By skip (12.2.196.17) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:48 pm:

Mr.Eli with William Hart being such a good song writer and his voice as great as it is.why didn't the Delfonics go on to greater things. Thank you Skip.

By TonyRussi (68.18.33.86) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

Skip if we had the answer alot of us would be rich beyond our wildest dreams.Mr. Eli might know William Harts particular situation.I always liked the Delfonics & saw them in person in late 60's.I loved their clothes & they were very classy on stage.

By Eli (151.197.33.192) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:47 pm:

I believe had they been on a "propper" label they would have been a lot bigger.

Bell records , later Arista distributed the label and had Clive had his say in the matter, he would have taken full control and things would have been different and I believe that if they had the right song today, they still have some more hits in them , as well as Blue Magic.

By skip (12.2.196.17) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:45 am:

Mr.Eli What are the chances of a Delfonics vs Blue Magic Cd like the Dells & Dramatics did back in the late 70s I think that would be nice. Thanks Again. Skip

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:35 pm:

HI SKIP, AS A FAN OF BOTH GROUPS I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT HAPPEN, BUT FROM A BUSINESS STAND POINT IT MAKES LITTLE SENSE, WHAT WOULD BE THE MARKET FOR SUCH A CD, SURE YOU AND I WOULD BUY IT AND NO DOUBT COUNTLESS OTHERS, BUT I DON'T SEE ANY LABEL THAT WOULD SPEND THE PROPER MONEY TO GET THE CD DONE WITH THE PRODUCTION LEVEL THAT THESE 2 GROUPS DESERVE. AS YOU KNOW THERE ARE MANY CD'S OUT HERE BY GROUPS OF THAT ERA, WHERE THE SOUND AND PRODUCTION QUALITY ISN'T GOOD AND OR THE WRITING SUCKS AND OR YOU CAN'T FIND THE CD IN ANY RECORD STORE, BECAUSE THE MAJOR OUTLETS DON'T DEEM IT WORTH CARRYING DUE TO THE SMALL AUDIENCE THAT THEIR MUSIC APPEALS TO, THERE'S NO PROMOTION, NO WEBSITE TO ORDER FROM, YOU JUST HAVE TO GET LUCKY TO FIND IT, IT'S A SHAME BUT THEIR ARE SO MANY GROUPS WHO MADE SO MANY GREAT ALBUMS THAT ARE NOT OUT THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE LABELED NON-COMMERCIAL.

By Eli (141.151.16.2) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 03:01 pm:

Out of all the '70's acts out there , I believe that Blue Magic and the Delfonics have a shot and there are labels out there who do these sort of deals, in fact one of the "Majors" has a subsidiary in L.A. that is doing just that so dont count them out just yet.
I would be honored to be the producer of such an album!!!

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 04:39 pm:

TO BOBBY ELI: YOUR THE ONLY PRODUCER I'D WANT TO SEE DO IT, MY COMMENTS WERE NOT TO BELITTLE THOSE GROUPS BUT JUST BY OPINION ON HOW A LARGE PORTION OF THE INDUSTRY LOOKS UPON THEM. TRULY TALENTED ACTS SEEM TO BE OVERLOOKED TODAY IF THEY DON'T FIT THE "PROFILE", AND AGE SEEMS TO BE A BIG PART OF THAT PROFILE. DO YOU FORESEE THE RECORD COMPANIES, PUTTING ASIDE YOUTH AND FASHION FOR ACTUAL TALENT. I HOPE SO.

By Eli (141.151.16.2) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 05:43 pm:

It is a shame that ageism is so pervasive , but it is a fact in our society, and in my opinion I think that real talent and a definitive "stamp" are what is most important.
I know that Jehryl Busby, formerly of Motown and before that MCA, is running "Def Jam Classic" which will cater to "seasoned artists" and Patti Labelle is the first signing and there was a featured segment in the April 26 th issue of Billboard that dealt exclusively with that demographic so let us all hope that there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

By PhillyGroove (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:25 pm:

I wonder why there aren't more "niche" cds produced, even in a limited run. A Bobby Eli produced Blue Magic vs. Delfonics cd would do well. I'd also like to see these two acts on the same stage in the 70's Soul Jam.

By ted cogswell (69.3.163.247) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:06 pm:

In blues and jazz, performers keep putting out records deep into their autumn years, but the same cannot be said about soul/r&b artists,... any idea why?

By Scratcher (65.132.78.174) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:47 pm:

Soul and R&B artists are still putting out CDs you just don't know about them unless you do some serious searching. You won't find them at Best Buy. The stuff is on smaller or self owned labels where before they had hits on major labels. Many jazz and blues performers were always on small labels...

Ray, Goodman & Brown, the Delphonics (Wilbert Hart's group), Blue Magic, the Main Ingredient, and some others have all put out CDs in the last year.

By ted cogswell (69.3.163.247) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 01:54 am:

But how many of those face at least one of the drawbacks that DELL laid out above?

I was incorrect to imply that older soul artists weren't recording at all, but I regret that they are (for the most part) only doing so at the fringes of the music industry. John Lee Hooker was putting out records on major labels in the later years of his life, B.B. King is always making high-profile appearances, and even the indies on the blues scene seem to do a better job of finding their audience. There's a whole blues festival circut that keeps many of those guys working all year- soul artists just don't have that.

By Beebopman (67.37.78.60) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:15 pm:

I'm a B.Eli fan. I'd buy the CD no matter who was singing as long as Eli produced it! B.Eli you are super bad. I can't believe anyone in the music industry where it's about the music and the artistry, age would ever be a factor. The record labels are missing a golden opportunity not addressing the "niche" market.

Beebopman

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 10:48 am:

Ted cogswell, Thank you for seeing my point, and to beebopman, whats a major part of the problem is that that the majority of cd buyers are young kids and young adults, if more of us over the age of 35 would buy more music, you'd be surprise at how the music scene would change, it's all about money, and it's getting worse, record companies are not signing acts much anymore unless they foresee you being a bonafide superstar in the making, the production companies that are popping up all over the place are the ones that are striking deals with those companies, and they are going straight for the quick money, hip-hop and rap artist, who cater to the the young set, and in that crowd my man, your look is much more important than your talent. There is so much technology today, who really needs talent.......when you fit the "PROFILE" The engineers can do the rest.

By Scratcher (65.133.219.186) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:12 am:

Ted, old soul artists, mostly groups and funk bands, have traveling soul shows that hit the major markets and play at larger venues than the majority of the blues artists you speak of. These same acts, and many artists not on these soul shows, also do a lot of festivals around the country. Some of these shows and revues were discussed by others on another thread sometime ago.

What is sorely missing, however, is the small 250 to 600 seat night clubs that showcased these artists complete shows in the '60s. On the revues, where they appear with four or five other acts, the non headliners sing only a few songs.

B. B. King is the exception. Most blues artists are a far cry commercially from B. B.

Record company go by record sales. Most new CDs--in the past 8 or so years--by groups like the O'Jays, even Gerald Levert, and others haven't done well. The Isley Brothers is one of the few old soul acts to still have a deal with a major label that affords them decent promotion.

A lot of the self produced CDs by groups like the Delphonics and Ray, Goodman & Brown didn't start out that way; most were shopped to majors and turned down. Then, on the otherhand, you have oldie artists who were so ripped off by the majors they would never sign with one again.

What people forget is that many of the hip-hop artists arrived at major companies through production companies or small labels that provided much of the initial financial backing. It cost a half a million to a million dollars to promote a single these days in hopes that it will spur massive CD sales. Indie promo men charge $5,000 for every major market station that they get a song added. Nobody is going to spend that type of money on a nostalgia or niche artist.

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:27 am:

To Scratcher: True but extremely sad, but you know the major companies do suppy money to these production companies to find the hip-hop and rap artist, they just don't want to sign them up themselves, they want the profits from sales but not the headache of shootings and such.

By Scratcher (65.133.219.186) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:32 am:

Dell, The FBI is discovering that some money has come from drug sales. Check the New York newspapers for some revealing recent articles involving companies associated with Ashanti and 50 Cents.

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 11:56 am:

I LIVE IN NEW YORK, I KNOW THE DEAL....TRUST ME THIS IS NOTHING NEW, SOMEBODY JUST FINALLY SCREWED UP AND GOT PEEPED

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 12:00 pm:

Folks:
To answer the question regarding legendary artists and labels, Fantasy Records have reactivated the Stax/Volt label for the very purpose of recording these legends and releasing new material. The Delfonics & Brenda Holloway have both released CDs in recent years under the Stax/Volt/Fantasy banner.

The problem is that radio for the most part do not play these recordings because in the minds of the PDs and consultants (who I would like to take outside to a shed and....whoops, let me stop)these artists would not attract the audience needed for radio to get their ratings. Of course to us this is bulls--t because I've heard Tom Joyner months ago play the Delfonics' updated version of "Break Your Promise" from their Stax/Fantasy album at least three times, which prompted me to go buy the CD.

Another problem is the good ol' marketing. While I applaud the efforts of labels like Fantasy (which is run by Phil Jones, who "in another life" was Barney Ales' right-hand man at Motown), the marketing was probably limited to music collector's magazines & didn't expand to things like Essence Magazine, BET or VH1.

Note to Dell & Ted - the industry knows damn well that adults above the age of 32 buy more music than the kids and is slowly coming to grips with that reality. The RIAA published figures from 2002 showing that adults are buying more music & what they're buying ain't rap/hip-hop or speed metal. They're buying Norah Jones, Vivian Green, Brian McKnight, Rod Stewart (new album of standards), Luther Vandross, Diana Krall, Dixie Chicks, Tony Bennett, k.d. lang - the list goes on. Now the majors are scrambling because they know if this audience ain't being served, they will go elsewhere for their entertainment (DVD's are getting cheaper, aren't they?).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.133.219.186) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 12:21 pm:

With all due respect to Fantasy Records they're not a "major" label. They've never spent the type of money on promotion that other labels have and consequently have never had many big hits; they try to sell via the catalogue. Please name me some Pop Top 40's somebody? Fantasy albums by Martha Reeves, the Dramatics, the Originals, and others sunk without a trace. There's also a problem with accountabilty, or lack thereof, maybe Fred or one of AREC's attorneys can speak on this. Stax artists like the Mad Lads have told me and others that they don't receive a dime from Fantasy who purchased the Stax catalogue and reissued much of the product.

It was indeed discover that the demographic for record buyers was older than what was once believe before Soundscan. But they've also found that many of those sales are for reissues (including the Beatles and Rolling Stone stuff)and not for the most part new product, with the exception of Country and some exceptions like Brian Knight; even Luther's last few albums bombed (relatively). Once people in that age group buy the old product they want in CD format the demographic will drop accordingly unless some new format comes out and the CD becomes obsolete.

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

PREACH ON SCRATCHER, JUST REISSUES ARE CORRECT, AND AS YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T COUNT

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:02 pm:

Scratcher:
First of all, I never called Fantasy a "major label" nor would I ever place it in that catagory - it was and will always be seen as a large independent label that was known for jazz and scored hits thanks to John Fogerty/CCR, Sylvester & Two Tons of Fun, Side Effect and Pleasure. As far as their royalty payments are concerned, it is true that Fantasy & Saul Zaentz (sp) - who owns the company - had caught the ire of John Fogerty over monies owed (then again, what label HASN'T been accused of this). One would hope that Fantasy can get its act together.

The RIAA figures I mentioned did not apply to reissues. The genres that scored the high sales numbers were Country/Western, Gospel, Jazz, Pop and R&B. Rap/hip-hop and rock scored the low numbers. The following is an example of what the adults are buying & their sales status:

Tony Bennett/k.d.lang's "A Wonderful World" (Gold)
Mariah Carey - "Charmbracelet" (Double Platinum - not great for Ms. Carey but all things considered it's a comeback)
Diana Krall "Look Of Love" (Platinum)
Donnie McKlurkin - "Live In London" (Double Platinum), "Home" (new album - gold & approaching platinum)
Dixie Chicks - "Home" (Platinum), "Wide Open Spaces" (Diamond award - sold at least ten million).
Rod Stewart - "It Had To Be You" (Platinum)

And I don't know which Luther Vandross albums you're referring to that "relatively bombed" but according to sales figures I've monitored since "The Best of..The Best of Love" was issued his CDs/albums have sold at least two million apiece.

As a record retail salesperson (and former manager), I've seen what the adults will and won't buy. Reissues only plays a small role in the overall scheme of what someone over 32 or 35 will buy (Rolling Stones' "40 Licks" - yes; "Big Hits (High Tides & Green Grass)" remastered edition - no).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:05 pm:

Clarification - The line should read "the genres that scored the highest sales numbers among adults 35-54 according to the RIAA's 2002 survey were..."

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:08 pm:

KevGo:
is there a statistic on the racial make-up of the information you gave, i'm interested in knowing, who is buying what, that info would give a clearer picture on the original question

By Scratcher (65.133.219.186) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

I consider the Dixie Chicks and K.D. Lang country and I stated that country sales are doing well.

As for Luther, relative as opposed to CDS that sell four million copies and up and don't take three and often more years to achieve those numbers.

Most of Fantasy hits were in the '70s--what have they done lately, except send me these thick catalogues?

The over 32-35 age group are buying CDs by artists they grew up with who are still recording for major labels but how many new artists who record similar music, some with major labels, are they buying?

By DELL (12.14.39.66) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:28 pm:

SCRATCHER:
VERY LITTLE, AS I STATED EARLIER, IF IT'S SOUL AND R&B, YOU LOOKING FOR IT'S VERY HARD TO FIND, I'VE BEEN LOKING FOR A CD BY RUSSELL TOMPKINS, JR. FORMER LEAD SINGER FOR THE STYLISTICS, FOR MONTHS, I KNOW IT'S OUT THERE, BUT NO ONE HAS IT.
NEW CD WITH NEW MATERIAL. SAME WITH OLLIE WOODSON, ONLY WAY TO GET CD IS THRU INTERNET.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:45 pm:

Scratcher:
Do the names Josh Groban, Peter Cincotti, Michael Buble & David Gray ring a bell - these acts are signed to majors except for Peter (he's on Concord Records). Josh & Michael are both on Warner Brothers. These are new acts the older demos are buying (and you can thank folks such as Oprah & 20/20 for giving these new folks the exposure).

As for Fantasy - geez, there's Jim Snidero, Dave Ellis and this new female singer called Ithamara Koorax (sp?). New acts, I believe. Granted they are jazz, but new nonetheless.

As for R&B, while I have yet to see the Russell Tompkins or the Ali-Ollie Woodson CD in the shops (I'm having one of my buyers order them through a one-stop distributor for my store), I have seen the current Main Ingredient CD in my shop and Tower as well as the recent Grammy winner by Solomon Burke.

As far as Luther is concerned - his last album sold through the roof thanks to J Records' constant promotion while his others may have taken time to achieve platinum but the bottom line is they were not failures by any means of the imagination.

I'm not trying to bust your chops, Scratcher - you know I always respect your knowledge and wisdom. There's new music out there for us grown-ups - we just gotta raise the hell to make it available.

This is why I formed my own record label, as many on the forum do know...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.133.219.236) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

Hey Kev, Michael Jackson last album sold over 2 million yet it's considered a flop by all concern, including Michael. It's all about forecasting and meeting your projections for the amount of money spent on the project. I've never heard of any of the acts you mentioned, which doesn't mean much because I don't listen to pop radio anymore, haven't for years. But, usually if an act gets big enough they get all types of media attention and I catch up.

Berry Gordy has said he got out of the record business because it became too expensive to promote a single and break new artists. A million dollars for promotion is not on the low end but it's not the high end either.

The main reason you don't see soul artists like the Manhattans, the O'Jays, Ray, Goodman & Brown on major labels anymore is because they became impossible to forecast. With a hit one of their albums would go gold and the projections for the next LP was implemented only to find it sell 5,000 copies or less. Meaning the label was stuck with thousands of albums nobody wanted. On the other side, an album would sell 25,000 copies and the next with a hit to boost it went gold and sold half a million, meaning the record company had to pay overtime wages and use outside pressing plants to meet the demand and demaximizing their profits. Their fan base was not as loyal as country singers and you could never count on a release selling x amount of copies even if no hit sprung from it.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 04:27 pm:

Scratcher:
Granted, Michael Jackson's last album sold 2 million in the USA but worldwide (which is the view Michael looks at and including the USA) "Invincible" sold better than 8 million. He made his money - albeit not as much as "Thriller".

While forecasting is what we do in the business let's get down to the bottom line - talent. If the talent is there, the forecasting is easier because then a label can focus their efforts on how to sell this artist.

If I signed a classic soul act such as (for example) the Whispers, knowing fully well because they are still a concert draw in smaller theatres and concert clubs, I can basically use the number of folks they draw per city as my basis for "forecasting" (how many CDs to press up, what type of advertising to use,etc).

I know of many labels whose acts only sell 50,000 to 200,000 an album & still make a profit, do more than break even, put money in the bank as well as make an impact. Success is measured in many diffent ways.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.78.51) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:32 pm:

True KevGo, those labels who sell 50,000 to 200,000 albums and make a profit do so because they forecast the expenses, including promotion and pressings for those figures. But, if you sell 200,000 albums and the forecast and promotions were allocated for 500,000 there's a problem.

I don't know what the term is call in recording but in book publishing it's called "sell through." Publishers expect at least a 50 percent sell through for any book they put out or the author may be a one book author for that company. This means if they press 10,000 copies they expect to sell at least 5,000; 7,000 or 8,000 is even better.

I'm just not as optimistic as you and some others are about the recording industry ever shelling out the big bucks for older artists. Look at the ages of the heads of many of these companies. When Jermaine Dupri was 19 or so he got a $20 million dollar bank from a major label to start his own company and has received more monies since. I know about his IRS problem but if he keeps finding and breaking new talent he'll be rolling in dough.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:45 pm:

Scratcher:
I'm not talking about shelling out "big bucks" for older artists. I'm talking about budgeting just enough money to make a profit so that everyone will get a piece of the pie -which is what's wrong with the industry, many labels do not budget or forecast in a sensible manner.

Granted, Jermaine Dupri got a lot of money to start So-So-Def but that was the result of producing an album under budget that made a huge profit, which in this case was the debut CD by Kriss-Kross released in 1992(remember them? "Jump" & "Warm It Up" - #1 pop hits). He was smart enough to forecast sensible but when it came to spending the dough and not reporting it to Mister I-R-of-S, well....

That's why Jermaine is very successful at what he does - he forecasts low and BOOM! makes a killing.

If an label like Jive/Zomba Records could have Marvin Sease on the label for many years that's because they were able to forecast his sales, market it correctly, let him hawk the stuff at his shows and lo & behold sell a bunch of CDs.

The same can be done for our veteran soul acts. The audience is there, the forecasting can be done, so there's no excuse.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.78.51) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 05:59 pm:

We're saying the same thing now, KevGo.

Another problem we haven't brought up, however, is the production, who will produced these acts if they know the forecasted sales are going to be low? Surely, not the hot producers. Similar to Motown, the top producers want to produce the acts that have the money behind them. Everybody wanted to cut something on the Supremes, the Tempts, the Four Tops, Stevie, etc. Nobody's first choices were the also rans, the acts the label were not really pushing. If you were a writer/producer for Philly International in the seventies who would you have chosen to produce, the O'Jays or Johnny Williams?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 06:29 pm:

Scratcher:
I'm not saying this to bust chops but give me Johnny Williams over the O'Jays any day. Why? Because as a producer I want to work with the hungriest of artists (not saying that Johnny is "hungry' per se nor am I saying the O'Jays aren't). I believe that my talent would be in bringing out the best in an artist that is underused and underexposed. The hungry artist, in turn, is gonna know that this may be their last/final/only shot so they're gonna give it all that they have.

Sylvia Moy did it for a young Stevie Wonder. Result - "Uptight", "I Was Made To Love Her"

Stevie in turn did the same for the Spinners and later Jermaine Jackson. Result - "It's A Shame" and "Let's Get Serious"

Thom Bell did it for the Delfonics, Stylistics AND the Spinners.

Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis made career resussitation (sp) a cottage industry in the 1980s (the SOS Band, Human League, New Edition, Johnny Gill, Janet Jackson & Herb Alpert have them to thank).

Give me an act that's hungry, Scratcher. They're the ones who will hit the top.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.76.22) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 08:06 pm:

The hungry don't hit the top if the record company isn't backing them financially. The best product in the world is going nowhere with no money. Johnny Williams was an afterthought at Philly International.