilson so when the need came about they filled it. That is how Pat and Telma eventually ended up lending their vocals to some Motown songs along with the Andantes and often other female singers to create a fuller sound.
| By MEL&THENSOME (217.14.178.81) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
Billy Preston also
provided the organ licks on
Gloria Jones
great 45 of
"Heartbeat" and others.
Little Stevie Wonder
had Hamilton Bohannon on piano etc whilst over in the uk around 63/65>
On the flipside to the rare 45 on
Early Bird records of
"you can forget it" by
The Sisters Three
is another version to the superb 45 by
Ozz and the Sperlings track called
"can you qualify"
Theres a track being played on the northern soul scene by the brother of pop artist Peter Starstead
or however its spelled.
I havent heard it
so will not comment but hope its faster than Peters
"where do you go to my lovely"
regards
pop picker mel
| By RD (63.188.32.212) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:06 am: |
I always thought Wilson's early recordings were too orchestrated for my taste though his amazing vocals saved many of them. I always wanted to hear him record for a company like Stax, Fame Records or even Motown. Not to mention Jerry Wexler who would have done a fantastic job with Wilson, but as we know he was held to Brunswick Records years after he didn't want to be associated with the label.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
Yep it's a sad thing that he couldn't have been working for Stax, Atlantic or Motown while still in his artistic prime ...
Since the Funks were on the "Higher and Higher" session it wouldn't surprise me if it was the Andantes on there. Certainly that guy you quoted is wrong about the unsoulfulness of the backup.
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:12 am: |
RD;
Thanks for your input on the great american rip-offs. Believe me it happened way too offen to Jimmy in the 50's, so he doesn't hardly have any interest in writing anymore.
Thats great news about the House Of Blues coming here, now there will be a place to showcase alot of great acts every week! We'll see about the moving after we get back from L.A., we're taking it slow, it too depends if we find suitable digs.
Maybe one day we'll all run into each other at the "House Of Blues". Cool.......Jimmy & I, will definately be there for The Manhattans (Gerald & Blue), and Little Anthony if they appear and we are not on the road.
S.S.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:55 am: |
To "One Who Knows":
Regarding my comments about Dusty Springfield and "Sweet Charlie Babe" & "Something For Notihng", my source of information on this comes from the book "The Complete Dusty Springfield" by Paul Howes, plus the fact that I could sync up both Dusty's & MFSB's versions of "Something For Nothing" and it's the same backing track on both.
THANK YOU!!
| By Marvel (65.42.85.96) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |
The background singers on Higher and Higher are Marlene Barrow, Jackie Hicks and Pat Lewis. The Andantes were warned not to do any session work outside of Motown, but per Marlene since Motown wasn't pating much they "had to do what they had to do". Louvain Demps was the only Andante who took heed to the warning and stayed behind. Pat Lewis along with Telma Hopkins were session singers at the same company as Jackie Wilson so when Marlene and Jackie needed the extra voice Pat was there and in fact she and Telma joined the Andantes on quite a few Motown songs from 1966 till about 1970 or so. From what I understand various Andantes lended their vocals out quite a bit especially in the Chicago area so you might be hearing them mixed with other singers on several 60's hits.
| By Marvel (65.42.85.96) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 12:47 pm: |
Sorry for the double post.
| By John Lester (217.40.234.9) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 01:10 pm: |
In the days when the UK's Radio 2 used to feature a well known artist in their "Sounds Of the 60's" programme...Madeline Bell talked about being on Dusty's "What's It Gonna Be" (recorded in New York). She said it was a great session to be on as it included a whole host of big names such as Carole King, Valerie Simpson...
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 01:43 pm: |
motownboy,
the version of something for nothing by mfsb was recorded during the sessions that produced tsop
in the presence of don cornelius in 1973.
sweet charlie babe by dusty and jackie were two seperate recordings done several years apart.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:27 pm: |
One Who Knows -
As I mentioned, the book "The Complete Dusty Springfield" by Paul Howes (a great song-by-song reference on known tracks recorded by Dusty), page 127 ("Something For Nothing"), and page 137 ("Sweet Charlie Babe") is my source. What is your source?
Besides, in the case of "Something For Nothing", there are parts of the two versions that sync up perfectly side-by-side. I tried it out myself after reading about in the book.
As far as "Sweet Charlie Babe", and after reading the rest of the book, I would believe the author, Paul Howes over you any day. At least he has a real name.....(LOL)!
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:44 pm: |
motownboy,
how about believing one of the people associated with those records, capice??
were you there?? well, i was!!
book info is not always factual..hearing it straight from the horses mouth is, catch my drift??
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:49 pm: |
Yeah,
Which "horse" are you?
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:50 pm: |
its not horse.. try again!!
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:53 pm: |
Sincerely, if you want credibility, you gotta give us more than "one who knows." "Cos that and $3.55 will get you a Grande Carmel Frappuccino at Starbucks.......
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:56 pm: |
what really amazes me , is whensome of you read or hear crap which is not factual you believe it and when you have someone right here on sd who has lived and breathed every note you disagree and form your own opinions.
as i have stated , i was there, and i should know so relax and take a chill pill and enjoy the real facts...if not go eleswhere for lies, for the truth lies in the people who created the music..
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:57 pm: |
motownboy..GET A LIFE my man
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 02:59 pm: |
One who knows -
I am not amazed by you at all.....
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:02 pm: |
well well well...go somewhere else then and be amazed.
by the way, do you believe all that you read in the bible, HUH??
| By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:03 pm: |
One who knows, knows.
Books are often wrong; look at all the contradictory information from one book to another. Unfortunately publishers have people editing who don't really question anything, because they don't know the subject.
It can drive you mad, as a writer/researcher, but you just have to go to as many original sources as you can, and sift through it all.
Writing is the only craft that everybody thinks they can do.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:03 pm: |
LMAO - ROTFL !!!!!!!!!
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:20 pm: |
m.b., as i previously stated..get a life and go elsewhere for mis information, for here on s.d.we fortunately have people who have "been there , done that" so to speak, including myself.
there are some who form their own candy coated opinions and some who should not even be here.
so be glad that you found us and be glad that we only state the facts because we have been there on the set.
so you might as well toss your book in the dumpster, pal.
| By LostInSoul (172.133.231.235) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:25 pm: |
Most of the incorrect information in books came from the "sources" themselves, people who was "there." Original sources information has to checked and verified too.
| By one who knows (151.199.255.49) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:29 pm: |
hey lostin soul..
you need to get a life too!!!
i was there in the studio..period, like it or not.
| By LostInSoul (172.133.231.235) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 03:37 pm: |
BTW, "One Who Knows" as for your question: "do you believe everything in the Bible? Yes. Most religious people do--without question.
Nobody knows everything or is right all the time, I'm out of here.
| By MEL&THEN SOME9 (217.14.178.11) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 04:00 pm: |
My head just blew off
mel
| By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 04:11 pm: |
Welcome home Bobby.
| By John Lester (217.40.234.9) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 04:22 pm: |
U said it Ralph.....
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 04:59 pm: |
Lostinsoul posted: "Most of the incorrect information in books came from the "sources" themselves, people who was "there." Original sources information has to checked and verified too."
That's what I said, you have to sift through even first person accounts. But a lot of incorrect information in books comes from other books, or the Internet, and it just gets repeated and perpetuated. The further you get away from the original source, in the original place where it happened -- errors happen.
| By Treena (208.8.159.224) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 05:14 pm: |
Sue I am with you all the way on this one, books are not the true source and can be full of vicious wrongs!
To find the truth one must dig deep and ask those who were there and then try to put it together for themselves.
What can you do when so many people claim to have #been there"??????
| By David Meikle (62.252.128.6) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 05:26 pm: |
I have a strange example right now.
A guy who was a wonderful songwriter denying that some superb recordings are his.
All the evidence points to him but he says that "in all honesty" that they are not his.
Others would crawl on their knees!
The truth will never be told.
Always remember the story about how "send reinforcements we're going to advance" eventually became "send three and fourpence we're going to a dance"......by the time it got to the front line.
(three and fourpence is old UK currency)
David
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 05:52 pm: |
Did you know that the basic backing tracks for Marvin Gaye's songs "Come Get To This", "Distant Lover", and "Just To Keep You Satisfied" from his 1973 LP "Let's Get It On" were actually recorded in late 1970 with overdubs done in 1973?
| By Treena (208.8.159.193) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
motownboy where are you getting this info, you have my curiosity aroused!!!!! Please explain!
| By John Lester (217.40.234.9) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:04 pm: |
Just To Keep You Satisfied goes back even earlier.....and seems to have a history of it's own.......Mr W can do justice on that song.
However, here is my "did you know" contribution
Did you know that "Dark Side of the World", a song made famous by Diana Ross as the flip side to her first solo single and also recorded on Marvin Gaye, started a Motown life as a song called "Bring Back The Sunshine" recorded in September 1967 on (yeah, you guessed it) THE VELVELETTES. Lead singer Cal recalls...."yeah, they (being Nick and Val) were there in the studio but they were the new guys and they kept kind of quiet...but it WAS a real neat song. Now I know why it sounded familiar when I heard it later on..."
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:10 pm: |
Treena,
The Marvin Gaye info comes from the liner notes in the booklet of the recent 2CD Deluxe reissue of "Let's Get It On." Maybe you've seen it in the stores - here is a link to what it looks like at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005O02R/qid=1056838321/sr=1-25/ref=sr_1_25/002-2379390-6307251?v=glance&s=music
I don't post info like this unless I know it is from a credible source.....
| By Treena (208.8.159.193) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:23 pm: |
Mowtownboy, I have this 2Cd reissue and yes the liner notes say you are correct.
I am not questioning your post..honest! I am nobody, just an interested musician!
Thanks for your input!
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:26 pm: |
Treena -
Liner notes can be quite fascinating sources of information. I apologize if I came off a bit harsh! What instrument do you play???
| By Treena (208.8.159.193) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:41 pm: |
Motownboy, I mainly play Bass, 33 years now!
I play drums, guitar, and all sax and clarinets.
I own a studio in the bay area, so its good to know as many instruments as I can.......how about you???
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:44 pm: |
If I'm correct Marvin originally had The Originals in mind for that song and produced them on it first.
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 06:46 pm: |
Oops forgot to say I'm talking about "Just To Keep You Satisfied, I like both versions as well as Angie Bofill's.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 07:20 pm: |
Treena,
Wow, you could actually do an entire album by yourself!!
I used to play guitar, but that was long, long ago. I know play "Accounting Manager" (Yikes!) five days a week. However, a big part of my free time is spent on collecting music...
| By MotownForever (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 07:22 pm: |
SoulSister:
Actually, the first group Marvin cut "Just To Keep You Satisfied" on were the Monitors in 1968. The track is included on the deluxe 2-CD set, "Let's Get It On," that MotownBoy mentioned.
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 07:55 pm: |
Ok Thanks MotownForever. I still like it by The Originals.
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.15) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 08:02 pm: |
The Monitors were touring with Marvin Gaye around that time. I remember a show in Cleveland at Leo's Casino around 1968 when they opened for Marvin. Marvin also got them on the Upbeat Show, a bandstand clone, hosted by Don Webster. Gaye had lip synched a song and was talking with Don when he apologetically introduced the Monitors as a group who didn't get much backing. They lipped "Step By Step (Hand in Hand)", if memory serves me right.
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 08:57 pm: |
Yeah and Treena,
You have to be careful with books, the accuracy depends on the chops of the author.
Take "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" -- incredible research, but what I like best about it is that Allan S. can write rings around most "full-time" music writers. Amazing that someone can play music well AND write.
| By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 08:59 pm: |
The cool thing about the Funk Brothers is that so many of them ARE still with us, and so are the Motown producers like H-D-H and arrangers like Paul Riser, so when you gather all those sources together, you have a solid idea of what went on!
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 09:49 pm: |
Sue, I have even read contradicting information in the well know Motown books out even today. Barry Gordy's book contradicts SITSOM.....not the entire book but it along with film clips and interviews with Barry suggest that there were tracks coming out of LA in 1964 up to now? This is one reason I am confused about all this. Who do you believe, not you as a person but us as readers????
I asked Allan S. via email what he thought and he told me I would just have to trust him. I grew up in LA and so did my husband. I would think we kinda know our birth place and some of what went on.
I am a open minded person and I do not wish to be slammed for thinking out loud.......please???? I would love any suggestions on what else I can read to help me understand some of this.
I do not take everything I read or hear at face value, that is one reason I came to this site was to hear from the Detroit musicians/writers/engineers/producers and the people who grew up where this music began. I have no doubt that The Funk Brothers are the innovators of the Motown sound, however I feel that LA was involved but to what extent...and I have no answers that I am completely satisfied with yet...so maybe you can help me out...without arguing....in fact email me if you like I spoke with BassLand and he and I ended up arguing and I do not wish to repeat that situation with him or anyone else....I would love to discuss this as calm as possible.
RESPECT!!!!!!
Peace to all!
| By Jim G (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 09:55 pm: |
Motownboy, watch out for liner notes. I've seen many examples of mis-information in liner notes.
And books...Jesus, that's a real minefield. Sue's correct, the author's research & writing chops are important. There are a few people who spend a lot of time to confirm and then reconfirm facts before publishing. Even then, mistakes are made.
When you move into Soul or other recent history it's even trickier, in a way, because there are more firsthand sources. More information to sift through. It takes time. Eventually, you will absorb TONS of information and decide what is real and what is not.
One has to know what questions to ask and also one must put the information into cultural context--this is critical for the information to be meaningful.
Although she didn't mention it, Sue interviewed, then researched and wrote a very good book about Motown Women. And because she understands the cultural context, the information is correctly presented.
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:04 pm: |
Sue,
see how ignorant I am I didn't know you wrote a book on Motown Women, what is the title? I really want to read it and any others you might suggest.....please????
| By stephanie (64.63.221.99) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
I would imagine because Sue is so used to writing the facts that is why she presented her book (which was very good by the way) as factual printing and reporting. She did oral interviews and it was nice to read something from the actual people.
When you read a book by someone like Mary Wilson or Otis Williams or Martha Reeves its going to be from their viewpoint and its funny how people remember things different ways. To this day I read somewhere that Flo Ballard said she sang on Forever Came Today and Mary Wilson told her she didnt...LOL Anyway we cant remember every little thing and history is going to be rewritten somewhere if no one can remember every little nuance.
I have seen liner notes that lied about the age of the artist for publicity reasons in the 60s and so there you have it a lot of things were fabricated like birthdays and names regarding teen idols. Im glad some books are coming out on the music to tell the truth and the location of some of the recordings..
Stephanie
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:40 pm: |
I searched the archives and found a list of books that are favorites of the forum...... so I will be purchasing these right away...any other thoughts on books????
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:55 pm: |
Treena,
I keep Berry -- not Barry -- Gordy's book at my desk at work to refer to, when I'm dealing with Motown stuff. I've found nothing in there that contradicts SITSOM, sorry.
You're going to find it hard to press your C. Kaye agenda here, so I'd give it up. Ralph was one of the many who were there, he told you the score, give it up.
And no, I'm not interested in a personal email exchange about this.
Liner notes -- I don't think people set out to put bad information in liner notes, but again, it's the old "it's easy, anybody can be a writer" syndrome. If some of us sound prickly about this, that's because it's how we make our living, and that gives you a different attitude than if it's a hobby.
I did find wrong stuff in the liner notes of a group's compilation set when I was preparing a new set of liner notes. The same bad information popped up on a respected soul website -- one of the singers said they didn't make a fuss over the liner notes because it was too late, but he asked specifically that I correct this info, that had someone from outside the group singing on one of their hit songs -- and I made sure I did.
And since Jim G is plugging me I'll plug "BEFORE MOTOWN" (U-M Press) ...very worthwhile. Great chapter on the Funk Brothers and the great James Jamerson.
| By sunnyla (65.238.91.193) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 10:59 pm: |
Does anyone know who sang backround on Dusty Springfields UK hits? I had read somewhere where a group called The Echo's did. Who were they? I always thought it was The Breakaways?
| By sunnyla (65.238.91.193) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:00 pm: |
Does anyone know who backed up Dusty Springfield on her major UK hits? I thought I had read it was a group called The Echo's? I always thought it was The Breakaways?
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:07 pm: |
Thanks Sue for your input!
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:19 pm: |
Sorry for the typo...(Berry) and I have no agenda just questions that are not answered thats all!
| By Scratcher (65.150.228.64) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:30 pm: |
Let me guess Sue, was it Harvey Fuqua singing on the Spinners' "That's What Girls Are Made For?" I've read that many times and never thought it was true.
Some writers try to cover their own butts by mainly during interviews, then any incorrect information came from the interviewees mouth and not the interviewer. The only problem: if the interviewer doesn't know the subject well you get a bad interview full of hyperbole and fabrications told to the interviewer by the interviewee.
With groups it's best, if possible, to talk to more than one member, often the accounts are remarkably different. Most writers of biographies and liner notes simply gather info from different sources and put them together in their own style; seldom do some bother to try to reach the subjects for any first hand info or updates and a lot of what they find is errorneous. Often, firsthand info and updates are unavailable because those who would know, including the subject, are deceased.
People still write that Junior Walker's birth name is Autry Dewalt when his relatives say he was born Oscar Mixon. Junior may have made A. Dewalt his legal name but if you do some research you'll find it's not his birth name.
One reason for the lack of research is often pay. People tend to work up or down to the level of their compensation for doing a particular job.
However, except for historians, collectors and serious fans, the general public usually don't care. Many people don't read record labels or album covers except to see what songs are listed. Songwriters' credits! What's that?
You can stop 100 people in any major city in America and ask them to name either the original Miracles, the Four Tops, Superemes or Temptations and the vast majority couldn't name every member in any of the groups I mentioned, let alone have a clue as to who Steve Mancha is. And please don't quiz them on the less than superstar groups. Thus, any negative feedback for these errors, ommissions and untruths is miniscule.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:44 pm: |
I disagree -- no surprise. I think it's worse when a writer/researcher believes they know all there is to know about a subject.
And who cares if the "majority" doesn't pay attention to liner notes. As a writer, you do the best job you can because A. they're paying you and B. professional pride.
I've never heard the pay used as an excuse for poor liner notes.
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
Scratcher, this holds true even when interviewing witnesses to a car accident. You have 4 corners and on those four corners are four people who will give four completely different accounts of the accident.
Then you have the drivers who tell their story from their perspective......who is telling the truth???
I feel they all are....from their location.
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:58 pm: |
Scratcher, this holds true even when interviewing witnesses to a car accident. You have 4 corners and on those four corners are four people who will give four completely different accounts of the accident.
Then you have the drivers who tell their story from their perspective......who is telling the truth???
I feel they all are....from their location.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:18 am: |
sunnyla -
Are you from L.A.? If so, didn't we have gorgeous weather today!!
In the 1960s, Dusty Sringfield's back-up vocalists included (but not were not limited to) Madeline Bell, Lesley Duncan and Kiki Dee on a regular basis. She often sang back-up on some of their records. She also sang back-up for Elton John on several of his 1970s songs like "The Bitch Is Back" and "Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me." And I beleive you were right about the Echoes singing back-up for her in the 1960s as well.
Did you know that just before she died she received the OBE (Officer of the Order of the British Empire) from the Royal British Monarchy? This meant that she was then known as Dame Dusty Springfield, just as Elton John & Paul McCartney are now Sir Elton & Sir Paul......
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.184) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:23 am: |
Liner notes are more than just biographical info in the CD booklet. Liner notes are songwriters and publishers' credits, the time of the music, the producers, the arrangers, what musicians are playing on the tracks and any insights into the making or the theme of the CD. Liner notes should also tell you when the track was recorded, what studio and the date. With that the criteria, many liner note jobs fall into the poor to average category. If not that the writer doesn't feel he or she is compensated enough then why do so many do such a F upped job? Is it just plain incompetence? Most liner note writers don't have a clue as to what should be part of the liner notes' package.
And I really was talking more about biographies on Internet sites and articles and bios in some northern soul zines. At 3 to 6 cents a word you're not going to get a lot of research.
The Internet site you referred to but didn't name was much better when some of its writers were paid hourly for the time they spent. When that changed the quality changed. As for northern soul zines the pay is usually nothing but a copy of the magazine. Only the dedicated writers do a good job and every ns zine have one or two dedicated writers.
Writers/researchers who know their subject, particularly music or an artists catalogue, which the artist often doesn't know, do the best jobs because they know what questions to ask and they know when they're being bullshitted. If you don't know your subject well that subject can tell you anything. I've seen examples of this in many biographies and accounts where artists have told writers things about their career that simply were not true. It's like somebody doing a story on the O'Jays and all they know is from "Backstabbers" on.
It's the people who dole out the liners notes' jobs that don't care for the most part what is written as long as its engaging, covers some of the basis, and are done on time. Again, if this is not true, why do most liner notes suck? Again, liner notes were just one example I was mostly referring to biographical accounts on that Internet site you referred to but didn't name.
It's an old adage but a true one: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.184) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:35 am: |
Treena: you get it. Most biographies of groups came from the writer talking to one maybe two members of the group so you're getting the story from their perspectives. Sometimes this is the only way to get anything because the other members are either unavailable or won't talk to you. With some artists you don't bother after awhile because they never let their hair down and only tell you what they've been telling writers for years, the same old stock story. Others won't delve into personal issues outside of music at all. Some won't even tell you how many brothers and sisters they have, or if they have any, making personal touches impossible.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:39 am: |
Zzzzzz
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:47 am: |
LOL!
| By Treena (208.8.159.207) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:49 am: |
Scratcher, wow we do agree and I mean this in the most friendliest way. I hate files (stock) as an answer they kinda leave me wanting more.
I guess most people feel their private life is just that but the ones who sing with compassion and play with their heart sure get my attention, of course they need life experience to do that though......peace to you
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:55 am: |
Now that I've woken up -- whew that was a long post.
Do your liner notes suck, Scratcher?
Your point about the pay issue is sort of what I was saying about the gap between fans/collectors writing, and professional writers. Those publications are put together with a lot of love, some of the writers are top-notch, but I don't expect consistent pro quality. Why would you? They're fan magazines. And web sites don't really generate enough money to pay well.
But I've found liner note writing to pay well, actually -- or I wouldn't do it.
There's always going to be a collector who knows more about a particular subject than the writer. The essence of journalism is that the writer knows how to get to the best sources -- including collectors/experts -- sift through the information and synthesize it in an entertaining way.
| By Marv (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:56 am: |
Did you know that the female backing vocals on Wilson Picketts' "634-5789" were none other than Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles which included Cindy Birdsong at the time?
| By RD (63.188.32.45) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:02 am: |
Shawn Amos use to dole out the liner notes assignments for Rhino Records and believe me who you knew not what you know played a major part in getting assignments. You had to know somebody to know Shawn Amos. Rhino, however, have high standards and instruct writers well cause their liner notes are usually top notch. This can't be said for some other labels. I actually stopped buying CDs manufactured by Collectables Records because the liner notes were so sorry. Like Scratcher said in so many words, some so call liner note writers don't have a clue; and some labels don't either.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:08 am: |
Obviously, the difference between Rhino and "Collectables" is huge -- they can't even spell "collectibles" ...
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.2) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:17 am: |
RD, Leigh Hall was the interim when Shawn Amos left Rhino to become the Executive Director of Quincy Jones' Listen Up Foundation the summer of 2001. Don't know if LH is still doing the job though.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:23 am: |
Oh, and I've gotten a lot of good information from Ritchie's website, Scratcher.
I described it as a "respected soul site" because it is, and it's just one example of someone innocently picking up bad liner note information and inadvertantly passing it on.
| By motownboy (64.170.50.18) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:23 am: |
The one good thing about Collectables is that they have managed to get such a big catalogue of somewhat obscure reissues. It is just too bad that they come across like a cheap, second rate label when compared to Rhino....
| By Soul Sister (68.73.167.246) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:38 pm: |
Rhino has the BEST quality in the sound for re-issues, the rest is secondary, the sound has to be the most important thing. But yes Collectables does reissue rarer stuff more than any other US company, imports from England have been damn good.
| By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:06 pm: |
Yeah, say what you will, but without Collectables, I wouldn't have a collection on the Intrigues. They are good for that, I must admit!
| By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:25 pm: |
Sue
Just out of curiosity, what is the "bad liner note information" I have published? If there's something that's seriously at odds with the facts - I'll happily amend it :o)
| By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 02:47 pm: |
DID YOU KNOW THAT WE'VE COME TO THE END OF THIS THREAD,BYE BYE!