By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:04 am:

I love Doo woppy Soul but there are only a few examples that I can think of immediately, like "Lonely Baby" and "Everytime" by Ty Hunter, "Angel" by the Satintones, or even "Shama Lama Ding Dong" by Otis Day and the Knights!

If anyone can lead me to any more Soul of this type, you will be my friend for life!!!

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:05 am:

Okay, there is also "Gypsy Woman" by the Impressions. "Duke Of Earl," Chicago, too, right?

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:09 am:

Anything by the Dells.

By Eli (141.151.78.96) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:16 am:

Usta be my girl..Ojays

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:20 am:

Oh yeah, I forgot about them. I have the '65 version of "Stay In My Corner" and the later version. Also a '50's version (I think) of "Oh, What A Night."
I know there is more Dells' stuff out there for me to acquire, though.
Thanks, Funkyone D J Dollar Dollar BILL! You are one of my new friends for life!

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:22 am:

Eli - I thought that was more of a Disco like song? I have to listen to it again! Anyhows, thanks FFL (friend for life)!

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:24 am:

There is one song on Fortune by that real dynamic guy that someone emailed me a few weeks ago, I'll have to look for it.

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 12:42 am:

Moments/Ray,Goodman,Brown.Five Stairsteps/Invisible Band.

Are you looking for more uptempo Julian?

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 01:02 am:

Yeah Funkyone, you can toss some of that out too!Keep it coming (especially early '60's stuff)!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 01:16 am:

"HAVE YOU SEEN HER"...CHI-LITES...THE DOO-WOPPIEST SONG OF THE POST DOO-WOP ERA!!!...STUBASS

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

Anything from the Dells, Chi-lites, Impressions, O'Jays and Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

As well as Smokey Robinson & the Miracles, the Temptations & the Four Tops...

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

ERR KEV: WONDERING JUST WHAT YOUR OPERATIONAL DEFINITION OF DOO-WOP IS???...STU

By MichaelOH (24.157.156.82) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 02:43 pm:

"Who's Lovin' You" -The Temps

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:01 pm:

Stu:
Doo-Wop is street-corner influenced vocal music, born in the church and raised out on the corners and stoops of urban America.
The Miracles is considered by many doo-wop fans as being part of the tail-spin of that era but a significant part at that ("Got A Job", "Bad Girl", the early version of "Shop Around" & "Who's Lovin' You")The Four Tops may have been more of a straight-up vocal group (see Billy Eckstine) but their vocals & harmonies can be attributed to both jazz singing and street-corner vocals. The Temptations - the Distants ("Come On" - classic doo-wop hit from the house of Johnnie Mae Matthews)and the Primes both came from the doo-wop tradition. "I Want A Love I Can See" and "Check Yourself" are fine examples.

Hope this answers your question.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:11 pm:

HEY KEV: YOU ALWAYS ANSWER ALL OF OUR QUESTIONS...AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TAKE ON THIS!!!...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR DESCRIPTION OF "STREET CORNER" SINGING...AS A MATTER OF FACT...ONE OF MY FONDEST MEMORIES WAS SINGING ON IN A TALENT SHOW AT AGE 7 WITH "THE SPINNERS" YES...*THOSE* HIGH SCHOOL AGE SPINNERS...AND THEM SINGING DOO-WOP BACKSTAGE IN THE STAIRWELL!!!...MY ONLY QUESTION REGARDING YOUR COMMENT WAS..."ANYTHING FROM"...ETC...LIKE "CLOUD NINE"...OR "BERNADETTE"...OR "LOVE MACHINE"...WHICH I CONSIDER SOUL...BUT NOT DOO-WOP....ALTHOUGH DOO-WOP CERTAINLY INFLUENCED THE VOCAL GROUP SOUL MUSIC THAT CAME LATER!!!...THANKS...AS ALWAYS...STU

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:24 pm:

How can doo-woppy soul be discussed without mentioning the Originals ?

"Baby I'm For Real" and "The Bells" are pure doo-wop with late sixties recording techniques.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

Hey Davie:
Thanks for chiming in on the Originals....there's only so much info my brain can process!
Your pal,
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Fury13 (12.2.196.17) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:29 pm:

Nathaniel Mayer: "Village Of Love," "Leave Me Alone," "My Last Dance With You"... all good examples.

"Last Night I Cried" by Gino Parks.

By nikki (24.46.200.124) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:40 pm:

Master Four - It's Not the End

Almost anything by the Satintones, mainly "Angel", "My Beloved", "I Know How It Feels", "Zing Went the Strings of My Heart", "Faded Letter" and "Tomorrow and Always".

Four Sonics - Where Are You

Relations - Don't Let Me Down This Weekend

Six the Hard Way - Guess Who

A Tint of Darkness - Steal Away

Exciters - Drama of Love

.....just to name a few.......

Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By Soulpuss (24.102.217.36) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 08:07 pm:

Shep & the Limelites were very influential in ushering in the age of doo-woppy soul. It doesn't get any sweeter than Shep & the Limelites.

"Our Anniversary" and "Daddy's home" plus others drive me crazy.Shep wrote most if not all their songs."What did Daddy do" wow!!!

By Scratcher (65.133.219.73) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 08:57 pm:

The Four Tops background and influences are strictly modern harmony and jazz; I've never heard any signs of doo wop in them at all. Right on about the early Miracles. But The Temptations "I Want a Love I Can See" was hardly doo-wop; "Farewell My Love" and some others were in that mold and I can see how "Check Yourself" is mentioned. The Four Tops' Larry Payton use to teach some of the other Motown groups how to sing modern harmony. The Tops' had aspirations of being like the Mills Brothers and other groups along that line.

By stephanie (66.54.1.38) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:01 pm:

Lawrence Payton didnt get his just due!!! Its funny how Im beginning to see all of this stuff about how he taught the Four Tops all of the harmonies and everything its amazing..
Stephanie

By Scratcher (65.133.219.73) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:13 pm:

None of the Four Tops did Stephanie but Levi. They suffered the same fate as the Miracles, the Supremes and a few other Motown groups. Berry wanted the producers to concentrate on one lead singer--period (but only for certain groups). Billy Eckstine once said he didn't understand why Abdul Fakir never sang lead because he had such a beautiful voice. Evdidently Eckstine heard Fakir singing in the studio or somewhere cause I never have. Payton and Obie Benson had good voices, both led songs on occassional, moreso Payton. Ron White and Claudette were both capable of lead vocals. And we know what happened to the Supremes. The Miracles actually paid Payton to teach them modern harmony.

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 08:51 am:

REMEMBER THE GIRLS COULD DOOWOP TOO!..TEARS,THE SUPREMES..EDDIE MY LOVE,THE TEEN QUEENS..SO LONG BABY,THE MARVELETTES..ON THE MALE SIDE AMONG THE BEST IS..BABY,BABY I NEED YOU,ISN'T SHE PRETTY,FAREWELL MY LOVE,THE TEMPS..I DO,THE MARVELOWS..DUKE OF EARL,THE DUKAYS WITH GENE CHANDLER..AND ONE OF THE GREATEST MODERN DOOWOP CLASSICS..I DON'T HAVE TO SHOP AROUND,THE MAD LADS,I BET THERE AREN'T TOO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WHO DIDN'T SING THAT ONE IN THE HALL WAY AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER BACK IN THE DAY!

By RD (63.188.33.62) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:08 am:

The Mad Lads were sweet southern modern doo wop to me. Don't forgot the Jewels from Washington, D. C., a female group who vocal approach was like the male groups. "Paradise" by the original Tempts is often overlooked as is "Isn't She Pretty," which R&B noted. "Lonely Drifter" by the O'Jays and Maurice McCallister & the Radiants' "One Day I'll Show You (I Really Love You)" also qualify. And lest not forget The Spinners' "That's What Girls are Made For" and "In My Diary" or some of the Manhattans' Carnival sides like "When We Were Made As One."

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:39 am:

Scratcher:
Listen very closely to the Tempts singing background on "I Want A Love I Can See", especially the second verse ("oowee-ooo- doo-ba-dah-bah-dah.."). Straight-up doo wop singing.

I never said the Four Tops were doo-wop - I said they were much closer to vocal singing and their harmonies are attributed to jazz and street-corner singing circa late 1940s.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 10:48 am:

OF COURSE IF YOU REALLY WANNA GET DOWN WITH SOME SWEET STREET CORNER HARMONY LOOK NO FURTHER THAN THE MOONGLOWS..BLUE VELVET!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:40 pm:

HEY KEVGO: IT'S A RARE PRIVILIDGE TO CHALLENGE A GREAT MUSICAL MIND LIKE YOURS...AND I MEAN THAT FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!!...AS FOR THE DOO-WOP INFLUENCE ON MOTOWN RECORDING GROUPS!!!...I BELIEVE THAT CONNECTION WOULD SURELY HAVE BERRY GORDY (SINCE HE IS STILL WITH US...AND BY ALL REPORTS...QUITE A HEALTHY INDIVIDUAL)...ROLLING AROUND THE FLOOR OF HIS BEL AIR MANSION!!!...I BELIEVE THAT BERRY'S DESIRE WAS TO GET THE MOTOWN SOUND AS FAR AWAY FROM "RACE MUSIC" AND "DOO-WOP TYPE MUSIC" AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE!!!...BERRY CREATED A "NEW" SOUND...ONE THAT WOULD APPEAL TO A LARGE CROSSOVER AUDIENCE...WITH THE IMPLIMENTATION OF SOPHISTICATED VOCAL AND MUSICAL ARRANGEMENTS...FAR AWAY FROM THE SIMPLISTIC "DOO-WOP" SOUNDS OF THE STREET CORNER!!!...TRUE...WHILE MANY OF THE GROUPS TO EMERGE FROM MOTOWN HAD "DOO-WOP" IN THEIR COLLECTIVE MUSICAL PAST...THE MOTOWN SOUND HAD TO BE SOMETHING BIGGER AND BETTER...WHICH WOULD APPEAL TO A NEW CULTURE...BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE RAPID CHANGES WHICH WERE OCCURING IN OUR SOCIETY DURING THE DECADE OF THE 60'S!!!...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION...YES...DOO-WOP...AS WELL AS "BLUES"..."JAZZ"...AND EARLY "ROCK AND ROLL" INFLUENCED THE ARTISTS OF THAT GENRE...HOWEVER...IT WAS *NOT* BERRYS INTENTION TO PRODUCE A PRODUCT THAT HAD ANY CONNECTION TO WHAT WE KNOW AS DOO-WOP MUSIC...AND ANY DOO-WOP INFLUENCE IN THE MOTOWN SOUND WAS STRICTLY A NATURAL EVOLUTIONARY OCCURENCE ...AND NOT BY DESIGN IN ANY WAY...SHAPE...OR FORM!!!...RESPECTFULLY...STUBASS....P.S. TO R&B...YOU'D NEVER FIND ANY STUBASS "ANGELS" HANGING AROUND ANY STREET CORNER...AS THE INFERENCE WOULD NOT BE PROPER AS RELATES TO THE CALIBRE OF INDIVIDUAL ASSOCIATED IN ANY WAY WITH STUBASS!!!...

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:40 pm:

Anyone mention Fuzz yet?

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:50 pm:

Stu I would agree that instrumentaly Mr.Gordy wanted a "new" sound,but vocally that is some straight up Doo Wop!3 and 4 part harmonies that could have stood on their own with out a instrument in sight.Now before you all destroy me,it is only BECAUSE of the fantastic music played behind the vocalists ,that Motown stood out from the crowd in the first place.That's not to say the singers didn't have talent either,oh I'll just shut up now as there's no way to give balanced credit,nor should I try.Besides who the heck am I?Stu would know better than most and I am just a young pup,but that's always been my take in regards to Doo Wop in Motown.

Respect to you and yours,

D.J. $ BILL

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

RAP ON D.J.!!!...MY OPINIONS ARE NO MORE VALID THAN YOURS!!!...STU

By Funkyone D J Dollar BILL (216.221.81.96) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:03 pm:

Please!You lived and worked in the industry.I am just a late comer with no first hand knowledge.I have to respect my elders!LOL

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:35 pm:

Stu:
No doubt Gordy wanted to create a sound that would be different yet distict. Yet, to deny what was at the very root of Motown's vocal group style would be like one denying their heritage or ethnicity. Berry & Motown took the roots, nutured them for growth and then added ornements to the tree (pop, classical, Broadway show music, Gospel, jazz, Latin) to create something unique - the Motown Sound. But what's at the foundation - doo wop, street corner acapella, vocal jazz, the blues and jazz of the Funk Brothers. The vital roots that even Berry himself helped create & nuture (according to his autobiography, his first love was jazz & boogie-woogie piano).

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.77.216) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 01:50 pm:

KevGo must have misread your Four Tops' comments. I agree on the late 40s' street corner influence as opposed to 50s or 60s' street corner influences.

I don't hear "I Want a Love I Can See" as doo wop though. Some previous Tempts' singles were doo wop ish and I think Smokey (the producer) tried to get the Tempts away from that sound and was striving for something new and different.

On tunes like "Paradise," "Isn't She Pretty" and "Farewell My Love" the intent was definitely doo wop and if I was compiling a doo wop compilation CD would have no problem including either of those songs; not so for "I Want a Love I Can See," to my ears it wouldn't fit.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 02:09 pm:

Scratcher:
Smokey definitely got the Tempts away from the doo-wop influenced music starting with "The Way You Do The Things You Do" and "My Girl" but the remnants were there on "I Want A Love I Can See".

The ones you mentioned are also in the doo-wop league as well as "Check Yourself" & "Oh Mother Of Mine".

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Scratcher (65.132.77.216) on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 02:23 pm:

Also, "Mind Over Matter" and "I'll Love You Til I Die" as the Pirates. While "I Want a Love..." has doo wop remmnants the intent to produced a doo wop recording wasn't there with that one--to my ears anyway. Its follow-up written by Berry Gordy "Farewell My Love" was quasi doo-wop at its best and a great song for hand dancing; it was extremely popular at canteens and parties.

By Julian (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 02:50 am:

There is some doo-wopping in the Temps' "I'm Losing You," but when I really give it a listen, it's sort of in a funky way, which was starting then, I guess.

Also, to me, there is something about Doo-Wop that is almost ethereal, spiritual. I love listening to it, especially at night. Don't know why.

I just discovered the Mad Lads' "I Don't Have To Shop Around" a few weeks ago. You are right R&B, that is a jam!

By R&B (138.238.41.128) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 09:50 am:

HEY STU,I HEAR YOU ON THE ANGELS STREET CORNER THING AND I KNOW THAT ANY ANGEL IF YOURS IS A LADY OF THE HIGHEST CALIBER,YOUR PAL R&B!

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:08 am:

I think Stubass's assessment of Motown's endeavors to separate it's sound from Do-Wop is accurate. The evidence to support his beliefs lies in the very early album covers, which by anyone's standards had very little in their lily white content to suggest anything remotely involved with Do-Wop.

By RD (65.132.76.233) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 10:35 am:

There were almost as many white doo wop groups as there were black. So, I don't understand what black and white has to do with doo wop.

But I do agree that after 1963 Motown tried to distant itself from doo wop. This is why they were never big on the Originals and held back "Baby I'm For Real" for a year before releasing it--it had that old doo wop ish sound.

The early Temptations' releases prior to 1963 were, however, in the doo wop vein, as were recordings by the Satintones, the Valadiers, and some others.

I don't buy the white faces on the album cover theory. There are far more Motown albums with black faces on the covers than ones with white faces. In fact, you can count the ones with white faces on your fingers.

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.42) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:22 am:

RD's right about Motown covers - of all the albums issued up to the end of '67 only two
show white faces - the Isley's "This Old Heart
Of Mine" and Chris Clark's "Soul Sounds".

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:27 am:

Davie....
....how many show no one? It may be a mistaken belief on my part, but I was always under the impression that early-mid Motown was promoted race nuteral outside of Detroit until the acts became well established.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:37 am:

HEY GUYS: INTERESTING DISCUSSION!!!...WHEN TALKING MOTOWN SINGING GROUPS...LETS KEEP ONE THING IN MIND...WE'RE TALKING *LEAD SINGER* DRIVEN PRODUCT...WE'RE NOT EXACTLY TALKING "THE MILLS BROTHERS" HERE!!!...DOO-WOP WAS THREE OR FOUR PART HARMONY DRIVEN...THATS WHAT STOOD OUT!!!...MOTOWN PRODUCTIONS HIGHLIGHTED THE LEAD SINGER...THUS DIANA ROSS *AND* THE SUPREMES...THAT'S WHY DAVID RUFFIN WANTED HIS NAME FIRST...THATS WHY SMOKEY BECAME THE POP ICON THAT HE DID...WHILE THE MIRACLES...OTHER THAN MOST OF US...DO MANY PEOPLE KNOW WHO PETE...BOBBY...RONNY...ETC...ARE???...SAME WITH MOST MOTOWN GROUPS!!!...THE BACKGROUND VOCALS ON MUCH OF THE MATERIAL...WHILE EXTREMELY WELL DONE...AND VITAL TO THE FINAL PRODUCT...WAS NOT WHAT WAS MARKETED TO THE PUBLIC AT LARGE!!!...I MAY GET SOME HEAT ON THIS ONE...BUT OVER THE BROAD SPECTRUM...MOST MOTOWN MUSIC FANS...ACROSS THE BOARD...RELATE TO THE TEMPTATIONS DANCE ROUTINES MORE THAN TO THE BACKGROUND VOCALS...NO MATTER HOW WELL THEY WERE DONE (THATS WHY "IN A MELLOW MOOD" WAS SUCH A DIVERGENCE FROM THE USUAL TEMPTS MATERIAL...THE STAND OUT FOUR PART HARMONY)...ONCE YOU GET PAST DAVID...DENNIS...OR EDDIE!!!...AM I MAKING ANY SENSE HERE???...OR ARE THOSE OBTRUSIONS STICKING OUT OF THE SIDE OF MY HEAD JUST PAINTED ON???...P.S. I'M TALKING THE *AVERAGE* FAN AND LISTENER...NOT SOME OF US MUSICAL "NUTCASES" (MYSELF INCLUDED)...WHO ACTUALLY SIT DOWN AN ANALIZE THIS S#!T!!!...MOST RESPECT GOING OUT TO YOU ALL!!!...STUBASS

By Scratcher (65.132.76.213) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:54 am:

I relate to vocal groups' harmonies, as well as the lead singers. The only time dance steps enter the picture is if I see the group live. A good live performance, however, has nothing do with rather I like their recordings. And I can love a group or artist recordings and not their live show.

Motown didn't start concentrating on the dominant lead singers in their groups until 1963 (that year again); around the time HDH emerged as the company's paradigm sound.

I read the thread about the Epitomy of Motown and chuckled at some of the responses. The Epitomy of Motown, the sound that got them off the ground and into the stratosphere was Holland, Dozier and Holland. If it hadn't been for HDH most of the later stuff would have never happened.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:56 am:

P.S. TO MY FELLOW "NUTCASES"!!!...THATS WHY...I BELIEVE IN SOME WAYS ...THAT "GLADYS KNIGHT AND THE PIPS" WERE A QUINTESSESTIAL AND TYPICAL MOTOWN "SINGING GROUP"!!!...GLADYS SINGING HER ASS OFF...WHILE THE PIPS STOOD IN THE BACKGROUND DOING THEIR "TOOT TOOT'S"...AND "I KNOW SHE WILL'S"...ALL THE WHILE...MOVING THEIR BODIES IN SOPHISTICATED SYNC TO THE MUSIC!!!...*THAT* WAS THE MOTOWN RECORDING FORMULA...AND HOW MR. GORDY CHOSE TO PRESENT HIS ACTS...AND IT SEEMED TO WORK PRETTY DAMN WELL!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:04 pm:

P.S. TO SCRATCHER!!!...AND UP UNTIL 1963...MOTOWN WAS JUST FINDING IT'S FOOTING IN THE MARKETPLACE...PRETTY MUCH AN UPSTART COMPANY AT THAT TIME...THE FORMULA WAS JUST BEGINNING TO EMERGE...AND THE REAL "BIG BUCKS" HADN'T EVEN BEEN IMAGINED THAT FAR BACK!!!...MOTOWNS GOLDEN DAYS BEGAN TO HAPPEN AS WE APPROACHED THE MID-60'S...AND THAT WHEN THE ACROSS THE BOARD CROSSOVER APPEAL JETTISONED THE COMPANY TO THE LOFTY HEIGHTS IT ULTIMATLY ACHIEVED!!!...AS I STATED...THEY HAD TO MOVE BEYOND THE MUSIC OF THE 50'S AND EARLY 60'S...AND WHAT THE EARLY 60'S STUFF DID WAS BANKROLL THE CULTURAL PHENOMONON WHICH WAS STILL TO COME..."THE MOTOWN SOUND"!!!...STU

By Nish (66.119.34.39) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:05 pm:

The Whispers early Dore/Janus recordings, The Incredibles, "I'll Make It Easy," The Ordells from Philly (don't know if they recorded a substantial number of sides), The Superbs from LA, good doo-wop soul sounds.

They've been mentioned already, but no one embodied the doo-wop sound in the 60s like The Miracles.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

Maybe, but only later, and from a marketing standpoint, Stu. Bearing in mind that the following is based on theory, not any factual material I may have.

The "lead singer" driven idea only came after the groups themselves were firmly established (in most cases), and after the lead firmly established him or herself.
Doing this would allow for two things. First, it would allow a solo career for the lead singer (i.e. Smokey Robinson and Diana Ross), and allow for the group to continue after that lead left (again The Miracles and The Supremes). A parallel would be Frankie Vallee and The Four Seasons, who lasted long enough for Frankie to establish himself as THE lead, as opposed to (and I may have the group wrong here) The Skyliners, where Jimmy Beaumont didn't establish himself as a name untill way late, long after their popular recording career ended, or the Fleetwoods, firmly identifyable by the male lead, but who I couldn't name to save my soul.
In the case of Doo-Wop, again the backround was used to highlite the lead singer, and bring depth to the whole song in the same way Motown group songs were. Although they're out there, I can't come up with a group short of the Mills Brothers or the Kirby Stone Four (where did THAT come from?) where ALL the members shared equally in the performance. Make sense?

By Scratcher (65.132.76.213) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:19 pm:

You're right Nish about the LA Groups and the Miracles. If the doo wop sound had lasted the Miracles would have been a better doo wop group than the soul/pop group they became. Smokey loved Nolan Strong (of the Diablos) and emulated him on many of the Miracles' early recordings. Doo wop groups relied mostly on singing, not dancing and the Miracles fit that mold better. Not all '50s vocal groups sang doo wop; some confuse the R&B and novelty groups from that era as doo woppers.

By STUBASS (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

HEY GUYS!!!...I THINK THAT WE MAY ALL BE...SUBSTANTIALLY IN AGREEMENT HERE!!!...NO ONE WILL DENY THAT DOO-WOP...AS WELL AS THE BLUES... EARLY ROCK AND ROLL...AND EVEN JAZZ AND CHURCH MUSIC INFLUENCED MANY OF THE ARTISTS...WRITERS...AND PRODUCERS OF THE MOTOWN ERA (I HAVE MENTIONED WATCHING THE TEENAGED SPINNERS SINGING "STONE" DOO-WOP BACKSTAGE AT A TALENT SHOW I DID WITH THEM IN THE LATE 50'S)!!!...BUT AS FOR THE "MOTOWN SOUND"...IT ULTIMATLY EVOLVED GENERATIONS BEYOND WHAT WE ALL KNOW AS 50'S DOO-WOP...BY DESIGN!!!...THAT'S WHAT WORKED...AND THATS WHAT SOLD!!!...QUALITATIVE OPINIONS ARE LIKE A-HOLES...WE'VE ALL GOT ONE!!!...BUT THE QUANTITATIVE SUCCESS...WHAT PEOPLE FLOCKED TO THE RECORD STORES TO BUY (BULLETS ON THE CHARTS)...FOR MOTOWN AT LEAST...WAS A SOUND GENERATIONALLY BEYOND CLASSIC DOO-WOP...AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT...LET'S NOT FORGET THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE "FUNK BROTHERS" TO ALL OF THIS!!!...I BELIEVE THAT THE MUSICALLY ACCOMPLISHED "FUNKS" WOULD HAVE BECOME ARTISTICALLY "BORED"...JUST PLAYING BACKGROUND ON RUDIMENTARY DOO-WOP TRACKS...AND THE INTEGRATION OF ALL OF THESE ASPECTS...LED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF "THE MOTOWN SOUND"!!!...THANKS FOR THE DISCOURSE...GOTTA GO!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 01:24 pm:

*FINAL* ASIDE...*REALLY* GOTTA GO (GROWING FLOCK OF "ANGELS" TO FEED AND ALL)...BUT DOUG: I AGREE THAT I HEAR A LOT MORE DOO-WOP IN THE "FOUR SEASONS" MATERIAL THAN IN ANY OF THE MOTOWN WORK!!!...ALSO...STILL MAINTAIN...THAT THE DOO-WOPPIEST SOUL SONG (LATE 60'S) IS THE CHI-LITES..."HAVE YOU SEEN HER" (STONE DOO-WOP)...AND AGREE WITH JULIAN THAT MUCH OF CURTIS MAYFIELDS WORK CONTAINED A HEAVY DOO-WOP INFLUENCE!!!...THINK I'LL GET AWAY FROM ALL THIS DOO-WOP DISCUSSION AND RENT THE ROBERT DENERO VIDEO..."A BRONX TALE"...OR MAYBE NOT...IT'S ALL DOO-WOP!!!...LATER..STU

By DUSTYROSE (152.163.188.68) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 02:46 pm:

HEY SCRATCHER
IF YOU WANT TO HEAR THE DOO WOP IN "I WANT A LOVE I CAN SEE",THEN YOU M U S T CHECK OUT SMOKEY "LIVE" DOING AN ACAPELLA VERSION.
A MASTERFULL RENDITION FROM THE MASTER HIMSELF.
I'M SORRY HE NEVER RECORDED THIS ACAPELLA
VERSION ON ANY OF HIS ALBUMS. ITS AWESOME!!!

By Scratcher (65.132.76.48) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 04:52 pm:

Would love to hear that Dusty Rose. I recently heard a live version of "Fork In the Road" that the Miracles did at the 20 Grand around 1966 or so and it's great. I'm not saying the song doesn't have some doo wop flavor, i'm saying Smokey tried to do something else with that song when he recorded it on the Tempts. He could have made it much more doo wop ish if he wanted to. The backing track on the song masks a lot its doo wop ambiances. I can see an a cappela group making it straight doo wop.

By Scratcher (65.132.76.48) on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 04:57 pm:

KevGo and Dusty Rose, I just mentally blocked the music to "I Want a Love I Can See" from the Temptations' vocals and voila--Doo Wop!

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 02:27 am:

Just discovered another one!
"That's The Way Love Goes." The Ethics

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 01:07 pm:

You're My Desire by Mary Wells on her second Mo-
town LP (One Who Really Loves You) is very doowop,
complete with doowop backup vocals--males.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 02:09 pm:

Hey Scratcher:
My brother! You have seen the doo-wop light! Praise the Lord & pass the mic!
Kevin "I Want A Love I Can See" Goins - KevGo

By Yan (24.69.255.204) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 04:37 pm:

Stubass- "Bronx Tale" soundtrack is pretty good; but the best OST ever has to be "Mean Streets"- Nutmegs' Ship Of Love, Johnny Ace- Pledging My Love- and who can forget the fight in the pool hall to "Please Mr Postman"! Hard to believe they never put an LP/CD out on it(unless someone knows different; if they do please let me know!)....why, damm it, why??

By Scratcher (65.134.147.208) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 06:34 pm:

Yea Kevin, but only if you remove the music. The track is too sophisticated for doo wop.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 06:42 pm:

BUT KEV: OBVIOUSLY...IF BERRY WANTED THAT "DOO-WOP" SOUND AT MOTOWN...HE WOULD HAVE MADE "IWALICS" AN *A* SIDE!!!...IF BERRY WANTED A "SOUTHERN" SOUL SOUND AT MOTOWN...WILSON PICKETT...NOT MARVIN GAYE... WOULD HAVE BEEN THEIR ACE MALE SOLO STAR!!!...STU(TRYIN TO SEE THE LIGHT)BASS

By Scratcher (65.134.147.208) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:01 pm:

Stu, "I Want a Love I Can See" was the A-Side. It was a popular soul record in the cities that played it. It was the Temptations fifth single, including the one as the Pirates, and the first one I heard on the radio. Some of their earlier ones were played on a limited basis but I don't remember hearing them.

I don't think the song is doo wop as it is. I'll only concede that point if you take away the track. Remove the music and picture the Temptations singing it at a slower pace, then it could be doo wop.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

SCRATCHER: WHAT WAS THE FLIP SIDE???...I KNOW THAT IT WAS ON THE "MEET THE TEMPTATIONS" ALBUM...BUT DID NOT REALIZE THAT IT WAS RELEASED AS AN "A" SIDE!!!...STU

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

SCRATCHER: WHAT WAS THE FLIP SIDE???...I KNOW THAT IT WAS ON THE "MEET THE TEMPTATIONS" ALBUM...BUT DID NOT REALIZE THAT IT WAS RELEASED AS AN "A" SIDE!!!...STU

By Scratcher (65.134.147.208) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

"The Further You Look The Less You See."

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:28 pm:

THANKS FOR THE INFO SCRATCHER!!!...I STAND CORRECTED!!!...DOES THIS MEAN THAT WILSON PICKETT NEVER HAD A CHANCE???...STU

By Scratcher (65.134.147.208) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:34 pm:

You got that right. Berry turned Wilson Pickett down when he could have signed him. Don't think Robert Bateman didn't show "If You Need Me" to Berry and Mickey Stevenson first. I always thought that was one of the reasons Bateman left Motown.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 01:51 pm:

Stu....
....this would bring up both the regionalism question and Barry's "vision" again, wouldn't it?

One of the definers of doo-wop for me is the tendency of the backround to mimic the insturmentalization of a backing band's rythem section, as opposed to just augmenting the lead singer. The Nylons' version of "Town Without Pity" (to use a recent refrence) highlites this to me, something I don't really hear in groups like the Temps or the Tops, who made an evolutionary step from the doo-wop sound.
Two Barbara Lewis (?) songs that use both styles come to mind here. "Hello Stranger" (more doo-wopish) and "Baby I'm Yours" (which sounds more "traditional" to me).

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:15 pm:

DOUG: IN THE CASE OF WILSON PICKETT...I'M CONVINCED THAT BERRY THOUGHT THAT WILSON JUST SOUNDED TOO "ETHNIC" FOR THE SOUND AND IMAGE THAT HE WAS TRYING TO CREATE!!!...SAME WITH THE COUNTOURS...AS WE'VE DISCUSSED BEFORE!!!..BERRY HAD A VISION...AND THAT VISION DID NOT INCLUDE THE STEREOTYPED MUSIC FROM THE PAST!!!...STU

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:33 pm:

Stu....
....I didn't mean to start another "Memphis vs. Motown" thread......

By Scratcher (65.132.79.9) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:34 pm:

Stu, I hear you and you're right to a point. But you must not be too familiar with the early Tamla/Motown recordings. Berry didn't decide to move away from doo wop, blues and R&B until around 1963. And he didn't start Tamla Records with any visions of moving away from the older sounds.

Berry Gordy was the main producer and writer for the Contours. Have you heard their stuff on Motown before they were switched to Gordy, songs like "Funny"? They're straight doo wop. Are you familiar with the Satintones, Henry Lumpkin, Herman Griffin, Sammy Ward, Hattie Littles and so many other early Tamla/Motown artists?

Berry declined on Wilson Pickett but I don't think it had anything to do with Wilson's singing style, not at that time. There were other factors involved including, no doubt, Pickett's volatile personality.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:35 pm:

DOUG: I THINK THAT THIS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME A BERRY VS. "ETHNICITY" THREAD!!!...STU

By Jim Dunn (24.46.200.124) on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 03:37 pm:

Doug,

I don't know the Nylons version of "Town Without Pity" but normally the Nylons perform acappella. When you're performing without instruments, the voices typically have to do more to make the song work. As a singer/arranger in an acappella group, I've had to take that into account in choosing material. Some songs just don't work real well without the instrumentation. In the primary days of doo-wop, many of the songs originated with the groups and came to life in acappella format. If they were fortunate enough to get recorded the instruments were tagged on, and usually figured less prominently in the overall arrangement. With a group like the Diablos, who had their own guitarist, you can here a big difference, where the guitar became an important part of the mix. And by the time Motown was in full swing, the instrumental arrangements were much more dominant, and the vocals likewise developed differently because of the greater focus on the underlying instrumenation.

Jim

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:09 am:

Didn't the whole industry largely move away from the fifties doo-wop sound at the same time, and not just Motown? Music just simply evolved IMO.

I think that ballad-wise, 50's doo wop has Motown beat by a great margin. Which do you think could get the panties off faster? (I wanna know from you '50's and '60's players! Sorry if I offended anyone!)

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:12 am:

I wanna hear some testimonies!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 01:25 am:

JULIAN: SORRY TO INFORM YOU MY FRIEND...BUT IF YOU CHECK OUT BIRTHS TO UNWED MOTHERS DURING THE 50'S AND 60'S...I THINK YOU'LL SEE AN ENORMOUS INCREASE DURING THE MOTOWN ERA...OVER THE DOO-WOP PERIOD OF THE 50'S!!!...STU

By Julian (152.163.252.68) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:02 am:

Hahaha!!!

By R&B (138.238.41.118) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 08:46 am:

HEY JULIAN,IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DOOWOP IN IT NATURAL STREETCORNER FORM,OF COURSE MOTOWN COULDN'T TOUCH IT BUT WE ALL KNOW WHAT BERRY DID,HE PUT DOOWOP AND BLUES IN A BIG POT ADDES SOME MORE INGREDIENTS AND GAVE US THE SOUND OF YOUNG AMERICA!

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:00 am:

I don't think Berry eschewed Doo Wop because it was race music. I think he embraced it because it was an early sign of crossover success in youth music. Both white and black groups were having both R&B and Pop hits. There's a reason that one of the first Miracles records was an answer to "Get a Job". It was definitely part of the mix in the early days, although by no means the whole story.

Regards,
Ken

By Davie Gordon (193.122.21.34) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:53 am:

Ken,

Don't know if I agree with you about doowop being "race music". I'll grant you that immediate
forerunners of what become doowop, the Ravens,
Orioles etc. were black but by the late fifties
there were as many white doo-woppers as black.

I'd agree that the black audience had left doowop behind by the early sixties when the doowop
revival groups were almost exclusively white.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:13 pm:

Davie,
If you thought that's what I meant, then I don't agree with me either. Stu mentioned Berry staying away from "Race Music" and "Doo-Wop type music", I mushed his statement together in my head and it came out wrong in my post. My brain must not have been processing capital letters properly this morning.

Sorry.

Regards,
Ken

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:24 pm:

HEY KEN AND DAVIE: I STILL BELIEVE THAT BERRY GORDY SOUGHT TO STEER CLEAR OF *BOTH* "RACE MUSIC" AND "DOO-WOP"...PERHAPS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. I BELIEVE THAT BERRY WAS TRYING TO CREATE A *NEW* SOUND...AND WHILE DOO-WOP FIT IN DURING THE EARLY DAYS AS HE WAS TRYING TO GET ESTABLISHED...IT WAS CLEARLY NOT HIS INTENTION TO BECOME A DOO-WOP LABEL AS HE EVENTUALLY CREATED *HIS* NEW SOUND!!!...AS FOR THE "RACE MUSIC" ASPECT...BERRY CERTAINLY REALIZED THAT PRODUCING "ETHNIC" MUSIC...WOULD SEVERLY LIMIT HIS DESIRE TO DRAW A WIDER AND MORE VARIED AUDIENCE...AS SOCIETY IN GENERAL...PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTH...WAS BECOMING MUCH MORE ACCEPTING OF BLACK ARTISTS IN THE MAINSTREAM...THUS...BERRY DARED TO PRODUCED WHAT HE ENVISIONED!!!...STU

By Scratcher (65.132.79.233) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:52 pm:

What he envisioned, howabout what Holland, Dozier and Holland brought to table, which the Funk Brothers executed? Berry's productions were some of the oldest sounding productions coming out of Motown at the time.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

TRUE ENOUGH SCRATCHER...BUT BERRY WAS THE BOSS...AND *NOTHING* WAS GONNA GET PRODUCED AT MOTOWN WITHOUT BERRYS STAMP OF APPROVAL...BE IT HDH...SMOKEY...OR ANYONE ELSE!!!...

By Scratcher (65.132.79.233) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 03:09 pm:

Yea Stu, but my point is he didn't have this vision when he started Tamla, the sound that became successful resulted from trial and error. Berry had it over must companies in that he had his own studio, and lived where the studio was; he didn't have to watch the clock, and could record stuff over if he didn't get it right the first time. When you're paying for studio time you pretty much try to do everything in the block of studio time you're paying for. On different occasions Berry recorded and released records that he went back, recorded over, and released again. Other companies never did that.

By Julian (152.163.252.68) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:31 am:

Regarding BG's productions - they do have that old school sound (even older school now!). They were good, but you can still tell that an old school cat did 'em. But they were good.
When you listen to "Try It, Baby," you can tell an ol' suga daddy wrote it! "Camouflage" is another story, though. Especially the later version.

"Camouflage" almost seems like a Smokey song. You thin BG and Smokey developed some sort of musical "mind link" where one could become the other musically? (haha)

I still think Motown's sound just evolved at the same time for the same reasons everyone else's did. There are virtually no big doo woppy hits from any label from like after '62 until the late '60's around when "Thin Line Between Love And Hate" and the Originals and stuff like that began coming out again. Seems the style was revisited for a moment.
Correct me if I'm wrong about after '62 and just before 70's. I know I wasn't there. Just "observation, baby" (thanks Sam!)!