By soulboy (80.0.250.231) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 01:45 pm: |
During the last twelve to eighteen months i have learned quite a lot on soulful detroit about how all these great records were actually recorded,but there is one question that has been bothering me lately and i have been too weary to ask,That particular question concerns how the vocalist would sing over a track. Did they simply read sheet music? Was anyone physically teaching them the actual song? Was it a hit or miss affair and did the vocalist interpret the finalised lyrics?
The reason i ask is, because if you listen to a lot of The motown records without vocals, it must have been quite difficult for vocalist to sing a part without getting confused by the instrumental patterns inside of the track, this is especially true of the bass lines because they did not usually conform to the melody line. Furthermore on some of these records were there any hidden instrumental patterns that were there just to guide to vocalist? (these would have probably been mixed out of the finsished record).
By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:16 pm: |
The very early stuff was "live" studio recordings,
meaning the vocalists & musicians together. Pre-
recording of the tracks began to happen and I am
sure the vocalists were very familiar with the
songs before going into the studio. Most of them
didn't read music anyway so a printed sheet with
musical notes wouldn't have mattered. They may
have used lyric sheets just incase they forgot
the words. Mary Wells told me she would rehearse
with Smokey at the piano--pick out a key she was
comfortable with and then go over and over the
song until she knew it. Diana once said that
if she became familiar with a song too fast she
would have a tendency to over sing it. In the
case of "My World Is Empty" she only had the
song three days before they recorded it as they
(I guess HDH) felt she was beginning to over sing
it. Demos were also recorded for the artists to
listen to so they could learn the songs. And,
on those demos, someone WAS singing. Maybe some
others have more information to offer.
By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
Singing to a rhythm track is just like singing to a live accompaniment. A vocalist is a musician whose voice is his/her instrument. If the vocalist has learned the melody and the lyrics, he or she can just add it to the recording, in the same way that, for example, a lead guitarist or sax player can play a solo over the other guys' rhythm, without being "distracted" by the notes the bass player has laid down. The writers/producers would make sure the singer/s knew the song well in advance of their adding a vocal to the track, sometimes by giving them a demo tape to listen to. While many non-singers can "sing-along" with a record, they often find it difficult to sing to just a rhythm track. Basically, it's down to a little bit of skill and experience. I know - I've done it, and I was never in danger of singing the bassline instead of the song!
By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:25 pm: |
SOULBOY: WHILE I'M NOT THE "EXPERT ON THIS...I HAVE WITNESSED ENOUGH VOCAL DUBBING SESSIONS TO PERHAPS GIVE YOU A BIT OF INSIGHT!!!...FIRST OF ALL...THE VOCALIST IS USUALLY ISOLATED IN A SMALL BOOTH TO SING THEIR PART. THEY GENERALLY WEAR A HEADSET...SO THAT THE ENGINEER CAN TRACK WHATEVER PART OF THE RHYTHM TRACK THE VOCALIST OR PRODUCER WANTS TO HEAR!!!...IF A VOCALIST READS MUSIC...A CHART MAY BE IN FRONT OF THEM...BUT MORE OFTEN...THE VOCALIST IS NOT READING THE MUSIC...BUT MAY HAVE A LYRIC CHART IN FRONT OF THEM!!!...PRODUCING A VOCAL TRACK CAN BECOME A TEDIOUS AFFAIR...DUE TO CONTINUAL "PUNCHES...THE PROCESS WHERE A VOCALIST MAY SING JUST A LINE OR TWO...WHICH THE ENGINEER DUBS INTO THE TRACK!!!...THAT WAY...THE ARTIST DOES NOT HAVE TO SING THE ENTIRE SONG THROUGH PERFECTLY...BUT DUB IN A LINE...VERSE...OR EVEN A COUPLE OF WORDS!!!...THE PRODUCER IS CONSTANTLY LISTENING FROM THE CONTROL ROOM...AND WILL STOP THE RECORDING AT ANY SPOT HE OR SHE SEES FIT...AND GIVES THE VOCALIST DIRECTION AS TO JUST HOW THE PRODUCER WANTS IT DONE!!!...THE SWEETENING (HORNS...STRINGS...ETC.) COME LATER!!!...HOPE I HELPED!!!...STUBASS
By Soul Sister (65.43.150.250) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:35 pm: |
Stubass; You do indeed have the correct answer. Seems the Angel Man does indeed know his stuff. I see why your the Angel Master of this forum(smile!).
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
OH MY GOD!!! Now Stu is ANGEL MASTER????
However he did give good info here. When I have produced songs on Teddie Morrow he will come into the studio cold. I'll give him the melody while we listen to the track and then he will go for it. We will generally do one line at a time. Upon completion it is generally so well done that you would think he wrote the song.
Stu...by the way...I'm putting guitars on tomorrow and then I'll be mixing what I told you I would send you. I'm extremely pleased with this one.
By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 02:57 pm: |
I took "soulboy"'s entry to be inquiring about
the Motown recordings of the '60s, not newer
recording methods of today. But all the info.
provided by Ralph, StubAss, & Richie IS as it
is.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:15 pm: |
Randi,
It was pretty much the same in the 60's.
Equipment may have changed somewhat but the methods haven't all that much.
By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:25 pm: |
Thanks!
By Ritchie (62.254.0.9) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:26 pm: |
Actually, I was describing the way we used to do lead vocal overdubs on eight track analog in the early seventies - pretty much the same as Hitsville did it throughout the sixties :o)
By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 03:33 pm: |
Thank you, too!
By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
THANKS RALPH & ALL: HEY...GLAD TO HEAR THAT YOU AND TEDDY ARE IN THE "GO" MODE...SO GO FOR IT!!!...TELL TEDDY THAT STUBASS SAYS HELLO!!!...STU
By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 06:07 pm: |
Ralph...I'm looking forward to hearing final product on Teddie as well !! He was just "off the hook" with the Funk Brothers...and that was just off of adrenalin !
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 09:19 pm: |
Wicked and Stu,
I'm doing my best to get Teddie hooked up with something. He really is as good as you might think. This current song we are completeing is a duet with Nancy Jones, a singer I produced a few years back. Kind of an interesting story. I did something a while back on the both of them together. She and Teddie had a few differences. It got so bad that I had to bring them in to the studio indvidually. Never even got that song finished. But they just sound so GOOD together. So now I'm hot on this song that I started kicking around last Christmas. I realized that it had to be Teddie and Nancy to make it work. I talked with them and told them to bury the past and get it on. And they did just that. They each stepped up to the plate and hit it out of the park. I have never heard either of them sound as good as the performance on this particular song. Hopefully I'll tie something up so that those of you that are interested can hear it.
By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 10:46 pm: |
SO RALPH: WHAT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY TELLING US... IS THAT YOUR PRODUCTION RESPONSIBILITIES ARE VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU DO HERE AT SOULFUL DETROIT???...HMMMMMMMMM...STUBASS
By soulboy (80.0.250.231) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 06:56 am: |
One of the reasons i asked the question is because i remember was reading one of the music magazines years ago(bassplayer??), and one of the bassists (i don't remember exactly who he was,except that he was an authority on bass) commented that he thought that the basslines on motown had been put down after the vocals, This turned out to be speculation rather than fact.
Allthough i can relate to why he said that, because the bass patterns never really clash with the vocal parts.perhaps this was a result of the superb arranging skills.
By Uptight (24.55.6.144) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:02 am: |
Randy, to add to your point:
Diana said in "The Motown Story" LP that the producers (HDH) wanted to keep a certain newness in her voice because, "A lot of times if I did a song too many times, I got too familiar with it, and I would oversing it. 'My World Is Empty Without You' is one of the ones [where] I came in town for, like, two days. I would go right into the session, record it, and they would go from there..."
I believe she was also commenting on the life of a busy professional entertainer. Diana's group was one of the top groups coming from Motown's camp, in demand everywhere. It is interesting to some of us non-entertainers how they can just come home, lay down a few new songs and hurry back on the road.
By Weldon A. Mc Dougal III (68.80.162.3) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:02 am: |
Hi Soulboy, I have been producing records since the fifitys, we used to record with the band and the singers together, but if anybody in the band or anybody in the group made a mistake,we would have to start over again, so when thay started 24 track recording, we would record the band first,that would save time and money,then you gave the track to the singers,after thay worked on the song at home, then you would record it,most of the time the band never knew who or what the song was, the reason to record this way, it saved money
WELDON
By soulboy (80.0.250.231) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:40 am: |
Like weldon says, i guess it was a simple matter of economics to record that fashion. Interestingly enough what uptight and randy mention about being over-familiar with a particular song may well be a contributing factor towards excellent the vocal performances of most motown artists. Especially when you consider that these days an artist would typically have weeks if not months to learn a song, there is no pressure to perform there! It's as if working to a tight schedule actually inspired the vocalists in such a way that they would have to give it their best shot!
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
Stu,
In one fashion or another it never ends does it?
By Soul Sister (65.43.150.250) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:32 am: |
Jimmy never likes to study a song or reherse alot, he prefers to go into the studio fresh, almost spontaneously and make the song his own in his own style & interpetation. I agree too on everything that was said on a song being overworked, it can sound stale. S.S.
By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:36 am: |
OK, let me see if I understand this.....
....a couple of folks mentioned that a singer would sing a phrase or two at a time, and a number of phrases would be put together to make a recording. Is this a recent trend, or was this done back in "the day"?
AND
in the view of the engineers in the crowd, does this tend to lead to a more sterile performance, as opposed to singing the song through in one shot?
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
I suppose it should be mentioned that one facet of a producer's job is to instill the excitement in whatever singer they may be working with. It can become somewhat of a psychological game. Kind of like a sports coach whipping up his team. Norman Whitfield was pretty good at this.
By Lynn Bruce (69.14.140.151) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:52 am: |
In 1960 or 61,I was in Newyork for some session work at Bell studios.On one of our days we weren't recording, I went there and watched Bobby Rydell record with about eighteen or more members of the Newyork philharmonic and studio musicians. They did it live with him singing behind a small screen. The money paid for session work that way was high,and usually the cost for the session was deducted from the artists royalty checks(another reason why the artist's rarely received what they should have)
As Weldon said,once they were able to,they recorded the band and singer at different times to save on costs.Although I would think the singer got a little more up singing with live musicians.
By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:08 am: |
GOOD MORNING DOUG!!!...TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION...OBVIOUSLY...WHEN AN ARTIST RECORDS "LIVE"...YOU ARE HEARING THE VOCALIST PERFORM AN ENTIRE COMPOSITION...AS WELL AS THAT TYPE OF RECORDING CAPTURING THE FEELING OF A LIVE *PERFORMANCE*...THUS CERTAIN VOCAL LINES MAY BE LESS THAN "PERFECT...BUT THE FEELING OF THE TOTAL PERFORMANCE COMES THROUGH!!!...WHEN A RECORD IS BEING STUDIO PRODUCED...OBVIOUSLY...THE PRODUCER WANT TO PUT HIS BEST FOOT FORWARD...TRYING TO IMAGINE HOW THIS RECORDING WILL SOUND WHEN IT HITS THE RADIO WAVES...AND WHO WOULDN'T WANT THE FINISHED PRODUCT TO SOUND AS "PERFECT AS POSSIBLE!!!..."PUNCHES" ARE DONE ON THE MUSIC TRACKS AS WELL...SO THAT ANY WRONG NOTES...OR JUST A SOUND THE PRODUCER DOESN'T LIKE CAN BE ELIMINATED FROM THE FINISHED PRODUCT!!!...SO YES...THERE IS A BIT OF A "STERILITY FACTOR THERE...BUT IF THE ENTIRE SONG WAS DONE NON-INTERRUPTED...JUST THINK ABOUT IT!!!...THERE WOULD SOON BE A THREAD ON THIS FORUM TOTALLY PICKING APART EVERY VOCAL MISCUE...WEAK OR CRACKING NOTE...AND CRITICIZING THE SINGER FOR SINGING OUT OF TUNE AT CERTAIN PARTS OF THE RECORDING!!!...ONE BYPRODUCT OF THIS RECORDING METHOD...IS THAT IT GIVES SOME SINGERS WHO MAY NOT HAVE THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF VOCAL TALENT...THE CHANCE TO LAY DOWN A RESPECTABLE TRACK...AND THIS STATEMENT WOULD APPLY TO MANY ARTISTS AND SONGS THAT SOME OF US LISTEN TO AND ENJOY!!!...STUBASS
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 11:08 am: |
Doug,
Naturally, the ideal would be for the singer to deliver a stellar performance in one take. but the real world rarely works that way. The same can be said for over-dubbing musician lead lines such as guitar solos etc. So, because of technology that has been available to us for many, many years we are able to " punch in " at places we want to improve. this could be as much as an entire verse or as little as one word. Again, a good producer and an experienced and enthusiastic singer or musician can maintain a level ofexcitement in the performance providing it is there in the first place. Today I have my favorite guitar player, Thom Ayes, coming in from San Fracisco for a Teddie Morrow session. As good as he is ( and he's a wizard ) there will always be some point where we will inevitably " punch " something in.
By Eli (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 04:23 pm: |
A great engineer with a positive attitude comes in handy as well.
It helps to have an engineer who is musical and expeditious as well.
Doug.."Comping" a vocal does not necessarily take the feel away.
Usualy the "comps" are made from complete vocal takes inclusive of "feel"
Sometimes there could have been a phrase that was "pitchy" or a section which had a better inflection and it was "comped" in to the master vocal.
I once produed a well known singer who had varied pitch problems allthough he was a great singer.
I devised a technique where I fed his signal to him in the phones pitched down two or three notches so he would hear himself even flatter forcing him to sing sharper.
I usually recorded four or five takes of each song times twelve songs.
When it came time to mix I set up two pitch correction devices, one pitched up and one pitched down, which were only Eventide 929's as this was the eighties, and proceeded to comp line by line raising or lowering the pitch wherever necessary for al twelve songs.
Needless to say it was gruelling and time consuming
Today with Pro Tols it would have been somewhat more expeditious, not much though..
By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:13 pm: |
Douglasm, WRT to your request for clarification: "Back in the day" techniques such as Eli mentioned may be used for providing the most perfect recording possible...but 99% of the time you were dealing with seasoned vets who had put in the work to be successful and were at the top of their game (usually). Today...you have far too many manufactured "stars". They have "The Look" and someone's hype machine or illegal $$$ behind them...but NO SKILLS (by comparison). That artist, and I use the term loosely, benefits from studio technology because they *couldn't* sing two consecutive lines without pitch (AND grammar)assistance. Then vs. now is a case of dependancy.
By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 08:19 pm: |
HEY WICKED!!!...WITH TODAYS HIGH TECH SOUND EFX...EVEN YOU OR I...ERR...WELL MAYBE EVEN YOU COULD SOUND GOOD...ALTHOUGH THE OLD "ECHO CHAMBER" OF THE 50'S AND 60'S MADE MANY A LOUSY SINGER A COMMERCIAL SUCCESS...AND YOU COULD TELL THE DIFFERENCE WHEN THEY SOUNDED *NOTHING* LIKE THEIR RECORDS ON LIVE PERFORMANCES!!!...STUBASS
By Soul Sister (65.43.150.250) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 10:33 pm: |
Damnnnnn Bobby You are a genius, you never cease to amaze me! S.S.
By Eli (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 06:59 am: |
Hi Jeanie..Just doing my job!!!!!
By Soul Sister (65.43.150.250) on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 09:49 am: |
Bobby; Looking foward to seeing those songs you wrote for Jimmy and by the way you do a damn good job!! Be well. As always love to you & Vonnie. It was good to talk with you guys yesterday. Your, Soul Sister