By Thommygirl_70 (152.163.252.68) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:53 pm:

Hi everyone. I just recently bought honey cone's complete hot wax recordings. I am thoroughly impressed I had only known them for 'Want Ads' and just decided on a whim(becuz i liked the song so much) to buy this. They were really, really good. My fav songs are: The Feeling's Gone, While You're Out Looking For Sugar, Want Ads, VIP and way too many more to list.
I have been trying to search for info on them but I have only found sparse amount of stuff online.I don't know if anyone has really mentioned them too much on the board becuz I have tried to do a search under this forum but my search only goes to 1 page and I have had problems accessing anything else.
I just have a couple of questions: I was wondering if anyone knew what Edna, Shellie and Carolyn were doing now? And also, I know their names, I have a few pictures of them from the cd and from what I have seen online *BUT* I do not know who is who,LOL! Can someone put a face to a name for me? There was one woman who had long dark hair and sometimes was photographed wearing a cow boy hat, another woman who sometimes wore blondish hair and another woman often had a short, dark, curly afro.
Thank you very much

By John Lester (81.132.36.130) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:19 pm:

I am really glad that you liked that Honey Cone album, not least because I was involved in its compilation! So looking at the back cover of the CD album "Soulful Sugar - The Complete Hot Wax Recordings"

Edna Wright (aka Sandy Wynns) is the blonde lady on the left wearing a red white and blue striped outfit.

In the middle is Shellie Clark and she is wearing black with a cowboy hat.

Carolyn Willis is on the right with the short curly afro hair.

Hope that helps.

By handsome (170.118.157.134) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:22 pm:

Hi Thommygirl.

I echo your sentiments about Honey Cone. The harmonies with Enda Wright on lead (blonde, also Darlene Love's younger sister) are great! I forgot all about one song they made, "The Day I Found Myself", I pumped up the volume on that one!
I'm unsure on the who's who of the other 2 girls, so I'll let the experts tell you, ha ha!

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:32 pm:

I would like to also thank you John Lester. The compilation was very well put together.

By Thommygirl_70 (152.163.252.68) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:46 pm:

Thank you John and Handsome for responding back. I now know who is who. I think Edna had an AMAZING voice. To me, it was very girly and feminine BUT *extremely* strong and soulful at the same time. And Handsome you're right, the harmonies were fantastic as well Wow, John Lester, you were involved in two of my favorite 2 disc cds. The Marvin/Tammi 'Complete duets' (of course!) and now Honey cone's 'SoulFul Sugar'. That's pretty cool. You've got good taste in music if I do say so myself

By John Lester (81.132.36.130) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 04:58 pm:

*blush*

However, I have to say it's always a team effort

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 05:17 pm:

Ooh Baby Baby is one of the tunes, where you hear great harmony!

By Scratcher (65.238.127.235) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 05:21 pm:

ThommyGirl check out "Ace In The Hole," my favorite Honeycone song.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

ThommyGirl:
I have to double-check my book on the girl groups but one of the members is married to Earth Wind & Fire's Verdine White (brother of founder Maurice). The Honey Cone did reunite briefly I believe in the 1980s or 1990s.

"V.I.P." is my favorite Honey Cone tune. It was the flip side of "Stick Up".

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 06:25 pm:

Funny KevGo, I liked Stick-Up. Edna's voice kinda sounds/reminds me of Scherrie Payne (Freda Payne's lil Sister). I had read somewhere, where both had recorded "Wants Ads" (I think that was the song), and Scherrie was listening to the playback, thinking it was her, until Edna did a lick (some vocal manipulation). At the point it was clear to Scherrie that it was Edna & that she & Edna voices sounded similiar.

By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 07:01 pm:

I really love their version of "Ooh Baby Baby" especially the funky mid-tempo touch they add to the middle of the song.

By Bradburger (172.142.255.226) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

Thommygirl, you're right, it really is a great album.

Had it for a couple of months now and am enjoying it.

I've always liked Edna Wright's voice. Seems kind of unique to me like Joe Stubbs and Steve Mancha's - something kind of different.

Most played tracks for me are "Take Me With You" (really like Edna's voice on this one),"Sunday Morning People" (great guitars -Dennis Coffey and co??), the long version of "Want Ad's"(really love the brass section during the middle break),"The Day I Found Myself" (long version - I just love that piano during the intro and the melody of the song)and of course "Stick Up" & "One Monkey".

I had no idea Mr Lester was involved in this project. I don't remeber seeing your name on the credits?? I'll have to take another look!

Anyway, really is worth adding to your collection.

I'll going to have to buy some more in this series!

Cheers

Paul

By John Lester (81.132.36.130) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 07:18 pm:

Paul

I am not always credited but it's no big shakes for me. These compilations are about the music and not me. I am happy to loan out my collection of vinyl for graphics, information or whatever.

There were 3 titles released in that little bunch - Freda Payne, Honey Cone and Parliament. Since then, there has been a further 3 from Chairmen of The Board, Laura Lee and Ruth Copeland.

If you don't have the previous sets, then these are nice compilations to have. However, if you have them from before......

I wouldn't have thought that there could be many more ways to re-package previously released product from Freda Payne and Chairmen of the Board. However, it will not surprise me if Castle/Sanctuary find one more! LOL

By Bradburger (172.142.255.226) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 07:30 pm:

Thanks for the info John.

I thought maybe my memory was going!

It's nice that there are people like you who are able to help these projects out in someway. As you say it's about the music.

From what I can remember there were quite a few compilations advertised in the booklet which caught my eye.

My CD collection could probably do with some more Hot Wax/Invictus material. I have a few of the late 80's HDH CD's, one a Hits Of Hot Wax & Invictus compliation and the other two which are Glass House & 100 Proof complitaions but I can't remeber what label they were on! I think it may have been Sequel.

I also have the 2CD Laura Lee set on Deepbeats which is a great. Keeping up with which labels produce the discs is a problem!

Cheers

Paul

By longgonelover (65.238.91.181) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 09:04 pm:

I LOVE The Honeycone CD! I was always a fan. It was hard getting the stuff for years on CD. This double CD did the trick! Some of the best liner notes I've read on a group! John Clemente's book on girl groups goes into depth about the group, too. They did reuinite in the early 90's for a show/tour, but, because of disagreements in the group....it was ditched. The publicity shot from a few years ago was fabulous. They looked younger than when they were in the top 10! Man, I wished things could have worked out. I'd love to see them in concert. Those girls could sing!

By Thommygirl_70 (64.12.97.7) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 09:10 pm:

I don't have much hotwax/invictus recordings either, unfortunately. I'm gonna have to build up my collection. I'm anxious to get Freda Payne's Unhooked Generation Complete Recordings next. Oh and scratcher, i love 'Ace in the hole' as well. I think these songs were very well-written and witty. Listening to them, I get caught up in the catchy lyrical content and those songs titles are something else!! 'Deaf, Dumb and Paralyzed' and 'One monkey don't stop no show' hehehehe that's cute.

By Vandelron (24.44.20.172) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:05 pm:

The Day I Found Myself still blows me away. What hot harmonies,and a great message and that HDH sound.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 08:42 am:

Hey John. Since you are here and you might know, I was wondering about the stereo/mono breakdown of some of the Invictus/Hot Wax stuff. I noticed that both the short and long versions of some of the songs (like Want Ads) are in stereo. Were there unique mono single mixes for those? Did they release stereo singles? If not, when did the short versions first become available in stereo?

That Soulful Sugar CD is fantastic. I also have and enjoy the 100 Proof (Aged in Soul) CD that combines both of their albums. They sound a lot better to me than the Fantasy compilation CDs released in the US in the early 90s, and are obviously much more comprehensive.

Regards,
Ken

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:39 am:

Carolyn Willis was also in Bob B. Soxx & the
Blue Jeans and pictured on the cover of the
original Phil Spector Christmas LP with
the group.

By Michael/cleoharvey (160.79.83.208) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:49 am:

John Lester:

I have the same compilation and was also surprised by the quality of some of the stuff we did not hear as hits. Like Vandelron my favorite of the Honeycone has always been "The Day that I Lost You was the Day I Found Myself." It is a fabulous compilation and one can only hope that the Honeycone might reunite at some point and do a couple of shows. At the time of Want Ads, Stick Up, One Money Don't Stop No Show (another favorite) etc it looked as though the group was going to rival the Supremes but I guess "not getting properly paid" and lack of record company respect, put the kibosh on that and the group broke up.

Question: Didn't Carolyn Willis do that stunning vocal on Seals and Crofts "Get Closer to Me?" The vocal steals the song away from Seals and Croft.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:59 am:

Ken:
I have the mono singles of "Want Ads" & "Stick Up". The mono mixes are quite good & punchy.

The first time I saw a stereo single of the Honey Cone was when Collectables reissued "Want Ads" and "Stick Up" on the same 45 - they used the longer version of "Want Ads" on the single.

As for the stereo single version of "Want Ads", I have the Buddah Records Boxed Set ("The Buddah Box") that was issued in 1993-94 (prior to RCA/BMG's purchase of the label) - this boxed set contained the stereo single mix of "Want Ads". I guess Essex Entertainment (Buddah's former owner prior to RCA) licensed it from the Holland Group. Then again,who knows?

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By John Lester (81.132.46.240) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:09 am:

Ken

It seems like the HDH set up was very much like that at Motown (although not organised so efficiently) and you know THAT story. Looking at the original 45's, you will be able to see various number references - what would correspond to the DM references at Motown. Clearly HDH also carried out lots of mixes and then decided on the best. I find it highly interesting to try to make sense of their sequencing and from time to time, it does follow a certain pattern. Numbers and things like that have always appealed to me.

The reason that the Castle/Sanctuary product is more comprehensive is cos people that were in love with the music were involved. When you have an interest, you are able to decide relatively easy what you need or don't need. The Fantasy compilers were looking at the product from a different angle, not necessarily aimed at the collector. Castle/Sanctuary are different in that have to maintain their reputation amongst serious collectors.

Like many others, I know that you are a keen follower on the "mono versus stereo" concept and I have to be honest and admit that it's guys like you that figure in my brain whenever I put forward any ideas on compilations. Guys like you would be amazed at the extent of the efforts that went into the sheer number of mixes. In the 70's, Hot and Invictus were mono mono mono. However, the UK was pushing and pushing for stereo. This is why the UK often got difference mixes to the US except where the UK also went with the mono mix. For example, there are now a number of versions of Westbound #9 but the original UK 45 was in stereo whereas the US had mono. Honey Cone's "Sugar" on UK HWX103 was an edited version of the stereo album mix - the US had a mono mix. UK INV 504 "Dangling On A String" was the stereo album mix, but the US had a special mono mix (you might want to compare those two and in particular watch the missing strings on the into to the US mono version). I would find this detail absolutely fascinating but I used to have to keep it to myself as everybody else thought I was "sixpence short of a shilling" - maybe I was and still am!! Wants Ads was issued originally both in the US and the UK in mono. It didn't mean a thing here..sadly.

As Michael pointed out, I can recall the time when the Honey Cone were serious rivals to the Supremes. At the same time, Freda Payne was rivalling Diana. Then just to confuse the situation, from out of nowhere came the Philly Explosion and we then had the 3 Degrees. Wow, wasn't we just the lucky ones...hee hee

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:28 am:

KevGo: I believe I read somewhere Shellie Clark was doing work with Verdine White. Could she be the one that's married to him?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:31 am:

John Lester:
As a former record retail manager (HMV USA/North America)I have to agree with you regarding the fine work Castle/Sanctuary have done with reissues. The remastering is superb and the research is excellent. I own a few Castle/Sanctuary CDs so I can attest.

As for the stereo thing, I had friends who were former radio DJs that owned quite a few albums by the Flaming Ember and Honey Cone so I was able to get stereo LP mixes of my favorite tunes (albeit on cassette!)so to see that C.S. has done their homework is wonderful.

As for the Honey Cone/Freda Payne/Three Degrees thang, to quote Detroit's own Mr. Excitement Jackie Wilson - "I loved them all!"

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:33 am:

Handsome:
Bingo! Shellie is Mrs. Verdine White.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Handsome (170.118.157.134) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:45 am:

KevGo:I think that was her in the audience when Verdine was on American Idol.

By TonyRussi (68.210.7.184) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 01:15 pm:

Shellie Clark had been an Ikette and a Raelet before Honey Cone, Edna Wright is one of the greatest vocalist of the 70's...she had done backgrounds for Phil Spector in the 60's as had Carolyn Willis.I had met Carolyn when she was a Shirelle in the late 80's & she was thrilled that my brother & I knew all them Honey Cone songs.I met Edna (with Darlene) when she & Darlene were doing backgrounds for Cher in an early 90's tour.Edna was really fun to talk to & we both agreed that "Innocent Til Proven Guilty" were our fave Honey Cone recordings.Its too bad Buddah and Capital were taking so much money off the top that HDH could not continue the labels as they had strong artists, writers, producers , muscians ect.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 01:26 pm:

Tony:
Is that why the Invictus/Hot Was label fell apart? I thought is was because distribution for smaller labels was shrinking to the point where it was either give up ownership (which is what Bang Records did in 1980 when Ilene Burns sold the label to Columbia Records) or just give up (which is what the majority of indies did). I know that Buddah handled Hot Wax & Capitol dist. Invictus but HDH moved both labels to Columbia/Epic for distribution around 1973.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.33) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:17 pm:

Kevin,
If the "money off the top" included fees for distribution, then you may both be saying the same thing. Some time around then is where the margins on singles became very slight.

Regards,
Ken

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

Ken:
Thanks so much for the info. Now I realize the hell indie labels went through in the early 1970s & why many of them faded so damned quickly from view.

There was a time when labels made more money from singles sales than albums. I know that changed around the early 1970s but I always thought that Invictus/Hot Wax fell apart because of the lack of hits they had as the 1970s progressed.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.238.172.114) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 04:45 pm:

Invictus/Hotwax had a lot of single hits but their albums didn't do much and their groups never connected on a personal level with consumers. Nobody knew who 100 Proof or Eighth Day were. Other than Freda Payne, Chairmen of the Board and Honey Cone you didn't see the acts on television that much either.

Holland,Dozier,Holland put a review of the acts together once and it was a colossal flop. They promoted their names ahead of the artists (Holland Dozier and Holland Presents...) and the average person didn't know who Holland, Dozier and Holland were.

I heard their demise was as Tony stated, Lamont Dozier came out and said as much once in an interview.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:03 pm:

Scratcher:
You're right about the albums - I only remember Freda's debut Invictus LP, Chairman's first LP and Honey Cone's "Soulful Tapestry" being the only albums that made any noise. I do remember seeing Freda Payne on American Bandstand (Dick Clark presented her with a Gold Record for "Band Of Gold") and the Honey Cone made two appearances on Bandstand that I recall.

The following singles were certified gold by the RIAA(meaning they sold at least a million copies) - "Band Of Gold" (Freda), "Give Me Just A Little More Time (COTB), "Want Ads" & "Stick Up" (Honey Cone), "She's Not Just Another Woman" (8th Day) and "Somebody's Been Sleeping" (100 Proof Aged In Soul).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Nightflight (65.238.154.39) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:44 pm:

Does anyone know if Honey Cone "toured"? Did they do clubs, theaters, etc?

By John Lester (81.132.46.240) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 06:48 pm:

Interestingly in the UK, it was much different

Band Of Gold was number one for about 6 weeks (she knocked off the Miracles' "Tears Of A Clown" from the pole position). Freda also hit with Deeper And Deeper, Bring The Boys Home (featuring Steve Mancha). You've Got To Love Somebody was a 45 top side and did well. Rock Me In The Cradle was also a top 20 hit and Freda did Top of the Pops with that song. "You Brought the Joy" went Northern!!!

And Chairmen of the Board..well..they did even better with Give Me Just A Little More Time, Dangling On A String, Pay To The Piper, Working On A Building Of Love, Elmo James, I'm On My Way To A Better Place, Finders Keepers - these were BIG hits. This is why Castle/Sanctuary were so keen to acquire the back catalogue.

By Scratcher (65.238.128.126) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 07:03 pm:

Chairmen of the Board's: "Pay to the Piper," "Everythings Tuesday," "Chairmen of the Board," "Dangling on a String" along with their million seller were big hits in the States too.

The Honey Cone had three or four good selling records. 100 Proof about four, Freda Payne three or four. Plus you had little hits by Glass House. Laura Lee had two or three nice size records, the biggest of her career. KevGo just listed the million sellers.

By TonyRussi (68.210.7.184) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 07:58 am:

Hey Kevin, I'll have to check out the small print on the later 45's as I don't recall the Columbia/Epic distribution.The records were all top knotch just harder to hear on radio and see in the stores as time went on.

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 09:49 am:

Carolyn Willis was one of Doris Jackson's Shirelles along with Gloria Jones of the
Blossoms.

By Davie Gordon (212.159.94.2) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:03 am:

Tony, you won't need to use a magnifying glass to
check when distribution of Invictus and Hot Wax
switched to Columbia. The numbering system for both labels changed.

The first Invictus single through Columbia was
# 1251 (the Capitol ones start with 9---)

Hot Wax / Columbia started at #9251

Davie

By John Lester (62.49.61.57) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:18 pm:

Davie

Some of us now need a magnifying glass to read our vinyl album covers. Thank goodness those old generic Motown "Greatest Hits" came in different colours. LOL!!

Orange - Marvelettes (mono),Green Marvelettes (stereo), Yellow-ish - Marvin, Grey - Mary Wells, Even that was not entirely fool-proof!!

By TonyRussi (68.210.7.184) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:27 pm:

Thanks Davie, I'm at work & it'll be late when I get home(& no computer) what were the releases when the distribution started with Columbia?Thanks.