By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:36 am: |
I'm Curious
By John Lester (213.123.146.81) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:38 am: |
I guess he would say..opportunites
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:59 am: |
Just a theory, but i think he seen that a 'black owned' company could be succesful at records and wanted to raise the game into films, but the ground rules for being successful at making records, and making films are just not the same.
I think i read somewhere that Berry (in the 90s)expressed some regret at the decision to move the record company to LA, but that is easily said in hindsight anyway.
By TonyRussi (68.18.33.86) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
I guess to make Diana Ross a movie star.Well, maybe Not just that reason.As we all know Mr. Gordy is a very smart man so I'm sure he had advice from a variety of people.As far as Motown the record company, I think it was a bad move.
By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:04 pm: |
I've been told some other stories over the years that had to do more with "organization" than opportunities ; ).Now they may just be stories,but I have heard them from more than one ofMotown Alumni.
By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:07 pm: |
WE SURE HAVE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE...AND EXAMINED...AD NAUSIUM ALL OF THESE THEORIES!!!...MY TAKE...LOS ANGELES GAVE BERRY THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME A "BIGGER MAN"...THAN HE EVER COULD HAVE BECOME IN DETROIT!!!...STUBASS
By soulboy (213.105.242.198) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
One other thought, about this topic if say for example the record division had stayed in Detroit, Would it have survived disco? possibly,if so would it have survived the 80s techno-pop boom?? who knows? Would it have survived grunge,rap and and adapted??
Sometimes i think it was best for the Detroit era to end at the top of it's game rather than face a long slow decline which it experienced in LA.
By FYI (172.167.82.130) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
THE CRIME. DETROIT IS ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST DANGEROUS CITIES.
By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:14 pm: |
FYI,
Please keep your observations to the existing thread - we can do without it spreading.
Thank you.
By DF (208.27.111.121) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
With all due respect to the Motor City, has anyone ever thought about the theory that Berry Gordy's empire just simply outgrew Detroit?????
Many of us have outgrown our old stomping grounds and moved on to other challenges. Think about it. Peace.
By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
I think if Motown stayed in Detroit, it would have defintely had some serious effect on the outcome of both disco and techno and overall R&B music. Cause:
ain't no party like a funk bother party cause a funk brother party don't stop..!
By Horse (159.53.32.41) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:33 pm: |
DF,
Right about now you might wanna start ducking to avoid the backlash from the angry mob about to come your way...!
By BankHouseDave (195.93.50.9) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:50 pm: |
It's been said before, Berry wasn't looking for local success. He wanted 'Motown' to be as big as EMI and Universal. But he missed the point that those giant corporations don't have heart and soul like Motown. They never established an art form. When Berry moved out, he left the life force of the company behind to wither away.
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 01:58 pm: |
BankHouseDave hit the nail on the head, folks. This topic has been covered before so if you check the archives you will see what was said about Gordy moving out of Detroit.
Kevin Goins - KevGo
By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:14 pm: |
Bankhouse Daves answer was good enough for me.
By M.McLeanTech (66.159.206.60) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:51 pm: |
A factor in the picture was that Berry was a very loving person with a great "soft sell." He had said things to a lot of people whom he had hired that implyed that Motown was going to be a wonderful place like a Church Sunday School where they could be child-like forever.
He meant these things when he said them, but later, the kindergarten that he had created seemed like small potatoes compared to the vast power that arrived in the mid-sixties.
The game had changed from "We are going to do right and build a great company" to "We have millions of dollars cash. If we don't expand, we are going to give it all to the IRS.
What more tempting way to make the best of this situation then to expand in the manner that seemed to make sense to Berry (do it himself in Hollywood) especially after he got so bogged down in Detroit with all the petty attitudes of those that took it all for granted, and started acting like folks that wanted to join a union in order to get their fair share of the profits from what started when Holland-Dozier-Holland wrote all those smash hits for the Supremes in 1965?
HDH were long gone. The kindergarten was all that was left.
Mike McLean
By Scratcher (65.133.219.73) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:56 pm: |
Very good point, Mike. One I never thought of before. If HDH had stayed, Berry probably would have too. Motown took off when HDH started writing and producing all those smash hits and went into a lull when they stopped. Diana left the Supremes, the Four Tops became hit and miss, etc. If not for Norman Whitfield and Ashford and Simpson they would have sunk even deeper.
By M.McLeanTech (66.159.218.194) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:10 pm: |
Scratcher,
I was there. I was hired as one of those young folks at the age of 20. My emotions about the future were dancing on every sweet thing (not to put Berry down) that Berry said, in the early days.
I hold no bitterness toward Berry. As Smokey sang, "Everybody's Got To Pay Some Dues."
I was a mess when I was lucky enough to be hired by Berry. I was a total misfit, who had spent three years at Cooley High School and never passed a course.
To say that I was spoilded rotten would be an understatement. Berry hired me.
My Father was a music lover who cultivated technology dealers who held out the hope of better reproduction of a symphony orchestra. He would take me around, in my little short pants, at the age of seven, to places like Radio Specialties Company, on Charlotte Avenue. It was just accross the street from the old Masonic Temple, where he took me to many Detroit Symphony Concerts, conducted by Paul Paray, in the early fiftys.
I watched what happened as Berry built Motown. I know how the misfits like me felt, as the company grew up.
Mike McLean
By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
On the old Motown Onelist/YahooGroup Bob Olhsson (sp) gave an extensive explanation of why Motown went to Cali that was excellent. I saved it on my old computer, which is dead, so I cannot retrieve it. He went into how Motown was not making money on the hit singles, the lure of motion pictures, etc.
Mike, can you tell us more?
By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:34 pm: |
I THINK THAT MAYBE THE RIOTS OF 67 MAY HAVE HELPED HIM MAKE UP HIS MIND ALSO.
By mhc (172.142.153.129) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:48 pm: |
The other bottom line is that eras in peoples' lives always end. Sometimes it's a drag when they do, but..
By medusa9e (66.73.7.232) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 08:48 am: |
..well I heard a bit different,(but it aint necessarily so) ********************
The M#@%*A, The Gangsters. In fact, Berry couldn't return 2 Detroit 4 a Funeral at one time. So what was that all about? Sometimes, when U have a large piece of the pie, there's always someone who wants a bite. Know what I mean?
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:54 am: |
Medusa,
The gangster thing is old and not true. Believe me, if this was in fact an issue the mob would have no trouble locating him in L.A. It was simply a decision that was made that at the time must have had merit to Berry. It was his company and he was free to run it as he saw fit.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:59 am: |
The funeral you mentioned that Berry did not return to Detroit for was more than likely his mother's. Berry was immersed in the making of " Lady Sings The Blues " and found it impossible to leave at this time. He drew some heat over this but I'm sure he handled this situation as best he could and meant absolutely no disrespect for his mother.
By rosario (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:14 am: |
OH COME ON RALPH! HE COULDN'T MAKE IT TO HIS MOTHER'S FUNERAL BECAUSE HE WAS TIED UP MAKING A FREAKIN' MOVIE! IF YOU ONLY GO TO ONE FUNERAL IN YOUR LIFE THAT ONE WOULD BE YOUR MOMS. WHAT TYPE OF PERSON WOULD EVEN STATE SUCH A LAME EXCUSE FOR NOT ATTENDING THEIR MOM'S FUNERAL IF THERE WASN'T OTHER "LIFE THREATENING" REASONS? ENOUGH OF THE BERRY GORDY JR. APOLOGIST BIT ALREADY.
THE MAFIA THEORY HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN OR DISPROVEN AND THE LA MAFIA FAMILY IS DIFFERENT THAN THE DETROIT FAMILY. BERRY DIDN'T HAVE A BEEF WITH THE LA FAMILY.
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:22 am: |
Rosario,
I understand what you are saying regarding the the funeral of Berry's mother. Believe me I was appalled at the time. I'm not making excuses for Berry but afterward certain facts would come about that helped support Berry's decision. Believe me, it would be hard to find a more devoted son than Berry. The Gordy family was very tight.
By MEDUSA9e (66.73.5.15) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:54 am: |
ALLLRighty Then**
I WAS SO VERY WRONG, just stating what was N the wind at one time or another.
..and I"M SO Sorry Ok? Whatever the reason,it didn't affect me directly, but I hate like h%@ll Motown left Detroit no matter what!
So U guys just back off. I was just responding 2 a topic on the "FORUM"~OK?~~~OK. I'd hate 2 turn U 2 stone or something like that!!! hahahahahaha
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
Wow!! You can do things like that Medusa??
By medusa9e (66.73.5.15) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:00 pm: |
I don't know a Man yet that hasn't looked at me and turned 2 stone someplace on his body.
hahahahahaha...and then again, maybe U'd better leave that one alone..haha
By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
MUM's the word Medusa.
By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:19 pm: |
After what I did mythically to my brother, I'm not touching this one.....
By medua9e (66.73.5.15) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:56 pm: |
Uh oh....Has the Gorgons come out 2 play?
There is a (suppose 2 B) true story of Medusa or Madusa, and it's someplace on the Internet.
It states she was born N Lybia,she was a beautiful Queen and she wore what we now call Locks (Dread Locks)and foreigners thought they were snakes. Mos of all, she was a Queen ~~and~~~she was/is Beautiful. NOw as far as turning people 2 stone??all I can say is, if he were a man, I think we know how she turned him 2 stone. By the way douglasm~U did what 2 your brother mythically? hahahahaha
By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 01:14 pm: |
In the Luther Vandeross thread, I refered to him as GorGon, as opposed to GorDon, his actual name. Got an e-mail from him, and a post on the thread--first time he's posted, I think--in response.
FOR THE RECORD, Gordon, (who lives in Detroit and teaches in Dearborn) is very knoledgeable about music (mostly '70's rock), and would like to see him post more often. He's sure filled in holes in my education.
On the other hand, he DID get to see the Funk Bros. concert in Detroit (Bootsy stuck a mike in his face during the chant), and I didn't......
By medusa9e (66.73.4.157) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:10 pm: |
OK then Doug, U R still safe...almost Began 2 think u casted a spell or something oh him.
ok all is well~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 03:32 am: |
Actually medua9e my apologies as I was the one who brought up the Mob thing.I am somewhat new to the forum and didn't realize that it had been discused here before.As I said in my original post,I had heard this from more than one Motown alumini .It may be that was the rumour started at the time when no one knew the real reason why they were being cut out of the Motown dream.
By medusa9e (66.73.1.154) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 04:11 am: |
Hey, everything's alright, this is a "Forum". U didn't say or do anything wrong. Everyone has their say. Some R a bit aggresive than others that's all. I just mentioned what I'd heard and B4 anyone that disagrees come through my monitor (screen), LOL I just had 2 make it clear it was something I heard and not a known fact.
By the way, I'm rather new here myself and I love it. I feel like everyone here is a friend, although we sometimes dis-agree, we R all adults here with different comments,opinions,ideas, questions, and so we all have a different response, but we respect eachother & That's what make this a great FORUM. Welcome 2 The FORUM, U will love it here...
By M.McLeanTech (66.159.217.161) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 04:39 am: |
THIS TREAD IS CLOSED.
I am so sick and tired of hearing morons speak of how corrupt Berry Gordy was!
I was hired by Berry. I worked for him for twelve years.
I never ever felt that he had anything other then high minded morals and approachs to running the company.
Those who blame him for leaving are fools who never appreciated him in the first place!
Harry Balk taught Berry how to be a player.
Berry built Motown.
Berry left Motown-Detroit, and he hired Harry Balk to run the Detroit operation. I worked for Harry for at least a year. Is this time and effort to try to make Motown a success forgotten?
The forum is full of people who want a fantisy, and, because of their numbers, they build up a pressure in the direction of balony!
I remember and love Harry Balk! That's good enough for me!
I remember and love Berry Gordy Jr. That's good enough for me!
I remember how I lusted after Berry's sister, Loucye Wakefield. She was like a super version of Eartha Kitt! Then she dropped dead. (Broken blood tube in the brain)
My beautiful wife died a year ago. Never forget: If you become involved with a person, you take the risk of the pain when they die. This should be the sense of caution about becoming involved with a spouse, and marriage, not the classic sense that one must get away from paying the diaper bills.
I paid my own diaper bills. When she died, I ---- my pants! I loved her more then anyone can say. (with the exception of someone who has not made a commitment to a partner.)
At any rate, I feel that I have paid as much dues as any of these song writers that have peppered the scene since 1952. They are smart enough to create art that morons will swoon over.
Those who roll back and froth in their own mental musical filth, and can't quite understand why the Cops that arrest them listen to the police radio, instead of their music, should listen to the Los Angeles Philharmonic, or any other fine Orchersta.
Perhaps if those who watch television pulled their heads back down their throats, down to the stomach, and all the way out their rectum, they might be able to wash up and access life.
The best first move would be to buy a ticket to a symphony concert!
PLEASE MOVE TO THE NEW THREAD.
By Jay (167.167.44.218) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 04:55 am: |
This has to go down as THE number one CLASSIC Mike McLean post of all time!!!!!!!
Now that my beady brain is sufficiently bent, I shall now leave the studio, go home and tomorrow, enjoy my first day off in 2 weeks! hurray!
Peace,
Jay
By M.McLeanTech (66.159.217.161) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 05:05 am: |
If I can drive one person out of a studio, and into a concert hall, I will feel that I have accomplished my goal.
By the way: Do you know that they rip out all but the most Goo-goo level posts? I have reviewed my remaining items called up by the "search forum" function.
There is no question that we who post our hard created writings on this forum are stupid suckers who are censored at the whim of we do not know who!
By medusa (66.73.10.90) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:29 am: |
I'm Very Sorry that U R so upset...But Y do U call people stupid suckers 4 posting on this forum?...U just posted something........LOL~LMAO
By Jason king of the Argo-Nuts (212.159.54.225) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
Hey Medusa!!!!!!
I Thought I Had sorted you out regards are last meeting when I was in search of the golden fleece.
JASON OF THE ARGONUTS
(no it is not mis-spelled)
By medusa (66.73.5.82) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 02:51 pm: |
I DON'T KNOW WHO U R, BUT HAVE A NICE DAY OK????
By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 11:02 pm: |
Mr. McLean,
What type of plug-ins do they use on that concert hall music? They sound really good.
By stephanie (66.54.1.38) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 08:27 am: |
MIKE MCLEAN TECH!!!
I know some folks like Berry and some dont but Im glad that you came to his defense and let us know what he did for YOU.
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who doesnt post but he reads this board and he said (I take that back he has posted twice) without the technicians nothing goes through and he has a lot of respect for you..
Stephanie
A terrible terrana twin angel
a stubass angel
and NOW a Mike Mclean tech angel!!!!!!
Im glad that you post as Mike Mclean tech because that title speaks for all of the techs..oh by the way although I am an oldies and a Motown fanatic I do like Chopin and Mozart I bet you didnt know that!!!!!
By Horse (159.53.238.241) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 09:39 am: |
WOW....sounds like we have another satisfied customer..! Buy that man ANOTHER drink on me. Just hope he's not driving after he leaves here..!
By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 02:00 pm: |
If Mike McLean and Ralph Terrana has said there was no mob/mafia corruption within Motown, I have no reason or right on this earth to doubt their word.
If anyting, like Mike said, Berry listened & learned from those who were around the music biz at that time. He incorporated what he learned and through trial, error and a LOT of help from his employees/artists/executives/colleagues (who wanted to see Gordy succeed) BG built an empire that has inspired millions (like myself).
I've heard the rumors regarding the mob/mafia & Motown for years and let's face it unless SOMEBODY can provide any evidence beyond the reasonable doubt that there was a relationship it just didn't happen.
Let's leave it at that.
Kevin Goins - KevGo