By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 06:32 pm:| By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 06:32 pm: |
Hi Gang!
Earth Wind and Fire "In The Stone"
What a song! What an arrangement!
Killer driving rhythm section.
Great percussion.
Interesting string parts weaving around the whole tune.
Maurice White and David Foster collaboration.
Sounds like Jerry Hey horn parts.
GREAT MIXING TOO!
Boy the kids today are REALLY missing it!
Rufus with Chaka Kahn
"Once you get started"
Great opening tune for any show.
And Chaka wails and is STILL the best.
Rufus with John Robinson on drums really could carry home the groove, the beat, the funk!
Towards the end and into the LA Motown era:
Stevie Wonder "Do I Do"
Great arrangement
Great instrumental lines
Great horns and complimenting strings.
Today the kids get the JaRule version and it don't swing.... It just lays there.
There was a time between Motown and Rap where the music was really written, arranged and produced well.
What the hell happened ?
| By Eli (141.152.248.73) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 09:07 pm: |
Knuckleheads happened!!!
| By BB (198.81.26.231) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
The Jets happend ;)
| By stephanie (64.63.221.67) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
Adding to what Eli said Drum machines, happened and synthesizers used the wrong way happened (they dont use them like Stevie Wonder does) and non talent happened and young kids exposing themselves happened...
Stephanie
| By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:17 am: |
HEY JAY!!!...THE "EARTH WIND AND FIRE" PHENOMENON WAS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST OF ALL THE POST MOTOWN...NON EASTERN CITY BASED GROUPS!!!...THE WISPERS ALSO RECORDED SOME VERY "SLICK" MATERIAL!!!...UNFORTUNATLY ...AT LEAST IN RETROSPECT...MICHAEL JACKSON...BOTH HIS PERFORMANCE AND PERSONA...SO DOMINATED THAT SEGMENT OF THE RECORDING INDUSTRY...AND BEYOND...DURING THAT ERA...THAT PERHAPS THE UPSURGE IN POPULARITY OF HIP HOP AND RAP...WAS JUST ONE HUGE RELEASE VALVE...WAGED BY THE OVERSATURATED RECORD BUYING PUBLIC???...I DON'T KNOW...JUST A THEORY!!!...STU
| By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:25 am: |
BY THE WAY!!!...YOU CAN'T REALLY HAVE THIS CONVERSATION WITHOUT TOSSING RAY PARKER JR.'S HAT INTO THE RING...A NICE STRING OF HIT MATERIAL!!!...AND ALSO...DON'T FORGET "ROSE ROYCE"!!!...NORMAN WHITFIELD GOT A LOT OUT OF THEM ON THE "CAR WASH" PROJECT!!!...STU
| By Eli (141.152.248.73) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:49 am: |
Right on Steph!!
I believe that in a perfect world the current "crop of crap" would just self destruct along with ALL the people responsible for it and we would be able to "re program" and educate our young lost generation with the kind of real music that we all know and love.
It is time for new days and new ways and for each one to teach one.
I do not mean to preach on a "soap box" but enough is enough!!
| By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 02:31 am: |
I have posted elsewere in the past that the uncreative use of the Yamaha DX-7 was the death knell for great musicians and large ensemble type bands.Kool became Un-Kool,Fatback Band became Fatback and the same tired sounds were used for everything.I speak as a reformed sequencer that can't play a note live.
| By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 03:33 am: |
I must say that I totally agree with you all...and unfortunately, I REALLY got a sh*tty deal...you see, I'm 23 years old and COMPLETELY into the music from the 60's and 70's. But when I listen to it, I get ragged on by my peers. I try to give those "in the OLD days, they had REAL music..." speeches, but people just look at me real weird and say, "how the heck do YOU know???"
...LOL...I guess I'll just have to get me one of them darn TIME MACHINES to have some real fun :o)
| By Eli (141.152.248.73) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 03:33 am: |
Why was the DX 7 the death knell of music??
There were other keyboards that were overused as well such as the Roland D50 and the Prophet 5 as well as the Oberheim stuff heard on Van halen and the Pointer sisters, etc!!
| By soulboy (213.105.242.238) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 04:22 am: |
I agree with most of the above plus i would like to add the fact that the classic bass/guitar coupling is absent on most records these days, there is absolutely no type of bassline on some records!
| By InTooSoulMusic (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 06:22 am: |
I take it you guys never listen to contemporary urban gospel. I know you're talking about soul music, but urban gospel sounds like the soul music of yesterday on steriods. They use real guitars, basses, drums and saxes. You might find what you've been missing if you take a listen.
| By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 06:25 am: |
Good point Soulboy, I noticed the same thing...
Being a bassist (in training) myself, I am going to make it a point to bring the groove back. :o)
| By WaltBaby (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 07:05 am: |
I'll tell you what is really the death knell of yesterday's and today's music. All of these large conglomorates the are buying up all of the radio stations and then playing the same music on all of the stations all over the country. There used to be a time when a record could start regionally and then spread across the country. Now with just a few people calling all the shots, a lot of great music never sees the light of day.
| By Jim Feliciano in Detroit. (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:08 am: |
Hey, talkin' about the sounds of 'EARTH, WIND & FIRE'....
Anyone ever noticed those big 'brassy' horns heard being played thruout the flip 'B' side of their '45 record single-- and I'm talkin' about the *instrumetal* version of EW&F's rendition of, "LET'S GROOVE"?
In my opinion that instrumetal cut (B side) was the ultimate EW&F 'groove', much more 'funkier'(in my view) than the vocal version which they had produced, released as a record hit single in 1981, which in turn *peaked* at the #3 position, this according to Billboard charts.
If anyone on this forum has this record '45-- PLAY THE FLIP SIDE-- and you'll agree it is one ASS-KICKER in which you'll find yourself repeatedly playing it over... and over, and over again....
At least that is what had happened to me when I first heard that particular 'flip' side, and I had played it countless many more times thereafter besides!
| By Eli (141.151.56.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:48 am: |
Clear Channel and satellite radio are the ultimate death knell!!!
In toosoulmusic... I was and I am sure a lot of our forum members were raised on Gospel music.
It was the very foundation of our being.
| By stephanie (64.63.221.165) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
Hey Job you keep listening to the old stuff and hang around this joint and you will learn a lot.
I remember (and I dont buy this) people saying well each adult does not like its generations music but that is BS and Ill tell you why(Im 41 by the way)..... Everybody listened to the Beatles and james brown young and old and the Monkees and the Supremes and the Temptations. Even the woodstock stuff like Joe Cocker and the Mamas and Papas and Country Joe and the Fish. NOW there is such a dichotomy in the generation and the music no adult living would listen to this stuff and if they do they dont really go around telling anyone. I AM amazed at the teenagers and people in their twenties NOW that know about the groups we talk about. When I was 20 I knew there were a lot of people like me and KevGo who have the chart books and who listened to white and black artists and watched old reruns
of Shindig and Hullabaloo but I had no IDEA there were people NOW who are doing it. I run all over the Internet on weekends and when I have time an hour in theweek and see people who are in their 20s who are fans of the Shangri las and Tommy James and the Shondells and the Motown sound and the Sound of Philadelphia and its because their parents listened to it or their grandparents raised them on an oldies station........I KNOW THIS or they just like doing musical research and learned about it by default. You have some great teachers here enjoy the forum. I still think that radio has a place for the good stuff I really do I think some of the kids are sick of the hip hop myself..
Stephanie
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.19) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
Not to be argumentative but the Urban Gospel of today is nothing like the gospel music I was raised on. It's very close to soul music just more exciting. I've listened to Urban Gospel by accident thinking I'd tuned in a soul station only to find that it was a gospel program playing gospel music. Many who were involved in the funk bands of the '70s and eighties are involved in these recordings.
| By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:19 am: |
SCRATCHER!!!...YOU'RE RIGHT!!!...IT'S BEEN SAID THAT YOU CAN TAKE ANY MODERN SONG...AND REPLACE THE WORDS "MY BABY" WITH "MY LORD"...AND YOU HAVE AN INSTANT GOSPEL HIT!!!...STU
| By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:25 am: |
Mr.Eli,
The reason I single out the Yamaha DX-7 is beacause it was the first affordable keyboard with preset patches that everyone got lazy and only used the same sounds over and over.With the Oberheim,Sequencial Circuits(Prophet),Arp,and Moog,the analog envelopes lent themselves more to creativity as you had trouble getting the same sound more than once.The advent of midi gave things a even more automated sound and though we had sync and pulse tones before that,they slipped enough to have a almost human element.I know there is a "humanisation" feature on most sequencers now,but it once again has taken the real human out of the process.Modern electronic equipment and sequencers are a fantastic tool and when used creativly the results can be fantastic,a great way for a composer to sketch out a arrangement if they don't read,but take that same arrangement to live players and it breaths real life into it.I think Stevie Wonder was the last person I heard that used modern keyboards from the "Dream Machine" on in a truly creative way.Just my opinion though and likely to alter a little if a well respected guitarist says outherwise!LOL Don't want my fingers shut in a drawer by Paulie!
| By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:34 am: |
JoB,
Don't let your friends get to you.I too have come to this music 2nd hand.A easy way to have your friends gain some understanding is to throw together a tape or C.D. of all the original songs that have been sampled for the music they think is so hip and original.Anything from rap to rock now uses samples from Funk and Soul,whether it be just a snare hit,8 bars or a complete song.Your friends are just jelous that you are free thinking enough to find good music without MTV or the radio telling you what is "good".Repetition is the ultimate form of brainwashing and after even just 2 hours of TV or Radio it is hard not to walk away with a song or image stuck in your brain."They play it so much it must be good!"
I have always said from the time I started buying records that there's a big difference between good and popular.
| By Eli (141.151.56.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:40 am: |
Funky one..
Its all in the application and the person who is doing the "applying" and the sounds that you pick.
I have , among other things a Triton Studio that I use as my workstation and it serves me fine.
Scratcher.
You are right . The "Gospel" music of today is realy a misnomer.
It bears no resemblance to the traditional stuff that I listened to when I was coming up.
I think that Bebe and Cece Winans were one of the first acts to "cross over" into contemporary Gospel.
I think that Kirk Franklin is a sham along with some of thes other "Gospel" people who are nothing more than glorified hip hoppers.
I like Donnie Mc Clurkin and Yolanda Adams although she over sings at times.
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.19) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
Stu, if you have SpinnersPlus select Urban Gospel and listen to some of this music, it'll blow you away and make you as excited about music as when you were when a teenager. It's not just the substition of words anymore that went on in '70s and '80s contemporary gospel; Urban Gospel is paving new roads and is establishing itself as a force to be reckoned with.
| By Eli (141.151.56.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
If only the "urbanites" would take heed to the Word and quit flossin' and bling blingin'
and frontin,' maybe then.....
There is even a group called Gospel Gangstas....Pleeeeeaase!!!!!
| By Eli (141.151.56.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:50 am: |
As an addendum to my last post, let me say that in my opinion hypocracy is the number one culprit in the Gospel field, urban or otherwise and I have witnessed it first hand on MANY occasions.
| By Nish (170.224.224.38) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:54 am: |
I don't know if I know exactly what this subgenre of Urban Gospel is.
There is also no fantastic melody line in a lot of these songs. And not enough "sweetening" with brass and strings. Tracks today are very "spare" in that regard. I don't necessarily think "spare" is bad if it can still sound "warm" but a lot of these tracks just sound sterile and lifeless.
Thank God for the new releases by Betty Lavette, Leon Ware, Bunny Sigler, etc. for giving us young ones a modern taste of the classic sounds in light of this musical abyss we live in today.
| By Eli (141.151.56.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
Nish...You should be the human template for today's youth and I commend you for your stance on these matters.
Keep on keepin' on sis!!!
| By Nish (66.119.33.170) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 12:29 pm: |
Gee thanks! That means a WHOLE bunch coming from you! :-)
| By InToSoulMusic (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 01:30 pm: |
Nish, I don't think you have listen to any Urban Gospel. I hear strings, horns and everything. I can't believe some of you are knocking urban gospel but I should cause it follows the reasoning of some of you. If you hate urban or the soul music of today; you're going to hate urban gospel too because it's so different than what you're accustomed to.
| By Jay (24.55.210.61) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 02:13 pm: |
I'm glad I started this thread!
But......
It ain't because of the technology. The technology was always pushing the envelope of the day.
It's about the ABUSE of the technology !
EWF also used synthesizers and TONs of overdubs to create their unique highly-refined sound. They pushed state of the art to a new level at the time. But there was a very musical compositional concept.
Before polyphonic Synthesizers a guy named Gino Vanelli essentially orchestrated songs for his albums. One note at a time. Drums and percussion were real but everything else was keyboards.
I can only imagine how long that took!
The digital audio/music revolution has progressed at a remarkable rate.
The old recording studios used analog tape.
It progressed from 1 track to 2 track to 3 track to 4, 8,12, 24, 40, then it was time to lock/synchronize multiple machines together.
It was not uncommon on a Michael Jackson record to have multiple multitrack digital and analog machines strung up together down the hallway being lock to timecode.
FAST FORWARD TO TODAY:
You now have workstations... 120 track ProTools rigs. And every effect and plug-in that you could never have imagined.
The new Jennifer Lopez tune showcased NOT ONE real instrument! Even the guitar was this sampled thingy. Sterilization at its finest!!
The vocal was processed, autotuned and as dynamic as a piece of paper.
The DX7 was way overused.... however it started the manufactureres on a trail to build truly remarkable keyboards.
So now you have "World Music" a hopelessly sampled pile of crap that has a machine-created rhythm track. At the Gym I go to they play this stuff and kinda makes me want to rip the speakers off the wall..... But no one seems to be bothered except me!!
But it is the song, the performance, the arrangement, the proper use of the technology which SHOULD be netting us the best quality today!
I found Nora Jones to be quite bland but pleasant sounding. Then she steals the Grammys. Hmm... Maybe folks are getting tired of the overhyped, over-processed stuff?? I hope so !
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.169) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 02:16 pm: |
Eli, I actually was listening to urban gospel one night for nearly hour before I realized I was listening to gospel music. Some of the songs are long, 10 to 15 minutes, and whip you into a frenzy that's amazing.
| By Nish (66.119.33.135) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 05:15 pm: |
IntoSoulMusic - I'm not knocking this "urban gospel" thing, I merely stated I don't think I know what it is. If it's Fred Hammond and all that, I really can't stomach it, I'll takes mah Soul Stirrers and Five Blind Boys to give me the message, but that's just me!
| By Eli (151.197.63.224) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 05:17 pm: |
Hallelujah, Nish!!!
| By Linda Di. (66.67.194.109) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 05:51 pm: |
Speaking of old music and new music, yesterday I played The Jones Girls greatest hits CD ... over and over and over. And each time, I love it a little bit more. And I thought how blessed I am (we all are) for this love of good music. How blessed we are that we have this forum to interact with people like ourselves. As a young teenager, Motown was the center of my life. Soon, along came the sound of Philadelphia. And every major event in my life since, good and bad, can be remembered by a song at the time. We are blessed with music and each other!
| By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 06:03 pm: |
And I was also speaking of the abuse of technology.If used correctly(like Stevie or EWF) a beautiful thing.But when bands started chopping personel to put more money in their pocket and emulating them with the DX-7's patches,that's where my bitterness sneaks in.How many bands do you see these days with 5 or more INSTRUMENT playing MUSICIANS?How many studio greats have been replaced by modules?Besides John Williams,name the last movie SCORE you heard that was by a REAL orchestra?All these keyboards are based on two things synthisis or sampling one is a artificial imitation of a sound ,while the other is just incomplete pieces of a sound.I believe music is the most powerful thing in this world and that there are pure tones and notes that can unlock the mind,body and spirit.I don'
t mean to say that anything new is junk or anything using technology isn't art.I have been in both musical worlds and chose my prefrence of my own free will.I will just always look at true sounds as the key to set me free.Sorry to ramble,but I know most of you agree that music is the most important thing in your life.
| By Nish (170.224.224.134) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
Dag, I have shouts from the congregation goin' on!
My take on the synth stuff. When it is used as merely another instrument, I can dig it. Another great example of tasteful use of the music technology is Smokey Robinson's "Quiet Storm." The cool noises (I don't know the name of the machine that produced it) in that song add to the ambiance of the tune and also, he used it as merely another instrument. There is great bass by Wayne Tweed, great percussion, etc. The synth was an added extra sound, not a replacement for some other live instrument.
In more modern terms, I am not the biggest fan of electronica, but Bebel Gilberto's neo-bossa nova album "Tanto Tempo" (BUY BUY BUY!) does a great job of using some electronic stuff tastefully.
| By stephanie (64.63.221.112) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:05 pm: |
Nish
I agree with everything you said and Bobby Eli Iknow Im stepping on some sensitive subject matter here but you have said everything I have always wanted to say about the music of Kirk Franklin. He is just reaching a young gospel audience and disgusing it in the form of hip hip which I have no problem with but you can tell its not of the lord. Gangsta Gospel..LOL I liked one record that he did and I cant think of the name of it now but it reminded me of the Sounds of Blackness and it was beautiful. We NEVER heard our man Luther getting into that hip hop arena he went a little pop but even he didnt get artificial with it..
Stephanie
| By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 10:44 pm: |
A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL SIDE OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY...AND HOW TECHNOLOGY CHANGED THE INDUSTRY...WHICH IN FACT IT HAS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT...AND WAS A HUGE SLAP IN THE FACE TO ARRANGERS...PRODUCERS...AND MUSICIANS IN THE 80'S WHEN IT BECAME MORE AND MORE POPULAR!!!...BUT TECHNOLOGY REALLY JUST ALLOWED COST CUTTING AND SHORT CUTTING IN THE PRODUCTION PROCESS...SACRIFICING THE TRUE SOUND AND FEEL OF INSTRUMENTATION!!!...I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE EFFECT THIS HAD ON THE TYPE OF MUSIC THAT BECAME POPULAR AT THE TIME!!!...THAT COULD BE GENERATIONAL OR AS I SAID BEFORE...JUST A CONSUMER BURNOUT OF THE MUSIC OF THAT DAY (THANKS TO THE DOMINATION OF MICHAEL JACKSON)...OR ANY NUMBER AND COMBINATION OF THESE FACTORS!!!...STUBASS
| By JoB (204.42.12.2) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:27 am: |
Thanks guys, but don't worry, they won't ever get me to put down my Al Green or EW,F CD's!!! :o)
...a while ago my boyfriend threatened to break my Bill Wither's greatest hits CD in half if I kept playing it, but lately he's realized that there ain't no changin me...I'm a "60 year old woman in a 23 year old's body", as my friends say. He even made me an old school mix cd...with everything from Gino Vanelli's "For your Love" to Stevie Wonder's "Somethin bout your love" to Al Green's "For the good times"...I swear I think I'm in love...with that CD...
I also don't particularly care for Kirk Franklin's newer music, but that first CD he came out with was simply some great gospel music (most of it).
And synthesizers or no synthesizers, I can count on one hand the number of people (getting played on the radios, anyway) out there making REAL music..it's really sad the state of music today. Heaven help us :o) ....
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
Folks:
If I may chime in my two cents on the matter....
First of all, the folks who were tuned into the then-new technology (Yamaha DX-7, MIDI, etc) were MUSICIANS first, TECHNICIANS second. When Larry Dunn of EW&F played more synths it expanded his musical palate because he is an musician/composer first and foremost. Check out his Moog solo on EW&F's "Feelin' Blue" (from their 1974 LP "Open Our Eyes") - smooth melodic lines that can be played on any keyboard, only he chose the Moog synth. I produced a "pop ballad" in college using a DX-7, drum machine & saxophone played & sung by music students who were in a local band and the song came out pretty well (I guess it did because my professor gave the project an A and the song "Witch Of Love" by Jimmy and the Catch made it onto Central NY radio....but I digress).
A major reason why (among other reasons)why the music today sucks-bites-stinks-blows-whatever is because those who are - ahem - playing the instruments are TECHNICIANS first and MUSICIANS second. I'm sorry - someone "sampling" from another person's record is a decent "techinician" (and I speak as a former DJ/mixer and musician), but they are not a musician nor are they using any skills that a musician uses like melodies/harmonies/chord structures. It's all about beats and loops, not about creating musical pieces. EW&F creates musical pieces, not loops and beats (BTW - check out their latest CD "The Promise" and you'll hear the happy medium Maurice White & company created between the musicality and the technology. He also has his old colleagues Jerry Hey & the Emotions involved in the process).
On the subject of "Urban Gospel" may I say as a preacher's kid that to me Gospel is Gospel and this whole new marketing term is completely unneccesary. Also - and I agree with Scratcher on this one - the Gospel sounds of today (for the exception of an occasional Yolonda Adams or Donnie McKlurkin track) cannot - and do not - hold a candle to the sounds of years ago. Hey, the Rev. James Cleveland used real instruments when he recorded the classic "Peace Be Still" on Savoy Records in the 1950s (organ, drums and a choir singing to Glory On High) as did Edwin Hawkins on "Oh Happy Day" in 1969 (drums, piano, congas[!} and bass). If anything, Gospel music is the ROOT of soul/R&B so to see & hear real instruments should be no surprise.
We can debate all day on what has "ruined" today's music. I'd rather focus on makikng damn good music using the instruments we have with the technology that is out there. The passion, spirit, artistry and musicianship has to come from the individual. How does the individual develop these skills - exposure. I just heard a "demo reel" of unsigned artists from a management concern a colleague runs and let me tell you these young 'uns I heard are singing from their hearts & souls like the stuff I grew up with and the production showed a mature musicianship a la Norman Whitfield 1970! And these "new kids" range from a 17 year old high schooler who sounds like Marvin Gaye to a 25 year old woman who has a jazz studies degree and is putting it to work in her music.
Suggestion to all SD music vets - keep reaching out to these younger ones who are hungry to learn about REAL music. High schools (especially public schools) need "artists-in-residents" to help teach kids music. And please don't let the "almighty dollar" sway you - VOLUNTEER your time to pass on the knowledge. If it weren't for folks like Tom-Tom Washington, Bobby Eli, Carl Davis, Sonny Sanders, Marvin (The Artistics) Smith, Freddie Gorman and the dearly departed Barbara Acklin, David (C+C Music Factory) Cole and George "Paco" Patterson giving their time to pass on their knowledge and experience, I wouldn't be out here with you folks and I sure as hell wouldn't be in the industry busting my ass to create my own label and helping others run theirs.
That's it - sermon over.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Da Rev E. (141.151.61.175) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:46 pm: |
Amen Brother Goins, Amen!!!
| By B. Foster (209.219.207.3) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 01:10 pm: |
It seems that someone snuck noted plagiarist Ray Parker into this otherwise interesting discussion. For an alternative point of view of Mr. Parker's work, take a walk on the errggh side (spare yourself some misery and scroll directly to April 12 or so).
SoulfulDetroit.com FORUM: Archive - Beginning May 30, 2003: ERRGGH TO THE RESCUE..PART 2
| By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:07 pm: |
NO NEED TO SCROLL B. FOSTER!!!...YOU ARE CERTAINLY ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION...BUT IN MY ESTIMATION...RAY PARKER JR. IS A FINE GUITARIST...HIGHLY RESPECTED BY THOSE SIGNIFICANT PLAYERS IN THE LOS ANGELES RECORDING COMMUNITY...AS WELL AS A VERY POPULAR PERFORMER WITH HIS GROUP RAYDIO!!!...I THINK...IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECT...THAT THEY SOLD A WHOLE *BUNCH* OF RECORDS...HOPEFULLY NOT TO AN IGNORANT AND UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC!!!...FINALLY...BY ALL REPORTS FROM THOSE WHO KNOW HIM...RAY PARKER JR. IS A COMPLETE GENTLEMAN WITH A FOND REGARD TO THE MUSICAL TRADITIONS THAT CAME BEFORE HIM!!!...STU
| By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:32 pm: |
Uh oh, the popularity defense!
Ray was a good guitar player who made some pleasant but emphemeral pop ... I don't know if I'd put stuff like "Jack and Jill" in the pantheon of soul greats ...
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
Hey Gang:
Sue made a point as did Stubass regarding Ray Parker Jr. - great studio musician who made some pretty decent pop records on his own & with Raydio. Also I may add that as a session musician, he was one of the industry's most reliable since he was fifteen(!).
But can we get off the whole errrgh! thing with the plagarism crap. Granted, Ray took from Huey Lewis and paid the price, but hell - if we were to make a list of those who stole at least one riff from Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley's boogie beat and the tempos/grooves that came out of Hitsville this website would crash in a heartbeat. May I remind some that Led Zep ripped off Willie Dixon when they cut "Whole Lotta Love" and Dixon's estate won the case (royalties that are now supporting the Blues Heaven/Chess Records museum in Chicago).
Ray wasn't & isn't the only guilty party, gang. So let's not single out one unless we're ready to make the list of others.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:45 pm: |
STUBASS -
One of the records that Parker sold millions of was Ghostbusters, which he blatantly ripped off from "I Wanna New Drug". I'm glad to hear he's a nice guy.
| By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:57 pm: |
Well "pleasant but ephemeral" is more backhand than compliment, coming from me ...
| By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:49 pm: |
KevGo,
Thank you for more eloquently stating my thoughts in regards to technicians/musicians.That was exactly what I was trying to say.The music has to come first.With schools making cuts to music programs,it becomes more and more difficult to introduce children to the basics.
| By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
Kevin's post reminds me of a party game we used to play....
....where you take any 3 chord change (E-D-A for example as in "Gloria") and one basic patern and see how many songs you can come up with. Gee, "I Want A New Drug" seems to fit right in....
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 05:37 pm: |
Doug:
Get over it, pal. Rock & soul music have always evolved from song to song.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Lynn Bruce (68.41.107.30) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 07:55 am: |
You tell them Kevin. I enjoyed meeting you at the Cass cafe,I wish we would have had more time to talk.
Lynn
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
Lynn:
Likewise, my friend! I'll be back in Detroit after the July 4th weekend so maybe we can catch up with each other. I'll let you know when I'll be in town.
Regards,
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:28 am: |
TO ME RAY PARKER HAS A NICE SOUND,HIS LYRICS ARE AIMED AT ADULTS BUT NOT VULGAR,YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT HE SINGS AND HIS VOICE IS GOOD,A POOR MAN'S MARVIN GAYE!
| By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:09 pm: |
WELL STEVE S & B FOSTER!!!...I GUESS THAT JUSTICE WILL COME *FULL CIRCLE* WHEN LEN HANKS AND ZANE GREY SUE HUEY LEWIS FOR "RIPPING OFF" "I WANNA NEW DRUG" FROM *THEIR* 1977 "LTD" HIT..."BACK IN LOVE AGAIN"!!!...GIVE A LISTEN!!!...THOSE TWO OBJECTS ON THE SIDE'S OF *MY* HEAD AIN'T PAINTED ON!!!...STU(AUDITORIALLY YOURS)BASS
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.135) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:26 pm: |
No he didn't. R&B didn't say Marvin Gaye and Ray Parker Jr. in the same sentence did he? As a singer Ray Parker was a joke and not even comparable to Keith Sweat who at least has soul. "Jack and Jill," "Ghostbusters," "You Can't Change That" and his other silly songs were aimed at adults? Who...Betty and Barney Rubble?
| By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |
I SAID A POOR MAN'S MARVIN,SOME OF HIS LATER EFFORTS WERE A LOT BETTER THAN THE EARLY STUFF,IT'S JUST A MATTER OF OPINION![AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT]!
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 01:33 pm: |
R&B:
While I do dig some of Ray's stuff, if he's a poor man's Marvin Gaye I guess that makes guys like D-Town's Lee Rogers & Revilot's Darrell Banks some real rich mutha--------!
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 01:48 pm: |
WELL GUYS!!!...I SUPPOSE THAT IF ONE CHOOSES TO REDUCE MARVINS BRILLIANT CAREER TO AN ANALYSIS OF "HITCH HIKE"...OR MICHAEL JACKSONS ENTIRE CAREER TO "ROCKIN ROBIN"...OR SAMMY DAVIS JR'S MUSICAL LEGACY TO "CANDYMAN"...THEN I GUESS IT'S FAIR TO STRAP RAY PARKER WITH THE BURDEN OF "JACK & JILL"...BUT THEN AGAIN...BUBBLELISCHOUS HELPED PAY A LOT OF BILLS FOR MANY TALENTED POP ARTISTS!!!...AND R&B'S RIGHT..."YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT"!!!...STUBASS
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:00 pm: |
Hey Stu!
I wasn't knocking Ray in my post. If anything I admire the fact that he started so young in the industry (15 years old) and he was a seasoned pro by the time he graduated high school (while his classmates were probably still skateboarding in the park!).
If anyone checks out the Love Unlimited Orchestra's albums or the prolific work Stevie Wonder created in the 1970s, his name is right there (I personally like the guitar work he did on Stanley Turrentine's Pieces Of Dreams album in 1974).
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
Yeah but Ray's solo pop output is fair game, especially if someone's going to compare his singing with Marvin's.
Go beyond "Jack and Jill" ...to "You Can't Change That" etc. Where's the RPJr mother lode? Name the songs that better epitomize Ray's ouevre ...
Truth is, Ray's solo vocal style WAS light pop.
Oh and ... if it's popular and makes money, that means it's good? Huh??
| By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:25 pm: |
To me it's inoffensive and bland, like straight-to-Muzak stuff.
Totally apart from his guitar-playing, session abilities ...
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:41 pm: |
Hey Sue:
If I may reprint this post of mine:
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 01:33 pm:
R&B:
While I do dig some of Ray's stuff, if he's a poor man's Marvin Gaye I guess that makes guys like D-Town's Lee Rogers & Revilot's Darrell Banks some real rich mutha--------!
Kevin Goins - KevGo
Kinda shows ya where I stand, don't it?
Kevin Gonis - KevGo
| By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 03:31 pm: |
UNDERSTAND KEV!!!...THE GUY IS GOOD...AND IS A CLASS ACT TO BOOT...REGARDLESS OF CHEAP SHOTS AND JEALOUS INNUENDO!!!...ANYONE HAS THE RIGHT NOT TO LIKE A PATICULAR ARTIST...BUT AFTER ALL...RECORD SALES MUST HAVE *SOME* RELATIONSHIP TO POPULAR ACCEPTANCE...AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS VOLUME'S MORE THAN *US* SO CALLED EXPERTS...MAVENS AND AFFICIANADOS!!!...IF NOT...WE'D ALL HAVE MILLION SELLERS ON THE MARKET AND BE LIVING THE LIFE OF COMFORT AND LUXURY INSTEAD OF GOING TO OUR DAY JOBS!!!...STU(WOMEN *DO* NEED LOVE JUST LIKE WE DO")BASS
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 03:36 pm: |
Stu:
Agreed, my friend!
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By R&B (138.238.41.154) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:03 am: |
HEY GANG,I DIDN'T MEAN TO START A FIRESTORM,LET ME EXPLAIN MY STATEMENT,WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS MOOD MUSIC[WE KNOW HE'S NOT IN THE CLASS OF MARVIN VOCALLY]I'M NOT THAT CRAZY,BUT LET'S SAY YOU'RE GETTING READY FOR A NICE EVENING WITH SOMEONE SPECIAL NOW IF MARVIN IS THE MAIN MUSICAL CORSE FOR THE EVENING[SEXUAL HEALING..ECT]THEN ALL I'M SAYING IS IF YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE YOUR FAVORITE STATION ON THE RADIO AND RAY IS PLAYING[STAY THE NIGHT..ECT]KIND OF A APPETIZER BEFORE THE MAIN COURSE,I DON'T THINK IT WOULD RUIN THE MOOD.THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY A POOR MAN'S MARVIN![SO IS IT SAFE TO STICK MY HEAD OUT NOW?]
| By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:12 am: |
R&B:
Hey amigo! It's all good. I personally prefer using Marvin as my appetizer and Isaac Hayes' albums (starting with Hot Buttered Soul and ending with Black Moses) as the main course (the songs are longer and the dramatic arrangements stimulate the imagination, if you get the picture!).
Kevin Goins - KevGo
| By SteveS (209.219.207.3) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:32 pm: |
STUBASS,
You're right! Who am I to argue with millions of satisfied customers? I take back everything I said. I'll stick with the winners from now on. I'm gonna go put on some Britney Spears and pick up a copy of "Chicken Soup for the Soul", maybe rent a Sly Stallone flick, while I kill time waiting for Everyone Loves Raymond to come on.
Thanks for setting me straight.
| By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 12:36 pm: |
AHH!!!...STEVE S...NO LONGER THE "NONCONFORMIST"!!!...NAW...WHAT FUN WOULD THAT BE???...STU
| By Sue (63.85.105.20) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 04:15 pm: |
Yeah and don't forget your CD of "Jack and Jill" Steve ...It sold a ton!
| By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 09:26 pm: |
Sue....Ray Parker was not the vocalist on "Jack & Jill" or much of the Raydio output at all...it was primarily Jerry Knight, the Carmichael brothers, and later J.D. Nicholas (after his stint with Heatwave & prior to joining the Commodores). Ray didn't really attempt anything vocally until a bit later. BTW...Valorie Jones also sang background on the 1st Raydio LP.
| By Scratcher (65.238.127.18) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 09:47 pm: |
It's a stretch to even call Raydio and Ray Parker Jr. soul music.
| By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:52 pm: |
1Wicked -- um, thanks I'm not sure how this changes things. "Jack and Jill" is baaaaad.