By boynextdoor (65.238.140.228) on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 11:01 pm:

I've read on this site where Blue Majic had other people do their backrounds on recordings? Why? What was up with the original singers in the group? Were they that bad? How did they ever duplicate the sound in live performances?

By bobo (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 12:09 am:

Do you mean Blue Magic?

By Eli (141.151.84.28) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 07:25 am:

A lot of the recordings in Philly used "professional" background singers because studio singing is an art and must beperfect to get the kind of results that you hear on those records. The blend must be impeccable and the notes must be in tune.
Those groups only performed live and sometimes with behind the curtain supplementation unbeknownst to the audience.

By boynextdoor (65.238.154.133) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 08:05 am:

I did mean Blue Magic. Oops.

By medusa9e (66.73.8.188) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 08:45 am:

well hey, what about MOTOWN? did they ever do the same for their back up sound?
I did hear onece that the Four Tops had stand In background in, I believe it was "Without The One You Love". (I heard it was just another Motown girl group). If they did, then they had to do what they had to do to get the sound they wanted...
..and the rest is HX (History).

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 09:11 am:

WITH THE TOPS IT WAS MORE THAN LIKELY THE ADANTES THAT YOU HEAR ON THE HIGH NOTES IN THE BACKGROUND.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 11:24 am:

The Andantes were used on several Motown recordings, especially the Four Tops' hits.

Another Motown group that sang backgrounds were the Originals.

I agree wholeheartedly with Bobby Eli about studio singing being an art that has to be nailed correctly. I just mixed some old funk tunes from a multi-track tape and the vocals were the absolute pits! Two singers were off key, one sounded like he was trying to outsing Eddie Kendricks AND Ted "Wizard" Mills (failing miserably if I may add)and two others were fair. The worst part was the vocals were cut on two tracks so I couldn't even isolate or drop out the bad ones. Believe me, I was so glad when my boss said,"Give up the ghost, Kev - just do an instrumental mix."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By boynextdoor (65.238.140.167) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:50 pm:

I can understand the need to get the perfect sound in the recording studio, but, what about when they went on the road. Wouldn't it sound different to the publics ears if they didn't have these other backround singers?

By Eli (151.197.219.91) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

Records and live performances are two different animals.
A record is intended as an embodiment of music to be used as a consumer medium for perpituity, therefore needing to be as polished as possible "by any means necessary" whereby a live performance just that, a "live performance" with its imperfections and spontaniety and associated nuances which make it "live" and a lot of times backing vocals are suplemented with studio performances as well.

By boynextdoor (65.238.6.171) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 03:16 pm:

This is very interesting. Does that mean that if we see a live show of a group, there could possibly be a recording going on in the backround to supplement the backround vocals? I didn't realize they did things like that. Call me naive or what....

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

Boynextdooor,

What a trusting soul you are, think Minni Vanilli.

Would any of the current crop of "stars" stoop so low ? .. I couldn't possibly answer a question
like that :-)

Davie

By Scratcher (65.132.79.214) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

Boynextdoor, I take it you haven't seen the Chi-lites live in the past 10 or so years. If you had, you would know that there were more voices than the three on stage. I haven't been backstage so I don't if there are singers in the wings or if a recorded tape is playing, I think the latter, cause the sound is perfect.

Many acts have others singing harmony with them, in full view, while they're on stage. Ray, Goodman & Brown has a guy right on stage with them and the O'Jays' usually have a band member singing harmonies with them.

People criticize newer artists like Janet Jackson for doing this but the older artists are guilty too.

By Eli (151.197.219.91) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

To assimilate the sound of a record you must augment the live performance to accomplish this, otherwise the sound will be weak, loose and thin.
Since the producer has taken the time to perfect his or her recording, in order to make it "sound like the record" augmentation is paramount.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 04:22 pm:

Scratcher:
I worked closely with the Chi-lites organization from 1995 to 1998 and attended almost a dozen of their concerts - both in theatres and outdoor venues. I can attest from being backstage and near the sound engineers that Marshall, Squirrel & Frank Reed (who sings Eugene's parts)NEVER used any pre-recorded tapes during these shows. I have seen their backup musicians such as their keyboardist, guitarist & bassist share the background vocals with the Chi-lites, but there was no pre-recorded tape used whatsoever.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.79.214) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 04:26 pm:

Ok, Kev, but I've seen them many times and the backing harmonies are too perfect to be real and coming from two guys, with one singing lead. The sound is the same every show. Something's going on there. I remember seeing them in the '60s and '70s and it was different.

I can't remember what group it was but at one show the tape or something got stuck or jammed.

By Scratcher (65.132.79.214) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 04:38 pm:

BTW Kev, that the Chi-lites somehow augument their stage vocals is not a criticism. Nobody complains about this, it makes for a nice show, the sound is good. But nobody in their right mind who have seen them think that two people can harmonize that full and perfectly all the time from show to show. I've seen Marshall and Red from time to time stop singing for a moment and the sound continued. Or, maybe they have some type of super microphones and amps these days.

Muhammad Ali once picked up on the Temptations using another voice (off stage) to supplement the Temptations. It was Richard Street doing Paul parts along with Paul.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 05:18 pm:

Scratcher:
I never saw your comments as a criticism. I'm going by what I've seen and what I know because I've attended many Chi-lites concerts over a three-year period. For example, at an outdoor concert they gave near the World Trade Center in 1997, they stopped singing "Have You Seen Her" at the bridge ("Why oh why did she have to leave & go away..") to let the audience carry the melody (and I was standing near the sound booth) - there was no pre-recorded tape they had to pause. At another concert (this time at the Apollo Theater, Spring 1997) Marshall & company were not having a good night and their vocals were way off - no pre-recorded tape was played to save them (they were so off Frank Reed took the lead on "Oh Girl" -which Squirrel usually sings - and sang the hell out of it; he saved the remainder of the set).
Again, I dig what you're saying - I'm just sharing what I know.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Greg C. (166.84.225.6) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 05:36 pm:

Blue Magic always sounded better to me on their studio recordings than live. "Three Ring Circus" and "Stringing Me Along" are absolutely stellar songs!
I saw Blue Magic perform those two songs in person and it was awful! Flat, painfully off key, and struggling. Must have caught them on a bad night. Engineering works wonders on a LOT of acts...

By 1Wicked (24.126.64.120) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 05:53 pm:

Even *star* musicians get doubled off-stage. Verdine White (of Earth, Wind, & Fire) has been heralded as one of the greatest bassists ever...but lately they have had a young man off-stage playing while Verdine fakes the Funk.

By boynextdoor (65.238.91.60) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 07:57 pm:

Well, come to think of it, I did see a video of the Three Degrees in the Netherlands and they had back up singers, which surprised me, as did the Diana Ross and The Supremes Return to Love Tour. It sounded more like the Morman Tabernacle Choir...hardly 3 women singing. I saw The Supremes in the 70's several times and they never needed that and sounded great!

By Scratcher (65.132.76.242) on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 08:42 pm:

Yep, Squirrel's been singing the lead on "Oh Girl," for years now, every since Eugene Record left and I think it's a crying shame. They should definitely let Frank Reed or the other guy they use to use sing the song. Squirrel is excellent for backing fills but I've never cared for his leads.

You have your opinion about the Chi-lites and I have mine. I don't know what they're doing but they're doing something to make their sound fuller. It's obvious with them because only two people sing harmony while the lead leads; ditto for Ray, Goodman & Brown, I don't know what it is but somehow they enhance their voices. I saw them when Red and Eugene was with them. They had three singing harmony then and didn't sound half as good or as full as they do now.

It's really evident when you see them over and over. Their act, like many soul groups with some exceptions, rarely changes. If you saw them seven years ago and see them now, they might have added or deleted one song, but the banter, the routines, etc. will be the same.

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 09:37 am:

I WENT TO THE WESTBURY MUSIC FAIR, IN N.Y. A MONTH AGO, SAW THE STYLISTICS, DELPHONICS AND CHILITES. WELL THE SOUND OF THE CHILITES WERE UNBELIEVABLE, NO DAMN WAY IT WAS JUST THE THREE GUYS AND ONE FEMALE I SAW ON STAGE, THEY SOUNDED LIKE THE MORMON TABERNACLE CHOIR FOR GOD'S SAKE, THE SOUND SNAPPED BY HEAD BACK I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT I WAS HEARING, IT WAS OBVIOUS TO "EVERYONE" THEY ENHANCED THEIR VOCALS IN SOME WAY, IF THEY WEREN'T DOING IT BEFORE THEY'RE DOING IT NOW.

By Scratcher (65.132.76.74) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 10:12 am:

Like I said Dell, I don't what they're (the Chi-lites) are doing but they're doing something to enhance their voices. Maybe some of the techs can chime in on this one. It because even more obvious the more you see them--cause everything is the same note for note. Ray, Goodman & Brown use some type of enhancement too but nowhere near the level the Chi-lites do. And to repeat, it's no knock on the Chi-lites, I wish some other groups would employ what they use.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 10:44 am:

Scratcher:
Another topic - ten years ago I went to one of those "Summerfest" concerts here in NYC (Madison Square Garden) where vocal groups such as Jade, Shai, Silk and SWV were performing (I know what y'all are thinking - "where are they now"..). Anyway, I was near the sound booth when I saw the engineers gear up this device and one of the technicians on stage test the mics - his voice came out of the amps & speakers in three-part harmony!
As a result, I later found that there are devices that can electronically "harmonize" a voice. That said, if my compadres from the Windy City are using this, then I wouldn't be surprised. But, like I said, there was no tape machine in the engineer's booth or backstage used to "augment" the vocals.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 10:48 am:

Scratcher:
RE: Oh Girl - At that particular show when Frank took the lead on "Oh Girl" and saved everyone's tail(s) onstage, Marshall did admit that Frank sounded fantastic on the song. I agree with you - I like Squirrel but his voice isn't a lead voice (although he sounds decent on their version of "Inner City Blues") and Frank should be on lead for "Oh Girl"

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By fayette (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 08:36 am:

i've seen blue magic perform quite a few
times, i've never heard anything extra
in the background vocals, the band needed
a little something to enhance them,because
it sounded as though it was staggering(musically).the
only thing is i think maybe when you buy
a record,cd,etc.you expect to see that group,
not just say,ted mills and company,or
russell thompson and company.make you wonder
if the group not good with background vocals,
then what's their purpose.just my opinion

By Scratcher (65.134.147.142) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 09:30 am:

Huh!!! Who said anything about Blue Magic enhancing their vocals live? We were talking about the CHI-LITES who definitely do despite what they may tell some people. It's very obvious, they sound like 15 people harmonizing live. Go to see them live sometimes and get blown away by the sound.

By fayette (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 09:36 am:

scratcher scroll up,someone was talking about
blue magic's live appearances. wasn't you

By Scratcher (65.132.77.192) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 09:49 am:

Ok, they were referring to rather Blue Magic performed their backing vocals on records. I can't say, don't know anything about that. The vocal enhancement during live performances was another topic altogether.